The Need for the Chaplaincy

[Archer]

Could someone please hip pocket me on the need/importance in CAP for the chaplain corps?

[Eclipse]

Not me, since I don't see the need.

[Flying Pig]

Ive seen Chaplains at mission bases, seen them used in CISM cases, seen them perform wedding for other CAP members, act as counselors to senior and cadets, perform funerals.  I believe the military has called on CAP Chaplains a time or two. My dad was a Chaplain in CAP.  He was pretty active, taught moral leadership or what is now called Character Development or something I guess. 

[Storm Chaser]

Our unit chaplain runs a very dynamic, robust and effective Character Development Program. He also counsels cadets and provides valuable feedback during promotion boards and other feedback sessions. I don't think our unit would be the same without our chaplain.

In an operational setting, a mission chaplain can provide support to victims' family members and can be excellent liaisons between the IC and family members. They can also provide support to CAP members on their own or through CISM teams.

In addition, CAP chaplains support the Air Force by providing chaplain augmentation while Air Force chaplains are deployed.

[Archer]

That's all fine and dandy, but I'm not seeing the need.

[Storm Chaser]

That's ok; you don't have to.

[Archer]

That's ok; you don't have to.

But I'd like to, it should be expected of a CAP officer to understand the different parts of the CAP machine, doubley so if that officer expects to properly lead units containing chaplains.

[LSThiker]

That's ok; you don't have to.

But I'd like to, it should be expected of a CAP officer to understand the different parts of the CAP machine, doubley so if that officer expects to properly lead units containing chaplains.

The CAP "reason" for the chaplain is in CAPR 265-1 and other appropriate Chaplain/CD pamphlets.  Thus you should look there.  However, the question does CAP need chaplains is entirely different.  Outside of possible CISM use, they serve little other need that cannot be served by other moral CAP members (moral leadership/character development) or by the appropriate non-CAP source (religious counseling provided by your local clergy outside of CAP). 

I will admit that I believe ML/CD should be removed from the auspices of the chaplain corps as it sends a wrong message. 

[lordmonar]

That's ok; you don't have to.

But I'd like to, it should be expected of a CAP officer to understand the different parts of the CAP machine, doubley so if that officer expects to properly lead units containing chaplains.

The provide a path for Americans to provide some service back to their community.
If you want to talk about "need" you have to frame that within a specific context.

Do you "need" chaplains to perform our three assigned missions?
Nope.
Don't need legal officers, medical officers, historians, half the ES officers, et al.
They provide a benefit to CAP and don't cost us much.......it is a non-issue.

[Spaceman3750]

Once upon a time they augmented the AF chaplain corps. Unsure if that is still the case, but all chaplain appointments still require AF approval IIRC.

[a2capt]

They still do ..

* a2capt hides.

[Flying Pig]

It's another way for people to contribute and an avenue to recruit people who can bring something to the program. CAP recruits doctors and nurses also but we don't have a medical mission.

Edited to add:  I just noticed that chaplain is in ABUs?

[Panache]

Edited to add:  I just noticed that chaplain is in ABUs?

Discussed to death in another thread, but it's basically because he was attached to a AF unit.

[Flying Pig]

Copy... By all means no need to rehash it. Simple enough.

[RiverAux]

I don't think CAP needs them for our own programs, but I'm all in favor of just about AF augmentation program so if it helps the AF that we have Chaplains, I'm fine with it.  Now, if their primary use was AF augmentation (which it isn't, BTW), then I'd be fine with finding other useful Chaplain-esque things to do. 

[Eclipse]

The Chaplain program is another hold-over of the attempt to emulate a full-time military service which no
longer fits the current CAP model, nor the needs of the membership.

Religion s not the central focus of the average member's life, as it might have been 20-30 years ago,
not to mention that the membership is much more diverse in their beliefs, yet far less structured, while the
majority of the chaplains continue to be Christian-centric.

Further to that, CAP does not have the contact hours, nor the "24x7x365" whole-life control of its members.
Anyone inclined to seek out the counsel of a member of clergy, will have their own thta they spend a lot more time
with then a few hours a year.

It's the same argument with MOs and HSOs.  In an emergency, dial 9-1-1, and in a non-emergency,
I have medical professionals who know me where I seek advice and treatment.

Is that to say that there haven't been cases where a Chaplain was able to intervene in a delicate situation,
provide counsel or care to someone in need?  Of course not, but they could provide that same counsel as a "member"
in whatever other role they would have in a given situation without the need for the structure of the Chaplain corps.

I've had to deal with far too many Chaplains who tried to use their position as an avenue towards evangelizing / recruiting
members, or who injected doctrine and opinion into MLO/CDI sessions and similar.    I've worked with a couple
who were awesome as both members and clergy, but far to many with a high noise-to-signal ratio.

