Cadet Participation in ES (Ground Team)

[Stonewall]

I've always considered ES (when I say "ES", I mean ground teams) an awesome venue in which to exercise leadership for the cadets.  It not only gives them practical skills they can use in life like first aid, communications, situational awareness, but it also provides opportunities to exercise leadership.  Additionally, it gives them a sense of contribution to a greater cause.

IMHO, I don't expect cadets to be fully involved with long term missions, but I do believe that since there is potential to be called to assist, that we should afford them the opportunity to achieve qualifications to do just that.  Nothing says they HAVE to be called every time there's a need to shut of an ELT at the airport, but as a cadet myself, I trained for that one big mission.  And yeah, as a cadet for 5 years, I went on a handful of "big" missions.  As a senior, I've been on and handful of "big" missions, with cadets.  Multiple days, overnight...big mission bases with multiple agencies.  So yeah, there is potential to be a part of the real thing.

That said, I don't really get a vibe that cadets are really interested in it as much as they used to be.  Additionally, I don't think seniors encourage it as much as they used to either.

Thoughts?

[Eclipse]

I didn't vote because I'm not assigned at a unit, but when I was, the cadets were always encouraged to be involved in ES and many were,
including several real-world unusual missions (USAFAUX2004, I'm looking at you and your annoyingly eagle-like eyes) (plus a number of REDCAPS).

I think this opportunity is one of the things that differentiates CAP from other programs.

[Stonewall]

As an example, this is what I feel like the "average" composite/cadet squadron should look like.

See attached "Alert Roster" from my former squadron.  It includes 13 qualified cadets.  I definitely don't see this in my neck of the woods.  But I want to change that.  I'm curious to know what it looks like in your neck of the woods.

[ThatOneGuy]

I happen to be the only member in my squadron (cadet or senior) who is qualified in anything ES, or even GTM. I get quite a few cadets interested in ES initially, but then when they find out the amount of training and $ on average in order to participate, they lose interest. We're in the process of starting a Ground Team up again, and with the help of the Group ES Officer, it should hopefully happen. But back on topic, it is not encouraged as much these days because most cadets care more about aviation and flying rather then going out and pounding the ground in the backwoods. State specific, CO has at least 3 SAR organizations per county (not really, it just seems like it) and as a result, CAP ground teams are rarely called out on any mission, and the ones that are, the rest of us never hear about it. 

[Huey Driver]

My squadron has 30 members. 19 SM's and 11 cadets. Until this summer, I was the only one with any active ES ratings. Now we have 2 members with active ratings.

None of our SM's really care about ES any more. Most all of our SM's are expired MRO's, MSA's, MS, MO, MP, GTM3, GTL though. Our squadron used to be tasked with 20-30 missions per year. Yeah, a lot. But in the decline of our typical 121.5 missions, all of them let their ratings expire. Their lack of motivation and the lack of missions are also major factors in what made our past 3 consecutive ES Officers leave the Squadron.

On the cadet side, all of my cadets look forward to the ES nights once per month. Nearly all of them have expressed interest in seriously becoming a GTM or UDF at least. A few of them have gone out and started buying supplies and vests and other cadet-like stuff to buy for ES. However, they are often not responsible enough to take their ICS Courses, or take ICUT, or enter the SQTR tasks that we complete on ES nights. I don't get it. I've talked to them multiple times about this. They're improving but I often remind them that until these get completed, no missions.

[Luis R. Ramos]

When I rejoined Aug 2011, my squadron was not very active training on ES. I fought for, and the last squadron CC accepted, for required monthly ES training both cadets and seniors. Under the current CC, the newly appointed Deputy Commander for Cadets derailed my training. He stated "not all cadets are interested in ES, the regulations do not mandate ES, so cadet participation in ES should be voluntary." Now I will have to start a program, once a month, an additional but extra day in the week.

Flyer

[Stonewall]

Under the current CC, the newly appointed Deputy Commander for Cadets derailed my training. He stated "not all cadets are interested in ES, the regulations do not mandate ES, so cadet participation in ES should be voluntary."

Lame.  Sorry to hear that.

As a former cadet I didn't care for aerospace education, but I did it because it was a part of CAP.  As a former squadron commander as well as a long time DCC in two different [highly successful] squadrons, ES was a main component of our schedule.  True, cadets are not required to participate, but if it's scheduled during the meeting, they will participate.  The stuff you schedule during meetings doesn't require gear, or qualification in anything.

