Tornado response

[NCRblues]

Given the large outbreak of tornados last evening in Kansas, Missouri and Illinois, what is the CAP response if any from those wings?

I have just recently seen the Ill governor asking for volunteer disaster relief workers, and was wondering if CAP has been involved yet.

And, if CAP is not involved, I beg to ask the question....why not? This is a perfect thing for CAP to help out with.

[stillamarine]

The MO Wing PAO sent an email to the list-sere earlier that said they had 2 aircraft up doing damage assessment for two different county EMAs.

[ol'fido]

Well, I live about 25 miles from Harrisburg, IL and my stepson works about 5 miles north of there at a coal mine. They were underground when the storm hit and they're fans got hit along with several of their surface structures.

I was in Harrisburg myself a couple of weeks ago at the Walmart and strip mall that got hit. That area was also hit very bad in '09 by flooding.

So far, I haven't heard of any CAP response here in Illinois. I had heard that they were saying that they didn't need anymore volunteers at this time. That may change after the initial SAR efforts are over.

[Eclipse]

Word was that the sirens were going off again a few hours ago, and now it's turning thick and white up North again.

[RiverAux]

And, if CAP is not involved, I beg to ask the question....why not? This is a perfect thing for CAP to help out with.

While there is no disaster that CAP couldn't provide some help, it doesn't follow that we must be at every disaster or that we should be offended when we don't get called after something happens.  There are a couple of things we are really, really good at and a whole bunch of things that we're really not any more qualified or prepared to do than the local church.  And even the sort of thing we do really well, isn't always needed in every disaster. 

In regards to tornados in particular, I've yet to see our wing get called to do true damage assessment flights.  As best I can tell, when we get called for these our purpose is just to provide some photos to stick in post-disaster powerpoint presentations.  All the real assessment is being done from the ground. 

[coudano]

CAP, generally speaking isn't fast enough, organizationally, to respond to something like a tornado.
If you want to be a first responder to stuff like that you should join your local VFD or CERT.

[Eclipse]

Looks like it was Indiana's turn today...

[GTCommando]

Authorities reported the three deaths in southern Indiana, where Clark County Sheriff's Department Maj. Chuck Adams said the 1,900-person town of Marysville is "completely gone." Extreme damage was also reported in the nearby town of Henryville, home to about 2,000 people.

Sometimes, it's almost too easy to forget how much damage a storm like this can cause. Then, we hear something like this. My thoughts and prayers go out to all of them.

[RiverAux]

CAP, generally speaking isn't fast enough, organizationally, to respond to something like a tornado.

Depends on what they ask us to do.  Heck, even if they just wanted some folks to hand out water I bet CAP could get a team out there faster than other non-ES oriented organizations. 

[coudano]

CAP, generally speaking isn't fast enough, organizationally, to respond to something like a tornado.

Depends on what they ask us to do.  Heck, even if they just wanted some folks to hand out water I bet CAP could get a team out there faster than other non-ES oriented organizations.

I don't think so,
in the amount of time it takes someone to realize something like this has happened and even START the ball in motion for a full CAP activation, your CERT and VFD are already going to be on site, and those in two tiers, the people who just drive around with their scanners on 24x7 get there first, and then those who get a call show up 5 minutes later (already too late to get the first punch and in some cases, like a fire or an accident, make any response at all).

By the time we roll a fully authorized mission number, spin up a minimal mission base, and start dispatching teams, the immediate response is basically over.  That doesn't count time for the teams to alert, grab their gear, make a rendezvous, and actually transport to the affected area from maybe 30 minutes to 4 hours away.

[wuzafuzz]

It simply depends on the need and whether the local emergency managers know about CAP.  If the impact is large enough there will be things to do for several days, if not longer.  After a day or two the first round of volunteers are ready for relief.  CAP isn't going to replace a VFD, but there are plenty of ways to help.

Been there, done that, with CAP.  In fact, it was a tornado response.  My wing has also helped with logistical tasks at shelters for wildfire evacuees.  It's not glamorous and probably won't get you on TV, but it is a valuable community service. 

[RiverAux]

CAP, generally speaking isn't fast enough, organizationally, to respond to something like a tornado.

Depends on what they ask us to do.  Heck, even if they just wanted some folks to hand out water I bet CAP could get a team out there faster than other non-ES oriented organizations.

I don't think so,
in the amount of time it takes someone to realize something like this has happened and even START the ball in motion for a full CAP activation, your CERT and VFD are already going to be on site, and those in two tiers, the people who just drive around with their scanners on 24x7 get there first, and then those who get a call show up 5 minutes later (already too late to get the first punch and in some cases, like a fire or an accident, make any response at all).

Note I specifically did not compare our response to other ES organizations like the FD or CERT.  I was referring to local church groups or others that might do the sort of work our ground teams might do. 

