Would you stay in CAP if there were no Emergency Services & Operations?

[desert rat]

How about it?  Would you stay in CAP if there were no ES function of the CAP?   Would helping cadets  be enough for you?


My answer is that I would stay because I enjoy seeing the youth learn and grow in a positive way.  For me CAP is all about the youth.

[carnold1836]

I would stay but I know many cadets that would not be here. They love the ES side of things. So with out ES, not only would there be less senior officers but fewer cadets as well.

[flyguy06]

I would stay but I know many cadets that would not be here. They love the ES side of things. So with out ES, not only would there be less senior officers but fewer cadets as well.
[/quote
I disagree with that statement. It all depends on wher eyou are. In my area, most youth join CAP because they want to learn to fly. Not too many of my cadets like going to the woods and eating MRE's. They love all things aviation though.

[Pylon]

No ES?  I'd still be in CAP, absolutely.

I'm in CAP now because I joined as a cadet.  I know firsthand the positive influences CAP can bring into a young person's life, and I don't think any number of years of volunteering for the organization would "pay that back."   I'm a Deputy Commander for Cadets now and I find it a very rewarding experience.

Can ES be rewarding, too?  Absolutely.  But taking one piece away from CAP, at least for this person, would not turn off still wanting to be a part of fueling CAP's great potential to serve others.

[RiverAux]

Unlikely.  I'm a former cadet myself and value the program but I doubt I would have rejoined as an adult if it was just the cadet program.  I really admire the adults working with the cadets as they are undoubtedly the hardest working seniors in CAP but I wouldn't be one of them.  If I were to join as a leader of a youth organization, I would probably have gone back to the Boy Scouts (less paperwork hassle than in CAP, even if you drop ES/Ops).   

[DNall]

I'd still be here too, BUT I don't think CAP would. I don't think what we do in CP & AE is worth enough budget to administer the program. If we upped our costs like osme other programs do there wouldn't be anything left. Likewise, ES alone isn't worth the cost it takes to run it. It takes all the parts combined to create something that's worthy of budget dollars.

[JohnKachenmeister]

What makes CAP a unique and rewarding experience is the Emergency Services mission.  Without it, we're just Boy Scouts with airplanes.

There is something that is deeply satisfying in watching cadets, who require a written pass to go to the bathroom during the week, develop into comptent field troops and leaders.  ES gives them a "Real World" mission to focus on, and enhances the leadership training.

I remember one time we had an actual SAR, and my cadet squadron was preparing to move to a mission base that was being set up about 30 miles away.  The cadets were being cadets, chatting and horsing around.  I told my cadet commander that I wanted an equipment and document check done within 30 minutes.  He (a C/Ssgt then) turned to the cadets and shouted:  "OK, people, this is an actual, quit screwing around... break out your 101 cards and stuff, and I'm checking your packs in 10 minutes.  Get your canteens filled now!"

Within 15 minutes, the ES qualified members were assembled with all their gear in formation, ready for inspection.  I could not help but be very proud of them.

Would I stay in?  Probably.  Would anybody else?  I don't know.

[captrncap]

I joined because of the cadet program. I would most definitely stay.

If ES was no longer part of CAP's missions, then I would like the cadet program to model its self a little more closely to other cadet programs especially more interaction between services (Army, Coast Guard, Navy).

[MIKE]

Yes, I did not join just to do ES.

[Lamh Dearg]

What makes CAP a unique and rewarding experience is the Emergency Services mission.  Without it, we're just Boy Scouts with airplanes.

Without the ES mission, there wouldn't be any airplanes....

[carnold1836]

What makes CAP a unique and rewarding experience is the Emergency Services mission.  Without it, we're just Boy Scouts with airplanes.

Without the ES mission, there wouldn't be any airplanes....

Not necessarily, we would just have a whole lot less.

[lordmonar]

With out the ES mission we might as well just convert over to the ACA (they still don't have an air component).

[A.Member]

Absolutely, I would stay in CAP.  For me, the main attraction of the organization were the cadet programs (our real bread and butter) and aerospace education.  The camaraderie/hanger flying that occurs among the officers is also a significant factor in sticking around. 

[A.Member]

What makes CAP a unique and rewarding experience is the Emergency Services mission.  Without it, we're just Boy Scouts with airplanes.

Without the ES mission, there wouldn't be any airplanes....

Not necessarily.  Why do we have gliders?  They don't serve an ES purpose.  We may not have as great a need for airplanes (and all their equipment) but they would still be around. 