The other issue is that while the augmentation program is supposed to be for an emergency situation or to fill in
when a military Chaplain is deployed, etc.  We have a few (many?) who are using the overall shortage of military
Chaplains as an excuse to become defacto military Chaplains themselves, doing more military duty every year then
CAP, assuming they participate in CAP at all.  The result is issues like the photo above, among other problems.

[Private Investigator]

FYI the Wing Chaplain performed my marriage ceremony.   

[arajca]

I have had good experiences with the chaplain corps, but they are few and far between. My unit was sharing a chaplain until he moved away for church work. He was planning to be gone for one year and we found out at the end of that year he extended his work, so no chaplain for us.

As for the CISM notion, I would call in a professional CISM team rather than use a CAP Chaplain for a CISD. I'm a retired vol. firefighter and I've been to several CISD sessions. Some were good - those that had folks from the field - and some were not - those that had only clinical types with no field experience. I realize some chaplains may have field experience, but many do not. Heck, many of the CAP "CISM" folks don't have field experience.

[Eclipse]

As for the CISM notion, I would call in a professional CISM team rather than use a CAP Chaplain for a CISD. I'm a retired vol. firefighter and I've been to several CISD sessions. Some were good - those that had folks from the field - and some were not - those that had only clinical types with no field experience. I realize some chaplains may have field experience, but many do not. Heck, many of the CAP "CISM" folks don't have field experience.

Agreed on all points - if someone is mentally scarred because of a CAP mission or similar, they need to seek professional, external assistance.

[AirAux]

If you think lawyers aren't needed, you haven't worked at Wing or a higher level.. 

[Eclipse]

If you think lawyers aren't needed, you haven't worked at Wing or a higher level..

Legal officers are only needed in regards to contract negotiations and protecting the corporation,
and the protection stuff is mostly done by non-volunteer counsel anyway.

We'd be better off having either non-members simply hired for this jobs, or getting pro-bono
support from the USAF.

Below Wing they have no duties, and these days most, if not all, contracts have to go to NHQ, so even
at Wing or Region their need is dubious.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

If you think lawyers aren't needed, you haven't worked at Wing or a higher level..

Legal officers are only needed in regards to contract negotiations and protecting the corporation,
and the protection stuff is mostly done by non-volunteer counsel anyway.

We'd be better off having either non-members simply hired for this jobs, or getting pro-bono
support from the USAF.

Below Wing they have no duties, and these days most, if not all, contracts have to go to NHQ, so even
at Wing or Region their need is dubious.

Wing Legal Officers are a critical part of the IG Complaints process. Most specifically in investigations. 

[Eclipse]

Wing Legal Officers are a critical part of the IG Complaints process. Most specifically in investigations.

Agreed.  On paper.  That falls into the "protecting the corporation" category.

Reality varies pretty heavily from Wing-to-wing.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

My first unit had a Chaplain and he was a real go-getter.

He was a Presbyterian minister serving a congregation and being a hospital chaplain.

In CAP, he held Observer and (I think) Ground Team qualifications.

I liked him a lot.  We had a great rapport.

We lost him when he got a call to a congregation in another state.  Our loss.  I hope he remained active in CAP.

He told me that to be a CAP Chaplain, he had to go through exactly the same vetting process/ecclesiastical endorsement as a Chaplain in the active Air Force, ANG, or AFRES.

He also told me that a State Defence Force had offered him Lieutenant Colonel straight up if he joined as a chaplain...he didn't take them up on it, but he was seriously considering the AFRES.

[Spaceman3750]

We had a Baptist minister join our squadron. It was actually kind of cool, his son was a SM and his granddaughter is still a cadet. He wanted to become a chaplain. Apparently not only is it incredibly difficult to become a CAP chaplain, but baptists are weird in that their ministry colleges aren't regionally accredited. Also he could never figure out what an ecclesiastical endorsement meant in the context of his flavor of baptist. It was unfortunate, apparently he had some conversations directly with the wing chaplain that made him mad, and by the time me or my CC found out he was already gone and there was nothing we could do to fix it. His son left shortly after, which was a decent blow to my units ES capability, as he was tracking to be a GTL.

Oh well.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Apparently not only is it incredibly difficult to become a CAP chaplain, but baptists are weird in that their ministry colleges aren't regionally accredited.

It depends on what "flavour" of Baptist he was.  Our first chaplain was exactly the same - Independent Baptist, and it was like parting the Red Sea (ouch) to get his ecclesiastical endorsement, because he wasn't even sure who to talk to!  Conversely, the major organised Baptist denominations (Southern Baptist, and my wife's former denomination, American Baptist) do have large governing bodies, and it is a lot easier to deal with them, as with other major ecclesiastical bodies - Methodist, Presbyterian, Roman Catholic, Jewish, Episcopalian, Disciples of Christ and my own Lutheran (Missouri Synod).  I do not know how Buddhist or Muslim chaplains go about ordination, because I know very little about their religions.

