Do looks count in ES?

[Stonewall]

Specifically for ground teams since we are on the ground, in the publics' eye, and readily seen by media.

Do looks count?

In Virginia (National Capital Wing) I trained with and worked with several state volunteer SAR groups.  Great people and well trained.  While they certainly didn't have any type of standard uniform, they all seemed to wear orange shirts with some sort of SAR School, SAR Conference or SAR Competition on it.

But in CAP, a paramilitary organization, we have uniforms.  Whether it be BDUs or the BBDUs, its a uniform and there are standards that we are REQUIRED to adhere to while wearing said uniforms.  Whether you like or not, or whether you follows those regs or not, theoretically you're supposed to wear the uniform IAW CAPM 39-1.


These guys look fine.  With little knowledge of SAR, most people would probably say they're some sort of rescue group.

But look at us.

Minus the "faddish" sunglasses, there really isn't too much wrong with this picture.  In fact, I'm quite impressed with the fact that they have matching orange vests on.  Thats something I did at my last squadron, we bought the same vest for everyone so we'd be uni-form.  But what would the average person not knowing what CAP is think of these two cadets?

Its kind of hard to call ourselves professionals when we've got 15 year old cadets as part of our teams.  Granted you can have two 15 year olds and one acts like an adult while the other should still be wearing diapers.  That being said, I'm a true believer in involving cadets in Emergency Services at all levels, especially ground teams.

If you took a typical Army platoon and put them out in the field looking for a missing boy, they'd be wearing what?  Standard BDUs (ACUs now) and their version of 24 hr gear, be it an LBV old school LBE or whatever.  But in CAP, we have tons of different mixes of gear.  Some military, some civilian gear made specifically for SAR, some black tac vests, and some with a Kmart poncho wrapped around their sleeping bag tied to their pistol belt that keeps falling off every 5 minutes.

My point is that during ground SAR operations, we tend to transform from a paramilitary group into a hey, just show up with whatever you got group.  Some may say there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.  I say there is.

As ground team leader, deputy commander for cadets, and former squadron commander, we set standards for gear.  It was easy.  We coordinated with the local military surplus as well as one down at Ft. Bragg to give us one heckuva discount on your standard LBE with buttpack and if the cadets could afford it, they'd get a rucksack with frame.  All for under $100.  Durable, inexpensive, effective, practical, and best of all, uniform.

Taking an outside look into our organization as it relates to SAR, I could see how people would be reluctant to take us seriously when they see 2 adults and a handful of cadets from 4 1/2 feet tall to 6 ft 4 inches.  So I think it is in our best interest to guide our young storm troopers the best we can and NOT make it okay for them to buy whatever gear they want, but set some sort of standard.  Work with them.  It worked for us for years.  No one ever showed up with the black SWAT vest from Blackhawk Industries.  It was great.  From standard web gear (LBE) to the same orange vests, worn in the same manner, I believe that we can wear our uniforms properly, abide by CAPM 39-1, be an effective SAR team, and represent ourselves to the highest degree.

Call this a rant, thats fine with me.  I work night shift and can't sleep.  No need to reply, but I welcome comments and feedback.  Call me crazy, but I think this small aspect of CAP uniformity is important for our image.

[CAP428]

So I think it is in our best interest to guide our young storm troopers the best we can and NOT make it okay for them to buy whatever gear they want, but set some sort of standard.  Work with them. 

The same can be said for seniors.

But there's not a lot we can do, being a volunteer force.  We can mandate color of items, etc to attempt a more uniform appearance, but when it comes to mandating specific equipment it becomes more complicated, since cost will doubtlessly enter the picture.

[DNall]

CAP is tough w/o issued gear, yeah. There's even a lot of flexibility built into what gear you should have inside that pack. I think mandating colors & statng a basic loadout & wg supplements on specialized additional gear required. A set of recommendations on what we'd like you to use based mostly on what's standard in surplus at the time.... I think that's about as far as you can go w/o having a basic issue.

[Stonewall]

We never had to worry about senior members for the most part, we were all "gear queers" and enjoyed sporting standard military gear.  If not "standard" at least it was OD green. 

Something I did for cadets though, was with the ES availability sheet to be filled out by their parents, I actually sent out a paper with a diagram/picture of what gear they should buy if they so choose to do so on their own.  Right out of an Army field manual, you'd see standard LBE set up, ruck sack and frame.  It also listed places they could purchase them from.  In a way, we just didn't make them aware that there was anything else they could buy. 