[Chris Jacobs]

I would stay.  but i think the cadet program would need a big boost.  there would need to be more opportunities for cadets to get out into the real world and put their skills to use.  i think some squadrons do a good job of this, but others are really lacking in challenging leadership activities.  AE would also have to become more diverse.

[DNall]

What makes CAP a unique and rewarding experience is the Emergency Services mission.  Without it, we're just Boy Scouts with airplanes.

Without the ES mission, there wouldn't be any airplanes....

Got a whole lot of tow planes that aren't configured for ES missions at all, and of course gliders. Anyone ever flown a grid in a glider?  There'd be some, clearly a lot less.

[RiverAux]

Yes, but how many of those gliders are there?  I don't think there is one within 750-1000 miles of me, so I'm not sure they are a good counter-argument.

I very seriously doubt there would be any corporate-owned aircraft if we only did cadet programs.  Most likely we would use EAA to do o-rides or use member-owned aircraft. 

[A.Member]

Yes, but how many of those gliders are there?  I don't think there is one within 750-1000 miles of me, so I'm not sure they are a good counter-argument.

We've got several.  What's more is there are far fewer glider pilots than there are powered pilots.  Yet, the program endures with a decent amount of interest. 

[Chris Jacobs]

There is a glider in Oregon and almost every cadet gets a chance to fly in it if they want to.

[SAR-EMT1]

I would stay. However- not a single cadet in my unit would  So..Im not sure what Id be doing...  twiddling my thumbs perhaps.

[MIKE]

I think that is a major problem... I would much rather see cadets involved in field craft and military skills training as part of the CP, than to be so focused on the ES mission.  IMO cadets should focus on Cadet Programs, not ES.

[Monty]

How about it?  Would you stay in CAP if there were no ES function of the CAP?   Would helping cadets  be enough for you?

No.

[Tubacap]

As a teacher, I work with students everyday all day long.  As a band director, I am at work teaching at 0700 and usually am not back till 2130 on any given night.  My point is that Civil Air Patrol, for me is a service to my country that I can do with other adults.  I am the Deputy Commander of Cadets, and I enjoy that position, but it is purely a staff position where I make sure the cadets get the proper care and attention that they need to grow and mature.  If ES went away, I wouldn't be around for very long.  Working with youth is a very rewarding experience, but those of us who do it everyday all day long, need adult interaction doing things that benefit the greater good of humanity.

[DNall]

I am the Deputy Commander of Cadets, and I enjoy that position, but it is purely a staff position where I make sure the cadets get the proper care and attention that they need to grow and mature. 

If that's the case, if you're babysitting, then you are doing it wrong. Squadrons set a vision, break it down into lon & short-term goals, those are broken into dept objectives... as deputy cdr for cadets you are solely responsible for achieving those objectives. You should be telling your cadet staff what quaterly objectives the program WILL meet, what parameters they MUST work in, and to what standards the training MUST be conducted. You then set a series of action deadlines in which they have to secure your okay to proceed. You then provide engaged oversight to ensure the standards are met & the timeline is followed to the defined objective points. You also run your own staff & coordinate support by other adults so they have guidlines & plenty advanced notice with reminders. You do a sitrep brief monthly for at least the Sq CC if not more. And finally you are an active player as part of senior staff in developing & implementing the next set of goals. By definition & reality it is a line command position & you should be treating it like that. If you do, I think you & your cadets will both find it a lot more rewarding & they you'll set an example of how to do a job that other adults will pick up on.

[Eclipse]

I am the Deputy Commander of Cadets, and I enjoy that position, but it is purely a staff position where I make sure the cadets get the proper care and attention that they need to grow and mature.

If that's the case, if you're babysitting, then you are doing it wrong. Squadrons set a vision, break it down into lon & short-term goals, those are broken into dept objectives... as deputy cdr for cadets you are solely responsible for achieving those objectives. You should be telling your cadet staff what quaterly objectives the program WILL meet, what parameters they MUST work in, and to what standards the training MUST be conducted. You then set a series of action deadlines in which they have to secure your okay to proceed. You then provide engaged oversight to ensure the standards are met & the timeline is followed to the defined objective points. You also run your own staff & coordinate support by other adults so they have guidlines & plenty advanced notice with reminders. You do a sitrep brief monthly for at least the Sq CC if not more. And finally you are an active player as part of senior staff in developing & implementing the next set of goals. By definition & reality it is a line command position & you should be treating it like that. If you do, I think you & your cadets will both find it a lot more rewarding & they you'll set an example of how to do a job that other adults will pick up on.