But for the smaller "independent" ones, like the "Bible Churches," some Pentecostalists, and the more independent Baptists, it can be a battle.

An amusing incident I will likely never forget is when a guy showed up to one of my squadrons and said he was an ordained minister in the Universal Life Church, which a lot of draft-dodgers got "ordained" into to try to get out of serving in Vietnam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Life_Church

He may have been sincere - that is not for me to judge.  But he showed up at the squadron meeting with this filthy clerical collar that looked like it had not been washed since the Great Flood and his "credentials."  The squadron CC took me aside (I was one of the only unit members really involved with a church) and asked me if he was legit or a couple beers short of a six-pack.  I told him I didn't know, but I suggested that the CC direct him to the Wing Chaplain.  He did, and we never heard from the guy again.

[Archer]

Apparently not only is it incredibly difficult to become a CAP chaplain, but baptists are weird in that their ministry colleges aren't regionally accredited.

It depends on what "flavour" of Baptist he was.  Our first chaplain was exactly the same - Independent Baptist, and it was like parting the Red Sea (ouch) to get his ecclesiastical endorsement, because he wasn't even sure who to talk to!  Conversely, the major organised Baptist denominations (Southern Baptist, and my wife's former denomination, American Baptist) do have large governing bodies, and it is a lot easier to deal with them, as with other major ecclesiastical bodies - Methodist, Presbyterian, Roman Catholic, Jewish, Episcopalian, Disciples of Christ and my own Lutheran (Missouri Synod).  I do not know how Buddhist or Muslim chaplains go about ordination, because I know very little about their religions.

But for the smaller "independent" ones, like the "Bible Churches," some Pentecostalists, and the more independent Baptists, it can be a battle.

An amusing incident I will likely never forget is when a guy showed up to one of my squadrons and said he was an ordained minister in the Universal Life Church, which a lot of draft-dodgers got "ordained" into to try to get out of serving in Vietnam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Life_Church

He may have been sincere - that is not for me to judge.  But he showed up at the squadron meeting with this filthy clerical collar that looked like it had not been washed since the Great Flood and his "credentials."  The squadron CC took me aside (I was one of the only unit members really involved with a church) and asked me if he was legit or a couple beers short of a six-pack.  I told him I didn't know, but I suggested that the CC direct him to the Wing Chaplain.  He did, and we never heard from the guy again.

What about Westboro Baptist?

[LSThiker]

I do not know how Buddhist or Muslim chaplains go about ordination, because I know very little about their religions.

I met the Army's first, and at that time only, Buddhist chaplain:  CPT Thomas Dyer.  Nice guy.  At the time, he was a TN-ARNG chaplain but has since transferred to AD.  He was a former Baptist minister.  He said it is pretty much impossible for Buddhists to join as chaplains since the Army requires a Masters in Theology, which he got by first being a Baptist minister.   

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I've had to deal with far too many Chaplains who tried to use their position as an avenue towards evangelizing / recruiting
members, or who injected doctrine and opinion into MLO/CDI sessions and similar.    I've worked with a couple
who were awesome as both members and clergy, but far to many with a high noise-to-signal ratio.

The Chaplain I mentioned in another posting on this thread, a Presbyterian minister (who was also Observer and I believe GT qualified) had a conversation about this once, about 15 years ago.

He said, "as a Chaplain, I am required to meet people where they are spiritually.  I am to be available to anyone, regardless of religion, including atheists and agnostics."

I was once counselled by an AF Chaplain who was a Jewish Rabbi.  I am not Jewish, so I was sceptical how he would relate but this particular "Skypilot" probably saved my life, and that's no exaggeration.

[JeffDG]

Wing Legal Officers are a critical part of the IG Complaints process. Most specifically in investigations.

Agreed.  On paper.  That falls into the "protecting the corporation" category.

Reality varies pretty heavily from Wing-to-wing.

What is it with you and "Yeah, the regulations say that, but I don't like it so I'll just ignore that the regs say that and continue spouting my myths." meme?

[Eclipse]

It's called the practical reality vs. what CAP would like to assert is supposed to happen.

[JeffDG]

It's called the practical reality vs. what CAP would like to assert is supposed to happen.

Ahhh, I get it.  You're right, and everyone should take your word, regardless of what's actually written in the regs.

[Eclipse]

In this case, I agreed with what the regs say, and then pointed out that the practical reality was different in some wings.

[Brit_in_CAP]

As for the CISM notion, I would call in a professional CISM team rather than use a CAP Chaplain for a CISD. I'm a retired vol. firefighter and I've been to several CISD sessions. Some were good - those that had folks from the field - and some were not - those that had only clinical types with no field experience. I realize some chaplains may have field experience, but many do not. Heck, many of the CAP "CISM" folks don't have field experience.

