New Narrow Band System

[connelly]

This new narrow band is not looking so good right now. I see the point of doing this. We will double the channels available to us but the radios aprooved only include one of each category. On hand held, on mobile, and one base. I think we need more aprooved radios before switching over or everyone will have the same radio witch will get verry confusing. Luckely NC Wing is near the end of the list to switch over.

[lordmonar]

This new narrow band is not looking so good right now. I see the point of doing this. We will double the channels available to us but the radios aprooved only include one of each category. On hand held, on mobile, and one base. I think we need more aprooved radios before switching over or everyone will have the same radio witch will get verry confusing. Luckely NC Wing is near the end of the list to switch over.

How is that confusing?  Only one hand held....so that my training in NVWG is good when I happen to be working in NCWG?  The same radio means standardization.  If you mean confusing because I don't if that radio on the table is yours or mine....you fix that by putting your name on the radio.

Not very confusing.

[arajca]

There are far more than one 'approved' radio in each category. National is only buying one type in each category which makes the job of programming and maintaining them easier, but there are a bunch of compliant radios you can choose from if you are buying your own. You can buy any radio that meets the published standards.

And how will everyone having the same radio be confusing. I presume you label your radios to identify who is responsible for it or who owns it.

As for the time frame, a request for an extension has been submitted due to international issues - there are some interference issues to the north that have not been worked out yet. Solving that issue is entirely out of CAP's control - the US State Dept. is working on it.

[LTC_Gadget]

My gear doesn't tend to get far enough away from me to get confused with anyone else's, but that's just me. 

I chose to get active again just a little bit late, as I missed the 2006 cutoff for returning my previously legally-modified Yaesu radio to service. So now, I've got to buy new stuff.  Dangit.

After reading the pages up on NTIC, it does seem as if they can't possibly update the lists on the site as quickly as the mfrs are updating their product lines.  There was a passage somewhere there stating (paraphrasing) that if you'd do the initial legwork and gather the technical info on a particular radio in which you're interested, and forward it to them requesting evaluation, that it would go a long way to getting that particular radio added to the list. Although, of the ones I followed up on at sites selling them, it would seem that the days of the $250 radio are gone.  I've evidently been picking the wrong time for me personally to try to read through that stuff.  By the time I take the tolerances off the NTIC site, then page through a mfr website to find a radio in which I think I'm interested, download the brochure, then find the technical specs, as opposed to the marketing specs, and translate their terms into the commensurate NTIC terms, my mind's a pretzel.  I've gotta stop tryin' to do that after 10pm.. 

So, lemme be lazy for a minute and ask the assemblage.. Has anyone spec'd out a Yaesu that'll be post '06 compliant with everything that it needs to be?  My only saving grace is that, if I buy it for CAP now, at least I'll be on the bleeding edge on the amateur side, if I get active there again..  

I guess we need to have a garage sale at Dayton Hamvention to 'divest' ourselves of the stuff that we now can't use, but someone in the ham community still could.. Kidding!!

Thanks for any info you can provide on the Yaesu issue..

Regards,

[arajca]

Sorry, everything I use is grandfathered in. (Icom F50 - personal, Vertex VX-800 - squadron)

[Eclipse]

Sorry, everything I use is grandfathered in. (Icom F50 - personal, Vertex VX-800 - squadron)

There is no such thing as a "grandfathered" radio - it is either compliant, or not, and they keep changing the list.

Just as an FYI to everyone, the USAF is issuing hundreds if not thousands of radios.  You might be surprised to find that your Wing DC's office or secure storage has no place to walk because of all the boxes.

The key is whether he will actually issue it.  In our case, we had to ask several times, like a lot of times. 

I mean, a lot....   


Edit: Just as a side note, I went and checked and both radios above are on the current compliant list, if placed in service before 01/06, but are still showing "TBD" if placed in service after 01/06, so I guess that could be considered "grandfathered".

Notice: Radios meeting the "Narrowband Pre 1/06", but failing to meet or not having been tested to the "Narrowband Post 1/06" standards may continue to be used until the end of their life cycle, if acquired or placed in service prior to Jan 2006 (Ref: 47 CFR 300 5.3.5.2, Effective Dates).  "N/A" in the "Narrowband Compliant Post 1/06" column indicates the radio was not tested to the New Standards by the manufacturer.

What is really unfair on this is that the list changed mid-year last year, and radios listed as fully compliant, such as the HT1000, were dropped to the "pre 01/06" category.  I have members who bought radios, only to find they couldn't use them.  When we asked NHQ, they said "well, who can say when they were "put in service"? 

Um, the license docs?  And in states that have 'By the book" DC's that's a REAL problem.

[Psicorp]

We've been told that some of our current frequencies have already been given for use to "other agencies". Since we can't get off those frequencies until we make full transition, we've been told that in some areas we will have to share the frequency with those "other agencies".  I'm curious to know if anyone has noticed any outside traffic.

