OPS Qual Approvals

[Billy009]

Does anyone know who at the Wing level approves completed ES OPS Quals such as MO, AP, etc? There are a few members that have completed their qualifications in the past, including mine (currently), and get hung up for quite a while before getting approved by Wing. I've seen several months. Having recently completed and entered all MO and AP into e-services (Qualifications all green), not sure how long of a wait it will be until actually approved. 

[JeffDG]

Does anyone know who at the Wing level approves completed ES OPS Quals such as MO, AP, etc? There are a few members that have completed their qualifications in the past, including mine (currently), and get hung up for quite a while before getting approved by Wing. I've seen several months. Having recently completed and entered all MO and AP into e-services (Qualifications all green), not sure how long of a wait it will be until actually approved.

List might be incomplete, but the approvers generally are:

DO
DOS
DOST
CV
CC

Also, be aware that sometimes there are informal agreements among these folks about who approves what.  For example, I'm the wing ES Training Officer (DOST), however, the asst-DOST is much more familiar with ground operations, so he reviews all ground qualifications and approves/disapproves them (I'll disapprove anything that's documentarily insufficient, but he looks at everything before approval).  The DO, CC and CV generally leave them alone, leaving the DOS and I to look at all the air/staff qualifications...unless something's funky, it's pretty rare that something sits more than a week for us.  Where the CC/CV/DO will go in is if a qualification sits for much more than a couple weeks without anything done to them.

[Billy009]

That makes sense. Thank you. Unfortunately, our (anonymous) wing allows such things to sit for a very long time. Bummer.

[Billy009]

Also, I appreciate that you guys handle things in a timely manner. I'm sure your squadron members appreciate it.

[Storm Chaser]

You may want to check with your wing. While anyone with a "C" or "DO" in front of they're office symbol have Ops Quals approval permissions, some wings designate specific individuals to do these approvals.

[JeffDG]

You may want to check with your wing. While anyone with a "C" or "DO" in front of they're office symbol have Ops Quals approval permissions, some wings designate specific individuals to do these approvals.

I don't think DOVs can approve ES quals...

[Storm Chaser]

You may want to check with your wing. While anyone with a "C" or "DO" in front of they're office symbol have Ops Quals approval permissions, some wings designate specific individuals to do these approvals.

I don't think DOVs can approve ES quals...

They shouldn't, but they do. Just like DOS have Ops Quals permissions to approve pilot stuff. Unlike Comm and Transportation, which are really separate modules with separate permissions in Ops Quals, ES, Ops and Stan/Eval all share the same permissions. That said, the commander determines who can approve what.

[Tim Medeiros]

The following have access to the approvals module of opsquals.  Note that comm folks only have access to the communications tab a logistics only have the drivers license tab.

Operations Qualifications
Approvals / Data-Entry / Operations
Commander, Communications Engineering Officer, Communications Licensing Officer, Communications Officer , Communications Training Officer, DCS Communications, DCS Emergency Services, DCS Logistics, DCS Operations, Deputy Commander, Deputy Commander for Seniors, Director of Communications, Director of Emergency Services, Director of Logistics, Director of Operations, Emergency Services Officer, Emergency Services Training Officer, Green Flag Chief Mission Coordinator, Green Flag Chief Sensor Operator, Green Flag Commander, Green Flag Director of Training, Green Flag National Coordinator, Green Flag National Director of Stan/Eval, Green Flag Stan/Eval East, Green Flag Stan/Eval West, Logistics Officer, Operations Officer, Standardization/Evaluation Officer, Transportation Officer, Vice Commander

[Billy009]

Thank you for your responses. Apparently, here it can be several months before they get to it even if all the info provided is correct. Does this mean that you're still in trainee status and technically not a qualified MO, AP, etc until they check it off?

[Eclipse]

Thank you for your responses. Apparently, here it can be several months before they get to it even if all the info provided is correct. Does this mean that you're still in trainee status and technically not a qualified MO, AP, etc until they check it off?

Correct, though most mission bases will accepted signed SQTRs when necessary.

The approval time should be hours not months.