What if a cadet showed up with a Jansport school backpack and a fanny pack?  Well, not much we could do, we'd lett'em wear it.  But usually when that one cadet saw 15 others all looking the same, they'd get the hint.  Chances are they weren't one of the ES focused cadets so it never became an issue.

That being said, another great thing we did was buy 5 sets of gear.  Well, we either bought it, had it donated by one of us gear hounds from our personal supply, got it from the wing warehouse or DRMO.

5 sets of squadron gear that could be signed out the meeting prior to the ES activity.

1 LBE
2 Canteens
2 Ammo (utility) cases
1 Buttpack
1 Compass pouch with compass

1 Medium rucksack with frame
1 Sleeping bag, Army issue mummy style
1 Military issue poncho

Think we got them all for a total of $300, which is a steal.

Like most things in CAP, once myself and some other key personnel left key positions for other things (I took command of another squadron), those great ideas and gear somehow got lost.  Another topic we could discuss, how squadrons go up and down due to a change in leadership.  But that's for another day.

[Stonewall]

I hate to use this picture because myself and another member are wearing boonie caps for a reason I can't describe, because I NEVER wear one, but can you see how everyone looks the same.  And regardless of age or cadet size, the uniformity brings out the professional look a bit more than a mix-match of gear.  Ignore the boonies!

The fact that its a B&W photo doesn't hurt either.  I love B&W photos for CAP, takes away the christmas tree affect.



A photo of a new senior member making use of the squadron's issued gear.  Here he was training along side of the cadets who were out in the field for the first time.


An example of some Virginia Wing members who trained with my squadron.  I ALWAYS invited other local units.  But check out the difference in gear/uniforms.


Again, here is a group of cadets in the field.  Notice, one guy on the right does have an LBV (vest) vs standard LBE.  But thats fine by me since it was "standard issue".  I think it presents an equally professional appearance.


Another B&W photo, this one even more difficult to see.  But I think it still demonstrates uniformity in the field.

[mikeylikey]

I used to frequent the DRMO, load up on crap loads of gear, and get every single member within a 200 mile radius the minimum junk they needed.  More than that, they got things that were way beyond "the minimums".  There is no reason that CAP members have to be dropping $$ on basic issue items.  IF they are, then your Group, Wing and Region Logistic guys are stinking!  In fact I would have to also say that if you are not getting equipment, then  your CAP-USAF LO and LG guys are stinking too!

CALL CAP-USAF region office and see what the say is on them screening equipment for you.  If you have trouble, call the Wing LG and tell him OR her to get their but in gear and do their job.  I have met a few that hold that position "JUST TO HOLD THAT POSITION". 

Also, start "spying" on local units!  Check out what they have, and if they have some good stuff, offer to begin trades, or a the very minimum borrow what you need from what they have multitudes of.  I always hated walking into a Squadron that had closets and rooms full of gear that looked like it had been sitting there for 10 years!

[Flying Pig]

Stonewall.....I see youve been surfing my Depts web site!

[Stonewall]

Stonewall.....I see youve been surfing my Depts web site!

How so? 

[Flying Pig]

In your origional post, the guys in the orange. They are member of Fresno County Sheriff's SAR on a Training mission in the Kaiser Wilderness.  I know everyone in that photo. The photo is also on our website.

[Stonewall]

Gotcha 

Had no idea really, just did google image search for "volunteer search and rescue" so I could use a picture just like that as an example.  Good thing I didn't say anything badge about'em  :angel:

Honestly though, they do look just like all the different SAR volunteer types I worked with in Virginia. 

[Flying Pig]

Our SAR is about 20 people.  On missions they wear the orange shirts and tan pants. Unless its winter they have red jackets.   Our team is all sworn Deputies.

[Flying Pig]

But, to add to your question.  I think looks are very important.  It can really display professionalism or without it, give people the impression you are just disorganized group.  A standard uniform brings with it at least some expectation of training and discipline.

[Stonewall]

A standard uniform brings with it at least some expectation of training and discipline.

It proably would have been easier for me to sum up my whole rant up above with this one statement.  But I enjoyed writing it anyway 

Excellent point.

[sardak]

These guys look fine.  With little knowledge of SAR, most people would probably say they're some sort of rescue group.

And they managed to achieve that look without a 130 page uniform manual which has 7 change letters and additional recently made, "unpublished" changes. 

Their uniform policies and procedures probably aren't more than a couple of pages, if that long.