Agreed on all points - if someone is mentally scarred because of a CAP mission or similar, they need to seek professional, external assistance.

Agreed; I was attracted to CAP initially as a CDI - no regrets and I find it very fulfilling - but also by the opportunity to be trained in CISM.

Since then, 'pay to play' has meant no CISM training for me but, more importantly, I've been persuaded to leave it alone.  That persuasion was done by a former CAP Chaplain who had trained in CISM and who deals with this type of activity in his non-CAP ministry.  This is not for the untrained, enthusiastic amateur.  There is *no way* that I would have allowed the enthusiastic young CAP SM I met in my CAP travels, who was CISM trained in his paying job (allegedly), come anywhere near me. 

There *are* other things that CAP could adopt that would be useful and helpful in this arena but the organization is *deep* into CISM and it has its' claws into CAP. 

The other things I mentioned don't involve 'interventions' or anything else, they are simply formalized methods for assessing if an individual is in need of professional help after an traumatic incident in their lives - easy to train on, cheap to do and don't need lots and lots of repeat qualifications.... no interest from CAP despite their adoption by some serious organizations across the world.

To repeat myself: I truly enjoy being a CDI and I'd stay with it even if it moved into CP from the supervision of the Chaplain Branch.

Edited: my former CAP Chaplain friend didn't leave due to being upset with CISM, CAP or anything else!  He had to take a new job and that left insufficient time for CAP, at least for now.

[Brit_in_CAP]

I've had to deal with far too many Chaplains who tried to use their position as an avenue towards evangelizing / recruiting
members, or who injected doctrine and opinion into MLO/CDI sessions and similar.    I've worked with a couple
who were awesome as both members and clergy, but far to many with a high noise-to-signal ratio.

The Chaplain I mentioned in another posting on this thread, a Presbyterian minister (who was also Observer and I believe GT qualified) had a conversation about this once, about 15 years ago.

He said, "as a Chaplain, I am required to meet people where they are spiritually.  I am to be available to anyone, regardless of religion, including atheists and agnostics."

I was once counselled by an AF Chaplain who was a Jewish Rabbi.  I am not Jewish, so I was sceptical how he would relate but this particular "Skypilot" probably saved my life, and that's no exaggeration.

The best Chaplains I ever served with understood that (Always & Everyone) whilst the worst did not, and should never have found their way into the Service.  The mediocre struggled to say that effectively and should have have sharpened up or gone away, to be honest!

[Brit_in_CAP]

Let me, if I may, offer a reflection from my homeland.

I was an Air Training Corps (ATC) Cadet and I stayed involved with the ATC during my regular duty time.

The ATC also has Chaplains but not a Chaplain Corps.

The chaplains are all classed as 'Honorary', don't wear a uniform even if they retired regular military in some way, and are classed as Civilian Instructors (CI); a squadron or flight is not mandated to have one.

They can come from any church that can 'send' chaplains to the regular military and need only be approved by their church as a suitable person for working with teenagers (there isn't a Senior Member program in the ATC).  The Wing is responsible for arranging an interview, as they are for any CI, for administering the application process and the background check.

As a result, many squadrons are able to make us of 'lay ministers' who've completed their local training course (that would have been me if we'd stayed in the UK).

The end result is a very effective program that is easy to administer and is very low cost to the organization.  WIWAC most chaplains were Anglican minsters who enjoyed their week of Encampment, living in the Officer's Mess and were rarely seen.  Today, it's very different, thankfully, but they still have to work with everyone who shows up and not just their little flock!

I think that the Army Cadet Corps has a structure based on the Royal Army Chaplain Branch and I have no idea how the Sea Cadet Corps works.

Personally, as a CDI and being 'part' of the Chaplain Branch I think that the connection to Ma Blue is overdone.  Some of our Chaplains loose focus on that and, as has been said elsewhere, spend too much time helping out the regular military or see it as an opportunity to bring their church to a captive audience.

Caveat Emptor - you don't have to take on board every person who applies to be a Chaplain.

It would be easier without the need to match the AF requirements and we'd stand a better chance (YMMV) of getting chaplains who would be a 'force multiplier' for CAP.  Like I said, my opinion and YMMV.

[Private Investigator]

An amusing incident I will likely never forget is when a guy showed up to one of my squadrons and said he was an ordained minister in the Universal Life Church, which a lot of draft-dodgers got "ordained" into to try to get out of serving in Vietnam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Life_Church

He may have been sincere - that is not for me to judge.  But he showed up at the squadron meeting with this filthy clerical collar that looked like it had not been washed since the Great Flood and his "credentials."  The squadron CC took me aside (I was one of the only unit members really involved with a church) and asked me if he was legit or a couple beers short of a six-pack.  I told him I didn't know, but I suggested that the CC direct him to the Wing Chaplain.  He did, and we never heard from the guy again.