It's like model rocketry, not every cadet will be interested, but they are expected to participate. 

[Woodsy]

Stonewall,

The problem we've had locally is lack of interest in ES from cadets.  The seniors are all very active in ES, and pretty much everyone, with the exception of a few new people and a few that only do cadet stuff, have multiple ES quals.

We've tried over and over again to get cadets involved.  They are always invited to participate in SAREX's, but it seems we always have the same few cadets show up, if any. 

It blows my mind.  I didn't know about CAP when I was cadet-aged, but I would have been all over the ES stuff if I did. 

That said, I think there is a little bit of a turn around lately.  We have some new toys, a bunch of new handheld radios, a couple of the digital Lpers, the sniffer, and I think cadets are starting to get interested.  I think now is a critical time, they're on the verge and we need to pull them over. 

Another issue with ground team stuff is that traditionally we've been a more air and base staff oriented squadron.  We have lots of pilots, IC's, branch directors, etc but very few GTM's.  I'm not sure if we have a current GTL at all right now.  Again, I think that's changing too.  The cadets aren't the only ones who've noticed the new toys laying around and are getting curious. 

[Stonewall]

My goal is to pay someone to sign me off on UDF - GTL over the next week or so 

Seriously, as I type this I'm taking a break from dusting off my ground team gear. I spent all night going through ICUT. Now I need someone to sign me off so I can start getting cadets signed off on comms.

I've been GBD up until 2009 when all my quals expired. I have no interest in working higher than GTL or now, so GTL I my short term goal.  Like GTL, EMT expired in 2010 too. I'm scheduled for first aid/CPR recert in a couple weeks on my company's dime/time.


Once I'm up to speed and requalified as a GTL I want to schedule at least a 1 day training opportunity every other month.  Additionally, I want to cover one ES topic during a meeting once a month.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I don't understand the push by SMs for Cadet ES participation. I did it, got the GTM badge, and never went on a mission. My quals expired when I was in college. Let the cadets focus on cadet activities, and work with the CDC to plan the "Non-required contact hours" to land on your ES training nights. Those cadets interested in working ES can then break off to go and learn with the SMs, and the rest of the cadets not interested can work on Leadership/Aerospace/Color Guard/ D&C/etc.

Don't force cadets into something they DON'T want. That's a good way to loose them.

[Stonewall]

I don't understand the push by SMs for Cadet ES participation. I did it, got the GTM badge, and never went on a mission. My quals expired when I was in college. Let the cadets focus on cadet activities, and work with the CDC to plan the "Non-required contact hours" to land on your ES training nights. Those cadets interested in working ES can then break off to go and learn with the SMs, and the rest of the cadets not interested can work on Leadership/Aerospace/Color Guard/ D&C/etc.

Don't force cadets into something they DON'T want. That's a good way to loose them.

You say that, but with 15 years of direct contact with cadets as DCC or CC, this is how we did things and our retention rate was in the 90s.  There's always one part of the program that someone doesn't care for.  For me, it was AE, but I did it anyway.  Why?  Because I'd be [darn]ed if I wasn't going to participate in something.  I loved CAP as a cadet, regardless of what was on the agenda.

Color Guard is NOT required either, so do we let cadets pick & choose what they want to do?  "You don't like color guard?  Okay, feel free to do what you want."  ES can be broad based at squadron meetings.  Meaning, covering comms, i.e. the phonetic alphabet and sending/receiving messages IS an ES function, but can also be something everyone can enjoy and learn from.  Similarly, first aid training, survival techniques, etc.  The topics I schedule for meetings that relate to ES are not, nor should they be, directly focused on a specific ground team requirement, i.e. getting signed off on conducting refit.  Weekend training activities as far as ES concerned, yes, those are not mandated.  But at a meeting, you show up and you do what's on the calendar, whether it's moral leadership, model rocketry, PT, or D&C. 

I wouldn't force anyone to get qualified in anything, that's their choice, you're right.  But the meeting is run how it's run, and as long as we're meeting all the requirements, it's up to the leadership to fill the gaps with something valuable and relevant.  If I'm in charge, one half of one meeting each month will cover an ES related topic.  You can't please everyone all the time.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I'm just saying that I'd back any CDC that wants to focus on direct cadet activities over ES. I was in CAP for the military aspect, which meant that I also didn't care much for AE, but I did it when it was on the agenda. We do have required contact hours, and those have to be done first. I'm fine with ES on the schedule, but if people don't want to do ES, am I really going to push the cadets into it? Not really. What you'll end up with is cadets who may start skipping those meetings. That's not a good thing, and should be addressed, but we always complain that cadets are in so many activities today, that sometimes CAP just doesn't make the cut at the top of the list. Why add an item that will make that choice for them easy to make?