100% agree, and you should also be working with the CDS to insure that the cadets are integrated into the unit as a whole, and that the CP is doing its part to achieve the greater goals and plans for the unit.

And to go back to the original question, I would not be long in CAP without ES.  I originally joined for that, and it is where I get my most >personal< satisfaction.  However I also firmly believe that I joined the organization for the ENTIRE mission, which is why I am so active in the CP, and enjoy my time there a lot.

I joined the CAP as a whole, and if ES was removed, it would not be the same organization. This is more than just 1/3.  W/o ES you have few, if any planes for AE, few pilots to fly the few planes you have left, and probably 1/3-1/2 of the cadets.  The majority of the really active seniors in (ILWG anyway) are ES-types who also participate in the CP.

Removing ES would gut the organization.

[Tubacap]

In response to DNall's post, I do actually accomplish all those things.  I may not have been clear in my initial statement.  I get my personal satisfaction for helping out youth through my everday job.  I do have some sense of that in CAP, and try to integrate cadets as much as possible into all the missions of CAP.  In fact, whenever our unit sends a ground team out, it is usually cadets and myself and the commander or ES officer.

The point is that the cadets themselves are not what I am here for, the work and the opportunity to serve my country in a truly unique organization is.

[bosshawk]

Let an old guy chime in with 1.5 cents worth.  without ES and CD, I have absolutely no incentive to spend 500 hours a year and over $1500 per year to work the AE and Cadet programs.  As a pilot of almost 48 years, I have an ingrained love of aviation and I think that I show that every day.  I never had kids, so I have little incentive to deal with them, although I find that most CAP cadets are a cut above the usual teenager.  I did spend 12 years in the West Point admissions program and I REALLY enjoyed that.

No ES, no Paul.

[flyguy06]

What makes CAP a unique and rewarding experience is the Emergency Services mission.  Without it, we're just Boy Scouts with airplanes.

I disagree with that statement. The cadet program offers leadership development, military customs and curteousies, and military aviation prep. The Boy Scouts dont offer that. Boy Scouts dont have acces to Air Force pilots and bases like CAP cadets do. So,no It is definantly not the same. Plus Boy Scouts dont have acces to airplanes .
It was also said that wothout ES there would be no airplanes. I definantly disagree wih that. Glider O-rides,power O-rides would still take place. As well as flight scholorships and in fact if we got rid of ES we could probaly have more powered flight academies and special activities. And like I said at first the access and networking we do with the Air Force such as college AFROTC and the USAFA cant be beat. I mean We have access to the USAFA Liasion officers that can give our cadets first hand information on what it takes to get into the USAFA. Boy Scouts dont have that.

[DNall]

The point is that the cadets themselves are not what I am here for, the work and the opportunity to serve my country in a truly unique organization is.

If that's the case, then I'd encourage you to recruit & transition the job to the most "highspeed professional officer" type you can find.

I do appreciate ES, but it's BS. I've turned off tons of ELTs & got no desire to see a UDF mission again, but I'll turn out & do it for now just cause there's no one else. That's crap though. If we were actually saving lives then yeah I'd be more into it, but that stuff is few & far between. I get no satisfaction from it. Not all that excited by flying either, just a functional thing to me most of the time.

[RiverAux]

I do appreciate ES, but it's BS. I've turned off tons of ELTs & got no desire to see a UDF mission again, but I'll turn out & do it for now just cause there's no one else. That's crap though. If we were actually saving lives then yeah I'd be more into it, but that stuff is few & far between. I get no satisfaction from it. Not all that excited by flying either, just a functional thing to me most of the time.

No one ever said that every job that needed to be done would be fun, exciting, or even satisfying.  If the AF (i.e., CAP) wasn't turning off those ELTs some other government agency would, so we're still helping our country in one way or another even if it isn't a critical AF mission. 

[sarmed1]

Likely not......I enjoy the intermingling of both programs.  I have always credited the cadet program with being a large and very good influence in my military career, but over the past few years I have become rather dissatisfied with cadet programs and have been focused mostly on ES (only where they overlap do I do my thing to try and encourage good cadeting like uniform wear, leadership, the usually attention to detail stuff that also works well in ES land)
USAF reserve satisfies my need to be military like.....so.........likely I would be gone to the civilian SAR side, if I maintained any interest in CAP it would be as a CAP-RAP guy (in fact active participation in the ES program is the only reason I havent done the dual Cat A reservist and CAP-RAP)

mk

[Eclipse]

The point is that the cadets themselves are not what I am here for, the work and the opportunity to serve my country in a truly unique organization is.

