Would you stay in CAP if there were no Emergency Services & Operations?

[MIKE]

I think that is a major problem... I would much rather see cadets involved in field craft and military skills training as part of the CP, than to be so focused on the ES mission.  IMO cadets should focus on Cadet Programs, not ES.

[Monty]

How about it?  Would you stay in CAP if there were no ES function of the CAP?   Would helping cadets  be enough for you?

No.

[Tubacap]

As a teacher, I work with students everyday all day long.  As a band director, I am at work teaching at 0700 and usually am not back till 2130 on any given night.  My point is that Civil Air Patrol, for me is a service to my country that I can do with other adults.  I am the Deputy Commander of Cadets, and I enjoy that position, but it is purely a staff position where I make sure the cadets get the proper care and attention that they need to grow and mature.  If ES went away, I wouldn't be around for very long.  Working with youth is a very rewarding experience, but those of us who do it everyday all day long, need adult interaction doing things that benefit the greater good of humanity.

[DNall]

I am the Deputy Commander of Cadets, and I enjoy that position, but it is purely a staff position where I make sure the cadets get the proper care and attention that they need to grow and mature. 

If that's the case, if you're babysitting, then you are doing it wrong. Squadrons set a vision, break it down into lon & short-term goals, those are broken into dept objectives... as deputy cdr for cadets you are solely responsible for achieving those objectives. You should be telling your cadet staff what quaterly objectives the program WILL meet, what parameters they MUST work in, and to what standards the training MUST be conducted. You then set a series of action deadlines in which they have to secure your okay to proceed. You then provide engaged oversight to ensure the standards are met & the timeline is followed to the defined objective points. You also run your own staff & coordinate support by other adults so they have guidlines & plenty advanced notice with reminders. You do a sitrep brief monthly for at least the Sq CC if not more. And finally you are an active player as part of senior staff in developing & implementing the next set of goals. By definition & reality it is a line command position & you should be treating it like that. If you do, I think you & your cadets will both find it a lot more rewarding & they you'll set an example of how to do a job that other adults will pick up on.

[Eclipse]

I am the Deputy Commander of Cadets, and I enjoy that position, but it is purely a staff position where I make sure the cadets get the proper care and attention that they need to grow and mature.

If that's the case, if you're babysitting, then you are doing it wrong. Squadrons set a vision, break it down into lon & short-term goals, those are broken into dept objectives... as deputy cdr for cadets you are solely responsible for achieving those objectives. You should be telling your cadet staff what quaterly objectives the program WILL meet, what parameters they MUST work in, and to what standards the training MUST be conducted. You then set a series of action deadlines in which they have to secure your okay to proceed. You then provide engaged oversight to ensure the standards are met & the timeline is followed to the defined objective points. You also run your own staff & coordinate support by other adults so they have guidlines & plenty advanced notice with reminders. You do a sitrep brief monthly for at least the Sq CC if not more. And finally you are an active player as part of senior staff in developing & implementing the next set of goals. By definition & reality it is a line command position & you should be treating it like that. If you do, I think you & your cadets will both find it a lot more rewarding & they you'll set an example of how to do a job that other adults will pick up on.

100% agree, and you should also be working with the CDS to insure that the cadets are integrated into the unit as a whole, and that the CP is doing its part to achieve the greater goals and plans for the unit.

And to go back to the original question, I would not be long in CAP without ES.  I originally joined for that, and it is where I get my most >personal< satisfaction.  However I also firmly believe that I joined the organization for the ENTIRE mission, which is why I am so active in the CP, and enjoy my time there a lot.

I joined the CAP as a whole, and if ES was removed, it would not be the same organization. This is more than just 1/3.  W/o ES you have few, if any planes for AE, few pilots to fly the few planes you have left, and probably 1/3-1/2 of the cadets.  The majority of the really active seniors in (ILWG anyway) are ES-types who also participate in the CP.

Removing ES would gut the organization.

[Tubacap]

In response to DNall's post, I do actually accomplish all those things.  I may not have been clear in my initial statement.  I get my personal satisfaction for helping out youth through my everday job.  I do have some sense of that in CAP, and try to integrate cadets as much as possible into all the missions of CAP.  In fact, whenever our unit sends a ground team out, it is usually cadets and myself and the commander or ES officer.