[Woodsy]

My goal is to pay someone to sign me off on UDF - GTL over the next week or so 

Seriously, as I type this I'm taking a break from dusting off my ground team gear. I spent all night going through ICUT. Now I need someone to sign me off so I can start getting cadets signed off on comms.

I've been GBD up until 2009 when all my quals expired. I have no interest in working higher than GTL or now, so GTL I my short term goal.  Like GTL, EMT expired in 2010 too. I'm scheduled for first aid/CPR recert in a couple weeks on my company's dime/time.


Once I'm up to speed and requalified as a GTL I want to schedule at least a 1 day training opportunity every other month.  Additionally, I want to cover one ES topic during a meeting once a month.

Can't remember the renewal procedures for expired quals...  Do you have to do everything all over again, or just do sorties? 

Next Saturday should be a good start.  I only need a couple more things and 1 more sortie for my UDF sign off. 

[Eclipse]

A renewal requires the completion of any missing or undocumented tasks, and then one evaluated mission in that role.
If you have no missing or new tasks, then you just have to accomplish a sampling of advanced tasks to the satisfaction
of the SET.   The emphasis is on ascertaining if you can do the job, not micro'ing the qual.

Some wings have supps that require full renewal if you're over "x" years.

If you've been away a long time, you'r wing might not want you to be an SET until you get some reps in.  YMMV.

[ol'fido]

I don't understand the push by SMs for Cadet ES participation. I did it, got the GTM badge, and never went on a mission. My quals expired when I was in college. Let the cadets focus on cadet activities, and work with the CDC to plan the "Non-required contact hours" to land on your ES training nights. Those cadets interested in working ES can then break off to go and learn with the SMs, and the rest of the cadets not interested can work on Leadership/Aerospace/Color Guard/ D&C/etc.

Don't force cadets into something they DON'T want. That's a good way to loose them.

:clap:

You say that, but with 15 years of direct contact with cadets as DCC or CC, this is how we did things and our retention rate was in the 90s.  There's always one part of the program that someone doesn't care for.  For me, it was AE, but I did it anyway.  Why?  Because I'd be [darn] if I wasn't going to participate in something.  I loved CAP as a cadet, regardless of what was on the agenda.

Color Guard is NOT required either, so do we let cadets pick & choose what they want to do?  "You don't like color guard?  Okay, feel free to do what you want."  ES can be broad based at squadron meetings.  Meaning, covering comms, i.e. the phonetic alphabet and sending/receiving messages IS an ES function, but can also be something everyone can enjoy and learn from.  Similarly, first aid training, survival techniques, etc.  The topics I schedule for meetings that relate to ES are not, nor should they be, directly focused on a specific ground team requirement, i.e. getting signed off on conducting refit.  Weekend training activities as far as ES concerned, yes, those are not mandated.  But at a meeting, you show up and you do what's on the calendar, whether it's moral leadership, model rocketry, PT, or D&C. 

I wouldn't force anyone to get qualified in anything, that's their choice, you're right.  But the meeting is run how it's run, and as long as we're meeting all the requirements, it's up to the leadership to fill the gaps with something valuable and relevant.  If I'm in charge, one half of one meeting each month will cover an ES related topic.  You can't please everyone all the time.

YESSSSSS!!!

[Woodsy]

A renewal requires the completion of any missing or undocumented tasks, and then one evaluated mission in that role.
If you have no missing or new tasks, then you just have to accomplish a sampling of advanced tasks to the satisfaction
of the SET.   The emphasis is on ascertaining if you can do the job, not micro'ing the qual.

Some wings have supps that require full renewal if you're over "x" years.

If you've been away a long time, you'r wing might not want you to be an SET until you get some reps in.  YMMV.

Thanks for the info.  Do you have to renew in pre-req order, or can you go straight to the top, and that automatically renews the lower level quals?  Example, renew MO and MS automatically renews. 

[Eclipse]

Based on the table of equivalency, yes.

MO renews MS, and MP renews MO & MS (if you had it before).  The verbiage is "eligible", so YMMV.  We've had some issues
with MP's who haven't flown right seat in 10 years going off flying status and not being able to find the Becker, etc., so
in some cases it isn't automatic.