If that's the case, then I'd encourage you to recruit & transition the job to the most "highspeed professional officer" type you can find.

I do appreciate ES, but it's BS. I've turned off tons of ELTs & got no desire to see a UDF mission again, but I'll turn out & do it for now just cause there's no one else. That's crap though. If we were actually saving lives then yeah I'd be more into it, but that stuff is few & far between. I get no satisfaction from it. Not all that excited by flying either, just a functional thing to me most of the time.

The fact that YOUR personal experience has not included more in ES than "crap" doesn't mean it is like that in other parts of the country, nor does it mean our ES program is "BS".


The other thing to consider here is that there are only so many hours in a week.

CAP is unique in that it allows me to serve in one organization with a dual role - emergency services and building tomorrow's leaders.

There is no other organization that does the same thing.  So absent of CAP, if I wanted to be able to keep my  "rescue groove" on, and still be involved with a youth program, I would have to join at least two separate organizations, which is less time on both.

Without ES, the only reason for membership in CAP would be as a support leader for the cadets.
In CAP today there is a full legitimate reason for adults to be members with or without children in the program.

"Glowing exceptions" aside, I think the majority of us would agree its a little creepy when people join as Boy Scout leaders or similar and have no kids in the program.

[lordmonar]

"Glowing exceptions" aside, I think the majority of us would agree its a little creepy when people join as Boy Scout leaders or similar and have no kids in the program.

Not if you know anything about the concept of service.  I my self was a childless scout leader (my son is now a wolf scout) but I never stopped being a scout leader.

Also....many child molesters are in fact fathers themselves....so don't single out the or characterise childless leaders as being some sort of liability.

[Eclipse]

"Glowing exceptions" aside, I think the majority of us would agree its a little creepy when people join as Boy Scout leaders or similar and have no kids in the program.

Not if you know anything about the concept of service.  I my self was a childless scout leader (my son is now a wolf scout) but I never stopped being a scout leader.

Also....many child molesters are in fact fathers themselves....so don't single out the or characterise childless leaders as being some sort of liability.

You had a kid in the program, that's not what I cited...

[CAP428]

How about it?  Would you stay in CAP if there were no ES function of the CAP?   Would helping cadets  be enough for you?


My answer is that I would stay because I enjoy seeing the youth learn and grow in a positive way.  For me CAP is all about the youth.

Short answer:  yes I would stay

Longer answer:  You say "Would helping cadets be enough for you?"

and Eclipse said

Without ES, the only reason for membership in CAP would be as a support leader for the cadets.
In CAP today there is a full legitimate reason for adults to be members with or without children in the program.

That is not the only two things CAP does, emergency services and cadet stuff.

You would still have the  entire aviation program to do, and you could still actively support the Air Force through other non-combatant needs.

If you got rid of ES, there still would be plenty to do other than help cadets.

[Major Carrales]

How can you have a "Civil Air Patrol," that does not actually "Patrol?"

The organization without ES would have to be called... the "Civil Air Cadets."

[CAP428]

How can you have a "Civil Air Patrol," that does not actually "Patrol?"

The organization without ES would have to be called... the "Civil Air Cadets."

Noooooooooo.......because the aerospace program is not limited to cadets.  Therefore, you would still have seniors that could be involved in an aerospace program of some sort, no matter whether they were "patrolling" or not.  Also, "patrol" does not have to be ES-specific.  For example, we could still "patrol" the border, since that is more of a reconnaisance or whatever you want to call it type mission.  It's not exactly ES, because it's not like we're landing and giving canteens of water to parched illegals.  We are merely reporting what we are seeing.  Therefore, that would still be a mission.

And besides, like I said, ES is not the only non-combatant service we can provide for the Air Force, so you would still have all that to do.


Besides, why is this even a topic?  it's not like people are going to stop getting lost in the woods, and it's not like people will stop crashing airplanes.

[Psicorp]

How can you have a "Civil Air Patrol," that does not actually "Patrol?"

The organization without ES would have to be called... the "Civil Air Cadets."

Besides, why is this even a topic?  it's not like people are going to stop getting lost in the woods, and it's not like people will stop crashing airplanes.

No, but we could stop getting called.

This is why it's important to train, train well, publicize the training, and occassionally pound the pavement and actually talk with governmental offices and other agencies.

[CAP428]

Besides, why is this even a topic?  it's not like people are going to stop getting lost in the woods, and it's not like people will stop crashing airplanes.

No, but we could stop getting called.