[a2capt]

That sounds like a bunch of computerphobics, people still living in the paper age, are in charge .. ;-)

[Spaceman3750]

That sounds like a bunch of computerphobics, people still living in the paper age, are in charge .. ;-)

"Internet could be out at mission base, and we can't forget how to use paper, so you have to submit a CAPF 100 in triplicate via fax."

[Storm Chaser]

Thank you for your responses. Apparently, here it can be several months before they get to it even if all the info provided is correct. Does this mean that you're still in trainee status and technically not a qualified MO, AP, etc until they check it off?

Correct, though most mission bases will accepted signed SQTRs when necessary.

The approval time should be hours days not months.

I fixed that for you. While many approvers have the time and flexibility to constantly check Ops Quals for quals and achievements pending approval, we shouldn't expect volunteers to be in Ops Quals every few hours of every day. That said, it should never take more than a few days.

[Eclipse]

Sorry, if you want the job, do it. Checking eServices daily won't kill anyone.
That's why there are supposed to he deputies and staff.

[lordmonar]

Sorry, if you want the job, do it. Checking eServices daily won't kill anyone.
That's why there are supposed to he deputies and staff.

Who said anyone "wanted" the job? 
But point taken.   NO OPS QUAL request should take longer then a week to process.   Even if you check your E-services once a week.   If you can't do it that often....then you should have told them you just don't have the time to do the job.

[Storm Chaser]

Sorry, if you want the job, do it. Checking eServices daily won't kill anyone.
That's why there are supposed to he deputies and staff.

Cite please. Nowhere in the job description does it say you have to check Ops Quals every few hours as you suggested. Not everyone has the free time and flexibility you have. Waiting a day or two (not weeks or months) "won't kill anyone". 

[Eclipse]

Once a day is reasonable, that's not too much to ask of anyone.

It would be nice if the notification system worked for those kinds of things, but I found it was not consistent.
Some would notify, some wouldn't.

Also, if the lower echelons are doing their jobs properly, then the approval at the wing level should be quick,
and not require more then a once-over, yet sadly a lot of CCs just "click without reading" which means their stuff
gets put on the back-burner until the higher guys can address whatever the issue is.

[Tim Medeiros]

Once a day is reasonable, that's not too much to ask of anyone.

It would be nice if the notification system worked for those kinds of things, but I found it was not consistent.
Some would notify, some wouldn't.

Also, if the lower echelons are doing their jobs properly, then the approval at the wing level should be quick,
and not require more then a once-over, yet sadly a lot of CCs just "click without reading" which means their stuff
gets put on the back-burner until the higher guys can address whatever the issue is.

Do you have a number of examples of things that notified and things that didn't?  (Specifically speaking to OpsQuals)  If I can get a listing by the next meeting I have with NHQ/IT I'll bring it up.

[MajorM]

To the original poster... If it's been a reasonable period of time you can always follow up with an email.  They can always ignore your email, but at least it's an attempt.

[Eclipse]

Once a day is reasonable, that's not too much to ask of anyone.

It would be nice if the notification system worked for those kinds of things, but I found it was not consistent.
Some would notify, some wouldn't.

Also, if the lower echelons are doing their jobs properly, then the approval at the wing level should be quick,
and not require more then a once-over, yet sadly a lot of CCs just "click without reading" which means their stuff
gets put on the back-burner until the higher guys can address whatever the issue is.

Do you have a number of examples of things that notified and things that didn't?  (Specifically speaking to OpsQuals)  If I can get a listing by the next meeting I have with NHQ/IT I'll bring it up.

Unfortunately I don't - not really the kind of thing one keeps notes on.

[Billy009]

Well, I was able to determine who the person at Wing is that approves ops quals and sent a kind email requesting to take a look at my sqtrs if it wouldn't be too much trouble. The individual was kind enough to reply the following morning indicating that they would take a look at it and get back to me. That was a couple days ago. We'll see. It is a holiday weekend though and perhaps they are busy or on vacation or something.

I've only been in CAP for one year now and completed MO and AP last week. I heard from a couple others that it could be a long time (even months) until Wing approved it. One poor guy in my squadron waited 3 months before Wing looked at his sqtr's. Then suddenly he found it approved one day. When I heard all this, it kind of let the wind out of my sails because I worked hard to accomplish all these qualifications (not a pilot - zero exposure to aviation until now). It was a "proud of myself" moment. However, I'm just being selfish here because I have no idea whatsoever what Wing command has to deal with.