Same goes for GTL.  You get GTM3-2-1 & UDF (if you already had them).

[Spaceman3750]

I don't think anyone's talking about forcing cadets into ES. I have this funny phenomenon in my squadron (probably not unique) where the cadets have told me before - "Lt. Bagodoughnuts, we want to do this ES thing, ground team, radios, etc.". My response is "Great, here is how the program works!" and break down the steps to qualification and what their opportunities are during and after qualification.

Most of them never even do the 116.

[Eclipse]

We "force" cadets to do a lot of things they don't want to, that's their entry fee to the opportunities they want.

Why?  Because it's either better for them in the long run, or better for the organization, which in turn is better for them.

You decide the course, put it on the calendar, and allow people to make their choices.

[Stonewall]

^^^this!!!

[Huey Driver]

I don't think anyone's talking about forcing cadets into ES. I have this funny phenomenon in my squadron (probably not unique) where the cadets have told me before - "Lt. Bagodoughnuts, we want to do this ES thing, ground team, radios, etc.". My response is "Great, here is how the program works!" and break down the steps to qualification and what their opportunities are during and after qualification.

Most of them never even do the 116.

Nope, not unique. Like I said earlier in the thread, they want to get involved but won't take any of the tests or take the time to enter SQTRs. They'll go and buy loads of unnecessary gear though.

[MIKE]

WIWAC in the late 90's I and my unit at the time was active enough with ELT/EPIRB missions to get me two non-distress Finds, a SAR ribbon, and basic GT badged... then the missions dried up, and CAP was not really a player in "other SAR", at least at that time in MAWG.

I think you need to take a serious look at the ops tempo in your AOR.  If the missions aren't there, or cadets are barred from participation due other factors... then don't waste their time and yours on training for qualifications they will never use.

[LGM30GMCC]

I have a problem when people assume Cadets in ES = Cadets on Ground Team. As has been pointed out acquiring and maintaining proper GT gear can get pricey. (I was serving as CDC in semi-rural and rural Montana.) Additionally, if there aren't actual missions it just becomes expensive 'nice to have' stuff. For a number of reasons MT just was not utilized much and for a number of Ops CAP ground teams just wouldn't be appropriate or equipped to handle it. (Aircraft seem to have a tendency to crash into the mountains up there.)

If folks want to do introductory training and whatnot during the little bit of non-mandated contact hours, that's great...as long as they have a real plan.

We developed a plan to get people GT qualified in a reasonable amount of time to a truly high standard. (Classroom training using the NESCP followed by field practice/training, followed later by evaluation). We had about 6 of our cadets who were interested but when they started having to put in the work they fell off and we stopped providing the extra training.

The squadron was also going to invest in 10 sets of GTM gear and keep it stocked and ready to go. Standardized kits supplied with squadron funds. But there was no commitment from the cadets.

AE is a required part of the CP. It's required for promotions and can be tied into the core curriculum. ES you can practice some of the leadership skills, but it just is not part of the mandated program.

As to having people get to pick and choose, I think that is an ideal situation. If you have a big squadron (30+ active cadets) I think you should be able to have parallel training. Color Guard while GT training is going on, or extra AE focused stuff whatever. Tailoring a program to a very specific thing though I believe it has 'high retention' and the like because the people who want to do that stuff, or that get those unconcious signals that's what they SHOULD want stay. The others leave or don't join in the first place.

[cantthinkof1]

One reason might be that because in New Jersey the GSAR course is the same exact week as the Basic Encampment.  Most cadets at my squadron who are interested in GSAR also need to attend the encampment.  Last year I attended the encampment then one week later I attended the GSAR course and had a blast.  Does anyone know why they are in the same week?   

[cantthinkof1]

Also, my squadron has a total of 44 active cadets and only 2 are GTM certified...

[Eclipse]

Not everyone goes to encampment.

Not everyone goes to GSAR.

Life is choice.

GSAR academies, NESA, HMRS, or any of these other schools are not remotely required to be active in ES.
Most members complete the training locally.

[cantthinkof1]

Not everyone goes to encampment.

Not everyone goes to GSAR.

Life is choice.

GSAR academies, NESA, HMRS, or any of these other schools are not remotely required to be active in ES.
Most members complete the training locally.

ES classes are not taught at my squadron.  Just saying that having the GSAR course and the encampment in the same week can limit a cadets opportunity to become GTM certified.

[Eclipse]

ES classes are not taught at my squadron.