This is why it's important to train, train well, publicize the training, and occassionally pound the pavement and actually talk with governmental offices and other agencies.

True statement.   

[lordmonar]

"Glowing exceptions" aside, I think the majority of us would agree its a little creepy when people join as Boy Scout leaders or similar and have no kids in the program.

Not if you know anything about the concept of service.  I my self was a childless scout leader (my son is now a wolf scout) but I never stopped being a scout leader.

Also....many child molesters are in fact fathers themselves....so don't single out the or characterise childless leaders as being some sort of liability.

You had a kid in the program, that's not what I cited...

Read my entire post....I was a scout leader before I was a father.

[Eclipse]

"Glowing exceptions" aside, I think the majority of us would agree its a little creepy when people join as Boy Scout leaders or similar and have no kids in the program.

Not if you know anything about the concept of service.  I my self was a childless scout leader (my son is now a wolf scout) but I never stopped being a scout leader.

Also....many child molesters are in fact fathers themselves....so don't single out the or characterise childless leaders as being some sort of liability.

You had a kid in the program, that's not what I cited...

Read my entire post....I was a scout leader before I was a father.

I hereby grant you "glowing exception" status, which you should have read into the original statement.
It is still creepy in general.

You lose ES, you lose the program. Period

[DNall]

I do appreciate ES, but it's BS. I've turned off tons of ELTs & got no desire to see a UDF mission again, but I'll turn out & do it for now just cause there's no one else. That's crap though. If we were actually saving lives then yeah I'd be more into it, but that stuff is few & far between. I get no satisfaction from it. Not all that excited by flying either, just a functional thing to me most of the time.

The fact that YOUR personal experience has not included more in ES than "crap" doesn't mean it is like that in other parts of the country, nor does it mean our ES program is "BS".

Actually I've been on 15 or so REDCAPs, including the find on one of those. I've ridden around in both CG & NG helicopters. Had the thunderbirds give pireps on a signal when we couldn't fly. Worked closely with life-flight & police dept helos. Worked with state & federal fixed wing on fires. Done I guess around 10 disasters from flood to tonado to hurricane. Climbed all over international freighters & multi-million dollar yatchs. I've seen & done a lot of cool stuff... then the new wore off.

I don't really like getting woke up at 3am for what is 99.995% chance a non-distress situation. And by the way I did 90% of that stuff in my first 3-4 years in the org, when missions flowed hard & fast I was in with a highspeed crew that couldn't get enough. Between the volume not being enough to incentivize me keeping current & overall not feeling like I'm making a significant difference in the world with these piss-ant missions, I'm just not personally motivated.

Far as the one org, they got fire & LE explorer programs, help with one of those at the volunteer fire dept & you're all set. I think you'll find as NIMS overtakes us & we make the adjustment that ES operators will have to spend significantly more time focused on that training, to the exclusion of things like cadet programs, and that barrier to entry will tend to keep cadet programs officers exclusive in their area.

[lordmonar]

I think you'll find as NIMS overtakes us & we make the adjustment that ES operators will have to spend significantly more time focused on that training, to the exclusion of things like cadet programs, and that barrier to entry will tend to keep cadet programs officers exclusive in their area.

And this is bad in what way?  CP and ES ARE seperate programs.  CP officers should be focusing on their area of expertise and ES officers should be focusing on training.

If the ES mission went away...I would say that there is a 50/50 chance that CAP would fold all together.  But it does not have to.  The CP does not really take all that money to run.  The Boy Scouts run a lot of programs with very little money.  Even if the USAF stopped funding the cadet program (but still continued supporting CAP the same way it supports BSA/GSA) we could still keep the programs going.  A lot of the NCSAs would have to be dropped and/or would cost a lot more but they could still be done.

I have a problem with you saying the ES mission is BS and at the same time talking about the doom and gloom of CAP if we don't get NIMS compliant.  Why get compliant if it all BS?  Even if we are NIMS compliant we will still be responding to a lot of false alarms, that will not change one bit.

On that same note....I think you have lost all credibilty on making any comments on CAP ES program with your comment "Between the volume not being enough to incentivize me keeping current & overall not feeling like I'm making a significant difference in the world with these piss-ant missions, I'm just not personally motivated. "

All missions are important...even the ones where the ELT is sitting on the ramp.  If you are too good for the "piss-ant missions", I don't want you on my mission base.  It is attitudes like that why we have so much trouble getting good trained crews in the first place.  Team members are just too good to spend all that time at the SAREXs....but they want to be called out for the missions, by golly.