I glad you mentioned ULC types. Lot of them get that in prison so when you are on parole you get additional 'freebies' from your State and the Fed. That pops up a lot when I interview parolees   

[Flying Pig]

I knew parolee who was running around doing biker weddings and charging $100 a pop.  Dude had a good little side gig   He was the local biker pastor and was accepted in and around all the other rival "clubs" because he was a "pastor".  Dude spends his life as a biker, selling dope and doin' crime.... but goes to prison, pays $25 or whatever it is for his card and suddenly he's a man of the cloth    But apparently God told him it was OK to still stay in the life so he could relate to his brothers.... ie. Still be a dirtbag.  But you know...... just so he could relate. :clap:

[Private Investigator]

As for the CISM notion, I would call in a professional CISM team rather than use a CAP Chaplain for a CISD. I'm a retired vol. firefighter and I've been to several CISD sessions. Some were good - those that had folks from the field - and some were not - those that had only clinical types with no field experience. I realize some chaplains may have field experience, but many do not. Heck, many of the CAP "CISM" folks don't have field experience.

As a full time lawman for 25+ years I have various pros/cons re: CISM.

Define "professional" because that would mean they are unprofessional teams. Or are you saying people who get paid are a better resource than a volunteer? Because any "CISM" is better than no "CISM", I remember many moons ago before CISM you were involved in a fatal event you got a bottle of whiskey and a carton of cigarettes and you moved on. 

[Private Investigator]

I knew parolee who was running around doing biker weddings and charging $100 a pop.  Dude had a good little side gig   He was the local biker pastor and was accepted in and around all the other rival "clubs" because he was a "pastor".  Dude spends his life as a biker, selling dope and doin' crime.... but goes to prison, pays $25 or whatever it is for his card and suddenly he's a man of the cloth    But apparently God told him it was OK to still stay in the life so he could relate to his brothers.... ie. Still be a dirtbag.  But you know...... just so he could relate. :clap:

Flying Pig, I got an ideal who you are talking about in NorCal. Stay safe my friend   

[arajca]

As for the CISM notion, I would call in a professional CISM team rather than use a CAP Chaplain for a CISD. I'm a retired vol. firefighter and I've been to several CISD sessions. Some were good - those that had folks from the field - and some were not - those that had only clinical types with no field experience. I realize some chaplains may have field experience, but many do not. Heck, many of the CAP "CISM" folks don't have field experience.

As a full time lawman for 25+ years I have various pros/cons re: CISM.

Define "professional" because that would mean they are unprofessional teams. Or are you saying people who get paid are a better resource than a volunteer? Because any "CISM" is better than no "CISM", I remember many moons ago before CISM you were involved in a fatal event you got a bottle of whiskey and a carton of cigarettes and you moved on. 

Professional - Folks who do CISM on a regular basis. Paid/volunteer is irrelevent, however, the best CISM teams I have worked with are made up of paid fire/ems/law professionals with CISM training who do CISM on a volunteer basis.

I disagree with "any CISM is better than no CISM". I have also had the misfortune of going to a mandatory CISD with a team comprised exclusively of mental health folks They could not get their minds around what we had experienced (patient didn't make it after heart attack doing CPR for 1/2 hour - we witnessed the arrest. Pt was a friend of us), and consequently declared we were sick and twisted for not exhibiting the 'normal' signs of grieving. Their recommendation was to retire all of use for mental instability and PTSD (before is was called that). We ended up doing our own 'debrief' a few days later, informally.

[Eclipse]

I disagree with "any CISM is better than no CISM". I have also had the misfortune of going to a mandatory CISD with a team comprised exclusively of mental health folks They could not get their minds around what we had experienced (patient didn't make it after heart attack doing CPR for 1/2 hour - we witnessed the arrest. Pt was a friend of us), and consequently declared we were sick and twisted for not exhibiting the 'normal' signs of grieving. Their recommendation was to retire all of use for mental instability and PTSD (before is was called that). We ended up doing our own 'debrief' a few days later, informally.

+1 Huge problem.

Properly trained and prepared people, volunteer or professional, will be prepared and capable of dealing with death, injury, and graphic
scenes.  That doesn't make it easy, or insinuate some won't struggle, but it does mean that they probably will have the tools to
deal with it differently then someone off the street being confronted by a situation they are neither trained nor prepared for.

The average mental health professional, or trained well-meaning volunteer, has no frame of reference for "normal" in these cases.

"CISM in a 6-pack", i.e. talk around the fire between people with similar, relevent experience, is much more effective then a
force 15 minutes debrief about "feelings" after a long day in the field.