The point is that the cadets themselves are not what I am here for, the work and the opportunity to serve my country in a truly unique organization is.

[bosshawk]

Let an old guy chime in with 1.5 cents worth.  without ES and CD, I have absolutely no incentive to spend 500 hours a year and over $1500 per year to work the AE and Cadet programs.  As a pilot of almost 48 years, I have an ingrained love of aviation and I think that I show that every day.  I never had kids, so I have little incentive to deal with them, although I find that most CAP cadets are a cut above the usual teenager.  I did spend 12 years in the West Point admissions program and I REALLY enjoyed that.

No ES, no Paul.

[flyguy06]

What makes CAP a unique and rewarding experience is the Emergency Services mission.  Without it, we're just Boy Scouts with airplanes.

I disagree with that statement. The cadet program offers leadership development, military customs and curteousies, and military aviation prep. The Boy Scouts dont offer that. Boy Scouts dont have acces to Air Force pilots and bases like CAP cadets do. So,no It is definantly not the same. Plus Boy Scouts dont have acces to airplanes .
It was also said that wothout ES there would be no airplanes. I definantly disagree wih that. Glider O-rides,power O-rides would still take place. As well as flight scholorships and in fact if we got rid of ES we could probaly have more powered flight academies and special activities. And like I said at first the access and networking we do with the Air Force such as college AFROTC and the USAFA cant be beat. I mean We have access to the USAFA Liasion officers that can give our cadets first hand information on what it takes to get into the USAFA. Boy Scouts dont have that.

[DNall]

The point is that the cadets themselves are not what I am here for, the work and the opportunity to serve my country in a truly unique organization is.

If that's the case, then I'd encourage you to recruit & transition the job to the most "highspeed professional officer" type you can find.

I do appreciate ES, but it's BS. I've turned off tons of ELTs & got no desire to see a UDF mission again, but I'll turn out & do it for now just cause there's no one else. That's crap though. If we were actually saving lives then yeah I'd be more into it, but that stuff is few & far between. I get no satisfaction from it. Not all that excited by flying either, just a functional thing to me most of the time.

[RiverAux]

I do appreciate ES, but it's BS. I've turned off tons of ELTs & got no desire to see a UDF mission again, but I'll turn out & do it for now just cause there's no one else. That's crap though. If we were actually saving lives then yeah I'd be more into it, but that stuff is few & far between. I get no satisfaction from it. Not all that excited by flying either, just a functional thing to me most of the time.

No one ever said that every job that needed to be done would be fun, exciting, or even satisfying.  If the AF (i.e., CAP) wasn't turning off those ELTs some other government agency would, so we're still helping our country in one way or another even if it isn't a critical AF mission. 

[sarmed1]

Likely not......I enjoy the intermingling of both programs.  I have always credited the cadet program with being a large and very good influence in my military career, but over the past few years I have become rather dissatisfied with cadet programs and have been focused mostly on ES (only where they overlap do I do my thing to try and encourage good cadeting like uniform wear, leadership, the usually attention to detail stuff that also works well in ES land)
USAF reserve satisfies my need to be military like.....so.........likely I would be gone to the civilian SAR side, if I maintained any interest in CAP it would be as a CAP-RAP guy (in fact active participation in the ES program is the only reason I havent done the dual Cat A reservist and CAP-RAP)

mk

[Eclipse]

The point is that the cadets themselves are not what I am here for, the work and the opportunity to serve my country in a truly unique organization is.

If that's the case, then I'd encourage you to recruit & transition the job to the most "highspeed professional officer" type you can find.

I do appreciate ES, but it's BS. I've turned off tons of ELTs & got no desire to see a UDF mission again, but I'll turn out & do it for now just cause there's no one else. That's crap though. If we were actually saving lives then yeah I'd be more into it, but that stuff is few & far between. I get no satisfaction from it. Not all that excited by flying either, just a functional thing to me most of the time.

The fact that YOUR personal experience has not included more in ES than "crap" doesn't mean it is like that in other parts of the country, nor does it mean our ES program is "BS".


The other thing to consider here is that there are only so many hours in a week.

CAP is unique in that it allows me to serve in one organization with a dual role - emergency services and building tomorrow's leaders.