I appreciate all your replies and comments. Best wishes.

[Storm Chaser]

It should never take months. Your commander needs to address this through the chain of command.

[Eclipse]

It should never take months. Your commander needs to address this through the chain of command.

+1 - in the time it took to reply to the email he should have just approved or denied it, and
since it's already been approved by at least one, possibly two other levels, it should have taken about
1-5 minutes to vet.

[MacGruff]

When I completed my last bit of training for the MO qualification it took about 3 days for it to appear in e-services. This requires approval through Wing level. I did not have to remind anyone.

Separately, I looked to see what the process is for getting permission to wear the wings. That was a separate process, also needing approval at Wing level and also took a few days.

Both were reasonable in terms of waiting to see the new shiny qualifications recognized in the system.

Anything more than a week and I would start going up the chain of command asking questions.

[Billy009]

Well, Wing approved my AP but left the MO alone. I emailed back to inquire. He said that because they are not familiar with the trainers and qualifiers, that I would need to re-qualify with Wing. However, this person from Wing promoted the mission aircrew school that I attended and got all my qualifications. I really don't understand all this. I emailed my squadron commander the trail of emails and he got involved. He sent this person from Wing an email detailing what I just mentioned above and essentially asking, what gives? Apparently they will be seeing one another at a commanders call this weekend. We shall see.

If Wing does this for MO's and MP's for the sake of added proficiency, I understand up to a point. The thing is, I took several days off of work and paid money, and rented a car to go to MAS, which again, was promoted by this person from Wing in the first place. Had I known all this, I would not have gone through MAS and just via the monthly Sarex's since I have to do this again anyway. It's like, they promoted something that was deceiving. I really don't think this was done intentionally, I'm sure his motives were good, but I hope he can one day see this from the perspective of the member trying to learn.

One question, is it the intention that once you get approval for the MO SQTR qualifications to be proficient with all of them? For example, it says "operate the GPS." Well, I certainly operated it several times, but still not proficient with the Apollo gx55. If I'm supposed to be proficient in every area, I wish it would indicate such on the SQTR. Another one days to "operate the VOR." Well, I operated it and understand the basics, but I cannot say that I'm proficient at it.

Well, I certainly appreciate  cap talk for the opportunity to learn , express, and vent simultaneously while remaining out of the circle if you will. Thank you.

[Eclipse]

CAP is a >national< program, with a >national< curriculum and anyone appointed as an SET is supposed to
be accepted anywhere.

We made the decision day one that if NHQ is comfortable allowing for that, where does any one wing get
off making up extra hoops and hurdles just to propagate "not invented here".

You should have a direct chat with the commanders involved.

[Spaceman3750]

Are we talking about NESA MAS? If they work like GSAR your qual should have lit up automatically.

[Eclipse]

One question, is it the intention that once you get approval for the MO SQTR qualifications to be proficient with all of them? For example, it says "operate the GPS." Well, I certainly operated it several times, but still not proficient with the Apollo gx55. If I'm supposed to be proficient in every area, I wish it would indicate such on the SQTR. Another one days to "operate the VOR." Well, I operated it and understand the basics, but I cannot say that I'm proficient at it.

No - basic understanding and demonstrating ability is the requirement.  Proficiency comes with practice, that's why you continue
with training and SARExs after getting the ticket punched.

Some Wings have 2-3 different comm panels and other variants to deal with, in those cases "proficiency" is a challenge, to say the least.

The important thing is to operate within your limits and ask for help when you're in the weeds.  No one can know everything, but
someone will know what you need.  What you don't want is to be pretending you can operate something you don't have a handle on
and wasting a lot of time or worse, risk someone's life instead of just asking for help.   BTDT.

[Billy009]

This was a regional MAS using the NESA curriculum. To be honest, I'd be quite intimidated to have that kind of conversation with this Wing Commander out of respect, considering I'm a one year low ranked officer that has no clout whatsoever. I doubt it would make a difference anyway because it appears this is just how they do things in this Wing.