[Panache]

Since then, 'pay to play' has meant no CISM training for me but, more importantly, I've been persuaded to leave it alone.  That persuasion was done by a former CAP Chaplain who had trained in CISM and who deals with this type of activity in his non-CAP ministry.  This is not for the untrained, enthusiastic amateur.  There is *no way* that I would have allowed the enthusiastic young CAP SM I met in my CAP travels, who was CISM trained in his paying job (allegedly), come anywhere near me. 

I'm curious what the Chaplain told you that persuaded you to stay away from CISM.

[Mitchell 1969]

As for the CISM notion, I would call in a professional CISM team rather than use a CAP Chaplain for a CISD. I'm a retired vol. firefighter and I've been to several CISD sessions. Some were good - those that had folks from the field - and some were not - those that had only clinical types with no field experience. I realize some chaplains may have field experience, but many do not. Heck, many of the CAP "CISM" folks don't have field experience.

As a full time lawman for 25+ years I have various pros/cons re: CISM.

Define "professional" because that would mean they are unprofessional teams. Or are you saying people who get paid are a better resource than a volunteer? Because any "CISM" is better than no "CISM", I remember many moons ago before CISM you were involved in a fatal event you got a bottle of whiskey and a carton of cigarettes and you moved on. 

I went through training as a CISM debriefer when I was a police captain. One of my "things" was to visit other departments to convince chiefs and other command officers that CISM was a better option than the old fashioned bottle and smokes cure. I was asked to do this because the mental health folks realized that they couldn't sell it from their perspective. While the fire service had bought into it, law enforcement was not convinced and would not be convinced by anyone outside of that profession.

I was happy to be that guy because I believed in the concept. I believed in it because I was around long enough to have seen the outcome of not doing CISM vs doing CISM.

However....what I dealt with was a system where public safety people with experience in public safety critical incidents were trained to do the debriefings in partnership with mental health professionals. In other words, it was peer based. That was the only way to sell it and, in my opinion, the only way to make it effective.

[Mitchell 1969]

As for the CISM notion, I would call in a professional CISM team rather than use a CAP Chaplain for a CISD. I'm a retired vol. firefighter and I've been to several CISD sessions. Some were good - those that had folks from the field - and some were not - those that had only clinical types with no field experience. I realize some chaplains may have field experience, but many do not. Heck, many of the CAP "CISM" folks don't have field experience.

As a full time lawman for 25+ years I have various pros/cons re: CISM.

Define "professional" because that would mean they are unprofessional teams. Or are you saying people who get paid are a better resource than a volunteer? Because any "CISM" is better than no "CISM", I remember many moons ago before CISM you were involved in a fatal event you got a bottle of whiskey and a carton of cigarettes and you moved on. 

Professional - Folks who do CISM on a regular basis. Paid/volunteer is irrelevent, however, the best CISM teams I have worked with are made up of paid fire/ems/law professionals with CISM training who do CISM on a volunteer basis.

I disagree with "any CISM is better than no CISM". I have also had the misfortune of going to a mandatory CISD with a team comprised exclusively of mental health folks They could not get their minds around what we had experienced (patient didn't make it after heart attack doing CPR for 1/2 hour - we witnessed the arrest. Pt was a friend of us), and consequently declared we were sick and twisted for not exhibiting the 'normal' signs of grieving. Their recommendation was to retire all of use for mental instability and PTSD (before is was called that). We ended up doing our own 'debrief' a few days later, informally.

Your first paragraph describes how it is supposed to be done. Your second paragraph describes a dismal failure reflecting a deviation from the way it is supposed to be done.

[SunDog]

I think chaplains are good luck. I like seeing them on the flight line, especially. Weirdly enough, I don't have religion. My very limited dealings with them, USAF and CAP, were positive. One did most certainly save a buddy from a gruesome end. If a chaplain isn't a CISM expert, he /she likely knows where to find that help.

Need? I dunno. . .probably at least as useful as half the ICP positions we make so much of, and actually use somseldom. Do chaplains oten wear another hat in CAP? Do other duties, as well? Reverend-Major MP?

[Brit_in_CAP]

Since then, 'pay to play' has meant no CISM training for me but, more importantly, I've been persuaded to leave it alone.  That persuasion was done by a former CAP Chaplain who had trained in CISM and who deals with this type of activity in his non-CAP ministry.  This is not for the untrained, enthusiastic amateur.  There is *no way* that I would have allowed the enthusiastic young CAP SM I met in my CAP travels, who was CISM trained in his paying job (allegedly), come anywhere near me. 

I'm curious what the Chaplain told you that persuaded you to stay away from CISM.

I'll happily share it, once I locate the email and redact a few names from the text.  There's nothing *bad* in the email, its simply that I won't quote other people's names without their permission. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I think chaplains are good luck. I like seeing them on the flight line, especially. Weirdly enough, I don't have religion. My very limited dealings with them, USAF and CAP, were positive. One did most certainly save a buddy from a gruesome end. If a chaplain isn't a CISM expert, he /she likely knows where to find that help.