First thing to do is to ask why not.

Then consider that there are other squadrons, not necessarily to join permanently, but to participate with
for training.  Your wing should have any number of other training activities throughout the year.

People that want something find it.

People that don't make excuses.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I was trying to get up to my UDF when our unit was running it, but I'll fully admit I became active again to primarily help with the CP, and my responsibilities there often got in the way of the UDF training. No biggie, I'll try to knock it out over a weekend activity or bribe some SET with a dinner for some training. Priorities...

We have some missions, but we're also not hurting for players in the unit, so I'd rather help make our CP stronger and get the ES stuff done as I get the chance.

[Huey Driver]

Does anyone know why they are in the same week?

Logistics, and problems with last year's location. This year it's being held at Fort Dix with encampment. I personally would like them separated still but I see why they're together this year.

But again, there's plenty of ways to get involved other than GSAR school.

[Walkman]

I've been building out ES program in the squadron for the past 2 years. We now have a core group of cadets moving forward with GT & UDF quals. A few of them have been able to go on actual UDF mission and two of them are staff at the WG ES academy. We're still in the growing phase, where we're got many cadets in Trainee status and a few fully qualified, but we're getting there.

[MajorM]

There's a value to ES training from a mission and values perspective.  Few other areas of CAP provide as visible a reminder of the civic service piece of CAP.

We have an active ES program.  Currently we have six cadet GTMs and two cadets with GTL done but waiting out the age thing.

I think part of the challenge is that the ES qualification process is confusing and labor-intensive.  So we help them through it.  Every new cadet, before exiting Phase I completes 116 and gets qualified as a GTM3-T.  After that if they want to learn more it's in their lap, but we'll still help.

An active ES component attracts a certain type of cadet as well as senior.  It needs to be in balance with everything else however.  We presently have 30 cadets so just over 25% have a full rating, and around 90% have a trainee status in something.

[Stonewall]

There's a value to ES training from a mission and values perspective.  Few other areas of CAP provide as visible a reminder of the civic service piece of CAP.

We have an active ES program.  Currently we have six cadet GTMs and two cadets with GTL done but waiting out the age thing.

I think part of the challenge is that the ES qualification process is confusing and labor-intensive.  So we help them through it.  Every new cadet, before exiting Phase I completes 116 and gets qualified as a GTM3-T.  After that if they want to learn more it's in their lap, but we'll still help.

An active ES component attracts a certain type of cadet as well as senior.  It needs to be in balance with everything else however.  We presently have 30 cadets so just over 25% have a full rating, and around 90% have a trainee status in something.

:clap:

Labor-intensive is right!

Yes, this is exactly the issue I face.  I think the problem is that we are trying to meet some national standard (NASAR?) that other agencies have created so we have some sort of recognizable or accepted street cred in the GSAR community.  No one other than paid assets like the military or well funded local/state agencies can beat us when it comes to Air SAR.

As far as I'm concerned, we are NOT a premier ground SAR capability, but we are far better than the alternative; untrained volunteers, who, while much appreciated, can often do more harm than good.  Prior to all the "national standardization" we (my CAP AOR, anyway in MER/DCWG) operated nicely.  But I agree, since all of the SQTR requirements, different GTM levels, etc., it can be a turnoff to some.  I realize cadets are rarely considered mature or effective enough to conduct SAR operations, but I think some, if not most, are.  More important to the cadet being mature enough, is the senior member running the ground team (real or training) smart and rational enough to identify the right cadets to take part in real missions.

I have said for many years, that CAP ES is an awesome way to exercise leadership for cadets.  I also caveat that statement with the knowledge that we (refering to cadets) may actually never be called out for real missions.  But if the stars are aligned and everything works out, then hell yeah, call'em in and put'em out in the field on a REDCAP.  My personal experiences on REDCAPs as a cadet were limited to about 6 total, in 5 years.  1 was a big time missing a/c mission that lasted days where mission base was more than a 2 hour drive away, and the other 5 (may have been more) were your typical non-distress, but it wasn't known until we found the ELTs, or in one case, the "lost person" turned out not to be lost.  But it was the excitement of actually doing something that made all the time, training and equipment worthwhile.  I could have cared less that I wasn't hoisted out with a jungle penetrator with an infant in my arms as I gave rescue breaths, reviving him just before returning him to the arms of his waiting parents on a mountainside.  No, I simply wanted to be a part of something bigger, and ES satisfied that need..