I was on a Volunteer Fire Department and in the 30-40 calls I responded too only about 4-5 were actual fires.....but I responded to all of them and I was at all the training and meetings.

I have been ES qualified for about six months now and have not been called out on any missions yet (put on stand-by for one) but I go to each and every SAREX and do what ever job they want me to do....sign in, breifings, baby sitting cadets, what ever.  Why?  Because training makes you ready to do the job the USAF wants us to do and every job at the mission base is imporatant to the big machine and must be done right.

I'll keep working on staying trained and ready as an ES operator and still support the CP and AE programs.  It is possible to do both.

[flyerthom]

Most likely I'd transition to DMAT.

[DNall]

And this is bad in what way?  CP and ES ARE seperate programs.  CP officers should be focusing on their area of expertise and ES officers should be focusing on training.

Not at all, I think it's good. Officers in the military aren't expert in every field, just teh set of specialties around their own.

I think if you keep ES & cut cadets the program folds, and likewise if you keep cadets & cut ES the program folds. No part of the program is strong enough to stand alone, and that makes for some good things about CAP.

I have a problem with you saying the ES mission is BS and at the same time talking about the doom and gloom of CAP if we don't get NIMS compliant.  Why get compliant if it all BS?  Even if we are NIMS compliant we will still be responding to a lot of false alarms, that will not change one bit.

I don't have a doom & gloom attitude about NIMS or ES or much of anything. I've pointed out that we are in a bad place if we are non-compliant, and trending worse as long as we maintain that course, OR we can change course & get compliant which is hard but will revolutionize CAP in a good way (even if that scares a lot of people), and on the back side we become basically professional responders w/o the pay check, which is excellent. That's not doom & gloom, that's get off your butt before you get crushed & lets move out together motivational. If you don't like the way I advocate the position, well sorry.

All missions are important...even the ones where the ELT is sitting on the ramp.  If you are too good for the "piss-ant missions", I don't want you on my mission base.  It is attitudes like that why we have so much trouble getting good trained crews in the first place.  Team members are just too good to spend all that time at the SAREXs....but they want to be called out for the missions, by golly.

I didn't join for ES, I never wanted any part of ES from the begining, and still don't. What I have done & still do is out of obligation cause there's no one else locally & the Sq & are Gp need the qual'd & experienced people. So I'm willing to do that, BUT if someone else is qual'd & gunning to go then by all means send them & leave me alone. I think you'll find the reason it's hard ot get good crews is cause the best people need to feel like they are doing something critical to change the world & turining off an ELT once or twice a month isn't going to do that for them.

I have been ES qualified for about six months now and have not been called out on any missions yet (put on stand-by for one) but I go to each and every SAREX and do what ever job they want me to do....sign in, breifings, baby sitting cadets, what ever.  Why?  Because training makes you ready to do the job the USAF wants us to do and every job at the mission base is imporatant to the big machine and must be done right.

Of course that's right, and good for you doing your part. Hey man, when I was younger, ES wasn't really what I wanted to do, but I was all fired up about doing it anyway. Call me back when you got a few hundred missions under your belt & don't like it anymore. I'm not slighting people that do ES, hey more power to you. For me though, I've always been a cadet programs officer, that's why I joined & what I want to do.

I made what I think is a big contribution in ES, and then moved on to helping at a couple NCASEs & doing some pretty cool stuff for AE, and about four or five years in I became a competent officer & started to actually make a difference in CP. Now I'm starting to get a little fed up with that, not CP in general, but the amount of effort I put in for a relatively small number of people I get to impact. I think moving up echelons would be the answer there, and I'd like to work more in Professional Development too, but I'm about to get real busy here in a couple months & we'll have to see where the priorities are 18mos from now.

[Eclipse]

I think if you keep ES & cut cadets the program folds, and likewise if you keep cadets & cut ES the program folds. No part of the program is strong enough to stand alone, and that makes for some good things about CAP.

I don't take issue with anything in that response other than this part.

Its simply not the reality.  The ES can and does stand on its own today.

The majority of the funding, radios, planes, vehicles, and members are in it for the ES side.

There is not one single cadet unit in CAP without seniors.

There are already LOTS of very active units in CAP without a single cadet. (PWK was one of them before I took over).

[DNall]

And not all seniors have anything to do with ES, in fact tons do not. That's a misnomer that seems real in some units & some parts of the world, but it's nto universal by far.

ES is for darn sure a major part of what we do. However, administration of one third the organization is more than twice the amount actually spent on ES. If it costs more to field the force than the benefit returned, then it becomes real debatable.