That being said, if the disaster is in a CAP town there is reason that a CAP unit couldn't be on scene within 2 hours which is plenty quick enough to help out. 

[Eclipse]

Amazing, and just like "that" it went from killer snow all weekend to "breezy" - it's 36° right now and all the white is gone.

NOAA says 55° on Tuesday.  That massive hook is working its way East and North.

[ol'fido]

Down here this morning we had mid-50's, thunderstorms, and rain. Afternoon was high winds, pea size hail, and lower 50s. Tonight, winds have died down and it's in the 30s. Southern Illinois...if you don't like the weather, wait a few minutes and it'll change.

[Eclipse]

I'm always amazed that it's usually 10 degrees warmer at your end.

[ol'fido]

Well, we are closer to the equator....

Plus the fact that when storms boil up in Tornado Alley down in OK and related areas they seem to follow a line up through Poplar Bluff, MO straight into S. Illinois. The storms up there seem to whip in out of the Dakotas and NE and curl around the southern tip of Lake Michigan.

[LTC Don]

My thoughts and prayers go out to all those affected by these storms.  The scale of the destruction is amazing.

[Eclipse]

^ Looks like you got a few of your own today.

[RADIOMAN015]

Other than an after the incident air support missions such as flying NWS researchers or taking photos for the state emergency management agency, or silencing ELT's at airports after the storm, CAP really is not a primary ground team response.  In our state in was Fire Department Task forces that sent in over 300 fire fighters with specialized equipment (to search EVERY facility that had been damaged), backed up by state police, and the national guard for security.   Local churches, The Salvation Army provided food and the Red Cross provided shelter management.  Security varied in each shelter with local police as well as National Guard military police. 

I know when we got hit back in June of last year (where I work was about 5 miles from where the tornado hit the hardest and I had left work about 20 minutes prior to the storm and heard the tornado warning while mobile and was able to confirm on my ham radio via the storm spotter/sky warn program where the tornado was heading and called my workplace via cellphone to warn them (I had also talked with my boss and had specifically stated about the tornado watch & one of the other guys in the office had started to monitor the local TV news via an internet connection).  They had hail greater than golf ball size & strong winds and had everyone down in the cellar shortly after I had called and they also saw the tornado warning on the internet).  BTW there may be a stronger OSHA standard coming out with a requirement for employers to ensure they take proactive timely action to protect their employees when there is (potential for) severe weather such as tornadoes, strong thunderstorms with winds, flooding, etc.  Regardless of any regulations it is the right thing to do.

I can't emphasize enough to go out and buy a good weather alert radio receiver and have that on ALL the time, especially next to your bed when you are sleeping.  IT can save your life if bad weather approaches and you are sleeping.  When that alert goes out that radio can be programmed to have a siren come on and you will get vital information.  We were very fortunate in our area that more people were not killed (one guy and his girl friend in a camp ground were specifically warned by the camp ground manager to get out of their RV and come into a reinforced building and refused saying the weather looked fine, the girl was killed and the guy was in the hospital for over two weeks).  It was just amazing some of the close calls some people had. 

I would think as a community service type project that cadets and senior members could assist with clean up in an area with appropriate coordination prior to going into the area.
RM 

[ol'fido]

Although CAP members could certainly volunteer to assist in Harrisburg, there is probably no need for an organized CAP response. I say that as someone who believes that CAP should help wherever possible. As bad as it was and in as remote a corner of the state as Harrisburg is, the most severe damage was confined to a relatively small area and not spread out over the entire region although many spots did have some significant damage. The state probably used their own aircraft to survey the damage. There is a Sikorsky S-76 that the Governor uses and he was down the next day. So little or no need for CAP aircraft.

Also, within hours of the tornado, the authorities were turning volunteers away because so many showed up to help. It seems that whenever we have severe weather like this people start checking on the neighbors, guys grab their chainsaws and start clearing the streets, and the local churches(and there are a lot of local churches) start opening their doors to help.

[SAR-EMT1]

I have just recently seen the Ill governor asking for volunteer disaster relief workers.

News to me, and I am a medic on one of the IL State response teams. And btw, we are not deploying.

[jjmalott]

Other than an after the incident air support missions such as flying NWS researchers or taking photos for the state emergency management agency, or silencing ELT's at airports after the storm, CAP really is not a primary ground team response.  In our state in was Fire Department Task forces that sent in over 300 fire fighters with specialized equipment (to search EVERY facility that had been damaged), backed up by state police, and the national guard for security.   Local churches, The Salvation Army provided food and the Red Cross provided shelter management.  Security varied in each shelter with local police as well as National Guard military police. 

We may not be primary, but we may be needed at times.  Indiana Wing was immediately called and we had an organized CAP response with two ground teams on site and an IC in place.