Mike

[Stonewall]

I agree that there have been too many crazy uniforms changes in the last year, but unlike that SAR team with the Sherrif's Department, we're obligated to maintain a proper uniform.

Like it or not, that's what we do and those are the rules we're governed by.  Only addition to our uniform is gear, that we generally purchase ourselves and an orange vest.

And that is my point.  I've always tried to maintain a sense of uniformity among my cadets and seniors as it relates to ground operations.  If we can get everyone's gear to look alike and get everyone to wear the same orange vests, maybe even put a unit number on them, then we can continue with a look of military professionalism.

Regardless of the uniform changes at NHQ, they really don't affect ground operations.  A flag here, a wing patch there, throw some rank on your hat; its a change, but its a change in the uniform whether you're doing ES work or not.

A quote from something I wrote almost 10 years ago for the "CAP Officer" then revised it for a "CadetStuff" feature: Personal Views and Experiences in Creating a Successful Composite Squadron

exerpt
2.  Looks count! Do everything within your power to make yourself look good; like a professional. Then, do everything you can to make your squadron members look good --just like you. DO NOT allow members of your squadron to get away with anything like wearing part of a uniform or a uniform without proper insignia. No matter how much that person wants to go on that mission or help out at a recruiting drive, they'll only make you look bad. I believe that CAP offers too many patches to choose from for our uniforms. Use good judgment on this one. There is no need to wear the ES (Pluto) patch if you wear a GTM badge. My "looks count" tenant goes for vehicles, ES equipment, and airplanes as well. You are lucky to have a CAP corporate vehicle so take care of it and keep it simple. Don't go crazy with decals and unneeded antennas. ES gear and equipment, keep that simple too. Use what you need and don't wear that [darn] knife upside down on your web gear. Do your best to keep from looking too "Hollywood". Don't have all those annoying bells and whistles dangling from your gear. You'll just make yourself look sloppy and unprofessional. About that CAP plane; it's not your plane, its CAP's, so leave it better than you found it. Clean out whatever you leave behind like fast food trash, and wash it if you got it dirty. Perhaps the most annoying thing is getting into a corporate vehicle and finding it without fuel. Don't let this happen!

3.  Uniformity goes along with being professional. We are the auxiliary of the US Air Force; the fourth leg that holds the Air Force high in the sky. Everyone looks the same or everyone looks bad. This means that either everyone wears their BDU sleeves down or no one wears them down. If your squadron has a squadron hat or T-shirt, then they all wear it or none at all. Enough said about that. And never, I mean never, wear just part of the uniform. If you're uncomfortable wearing the BDU top then take off the pants too, because you either wear all of it or none at all. Naturally if your unit is on a work detail in the dead of summer then take them off, everyone. But when you're in the public's eye, think 39-1. If your squadron designs a unit shirt, be sure to make it black so that when you wear it with your BDUs it meets CAP regulations. Grey looks cool, but you can't wear it with your BDUs.

[Dragoon]

Good comments. 

Uniformity in CAP, though is more complicated than "everyone in a uniform."

Everyone needs to be in the SAME uniform.  One guy in BDUs, on guy in Blue BDUs, on guy in a golf shirt and dockers......they may be "in uniform" but they are certainly not "uniform."

As long as USAF limits wear of USAF style uniforms to thin, clean shaven folks, we have perhaps three ways we can go to increase uniformity.

1.  Restrict ground teams to thin, clean shaven folks in woodland BDUs.

2.  Put all ground teams in Blue BDUs. (or some other standard, non USAF GT uniform)

3.  (the compromise) Put all cadets in woodland BDU, and all seniors in Blue BDU.


Otherwise, we'll still look a bit...rag tag.


Gear is another issue.  Truthfully, LBE isn't the best choice to carry the required items, unless you go back to the cumbersome butt-pack.  Ammo pouches and the like are just too small for some of the items.  Plus, many folks love to put their green LBE on top of the orange vest, blocking a lot of the vest from view.

A day pack works better.  It ain't  as cool looking, but it's cheaper than buying web gear and easier to standardize (at least color).

You could go with black (easy to obtain and standardize) or perhaps red (high vis and not all that hard)

But there's always the guy with the $300 super survival vest who wants to play with his toy....

[Stonewall]

I know my experiences may not be the norm, but believe it or not, I've never had a member of my ground team, cadet or senior, wear anything but BDUs.  We've had as many as 10 to 15 senior member qualified GTLs or higher and all met AF height and weight standards.  Lucky I guess.