If they want me to remain in trainee status for a few months and gain more experience by participating in SAREX's that's one thing. It seems like that's outside of the NHQ model, but whatever, it is what it is. However, asking me to re-qualify all over again with Wing people when I attended the MAS that he promoted is another issue entirely. That's my biggest hangup here. My initial inquiry was to determine if this was the norm. Either way, I have no other choice but to accept it.

Anyway, my Squadron Commander will be asking him about it this weekend during their Commanders call so we'll see what happens. I really don't think anything is going to change. It's unfortunate, but I love the Civil Air Patrol and love being a little part of the US Air Force. It feels like I'm serving my country and receive a sense of honor from that so I'll accept whatever happens. Though it may not seem fair, it is truly a privilege to be here.

Take care friends.   

[Eclipse]

Your call as to how hard to push, but if the sign offs were done by properly approved SETs, no
Wing CC should be negating those sign offs.  When that starts, the whole system breaks down, a
and we might as well not have a national curriculum.

Respect goes both ways, your time isn't free, and there shouldn't be special rules, especially if you're
being encouraged to participate.

You're right in who should address it, your unit / group CC has that charge.

[Billy009]

FYI on something I just found online:
http://www.caprcs.org/Cadets/Emergency%20Services%20Online%20Made%20Easy!.pdf


Once submitted your item will appear yellow until
validated
. Once validated it will immediately appear green. If
the item is disapproved it will appear red and
you will
receive
an email and your primary email (as entered on
eServices) explaining by who and why.

Note:
Do this within 24hrs of begin evaluated otherwise your evaluator may deny your validation.
It is not uncommon however for higher echelon approval to take several weeks, do your part to ensure your documentation
is always attached if needed.
YOU MUST ATTACH THE SIGNED SQTR WHEN SEEKING VALIDATION FOR A MISSION PARTICIPATION.
TIP:
Check immediately after submitting something that it changes color, if there is no color change you did not submit it
properly.
Email your evaluator
(using the chain of comman
d)
if you have been waiting more than two weeks.

[JeffDG]

Good lord.

Now, every task is sent to the SET for validation online.  The paper signed SQTR is an anachronism.

[Eclipse]

Good lord.

Now, every task is sent to the SET for validation online.  The paper signed SQTR is an anachronism.

I would agree, except for the high-level of computer phobia still rampant in CAP, especially
amongst the older members who are likely to make  up a good chunk of the SETs.

How does a cadet 2 groups over remember the CAPID if the SET for GT3?

What if the SET indicates he's "never heard of you", etc., etc.

If you're talking about attentive A-Teamers signing off things in real time, sure, ditch the paper,
but as we're reminded painfully here on a regular basis, connectivity is not ubiquitous and
people have "better things to do with their time then be signing into eServices..."

[rustyjeeper]

CAP is a >national< program, with a >national< curriculum and anyone appointed as an SET is supposed to
be accepted anywhere.

We made the decision day one that if NHQ is comfortable allowing for that, where does any one wing get
off making up extra hoops and hurdles just to propagate "not invented here".

You should have a direct chat with the commanders involved.

That is how it is SUPPOSED TO WORK. It does not.
At least not in Massachusetts where "the standards are higher"

[Eclipse]

That is how it is SUPPOSED TO WORK. It does not.
At least not in Massachusetts where "the standards are higher"

Which is why we have regs and IGs.

[Billy009]

This just in...

The powers that be in this wing (which I've kept anonymous) is adding an additional step. They want to meet every individual that has completed their SQTR qualifications and essentially quiz them (grill them) in person on their training to ensure proficiency prior to granting wing approval. Apparently there has been concern for quite some time that members were being fast tracked in without enough knowledge. So.....that's the deal. Proficiency now has to be attained prior to approval. Now, let's see how long it actually takes to meet with the appropriate individual/s. I'm guessing two months at the very least. Then probably more time for them to "get back to you" on their decision.

Had I known all this, I would have gone about it much differently. Personally, I would not have attended a mission aircrew school. Going to SAREX's and learning one on one from experienced members would have been much easier logistically, less time away from work and home, and better to learn retain. A friend of mine in CAP tried telling me this but I didn't listen.