Need? I dunno. . .probably at least as useful as half the ICP positions we make so much of, and actually use somseldom. Do chaplains oten wear another hat in CAP? Do other duties, as well? Reverend-Major MP?

An AFRES Chaplain (Evangelical Lutheran Church In America) once told me that among his most basic but most fulfilling duties was bringing hot coffee to those on the flight line at Minot AFB in the middle of winter.

[JayT]

I disagree with "any CISM is better than no CISM". I have also had the misfortune of going to a mandatory CISD with a team comprised exclusively of mental health folks They could not get their minds around what we had experienced (patient didn't make it after heart attack doing CPR for 1/2 hour - we witnessed the arrest. Pt was a friend of us), and consequently declared we were sick and twisted for not exhibiting the 'normal' signs of grieving. Their recommendation was to retire all of use for mental instability and PTSD (before is was called that). We ended up doing our own 'debrief' a few days later, informally.

As a paramedic with a degree in psychology, I firmly believe that unless it happens to you, you have no idea what it's like. I would never seek CISM help unless the team was another career paramedic. PD, Suppression, in hospital staff all have a equal but separate set of stresses that aren't completely matched up to mine. There's  some studies that CISD works with guys on the job, but there's also been meta analysis of studies on CISD that show they may actually do more harm then good. Personally, I find a cup of coffee and a few truly morbid and disturbing jokes after a bad run with my crew is the most healthy way of dealing with job related trauma.

[Private Investigator]

I disagree with "any CISM is better than no CISM". I have also had the misfortune of going to a mandatory CISD with a team comprised exclusively of mental health folks They could not get their minds around what we had experienced (patient didn't make it after heart attack doing CPR for 1/2 hour - we witnessed the arrest. Pt was a friend of us), and consequently declared we were sick and twisted for not exhibiting the 'normal' signs of grieving. Their recommendation was to retire all of use for mental instability and PTSD (before is was called that). We ended up doing our own 'debrief' a few days later, informally.

As a paramedic with a degree in psychology, I firmly believe that unless it happens to you, you have no idea what it's like. I would never seek CISM help unless the team was another career paramedic. PD, Suppression, in hospital staff all have a equal but separate set of stresses that aren't completely matched up to mine. There's  some studies that CISD works with guys on the job, but there's also been meta analysis of studies on CISD that show they may actually do more harm then good. Personally, I find a cup of coffee and a few truly morbid and disturbing jokes after a bad run with my crew is the most healthy way of dealing with job related trauma.

Good points but what works for you may not work for a team member.

Marcus Luttrell (Lone Survivor) did 8 years in the Navy. The SEAL who did the kill shot on bin Laden did 16 years. I use to be the guy who thought that if you were trained elite military, police, fire or paramedic you can do 20+ years easily. But today I know what one person sees as just part of the job, another may see totally different. So mental health needs to take multiple approaches. Also people could be in a different place, i.e. "The seven stages of grief". I could be at stage #7 and my partner could still be stuck at stage #1.

[Brit_in_CAP]

I disagree with "any CISM is better than no CISM". I have also had the misfortune of going to a mandatory CISD with a team comprised exclusively of mental health folks They could not get their minds around what we had experienced (patient didn't make it after heart attack doing CPR for 1/2 hour - we witnessed the arrest. Pt was a friend of us), and consequently declared we were sick and twisted for not exhibiting the 'normal' signs of grieving. Their recommendation was to retire all of use for mental instability and PTSD (before is was called that). We ended up doing our own 'debrief' a few days later, informally.

As a paramedic with a degree in psychology, I firmly believe that unless it happens to you, you have no idea what it's like. I would never seek CISM help unless the team was another career paramedic. PD, Suppression, in hospital staff all have a equal but separate set of stresses that aren't completely matched up to mine. There's  some studies that CISD works with guys on the job, but there's also been meta analysis of studies on CISD that show they may actually do more harm then good. Personally, I find a cup of coffee and a few truly morbid and disturbing jokes after a bad run with my crew is the most healthy way of dealing with job related trauma.

Good points but what works for you may not work for a team member.

Marcus Luttrell (Lone Survivor) did 8 years in the Navy. The SEAL who did the kill shot on bin Laden did 16 years. I use to be the guy who thought that if you were trained elite military, police, fire or paramedic you can do 20+ years easily. But today I know what one person sees as just part of the job, another may see totally different. So mental health needs to take multiple approaches. Also people could be in a different place, i.e. "The seven stages of grief". I could be at stage #7 and my partner could still be stuck at stage #1.

Two excellent points that CAP needs to deal with:

Mental health needs to take multiple approaches.