[Eclipse]

We've been told that some of our current frequencies have already been given for use to "other agencies". Since we can't get off those frequencies until we make full transition, we've been told that in some areas we will have to share the frequency with those "other agencies".  I'm curious to know if anyone has noticed any outside traffic.

For one thing, Canada and Mexico are disputing the frequencies we have been assigned (per my DC).

There is also the issue of the fact that you can't convert until the new repeaters are installed (or reprogrammed), and has been mentioned ad nauseum, NHQ is issuing new repeaters, but has not budgeted for installation.  One does not install something the size of a refrigerator in Sears Tower or the John Hancock for "free".

Time stamp marked above - I will be very surprised if this doesn't turn into a last-minute 1-year extension, as I believe will happen with ELT's as well.

[arajca]

We've been told that some of our current frequencies have already been given for use to "other agencies". Since we can't get off those frequencies until we make full transition, we've been told that in some areas we will have to share the frequency with those "other agencies".  I'm curious to know if anyone has noticed any outside traffic.

For one thing, Canada and Mexico are disputing the frequencies we have been assigned (per my DC).

From a comm briefing last weekend, the Mexico issue had been worked out, but the Canada one is still ongoing.

There is also the issue of the fact that you can't convert until the new repeaters are installed (or reprogrammed), and has been mentioned ad nauseum, NHQ is issuing new repeaters, but has not budgeted for installation.  One does not install something the size of a refrigerator in Sears Tower or the John Hancock for "free".

Well, at least you can access the repeater site year-round. We have several in CO that we can access only three-four months a year. If we don't have the new repeaters at COWG/HQ by 1 July, they won't be able to be installed this year.

Time stamp marked above - I will be very surprised if this doesn't turn into a last-minute 1-year extension, as I believe will happen with ELT's as well.

I - along with many others in Comm - feel the same way.

[SKYKING607]

FWIW Department

My LE Agency just recently re-programmed our radios for the 12.5 khz narrowband requirement.  WOW!  What a world of difference!  Some "dead areas" were eliminated, horrible reception was improved significantly.  The troops are very happy! 

We did not go P25 (digital), well at least not yet.  Some problems with other agencies nearby that went digital early.  Some handhelds that escaped the reprogrammers PC sound terrible on the air. 

(Here's my two pennies..... $ .02)

[Major Lord]

I am sure that hand-helds over modulating sound awful over the airwaves! FYI, I have used the VX-150's ( not a narrow band APPROVED radio) on NB systems and  they sound great! (when programmed for NB) . But remember, even though no one could tell you were using one, it would be naughty to do so! You should go out and buy a new $1900.00 hand-held as soon as they decide where we will have bandwidth.

Capt. Lord

[arajca]

I am sure that hand-helds over modulating sound awful over the airwaves! FYI, I have used the VX-150's ( not a narrow band APPROVED radio) on NB systems and  they sound great! (when programmed for NB) . But remember, even though no one could tell you were using one, it would be naughty to do so! You should go out and buy a new $1900.00 hand-held as soon as they decide where we will have bandwidth.

Capt. Lord

Or you could just get a $350.00 radio instaed of the $1900.

[Eclipse]

I am sure that hand-helds over modulating sound awful over the airwaves! FYI, I have used the VX-150's ( not a narrow band APPROVED radio) on NB systems and  they sound great! (when programmed for NB) . But remember, even though no one could tell you were using one, it would be naughty to do so! You should go out and buy a new $1900.00 hand-held as soon as they decide where we will have bandwidth.

Capt. Lord

Well, unless they actually SEE the radio.

You could also submit a request to the WING DC and be issued one at no cost. I received mine Sunday.  Its big, heavy, and appears to be essentially bullet proof.

In all seriousness, there are nearly 100 different narrowband approved radios on the NTC page, many of them significantly less expensive the the EF Johnsons people keep harping on. The VX-180, for example, goes about $250ish when you can find them.

The issue with many of them is that they are not wide-band compliant, so you can't just go out an buy a new radio for today, and have it also  work tomorrow. You won't be able to use it until NB is implemented.

Its disappointing that the venerable VX-150 drops off the list, but kay-sara-sara.

[Major Lord]

Although there are a few "inexpensive" NTIA NB compliant radios out there, I think it would be imprudent to buy one, since,to the best of my knowledge, none of these are APCO 25 capable. Since interoperability will eventually force our hand, we will be going APCO sooner or later, and you will have a paper weight for CAP purposes. The days of member owned radios are going fast! Hell, lets just use Nextels!

Capt. Lord

[connelly]

Actualy the way the regs are if you own a radio that was complient pre 2006 before Jan 1 06 and it is not post 06 complient you can use it untill it breaks.

Sorry, everything I use is grandfathered in. (Icom F50 - personal, Vertex VX-800 - squadron)

There is no such thing as a "grandfathered" radio - it is either compliant, or not, and they keep changing the list.