I didn't want to debate whether or not military gear is better than civilian gear, that's for a different topic.  Feel free to start it.  But in 20 years, I've never once, EVER had a need for anything more than LBE (with buttpack) and maybe a "3-day pack".  And again, using standard military gear offers something civilian multi-colored gear can't offer, and that's uniformity.  Unless of course everyone buys the same SAR gear.  Military gear can come from former military members (dads, moms, brothers, friends), surplus stores, online gear companies, ebay, and of course, if you have the cash, brand new at the military clothing and sales store at your local army post.

As to a standard non-USAF utility uniform, I stand by my idea of EVERYONE cadets and seniors, wearing Olive Drab "jungle" fatigues.  Not the slant pocket ones, the straight pockets.  Basically BDUs but not camouflaged.  YMMV.

[RogueLeader]

A standard uniform brings with it at least some expectation of training and discipline.

As well as effectiveness, if they look like each other, and act together, the team, hopefully, would be more effective than John Doe and Jane Smith who had never met before in their life.

[Dragoon]

As to a standard non-USAF utility uniform, I stand by my idea of EVERYONE cadets and seniors, wearing Olive Drab "jungle" fatigues.  Not the slant pocket ones, the straight pockets.  Basically BDUs but not camouflaged.  YMMV.

If I was going to go with a non-USAF GT uniform, I'd just go with BDU pants, boots and an orange shirt.  Kind of what colorado and california have done from time to time in the past.

But it all goes to heck if the outer garments aren't standardized as well.

[Stonewall]

Remember, our utility uniform is not just for SAR and CAP is not only a SAR organziation.  Our BDUs are moreso a part of the Cadet Program than Emergency Services.  ES being 1/3 of the mission and not required participation for cadets.

I believe cadets should be encouraged to participate in Emergency Services operations at all levels, especially ground operations because not only is it beneficial to our community, state and nation, it is a vital part of learning leadership and responsibility.

[Dragoon]

Remember, our utility uniform is not just for SAR and CAP is not only a SAR organziation.  Our BDUs are moreso a part of the Cadet Program than Emergency Services.  ES being 1/3 of the mission and not required participation for cadets.

I believe cadets should be encouraged to participate in Emergency Services operations at all levels, especially ground operations because not only is it beneficial to our community, state and nation, it is a vital part of learning leadership and responsibility.

All the more reason, in the interests of the unique high visibility needs of SAR and the importance of uniformity during such operations, to put everyone in one suit for SAR, even if it's not the suit they wear for the other parts of CAP.

The advantage of the orange shirt kinda thing is that the additional expense is minimal - you get to reuse your pants and boots.  Lowering the bar for cadets who want to participate. 

[tribalelder]

YES ! Looks count.  The uniform is a tool than helps you do your job.

It's 2 AM, you are in front of a townhouse, 2 miles from a busy airport, waiting for the sheriff to arrive, before you start punching doorbells on an non-distress ELT that IS somewhere in the building.  

Be in uniform.  A REAL uniform, not a golf shirt -- unless you're wearing a reflectorized windbreaker w/CAP on the back.  Magnetic signs on the car help too.  

Nobody wants to do fund-raising for a memorial flight scholarship.

[sardak]

It's 2 AM, you are in front of a townhouse, 2 miles from a busy airport, waiting for the sheriff to arrive, before you start punching doorbells on an non-distress ELT that IS somewhere in the building. 

Be in uniform.

And in that situation, camo shouldn't be the uniform.

Mike

[Stonewall]

It's 2 AM, you are in front of a townhouse, 2 miles from a busy airport, waiting for the sheriff to arrive, before you start punching doorbells on an non-distress ELT that IS somewhere in the building. 

Be in uniform.

And in that situation, camo shouldn't be the uniform.

Mike

It is and never has been a problem.  I remember when the ranting and raving of orange vests came out because everyone was worried about being shot by a hunter.  If that's the real reason then I think its ridiculous.  Truth is, we do need to wear an orange vest out in the field when performing line searches and the like.  Or, of course, when out in a busy business area with cars moving around us as we search for whatever it is.

I have personally been to Washington DC, parts of Maryland, neighborhoods in Northern Virginia and parts in between, all at night, all housing or business districts knocking on doors past sun-down.

This is where a squared away GTL comes in.  First, hopefully you have more than 1 senior member on your ground team.  Second, if you're worth half your weight as a GTL you can pretty much narrow the signal down to at least one building/house, which should alleviate the need to go house to house.  Maybe at most, 3 houses.