Old days:
2 hour GES class (human interaction) followed by 50 question ES questionnaire.
2 (real or practice) missions as a GTM(T) under supervision of a qualified GTL (no UDF qual).
ROP ROA card.
First Aid card.

Now:
So many links, videos, online "training", check-offs, and requirements that I'm confused, and I've been doing this since I was 14.  And that's just for GTM-3, I think.  I actually don't know which is higher, GTM-3 or 1.

The current system for earning a GTM qualification is probably necessary evil so that the organization as a whole is accepted in the SAR community nationwide.  But it absolutely makes it less appealing to cadets.

[ol'fido]

      When I joined CAP, the opportunity for missions was even rarer. They seemed to come in little clusters every 5-6 years, but I guess I was lucky. I joined a squadron where ES was just as important, if not more so, than any other aspect of the cadet program. It didn't matter to us that there might not be a mission for several years at a time. Going out and doing land nav or survival training was a heck of a lot more fun than setting around the meeting learning about what public law was responsible for CAP's existence. Yet, I was still on a color guard. we still had a chaplain giving Moral Leadership classes. I still promoted all the way to c/LtCol as did about 5 of my peers. I still went to encampment, flight encampment, and all the other things cadets do today that aren't related to ES.

       I was in a squadron good ol'country boys(and a girl or two ) who were as at home in the woods as they were in their living room. Playing army was as common as playing video games are today in the years before they were old enough to join. It may be me being old or it may be the result of a online generation, but those guys seemed a lot more engaged than some of the cadets do today. Because there wasn't all the outfits back then that sold "tacti-cool" gear and 21 different configurations of MOLLE vests, combat vests, etc., everyone pretty much had the basic LBE type gear. That also made us pretty good scroungers as well. Because we didn't have all the neat gee whiz gear like computers, Ipads, GPS, and cell phones, we became experts at improvising, adapting, and overcoming, and we were more than likely to succeed at whatever it was than some of the teams I have seen in operation lately.

       I hear people say on here that ES is not part of the cadet program so they don't involved in it or encourage their cadets to because they will have to buy a lot of gear and may not get to go to a real mission. CAP didn't start as a "youth leadership" program and all of a sudden decide, "Hey, why don't we take all this stuff we got and go look for lost airplanes or help out in disasters." The cadet program started as way to help prepare America's youth for their, at that time, inevitable military service and to give those cadets and seniors who were otherwise not eligible to serve a way to perform national service. The cadet program should not operate in a vacuum. It should train cadets to fulfill ALL of CAP's missions including and especially ES.

[Walkman]

The current system for earning a GTM qualification is probably necessary evil so that the organization as a whole is accepted in the SAR community nationwide.  But it absolutely makes it less appealing to cadets.

I wouldn't mind flattening out the GT levels a bit, but I kinda' like having some levels in place. I think having a new goal to reach keeps people engaged in training and moving forward.

Most of my cadets that are ES minded don't seem to be discouraged by the levels, and I've seen those that are of the hi-speed type want to put in the time & effort to reach higher levels. Actually what is discouraging to my cadets at the moment is getting First Aid done. It's getting pretty pricey.

[Stonewall]

Actually what is discouraging to my cadets at the moment is getting First Aid done. It's getting pretty pricey.

My old squadron had 5, count them, FIVE, first aid instructors through the Red Cross.  I was one of them.  We used squadron funds to qualify 4 seniors and one 18 y/o cadet as instructors - First Aid/CPR/AED.

Over the cousre of the next 2 years or so, we held about 10 first aid weekends throughout the wing (small wing, DCWG).  Because we'd have 2 instructors at each course, we could teach up to 20 at a time.  We bought 20 sets of books and re-used them every time, and we rented the other equipment.  We'd charge $25 per person, which, after 2 years, not only replaced the funds we used initially, but added some padding in our bank account so we could buy the first aid equipment out-right.

[Walkman]

My old squadron had 5, count them, FIVE, first aid instructors through the Red Cross.  I was one of them.  We used squadron funds to qualify 4 seniors and one 18 y/o cadet as instructors - First Aid/CPR/AED.

Very nice. We had one SM that was certified as a FA instructor, but he decided to go from Navy Reserves enlisted to AF Reserve officer. He's gone for a while...

I'll need to see if I can figure out a way to raise the money for something like this. I can think of 3 SMs that would be willing and able to get the certs done.

[Woodsy]

Actually what is discouraging to my cadets at the moment is getting First Aid done. It's getting pretty pricey.