If anything, this experience has given me some CAP "street smarts." I intend on sharing my experiences with new members and hopefully spare them the same trouble.

[Eclipse]

^ ^ ^

Which is why we have regs and IGs.

There is some small leeway in the regs to allow retesting when members come from another wing, beyond
that, I would be very curious under what authority and supplement these extras tests are being run.

There are only two options here:

1) You accept the integrity and ability of the SETs who have certified the training and tasks.

2) You question the integrity and ability of those SETs officially, bounce the sign offs they have validated,
and remove them from their SET status.

Are we talking about SETs from the same wing or from a different wing?

Absent a supplement, the wing can disapprove a given sign-off based on an integrity or ability issue,
or suspend a member for failure to perform properly (pending remediation), but they can't simply
say "we want more missions and training", nor can they disallow a validation from another wing
solely on the basis of that evaluator not being local.

[Spaceman3750]

Fast tracking issues are fixed with the evaluators not the candidates. Issues with skill level should either be resolved by the evaluator or mission credit withheld by said evaluator.

It's a wonder that we actually accomplish anything in this organization, we're way too busy tripping over ourselves in the name of "quality". File an IG complaint. The ESO won't like you for it but it sounds like he's setting up a fiefdom that needs some outside light anyways.

That said, I was required to complete the same "interview" for my GTL because the wing ESO at the time didn't like me, it can be hard to rock the boat as a new member if that's not your personality.

[husker]

What Wing is this occurring in?

[Billy009]

Husker,
Know that I recognize and respect your credentials. Actually, it feels like an honor to connect with you. However, I'd prefer not to disclose the Wing's state as this would turn all my questions and comments into gossip. Also, I wouldn't like to be remembered as a Cindy Brady. I may not like the position I'm in, but have no other choice than to accept it. I hope you understand.

Spaceman,
I hear ya, this "interview" is going to be quite intimidating. I don't mind rocking the boat, but don't feel it is appropriate to do so in this organization considering my time in service and grade.

Eclipse,
There was one SET from another wing that evaluated me when I attended the regions MAS, the other was from my wing. The fact that there is hesitation over this one SET from another wing confuses the heck out of me because again, the individual causing all of this right now is the very one that promoted attendance to the regions MAS. I have a feeling it is me they are concerned with. I am not a pilot, with no prior knowledge in aviation. There's no question that I'm not proficient in all areas of the sqtr for MO. Prior to joining CAP, an aeronautical chart was like a foreign language to me. I'm happy to say that's no longer the case though. :-)

[Eclipse]

However, I'd prefer not to disclose the Wing's state as this would turn all my questions and comments into gossip.

It took one click to find your wing, you're not anonymous.

Eclipse,
There was one SET from another wing that evaluated me when I attended the regions MAS, the other was from my wing. The fact that there is hesitation over this one SET from another wing confuses the heck out of me because again, the individual causing all of this right now is the very one that promoted attendance to the regions MAS. I have a feeling it is me they are concerned with. I am not a pilot, with no prior knowledge in aviation. There's no question that I'm not proficient in all areas of the sqtr for MO. Prior to joining CAP, an aeronautical chart was like a foreign language to me. I'm happy to say that's no longer the case though. :-)

The bottom line is you either completed the tasks or you didn't.  If you did, then you're done.
A Region school should have properly echeloned SETs to negate this discussion.
Perhaps a conversation with the Region ESO is in order to adjust some attitudes.

[Billy009]

I can't see how, I haven't entered any personal info into my profile.

[Eclipse]

Email address.

[Storm Chaser]

I was also able to find your name, wing and unit just by looking at your e-mail address. You may want to make that private or get a difference address.

[Billy009]

Crap.

Well, too late now. 

[Garibaldi]

Crap.

Well, too late now. 

Spam bombs in 3....2....

[Panache]

Crap.

Well, too late now. 

I noticed, in your SQTRs, that there is no mission number attached to your MO submission.  Maybe that is why Wing is not approving.

[Billy009]

That part is strange. I entered them all for AP and MO and it went through. Once the quals lit up yellow, they didn't show the mission #'s. The SET's approved them all. Either way, they're all there in the upload.