One senior stays with the rest of the ground team and CAP van/personal vehicle.  Hopefully its a white CAP van with decal on it, maybe an amber light.  Park in a lighted area, then one senior and squared away troop (cadet or senior) start the doorbell ringing.  I've done it at least 5 or 6 times in 15 years of being in DC Wing.  Never once ran into a problem.

One episode in Silver Spring, MD ended up being a plumber who bought some sort of orange radio transmitter for $5 and threw it in his plumbing van.  We were in Front Royal, VA on a SAREX at about 2230 when we got the call.  Our 24 hr radio watch came in handy.  We packed up, at night, traveled down I-66 to I-495 into Maryland and had it shut off at the guy's house by like 00:30.

For another example, read the last paragraph in this 2003 article from the Fairfax Times .

[Dragoon]

Camo or blue or orange, it doesn't really matter.

From what I've witnessed, the key is for everyone to dress alike.  If everyone in a group looks the same, people tend make the assumption that they are professional team that knows what it's doing.  Unless they are all dressed in identical chicken costumes or somesuch.

Now, I would agree that my initial reaction to someone in BDUs knocking on my door would be a bit of apprehension, a professional demeanor and explanation would eliminate those fears quickly.  I doubt I'd be reaching for a gun or anything.

[sardak]

It's 2 AM, you are in front of a townhouse, 2 miles from a busy airport, waiting for the sheriff to arrive, before you start punching doorbells on an non-distress ELT that IS somewhere in the building. 

Be in uniform.

And in that situation, camo shouldn't be the uniform.

Mike

It is and never has been a problem.

There are non-camo uniform options.  Camo has been a problem in that the non-CAP observers of a scene have wondered who the people in camo are.   Why is the Army here?  Why is the SWAT team here?   Why are they wearing orange vests?  Traffic control?  Those are real comments.  I believe the issue of who we are in the eyes of the public is continually discussed on other threads.

From one of your earlier posts.

As to a standard non-USAF utility uniform, I stand by my idea of EVERYONE cadets and seniors, wearing Olive Drab "jungle" fatigues.  Not the slant pocket ones, the straight pockets.  Basically BDUs but not camouflaged.  YMMV.

I don't have a problem with that, though it wouldn't be my preference.  But why not camo?

I remember when the ranting and raving of orange vests came out because everyone was worried about being shot by a hunter.  If that's the real reason then I think its ridiculous.

Agree it shouldn't be, and I don't think it is.  Stats shows that the odds of being shot by a hunter are orders of magnitude lower than other issues facing ground teams. It's a matter of visibility to ourselves, other ground teams and aircrews.  Although, I have been on missions where CAP aircrews couldn't see a group of half dozen or more non-CAP ground team members wearing high visibility colors, and more than just vests.   Maybe the crew thought that it couldn't be a ground team because they were too easy to see.

Truth is, we do need to wear an orange vest out in the field when performing line searches and the like.

Because we're wearing camo, and the orange vest is recognition that camo isn't the right choice.  Even wearing the solid green (as you'd like) or blue (as we're authorized) is a problem for visibility.  In the days when we wore fatigues and then jungle fatigues, there was no policy to wear orange vests or any other high visibility clothing.  Those of us who wanted to be seen wore high visibility clothing because we recognized the need.

Park rangers and such wear greens, grays and browns to blend in with the environment.  Some law enforcement SAR teams do too for the same reason.  Other LE SAR teams, like the one you included in your initial post in this thread, and most (not all) non-LE SAR teams wear high visibility clothing to be seen.

Or, of course, when out in a busy business area with cars moving around us as we search for whatever it is.

I have personally been to Washington DC, parts of Maryland, neighborhoods in Northern Virginia and parts in between, all at night, all housing or business districts knocking on doors past sun-down.

I've done the same, but in the metro areas of the West Coast and Denver. 

I've never searched in camo and won't simply because camo was designed for a purpose and nothing we do on a CAP ground team meets that purpose.  When I need a uniform I have other choices.

From what I've witnessed, the key is for everyone to dress alike.  If everyone in a group looks the same, people tend make the assumption that they are professional team that knows what it's doing.  Unless they are all dressed in identical chicken costumes or some such.

Agree.

Mike

[Stonewall]

And in that situation, camo shouldn't be the uniform.

There are non-camo uniform options.  Camo has been a problem in that the non-CAP observers of a scene have wondered who the people in camo are.   Why is the Army here?  Why is the SWAT team here?   Why are they wearing orange vests?  Traffic control?  Those are real comments.  I believe the issue of who we are in the eyes of the public is continually discussed on other threads.