My old squadron had 5, count them, FIVE, first aid instructors through the Red Cross.  I was one of them.  We used squadron funds to qualify 4 seniors and one 18 y/o cadet as instructors - First Aid/CPR/AED.

Over the cousre of the next 2 years or so, we held about 10 first aid weekends throughout the wing (small wing, DCWG).  Because we'd have 2 instructors at each course, we could teach up to 20 at a time.  We bought 20 sets of books and re-used them every time, and we rented the other equipment.  We'd charge $25 per person, which, after 2 years, not only replaced the funds we used initially, but added some padding in our bank account so we could buy the first aid equipment out-right.

Wow, I haven't heard of it costing that much before...  That last few times we've done it around here, it has been somewhere around $10... 

[Stonewall]

Wow, I haven't heard of it costing that much before...  That last few times we've done it around here, it has been somewhere around $10...

I'm scheduled for a full class next week at the ARC office here in town and it's costing $110.  That's First Aid, Adult/Child CPR, and AED.

If the books/materials are furnished, or available for free, the actual cost is somewhere around $20.  Not sure who is doing the training, unless it's through the local Navy base, which can be fairly inexpensive.  $10...that's really cheap.  I've never heard of that.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Woodsy-

If your squadron does not own mannequins for CPR practice, it gets expensive very quickly.

I have been both a Red Cross First Aid/CPR (1990-1995) and American Heart Association CPR instructor (now).

Both times, the cards alone cost $10. Books cost anywhere from $10 to $15. These two things come to at least $20. Then you start adding costs for renting mannequins, buying first aid practice materials, on and on.

Some instructors post here they reduced costs by keeping and reusing books. However this is against instructor agreements that both the American Red Cross and the American Heart Association clearly show on agreements their instructors have to sign. These agreements state that basically each student has to get a book. I do not know how they can get away with this, ignoring something they signed, and then expect cadets to show integrity.

Flyer

[Stonewall]

Woodsy-Some instructors post here they reduced costs by keeping and reusing books. However this is against instructor agreements that both the American Red Cross and the American Heart Association clearly show on agreements their instructors have to sign. These agreements state that basically each student has to get a book. I do not know how they can get away with this, ignoring something they signed, and then expect cadets to show integrity.

What "some instructors"?  I'm the only one that posted that, so call me out if you need to.  I'm okay with it.  Truth is, I don't recall exactly how we did it, but we did something that allowed us to not have recurring costs of materials.  This was more than 6 years ago so I don't recall the exact process.  We may have violated something unknowingly, but not intentional, but each time we ran a class we had to go to the ARC office, sign for, pay for, and accept all required materials, including books.  There's no way to get away without acquiring the proper materials from the ARC office.  Example - we couldn't go pick up mannequins, practice AED, and tests, and NOT pick up the correct amount of books for the number of students. 

So yeah, we did something to save costs, I'm not sure exactly what it was, but we did not violate any type of agreement.  The checks & balances didn't allow for it. 

EDIT:   In fact, now I remember what we did...just to clear up and to keep someone from blaming "some instructors" for violating integrity.  My employer at the time had ALL the training supplies, to include mannequins and practice AED.  My boss at the time was also the Vice Wing Commander, and gave me approval to use the company's equipment for training CAP members.  So now that I think about it, we did the opposite.  We used "owned equipment" and only had to charge for the books.

Instead of saying "you're a bad example, you violate integrity some instructor Stonewall", you could have said "hey man, you sure that's what you did, because that likely violated the instructor/ARC contract.".

[Luis R. Ramos]

Stonewall-

That is exactly why I did not use your name. I do not know what you did.

And before I read your message, I have read on these boards other posters stating they are/were ARC and AHA instructors and that is how they saved. By reusing books. Again, I am not specifically stating you are "guilty." Or you are a "violator." Please, don't get upset, that was not my intention! Again, I was not referring specifically to you!

Flyer

[Walkman]

When I checked with the Red Cross to see about getting group rates for the squadron, it ended up being around $70 per student. I can do a bunch of GTM training weekends were everyone chips in $10 for food for that.

[Woodsy]

The class that I did that I said was $10, well it was around that...  It may have been $12, or maybe even $15, but I'm sure it wasn't any more than that.  Also, students were given a list of materials to bring for first aid practice, that was maybe $5 worth of stuff.  The instructor was able to get the CPR dummies from someone that owned them personally. 