There is no other organization that does the same thing.  So absent of CAP, if I wanted to be able to keep my  "rescue groove" on, and still be involved with a youth program, I would have to join at least two separate organizations, which is less time on both.

Without ES, the only reason for membership in CAP would be as a support leader for the cadets.
In CAP today there is a full legitimate reason for adults to be members with or without children in the program.

"Glowing exceptions" aside, I think the majority of us would agree its a little creepy when people join as Boy Scout leaders or similar and have no kids in the program.

[lordmonar]

"Glowing exceptions" aside, I think the majority of us would agree its a little creepy when people join as Boy Scout leaders or similar and have no kids in the program.

Not if you know anything about the concept of service.  I my self was a childless scout leader (my son is now a wolf scout) but I never stopped being a scout leader.

Also....many child molesters are in fact fathers themselves....so don't single out the or characterise childless leaders as being some sort of liability.

[Eclipse]

"Glowing exceptions" aside, I think the majority of us would agree its a little creepy when people join as Boy Scout leaders or similar and have no kids in the program.

Not if you know anything about the concept of service.  I my self was a childless scout leader (my son is now a wolf scout) but I never stopped being a scout leader.

Also....many child molesters are in fact fathers themselves....so don't single out the or characterise childless leaders as being some sort of liability.

You had a kid in the program, that's not what I cited...

[CAP428]

How about it?  Would you stay in CAP if there were no ES function of the CAP?   Would helping cadets  be enough for you?


My answer is that I would stay because I enjoy seeing the youth learn and grow in a positive way.  For me CAP is all about the youth.

Short answer:  yes I would stay

Longer answer:  You say "Would helping cadets be enough for you?"

and Eclipse said

Without ES, the only reason for membership in CAP would be as a support leader for the cadets.
In CAP today there is a full legitimate reason for adults to be members with or without children in the program.

That is not the only two things CAP does, emergency services and cadet stuff.

You would still have the  entire aviation program to do, and you could still actively support the Air Force through other non-combatant needs.

If you got rid of ES, there still would be plenty to do other than help cadets.

[Major Carrales]

How can you have a "Civil Air Patrol," that does not actually "Patrol?"

The organization without ES would have to be called... the "Civil Air Cadets."

[CAP428]

How can you have a "Civil Air Patrol," that does not actually "Patrol?"

The organization without ES would have to be called... the "Civil Air Cadets."

Noooooooooo.......because the aerospace program is not limited to cadets.  Therefore, you would still have seniors that could be involved in an aerospace program of some sort, no matter whether they were "patrolling" or not.  Also, "patrol" does not have to be ES-specific.  For example, we could still "patrol" the border, since that is more of a reconnaisance or whatever you want to call it type mission.  It's not exactly ES, because it's not like we're landing and giving canteens of water to parched illegals.  We are merely reporting what we are seeing.  Therefore, that would still be a mission.

And besides, like I said, ES is not the only non-combatant service we can provide for the Air Force, so you would still have all that to do.


Besides, why is this even a topic?  it's not like people are going to stop getting lost in the woods, and it's not like people will stop crashing airplanes.

[Psicorp]

How can you have a "Civil Air Patrol," that does not actually "Patrol?"

The organization without ES would have to be called... the "Civil Air Cadets."

Besides, why is this even a topic?  it's not like people are going to stop getting lost in the woods, and it's not like people will stop crashing airplanes.

No, but we could stop getting called.

This is why it's important to train, train well, publicize the training, and occassionally pound the pavement and actually talk with governmental offices and other agencies.

[CAP428]

Besides, why is this even a topic?  it's not like people are going to stop getting lost in the woods, and it's not like people will stop crashing airplanes.

No, but we could stop getting called.

This is why it's important to train, train well, publicize the training, and occassionally pound the pavement and actually talk with governmental offices and other agencies.

True statement.   

[lordmonar]

"Glowing exceptions" aside, I think the majority of us would agree its a little creepy when people join as Boy Scout leaders or similar and have no kids in the program.

Not if you know anything about the concept of service.  I my self was a childless scout leader (my son is now a wolf scout) but I never stopped being a scout leader.

Also....many child molesters are in fact fathers themselves....so don't single out the or characterise childless leaders as being some sort of liability.

You had a kid in the program, that's not what I cited...

Read my entire post....I was a scout leader before I was a father.