[KyCAP]

KY has 21 reported dead as of last night, 300 injured.   CAP flew missions for Ky Emergency Management to collect images of tornado sites in four locations.

An entire town in Ky has severe damage.  I flew myself Non-CAP to test out some new avionics and over flew two of the sites and in one location it looks like Hurricane damage.... Bad stuff. 

[A.Member]

Relevant article to this discussion:

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/05/10585734-disaster-volunteers-please-curb-your-enthusiasm

So, where exactly does CAP fit in?  We can certainly offer assistance but it makes me wonder it the greater opportunity and perhaps better fit in these situations is around "crowd control".

[davidsinn]

Relevant article to this discussion:

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/05/10585734-disaster-volunteers-please-curb-your-enthusiasm

So, where exactly does CAP fit in?  We can certainly offer assistance but it makes me wonder it the greater opportunity and perhaps better fit in these situations is around "crowd control".

We're a little over qualified for crowd control. That's what cops are for. Reserve and Posse officers are almost exclusively used for that in my area.

[Spaceman3750]

I really don't want to be the guy doing crowd control outside of the food distribution point after a disaster. More importantly, I don't want to be the guy doing crowd control when they run out. A handful of seniors and cadets vs. a potentially angry mob is a bad scenario.

Then again, maybe I've been watching too many post-apocalyptic movies :angel:.

[ol'fido]

Crowd control in Harrisburg, IL

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=379991305346936&set=a.100909706588432.2073.100000082100838&type=1&theater

[wuzafuzz]

I really don't want to be the guy doing crowd control outside of the food distribution point after a disaster. More importantly, I don't want to be the guy doing crowd control when they run out. A handful of seniors and cadets vs. a potentially angry mob is a bad scenario.

Then again, maybe I've been watching too many post-apocalyptic movies :angel:.

I think it would go something like this:
Animal House - All Is Well!

[A.Member]

Relevant article to this discussion:

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/05/10585734-disaster-volunteers-please-curb-your-enthusiasm

So, where exactly does CAP fit in?  We can certainly offer assistance but it makes me wonder it the greater opportunity and perhaps better fit in these situations is around "crowd control".

We're a little over qualified for crowd control. That's what cops are for. Reserve and Posse officers are almost exclusively used for that in my area.

And we're considerably under qualified for most the ground aid that is needed with disaster response.   We're certainly not qualified for urban SAR or search of any damaged structures.   And, if you ask me, we're more than a little over qualified for sand bag filling, yet that's what we do. 

As for "crowd control", it's a visible presence to deter gawkers, nothing more.   No different than "security" at an airshow, a task that I never hear anyone complain about being over qualified for.   

We've done this duty in our Wing in the past.   The article simply highlights an issue I've heard echoed at every DR site I've volunteered over the years.  Perhaps some urban areas have sizable resources (such as police reserve) to deal with this issue, most places do not.  The way I see it, it indicates an opportunity - one that would be very much appreciated and go a long way in helping to build some of the relationships we're after.

[NCRblues]

Relevant article to this discussion:

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/05/10585734-disaster-volunteers-please-curb-your-enthusiasm

So, where exactly does CAP fit in?  We can certainly offer assistance but it makes me wonder it the greater opportunity and perhaps better fit in these situations is around "crowd control".

Where do we fit in... I have a perfect place.... and CAP has even done it before during Katrina...

We work with the local E.M.'s before hand (I know, shocking to ask CAP to plan BEFORE a disaster strikes) and CAP is the one that checks everyone in. Issues the wrist bands or ID cards or however your local area does it.

We set up volunteer shelters (I.E. set up cots, and off load water and other items) and have the PIO or PAO works with the local E.M. to keep the media away from the first responders so they can work.

In my local area, I can spin up AT LEAST 3 squadrons willing to drive and work for days on end. We even have a school squadron that the school board has said they will allow the cadets to miss school for D.R. work.

What a better way to put more boots on the ground than to relieve some of the admin drain that takes helpers away from saving lives.

Our cadets and even some of our SM's might not be able or having the training to check structure damage, or check for signs of life in a collapsed building, but they sure as heck can set up some cots, and unload some water....

By the way.... I hate MSNBC with a passion from HE double hockey sticks.

[Captain Morgan]

KY Wing has taken hundreds of aerial damage assessment photos.

[JeffDG]

I really don't want to be the guy doing crowd control outside of the food distribution point after a disaster. More importantly, I don't want to be the guy doing crowd control when they run out. A handful of seniors and cadets vs. a potentially angry mob is a bad scenario.

Then again, maybe I've been watching too many post-apocalyptic movies :angel:.