The course was conducted by a member that provided us with cards and books (each student got to keep the book.) 

One reason it may have been cheaper is that it was not an ARC or AHA course.  I can't remember the name of it off the top of my head, but it was some national accredited association... 

[Spaceman3750]

ARC raised their rates significantly last year or so. In my area, FA or CPR alone at a chapter will run you about $70 and both will be about $90. Last time I priced it out I can teach FA only for $25ish since I only pay for materials and the course record fee.

[SARDOC]

Some FA/CPR certifying agencies will allow you to library books for reuse if you are a nonprofit organization to help keep costs down.  The Emergency Care and Safety Institute is one of those.  Instead of each student having a full text, they do provide a small pamphlet (for a nominal Fee) Which is way cheaper than a text, but will still allow them to issue a card.   Shop around and see who has the best deal.

just remember the certifying agency curriculum must meet the requirements set forth in the National Guidelines for First Aid in Occupational
Settings.  Check CAPR60-3 for a link.

[Private Investigator]

I think the Cadet should have the option.

[Private Investigator]

I happen to be the only member in my squadron (cadet or senior) who is qualified in anything ES, or even GTM.

My current Squadron has 25 Cadets and 50 Seniors and I have personally more Finds from my previous Squadron than 'all' of them put together. They are one of those units who wants to do ES on a nice Saturday morning for a few hours or occassionally an overnighter, Sat/Sun. But Monday at oh dark thirty or 2300 on a Thursday night. Unheard of indeed. We do not even have a roster for a call out.   

[Stonewall]

For those opposed to ES training being held during a regular meeting for all members, including cadets, it would make it difficult for a person trying to attain their Senior Rating in the ES specialty track.

To complete the senior level of this specialty track, members must:

- Arrange for one ES related class of instruction for all unit personnel at the unit level each month during the regular meeting time.  Lesson plans and supporting documentation should be retained at the unit level for future use.

I suppose, cadets and seniors could opt out since ES isn't mandatory curriculum for cadets, but why not just participate?

[Eclipse]

My wing CC has mandated that ES will be a part of the regular curriculum and activity schedules for all units.  Many already had this as a simple matter of course.  Compliance has not been consistent, but that is primarily with the units that have no schedule to speak of anyway.

If the unit CC decides that ES is important, it will be.  A small percentage will complain, not because of the merits, but simply because complaining is what people do.  People could find a reason to complain about free ice cream.

In my most successful CAP endeavors, I charted an informed course and then walked it, adjusting where necessary.  In the ones where I
had less success, I spent far too much time worrying about 1%'er marginal performers who ultimately did nothing regardless of the
opportunity or situation.  Making decisive change at least ends the "conversations" quickly and everyone can move on, instead of
pulling the band-aid off slowly and pleasing no one.

[LGM30GMCC]

As a potentially free substitute for American Red Cross First Aid, what are folks thoughts (those with experience) on the Self-Aid Buddy Care (SABC) training given by the USAF. It contains both the computer and hands-on training?

[Eclipse]

As a potentially free substitute for American Red Cross First Aid, what are folks thoughts (those with experience) on the Self-Aid Buddy Care (SABC) training given by the USAF. It contains both the computer and hands-on training?

The training itself probably exceeds the mandate, but it's not open to CAP members.

As an SET I'd certainly accept a completion card or certificate from a member for ES quals that require First Aid.

[RogueLeader]

As a potentially free substitute for American Red Cross First Aid, what are folks thoughts (those with experience) on the Self-Aid Buddy Care (SABC) training given by the USAF. It contains both the computer and hands-on training?

I would love to take it.  I'm currently expired.  I'm sure our unit would love to have it.  Please feel free to stop by our meeting.  You aren't too far from us. 

[Eclipse]

This would not meet the requirements for CAP members.

[Spaceman3750]

This would not meet the requirements for CAP members.

For the purposes of GTM. But if you're not a GTM, then anything is fair game.

[Stonewall]

I'm an SABC instructor and the only thing that says so is some list our medical group maintains. Likewise, there's no card or credential to show for SABC training unless you're in the AF and can show it on your training transcripts.

[sarmed1]

This would not meet the requirements for CAP members.

Which part? if its only "online training" then no, but as long as there is "hands on" portion I believe  (as was previously discussed) its ok.

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=14650.msg264727#msg264727

Kirt: If your wing doesnt issue a "card" a standard USAF Certificate of Training issued for each student should be adequate

mk