I do appreciate what we do in ES, but honestly a lot of non-distress beacons, and when we get on the scene of something real we have to call in someone else to do the rescue portion... to those 20-50 people we save a year it's no doubt worth every penny, but on the whole you're going to have to make a real strong case for why states can't do the same thing if given our gear & training funds, and do it better since they already have the EMS folks on hand. Why does it have to be CAP ES & no other alternative? And show the federal financials for each option, don't count state funds. How you answer that against opposition is the justification you have to make to keep it alive.

As it is though, both sides can argue it into a gray area, and as long as you got AF w/ a sentimental attachment & a cadet program plus AE as bonus, then they can sell it to congress as a footnote in their big priorities. Stand alone though? That's a harsh world you're wanting to face there my friend. I have a lot of appreciation for the warm cozy parts of our current situation, and merely want to stretch an arm out here or there to bring in more that makes us more useful/better & encourages the good thing we have going. ... Respectfully!!

[Major Carrales]

And not all seniors have anything to do with ES, in fact tons do not. That's a misnomer that seems real in some units & some parts of the world, but it's nto universal by far.

ES is for darn sure a major part of what we do. However, administration of one third the organization is more than twice the amount actually spent on ES. If it costs more to field the force than the benefit returned, then it becomes real debatable.

I do appreciate what we do in ES, but honestly a lot of non-distress beacons, and when we get on the scene of something real we have to call in someone else to do the rescue portion... to those 20-50 people we save a year it's no doubt worth every penny, but on the whole you're going to have to make a real strong case for why states can't do the same thing if given our gear & training funds, and do it better since they already have the EMS folks on hand. Why does it have to be CAP ES & no other alternative? And show the federal financials for each option, don't count state funds. How you answer that against opposition is the justification you have to make to keep it alive.

As it is though, both sides can argue it into a gray area, and as long as you got AF w/ a sentimental attachment & a cadet program plus AE as bonus, then they can sell it to congress as a footnote in their big priorities. Stand alone though? That's a harsh world you're wanting to face there my friend. I have a lot of appreciation for the warm cozy parts of our current situation, and merely want to stretch an arm out here or there to bring in more that makes us more useful/better & encourages the good thing we have going. ... Respectfully!!

I would say that 95 percent of the people in our unti are WHOLE CAP types that place lots of value on ES and Cadet Programs.   They are literally, Minutemen of the Skies and take pride in that.

I think it is a misnomer to think that people are so notched into only one groove.

[DNall]

Maybe, but you can't really be a superman expert in more than one thing. You can't even do that from field to field in ES. A lot of officership stuff is transferable to a degree, and you get a fair amount of low-end ES working with cadets, but it's hard to see how you could keep current to those NIMS job title & typing descriptions & also be the kind of really good line officer we need in cadet programs that has the time to run around crazy doing that stuff.

[lordmonar]

Maybe, but you can't really be a superman expert in more than one thing. You can't even do that from field to field in ES. A lot of officership stuff is transferable to a degree, and you get a fair amount of low-end ES working with cadets, but it's hard to see how you could keep current to those NIMS job title & typing descriptions & also be the kind of really good line officer we need in cadet programs that has the time to run around crazy doing that stuff.

None of this stuff is rocket science.  You most certainly can be competant in all three areas if you have the time for it.  I am SLS away from being a Senior Rated CP guy....I am ES qualified and I am currently the AE officer for my squadron.....and I am pretty good in all three areas.

Nothing NIMS is going to do will make it any harder to do that.

[DNall]

I think, and this is just my personal opinion, nothing I'd hold others to, but I think as it sits now you can be basically competent & effective in all three things. However, I do not thing you can be expert, & certainly not superman in both sides of the house.

No offense, but the specialty ratings don't mean much. Even the hardest ones aren't much more than checking off a fairly simple list & punching the clock. You can easily do that, but it doesn't make you really great at anything, just minimally competent, and not always that given the quality control.

I've been involved in some stuff int he past & with the assistant I'm working with now that I'd say is pretty darn top 1-2% level stuff. I don't know if I'd call it rocket science, it's not that difficult, but it is on par with top-notch real mil field grade line officer quality stuff. I don't think we're particularly special by the way, just knowledgable & experienced line officers.

I don't see how it's possible, even full-time with a paycheck, to attain & maintain that level in more than one thing at a time. Maybe that's what it means to be a general, I don't know I'm not that good yet, and maybe never will be. I can contribute to both, I can be competent in both, but no way in hell can I be top of the field in both at the same time, not a chance.