What CAP ground team leader allows ground team members to mill around in such a fashion that people have to ask a question.  And what is wrong with people asking that question anyway?  That's what a PAO is for.  No ma'am, the Army is not here, these are members of the Civil Air Patrol ground search team looking for the young child lost from yesterday.  Not to mention, since when does a 5' 0" cadet (read: kid) look like he's in the Army?  Is it that big of an issue that we get confused with the Army?  Does it even happen at all?  If so, who cares?

We wear camouflage because it's our CAP uniform.  Once again, Ground SAR is not a primary mission of CAP.  Emergency Services is only 1/3 of CAP's whole purpuse, and even ES has several different facets are.  BDUs are the perfect utility uniform.  Need to be seen?  Wear a vest, its required anyway.  Prior to BDUs we wore fatigues.  Why?  Because that is the uniform of choice afforded to us by the Air Force.  CAP is not a SAR organization, but if we were, then perhaps we should focus on a "SAR uniform".  But if we were solely a SAR organizaiton, I would suggest that a uniform not be worn at all, but what makes you comfortable and safe. 

I like the idea of the solid OD jungle fatigues because like standard BDUs, they are durable and equally functional.  They also carry with them a more military look that is needed by the cadet program.

High visibility clothing is not necessary for CAP, although very useful.  But CAP can continue wearing their BDUs and simply throw on a <$25 vest. 

You could be wearing a bright orange VS17 signal panel around your body and still not be seen by aircrews.  Have you flown on a mission before?  It should be a requirement for all GTLs to be Observer qualified.  We've had ground to air signals set up in 20' x 20' open areas that aircrews could barely see.  But throw in a few flashes from a signal mirror from a few well trained cadet ground team members and it'll never fail.  Not to mention vectoring.  Air/Ground communications is an essential skill practiced by every CAP ground team I've worked with in the past 15 years.  Even had an annual exercise called TACCOMEX that has lasted more than 25 years that inolves nothing but air/ground communicaitons.

CAP didn't pick camouflage because of the color.  CAP wears camouflaged BDUs because it is a UNIFORM.  Call it what you want but it  is the utility uniform of choice for CAP.

It's your choice to wear something else when you do searches out in Denver, that's fine.  Different region, different weather conditions and different rules.  BDUs have never ever been an issue for me or my team members.  Overweight out of shape adults stomping through the woods in the middle of summer are far more of a concern to me than BDUs.

Wearing khaki cargo pants and an orange t-shirt for SAR is no different than wearing BDUs and an orange vest.

[RiverAux]

Yes, looks can count to a certain extent.  However, I think it is probably more important that the non-CAP people see that your team is prepared.  I'm sure many here have seen volunteer firemen and others particpate in ground searches who go out into the woods in tennis shoes and without a canteen. 

Everyone knows that camo is not ideal for SAR, but it is not as simple as putting on an orange shirt.  That might be fine in some areas in the warm months of the year, but you also get into raingear, cool weather gear, and very cold weather gear. 

Now, I do think CAP should standardize search web/backpack gear and I would not go with the Army gear.  There are high vis options that we could use and could be sold through Vanguard. 

[sardak]

What CAP ground team leader allows ground team members to mill around in such a fashion that people have to ask a question.

It happens. The question is who trained these GTLs?  It wasn't me, but I end up having to undo some of these situations.  Don't get me started on GTL training.

That's what a PAO is for.  No ma'am, the Army is not here, these are members of the Civil Air Patrol ground search team looking for the young child lost from yesterday.

The example given was a UDF team in an urban setting at 2AM.

Not to mention, since when does a 5' 0" cadet (read: kid) look like he's in the Army?

We don't get to screen the IQ of the public.

Is it that big of an issue that we get confused with the Army?  Does it even happen at all?  If so, who cares?

Yes, it does happen and many CAP members do care.  I couldn't care less if someone confused us with admirals from the Nebraska Navy.

CAP is not a SAR organization, but if we were, then perhaps we should focus on a "SAR uniform".  But if we were solely a SAR organization, I would suggest that a uniform not be worn at all, but what makes you comfortable and safe.

I wouldn't go so far to say no uniform,  but  it's defining the uniform, and I concur completely that a uniform (or SAR clothing) needs to be comfortable and safe.

Have you flown on a mission before?  It should be a requirement for all GTLs to be Observer qualified.