Just as an FYI to everyone, the USAF is issuing hundreds if not thousands of radios.  You might be surprised to find that your Wing DC's office or secure storage has no place to walk because of all the boxes.

The key is whether he will actually issue it.  In our case, we had to ask several times, like a lot of times. 

I mean, a lot....   


Edit: Just as a side note, I went and checked and both radios above are on the current compliant list, if placed in service before 01/06, but are still showing "TBD" if placed in service after 01/06, so I guess that could be considered "grandfathered".

Notice: Radios meeting the "Narrowband Pre 1/06", but failing to meet or not having been tested to the "Narrowband Post 1/06" standards may continue to be used until the end of their life cycle, if acquired or placed in service prior to Jan 2006 (Ref: 47 CFR 300 5.3.5.2, Effective Dates).  "N/A" in the "Narrowband Compliant Post 1/06" column indicates the radio was not tested to the New Standards by the manufacturer.

What is really unfair on this is that the list changed mid-year last year, and radios listed as fully compliant, such as the HT1000, were dropped to the "pre 01/06" category.  I have members who bought radios, only to find they couldn't use them.  When we asked NHQ, they said "well, who can say when they were "put in service"? 

Um, the license docs?  And in states that have 'By the book" DC's that's a REAL problem.

[Eclipse]

Although there are a few "inexpensive" NTIA NB compliant radios out there, I think it would be imprudent to buy one, since,to the best of my knowledge, none of these are APCO 25 capable. Since interoperability will eventually force our hand, we will be going APCO sooner or later, and you will have a paper weight for CAP purposes. The days of member owned radios are going fast! Hell, lets just use Nextels!

Capt. Lord

On the P25, its just that corporate funds can't be spent on non-p25. There's still plenty of great radios available without it, and it'll be a LONG time before we actually need p25, or use it in any meaningful way.

Digital is nice, I suppose, but unless every player is p25, which they won't be for a while, its useless, and its not really any more secure without encryption. We were playing with it last night - its real annoying to jump to P25 and broadcast on channels with people listening in w/ analog radios.

And in ES, the way we do it (today), encryption is more of a liability than an asset. Nothing we do needs to be "secret" and the risk of have your radio futz in the field, losing its keys and losing comms is worse than
having the press hear where the "soft tacos" were found.

We can't even keep our radios programmed at the basic level right now, Lord help us when the Wing DC's get the keys and won't tell anyone or send them out because of "FOUO".

[lordmonar]

I am sure that hand-helds over modulating sound awful over the airwaves! FYI, I have used the VX-150's ( not a narrow band APPROVED radio) on NB systems and  they sound great! (when programmed for NB) . But remember, even though no one could tell you were using one, it would be naughty to do so! You should go out and buy a new $1900.00 hand-held as soon as they decide where we will have bandwidth.

Capt. Lord

You have to get an operating permit to use personal owned radios on CAP Freqs.  The wing Comm Director is supposed to check for compliance before issuing one of those (and I would assume the same thing for LE and Fire Department types as well).  So if everyone is doing their job right you would not be able to do that.

[Matt]

I am sure that hand-helds over modulating sound awful over the airwaves! FYI, I have used the VX-150's ( not a narrow band APPROVED radio) on NB systems and  they sound great! (when programmed for NB) . But remember, even though no one could tell you were using one, it would be naughty to do so! You should go out and buy a new $1900.00 hand-held as soon as they decide where we will have bandwidth.

Capt. Lord

My question is, can the narrowband hear you?  The theoretical side of things would be no, because when the radio begins to distance and it's wave starts to deter from the actual frequency they shouldn't, hence why we're taking steps together, not just one then 5, then 10, etc...

[SarDragon]

My question is, can the narrowband hear you?  The theoretical side of things would be no, because when the radio begins to distance and it's wave starts to deter from the actual frequency they shouldn't, hence why we're taking steps together, not just one then 5, then 10, etc...

Huh? Frequency doesn't change as a function of distance. If it did, then HF wouldn't work very well.

The wide band and narrow band folks can hear each other, but not very well.

[arajca]

My question is, can the narrowband hear you?  The theoretical side of things would be no, because when the radio begins to distance and it's wave starts to deter from the actual frequency they shouldn't, hence why we're taking steps together, not just one then 5, then 10, etc...

Huh? Frequency doesn't change as a function of distance. If it did, then HF wouldn't work very well.

The wide band and narrow band folks can hear each other, but not very well.

Actually, the wide band folks can hear the narrow band folks just fine, and usually the NB'rs can hear the WB'rs fine as well with good equipment. Some of the older modified ham radios are not picked as well on the NB, but I haven't had a problem with it. I programmed my F50 as NB only on CAP channels and it works fine.

A good comparision I've used is the road. The difference between NB and WB is how wide the lanes are. WIthin the lane, the car (signal) can weave, it's still legal as long as it stays in the lane. The NB lane is just 'narrower' than the WB lane. Using the same road, making narrower lanes allows for more cars to use the road.