I know my assistant could be an amazing ES operator if he had the time or desire for it. He spent 12 years enlisted, started out in comm, did base honor guard at lackland, qual'd PJ then got hurt, commissioned PA flight nurse, did some cool stuff in Katrina, back from in-res SOS, captain now in active reserves on flight status & about to make his 20, did some cool stuff in Katrina. I'd call him very highspeed, and we're playing off each other quite well & learning a lot from each other as we go. He's in for his two kids though, and I'll be happy to give him my job when I leave.

[lordmonar]

Ain't no one paying for any experts here!

Secondly....unless you are retired and doing nothing else but CAP....how can you be an EXPERT in anything CAP?  I mean you spend 40+ hours a week working.

Finally, who expects anyone to be an expert?  We need you to be completant and it only takes a little reading for 90% of that and a little bit of natural talent.

[DNall]

Component commanders at least need to be experts, & most deputiwa (major dept head-types), preferablly ES officers also. The few experts do officer equiv work managing a bunch of competent or still learning folks who do NCO & airman work.

And yeah it averages out to maybe as much as 20hrs a week outside your faimly & real job to do that, at least for me it does, and yeah that's real hard to maintain. Expert is the standard you should be shooting for in any given job though, and I'm of the oppinion that requires the exclusion of other jobs. I think you need to do some exposure familiarization stuff early on, and then pick a spot, run with it till you burn out & switch to something else that takes over your interest. Eventually you should make major contibutions in each aspect of the program. Most of the people you command though will just be going along doing their little part, and that's fine, but what you need to do is direct their energy & manage the resulting progress to planned objectives. You can get a whole lot done with a little officership. Most people are just begging to be led.

[Tubacap]

As far as our ES being BS.  I have been on ten missions in the last year, including 4 saves.  My five years prior to that have been just as exciting with lots of actual work.    So I would say that we are doing fine in PA as far as getting legit mission work.  Is there room for improvement?  Always. 

As for being experts in the field.  I don't think that I personally will become an expert in any SAR field until I am retired, or take up SAR full time.  Am I more knowledgable than the average citizen out there, sure.  How do I intend to be of service to my community, state, and nation?  I plan on working hard to actively gain knowledge in the specialties that are most needed within my chain of command. This is already ingrained in many of our members, at least the ones that I work with on a mission to mission basis. 

When I first joined, my Deputy Commander for Seniors (now officers I guess???) told me that the reason why he stayed in was because of the associations he made within the organization, and the type of people that are in CAP.  As I have gone through the program, I feel the same way.  Nearly all CAP Personnel that I have been associated with are professional, knowledgable, and know their limitations.  They are constantly willing to improve themselves through self analysis and critical analysis from the outside.  The binding element for most, not all, but most of the seniors that I work with however is ES.  Many are driven by CP, but still tied to ES.

[ZigZag911]

I'd almost certainly stay if ES went away....but I'd really miss it!  And I think it would be a detriment to CP, take away an important element for training and service from CP.

[IronRangerMN]

Without ES, the enitre squadron im in would be deserted. And we have 60 people on the roster. ES is all we, the cadets, do. I could not care any less about AE. Flying my be kinda fun and different from the norm, but its more of a senior member pilot thing for us. And cadets meet on Tues, not Monday like our senior members. We have whole different senior members in control of the cadets on Tues. Most are former military or along those lines.

I would not stay in for a minute after the rest of my team dropped out.

[afgeo4]

I would stay, but it would be a cadet program, not CAP. CAP is Civil Air Patrol. Take out Air and Patrol and...

Well... it would just be another after school program for teenagers.

[ZigZag911]

Maybe, but you can't really be a superman expert in more than one thing. You can't even do that from field to field in ES. A lot of officership stuff is transferable to a degree, and you get a fair amount of low-end ES working with cadets, but it's hard to see how you could keep current to those NIMS job title & typing descriptions & also be the kind of really good line officer we need in cadet programs that has the time to run around crazy doing that stuff.

I think you are quite correct on this....my personal observation has been that, as officers move up in responsibility and tenure in the program, they tend to shift, by and large, either to senior command or to senior level training mentoring responsibilities....generally involving less frequent direct contact with cadets...and also involving responsibilities on the mission management end of ES.

[connelly]

That is a tough one. I live by SAR. If i was not wit CAP SAR i would leave and go into the fire dept. or something.

[escadet91]

i'm a cadet and yea i would stay in cap but i wouldn't like it much i mean helping people and going out and searching for down aircraft is awsome no i havent yet but i have been out on missing person(s) searches