As a matter of fact I have flown on missions as a CAP observer (SAR and CD), and more than just a few.  I also fly as a non-CAP observer on non-CAP aircraft.  I know very well what persons and objects on the ground look like from the air. 

GTLs and GTMs need to be be at least scanner.  Ground resources need to know what it's like from the air.  And because we're members of an aviation oriented organization, agencies believe that CAP ground team members know more about aviation than most do.   CAP ground personnel have been asked to assist with interpretation of NTAP data, aero charts, etc. because other agencies don't understand aviation at all.  I also think that all aircrew members should spend time on a ground team, in an air/ground scenario, to see how it works from the ground.

Overweight out of shape adults stomping through the woods in the middle of summer are far more of a concern to me than BDUs.

No arguments from me.

Wearing khaki cargo pants and an orange t-shirt for SAR is no different than wearing BDUs and an orange vest.

Agree again.  That's the issue.  With web gear or a pack on, the amount of orange that a T-shirt or vest provides is minimal, so we shouldn't try to reduce visual recognition of personnel any more than necessary.

Camo BDUs (and web gear) aside, I think you'd find that we agree on more GT issues than not.

Mike

[floridacyclist]

Not to mention, since when does a 5' 0" cadet (read: kid) look like he's in the Army?

Since Reuters posted a picture of 2 CAP cadets carrying a cooler with a caption reading "Soldiers deliver supplies to shelter in West Palm Beach". I emailed them but it was still there a few days later. I'd post a link but can't find one.

[brasda91]

I agree that presenting a "uniform" appearance is important, but when you factor in the cadets that may have limited funds, you have to be flexible in the equipment.  What is more important is the quality of training they receive.  That doesn't hinge on funds, for each cadet can receive the same training no matter what their income.

[Dragoon]

I agree that presenting a "uniform" appearance is important, but when you factor in the cadets that may have limited funds, you have to be flexible in the equipment.  What is more important is the quality of training they receive.  That doesn't hinge on funds, for each cadet can receive the same training no matter what their income.

Except that ES is not a part of the cadet program.

While I'm all about lowering the financial bar for being a cadet, doing ES is about a real world mission. Cadets can participate - but that's an optional thing for them.   If certain equipment or uniforms would make the job better or safer, they should be mandated.

[jimmydeanno]

phew...and all this time I thought I was a civilian volunteer giving my time to help save lives...

I'm glad I'm not in most of your squadrons, because the additional "expense" in purchasing your required gear would drive me away.  SO WHAT if a guy has a backpack instead of an A.L.I.C.E. pack?  As long as he has the right gear for what he's doing.  Personally, I find A.L.I.C.E packs uncomfortable, with or without the frame.  If you mandated that I HAD to use one in the field, you'd lose a volunteer.

People need to have comfort in their gear, know where their stuff is, how to use it, and most importantly BE TRAINED. 

Honestly, I don't think that ANYONE is going to turn away HELP to find someone because they don't all have the same compass, or same backpack...missing people searches, they are just glad to have bodies. 

While your appearance may give a brief first impression, your actions tend to speak louder.  I don't see anyone doubting the guys credibility in the first picture...

[sarmed1]

...missing people searches, they are just glad to have bodies.
While your appearance may give a brief first impression, your actions tend to speak louder.

However true, joe shmo shows up and ask to help they usually take him too, buts it what they taks those people to do that matters.  And yes first impressions in the ES community do matter, whether you are CAP, the Fire Department, EMS or a regular SAR team.

An EMT instructor once was lecturing in class on proffesional attributes of EMT's, what he said I still take to heart.  "It doesnt matter how much you know or how good your skills even the best paramedic, if his shirt is dirty and wrinkled and has food stains down the front, hair uncombed and boots untied, people are going to think he is a scumbag and in turn figure if he cant keep himself neat, and clean (easy tasks for anyone) and take pride in his apperance how could he be smart enough or good enough to provide top notch care.

The same theroy applies here.  If a team looks like a motley bunch of characters thrown togeher with a hodgepoge of gear and uniforms, the "pro" rescuers will assume thats their skill base as well.  No its not an asumption, as a previous non-CAP SAR team assistant chief thats the way many team leaders perceive even each others team let alone the "helpful" volunteers.  Hardley any team out there wants the "help" of the local volunteer  to actually go out and search, unless its well into the search (greater than 3 days) and we just need bodies to walk in a straight line and look for the corpse, because on perception they are a bunch of good natured folks but untrained in a mix of turnout gear, hunting clothes or street clothing some have water some have food some have radios  but generally they are more of a risk than an asset.