People could be in a different places.   

I think (personally and YMMV) that we as an organization would do well to develop skills in counseling techniques that aren't as cumbersome / intrusive / hard-to-gain-skills-in  as CISM, which certainly has its place.
Just a thought.

[Brit_in_CAP]

OK...just a thought here....this started as a thread about the need for Chaplaincy and we've ended up taking CISM?!   

Happens a lot - there's another thread from 2007 similar to this one - but CISM isn't owned by the Chaplain Branch, they're simply part of the team.   

Did we answer the original question 

[Eclipse]

This is one of the issues with the way both programs are executed today, an assumption
that CDI, Chaplain, and CISM programs are somehow inter-related.

They aren't, but because the same people are involved in many case, they become so in a lot
of member's minds.

And that's where many of the issues start - when well meaning Chaplains introduce their
religious doctrine, whether intentionally or otherwise, into the CDI and CISM programs.

[arajca]

Is there a "need" for the Chaplaincy program? Sorry, folks, I don't see it.

There are those who would argue that since the military has a chaplaincy, CAP needs one, however, the circumstances between CAP and military personnel are hugely different. Most CAP members that are active in religion, have a regular church or denomination they are part of in their local area. In the military, you may not have one in the local community, especially if you're deployed overseas.

While CAP does offer religious services at some activities, usually generic, non-denominational services, I have also seen some that simply allocate time and offer a list of local church that hold services around that time frame. If you chose not to go to the services, you have extra time to sleep, relax, read, etc.

As for the relationship between CDI and Chaplaincy programs, CDI was called Moral Leadership Officer and one requirement was an endorsement from your local church. There was an appearance that if you weren't religiously active, you weren't considered as having good morals and should not providing moral guidance to cadets, hence the change to Character Development Instructor. The Character Development falls under the Chaplain program for rules and materials.

[Brit_in_CAP]

This is one of the issues with the way both programs are executed today, an assumption
that CDI, Chaplain, and CISM programs are somehow inter-related.

They aren't, but because the same people are involved in many case, they become so in a lot
of member's minds.

And that's where many of the issues start - when well meaning Chaplains introduce their
religious doctrine, whether intentionally or otherwise, into the CDI and CISM programs.

:clap: :clap:  Well put...and I'm a supporter of the Chaplain Corps!

[Brit_in_CAP]

There are those who would argue that since the military has a chaplaincy, CAP needs one, however, the circumstances between CAP and military personnel are hugely different. Most CAP members that are active in religion, have a regular church or denomination they are part of in their local area. In the military, you may not have one in the local community, especially if you're deployed overseas.

All true.  CAP does not *need* a Chaplain Corps, it *wants* one.

While CAP does offer religious services at some activities, usually generic, non-denominational services, I have also seen some that simply allocate time and offer a list of local church that hold services around that time frame. If you chose not to go to the services, you have extra time to sleep, relax, read, etc.

Again, true and quite reasonable.  The facility is offered and the choice is yours.  It was like that for my daughter at Cape May but it was a different story at Parris island for our son.  For CAP I think that's a fair model.

As for the relationship between CDI and Chaplaincy programs, CDI was called Moral Leadership Officer and one requirement was an endorsement from your local church. There was an appearance that if you weren't religiously active, you weren't considered as having good morals and should not providing moral guidance to cadets, hence the change to Character Development Instructor. The Character Development falls under the Chaplain program for rules and materials.

It is hubris to assume that sound morals are *automatically* linked to one's religious observance or the lack thereof.  I've met and worked with atheists with sound morals and long time ministers who were a disgrace.

That said, the CDI specialty works well for people like me who are 'lay minsters' in their denomination, want to take that into a new dimension but are excluded from being Chaplains (lack of ordination usually).  I have no issue with the program being supervised by the Chaplains and I'd stick with it even if it wasn't.  I add value to the lives of my cadets and to some of the Senior Members; my church takes an interest in what I do and is properly supportive.  I'm very fortunate.

I personally have yet to encounter a CDI who wasn't originally endorsed by their church in some form.  Actually, to be honest with you all, I've yet to actually meet in person another CDI in my Wing....

I feel a new thread coming on...

In the end, and coming from a (associate) member of the Chaplain Branch: CAP does not *need* a Chaplain Corps, it *wants* one.   I'd still hate to see the organization without chaplains in some form but I'm am not convinced that modeling on the AF is a sound model for us.

[Eclipse]

All true.  CAP does not *need* a Chaplain Corps, it *wants* one.

Bang. 

[Private Investigator]

OK...just a thought here....this started as a thread about the need for Chaplaincy and we've ended up taking CISM?!   

Happens a lot - there's another thread from 2007 similar to this one - but CISM isn't owned by the Chaplain Branch, they're simply part of the team.   

Did we answer the original question 

I thought we did