Sure I am not going to tell someone to pack thier toys and go home from my squadron if they have a jansport day pack if everyone else has an ALICE pack, but if I have picked ALICE gear as a standard in my unit, its not based on because I want to be out here looking like GI Joe, its likely more based on the capability of the gear to haul the equipment that the team needs and the durability of the gear to hold up under adverse conditions.  Which is the real benefit to military gear.  Certainly if you can show me why a differant peice of gear you have is better than what I specify I am just as inclined to give it the go ahead.

CAP is not alone in this attitude.  I have been a volunteer with many organizations SAR, fire departments and EMS agencies.  If they dont provide the gear or uniforms, they tell you that if bringing your own it most conform to whatever standards they choose.  If you disagree you dont have to come out and play.

mk

[Stonewall]

phew...and all this time I thought I was a civilian volunteer giving my time to help save lives...

I'm glad I'm not in most of your squadrons, because the additional "expense" in purchasing your required gear would drive me away.  SO WHAT if a guy has a backpack instead of an A.L.I.C.E. pack?  As long as he has the right gear for what he's doing.  Personally, I find A.L.I.C.E packs uncomfortable, with or without the frame.  If you mandated that I HAD to use one in the field, you'd lose a volunteer.

People need to have comfort in their gear, know where their stuff is, how to use it, and most importantly BE TRAINED. 

Honestly, I don't think that ANYONE is going to turn away HELP to find someone because they don't all have the same compass, or same backpack...missing people searches, they are just glad to have bodies. 

While your appearance may give a brief first impression, your actions tend to speak louder.  I don't see anyone doubting the guys credibility in the first picture...

Discipline comes with uniformity.  Doing your job correctly comes from discipline.  My point has always been to implement and support a competent, professional and effective ground SAR group, within my squadron.  Not only a SAR team, but a CAP squadron that also does SAR.

Setting standards within a squadron for things like "gear set up" is no different than handing you a 39-1 when you join CAP and say here ya go, this is how you have to do it.  If you looked at 39-1 and said, I ain't wearing no goofy wanna-be military uniform, you just lost a volunteer.  I'd say okay, obviously we're not for you.  No loss on our part.

I have never forced anyone to buy anything.  Like I said in my above posts, we acquired squadron gear to loan out to people who didn't have their own gear for ES activities.  Is that a bad thing?  No one ever got upset because we issued them a large ALICE pack with a frame instead of a Blackhawk hooah pack with internal frame.  

I could show you countless pictures of several of my members with things other than standard issue LBE.  From aviation survival vests to AK-47 chest rigs to a friggin school book bag.  You think I'd send someone packing because of that?  I'd say I'm a bit more civil than that and have a heckuva lot more successful experiences working with cadets and seniors than you give me credit for.

We taught the basics of gear for CAP ES and showed them "A WAY".  It happened to be a basic concept that worked.  We could have gone round and round with choosing different gear set ups and trying to find manufacturers to build us the ultimate SAR kit for our squadron.  But instead, we took something that works and had worked for years on end; something that was easy to obtain; not expensive and wouldn't ruin Cadet Binky's Jansport school backpack.

And there ain't nothing wrong with bringing uniformity (read: discipline) to emergency services.  Again, I feel CAP ES is an excellent venue for some of the higher ranking cadets to exercise what they've learned in the cadet program in leadership, management and responsibility.  YMMV and probably does.

[jimmydeanno]

Certainly if you can show me why a differant peice of gear you have is better than what I specify I am just as inclined to give it the go ahead.

But then you have a hodge podged group of people with all different equipment, which is what you were trying to avoid in the first place...  You are talking about having the right gear for what you are doing, so am I.  I will not contest that when participating in ES having the RIGHT GEAR to perform your function is crutial, and if you don't want to have the RIGHT GEAR then don't show up, but as you stated, as long as it meets the standards for doing what you need it to, it should be fine (backpack, alice pack, compass, gloves, etc)

I completly agree with you about you appearance in regards general sloppiness (i.e. food stains, wrinkles, etc.), stuff like that gives the wrong appearance.  Even the ARMY who issues it's equipment has variations that the soldiers use (camelbacks, etc), we don't call them "hodge podged."

I think there is a definite line where madating specific gear for volunteers does more harm to the organization than good.  Showing up for a search the local and state agencies should know what your capabilities are; park of the public relations bit (building a relationship with state agencies, etc.).