This is how the pros do it:
Nothing to see here

[Eclipse]

Chief Clancy Wiggum - Nothing to see here

[ol'fido]

Me and the wife went to Harrisburg tonight to eat at the Ponderosa. Took a tour down by the strip mall that was on the news. Damage was hit and miss there abouts. The strip mall was still toast but the Taco Bell 50 yards away was back in business with no readily apparent damage. The same was true in the nearby neighborhood. A few buildings here and there torn up but not the widespread devastation the news made it out to be. I'm sure that it was devastating to the people in it plus they have had about 10 days to clean up.

[ol'fido]

Started working overtime today cleaning up down in Harrisburg with my inmate work crew. It's amazing how hit and miss the damage is.

[rustyjeeper]

Relevant article to this discussion:

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/05/10585734-disaster-volunteers-please-curb-your-enthusiasm

So, where exactly does CAP fit in?  We can certainly offer assistance but it makes me wonder it the greater opportunity and perhaps better fit in these situations is around "crowd control".

Where do we fit in... I have a perfect place.... and CAP has even done it before during Katrina...

We work with the local E.M.'s before hand (I know, shocking to ask CAP to plan BEFORE a disaster strikes) and CAP is the one that checks everyone in. Issues the wrist bands or ID cards or however your local area does it.

We set up volunteer shelters (I.E. set up cots, and off load water and other items) and have the PIO or PAO works with the local E.M. to keep the media away from the first responders so they can work.

In my local area, I can spin up AT LEAST 3 squadrons willing to drive and work for days on end. We even have a school squadron that the school board has said they will allow the cadets to miss school for D.R. work.

What a better way to put more boots on the ground than to relieve some of the admin drain that takes helpers away from saving lives.

Our cadets and even some of our SM's might not be able or having the training to check structure damage, or check for signs of life in a collapsed building, but they sure as heck can set up some cots, and unload some water....

By the way.... I hate MSNBC with a passion from HE double hockey sticks.

And this "perfect place" we can do thru CAP. We have CERT in our sqtrs and basically this is what CERT teams are utilized for in my area- the FD and building officials check out stuctural situations, State Police runs the ground searches however they choose (usually their own SERT teams on quadruple overtime ) so to be a useful resource CAP needs to focus on CERT in addition to aeronautics and some GT/UDF is of course neccesary but all of that can fall within CERT.....and agencies are quick to use CERTS not so quick to take the unkowns, with CERT they have an idea of the basic training level without it they have no clue and CAP does a very poor job of making our training or existance known to local agencies and during an emergency no one is in a rush to research you....

[RickRutledge]

In Oklahoma, we've made preparedness a part of our alert roster. When the fit looks like it will hit the proverbial shan, we put teams on call everywhere that might be effected. Assuring we could have a team assembled and on-task in less than 2 hours. Also, we encourage the local squadron commanders to make contact with the emergency managers in their counties of service as well as the municipalities they serve (could be one in the same) and make sure these decision makers know that we can be on site at "a moments notice."

Last year, after a coordinated effort among several squadrons, due to this practice of making contact with the decision makers, we were called out to every Tornado and fire that occurred in the state. Our quick response along with the quality and promptness of our "product" has placed us at the top of their list for state assets. All it takes is a little work, but your wing CC and public affairs teams need to be on point with the state level folks and the squadron commanders should be very close to the local decision makers for things like this.

[754837]

Last year, after a coordinated effort among several squadrons, due to this practice of making contact with the decision makers, we were called out to every Tornado and fire that occurred in the state. Our quick response along with the quality and promptness of our "product" has placed us at the top of their list for state assets. All it takes is a little work, but your wing CC and public affairs teams need to be on point with the state level folks and the squadron commanders should be very close to the local decision makers for things like this.

Every tornado?  Every fire?  What services does CAP provide in these emergencies?

[RickRutledge]

Last year, after a coordinated effort among several squadrons, due to this practice of making contact with the decision makers, we were called out to every Tornado and fire that occurred in the state. Our quick response along with the quality and promptness of our "product" has placed us at the top of their list for state assets. All it takes is a little work, but your wing CC and public affairs teams need to be on point with the state level folks and the squadron commanders should be very close to the local decision makers for things like this.

Every tornado?  Every fire?  What services does CAP provide in these emergencies?

Sorry it's taken so long for me to reply.

Every tornado with any level of significant damage and pretty much every fire beyond a 100 acre burn, there were some that were that big or bigger but never effected any structures or population centers. Thus far our only response request has been with aircrews, mostly because CAP ground teams don't meet the FEMA NASAR standards, but we're working even harder to sell that story to the decision makers. We have an upcoming mission planned for a county EMA to do Airborne Recon on some potential structures that would be threatened by a flooding disaster. Our cost of performing the mission is 60% less than using the county's sherrif helo to do the recon, that's why the decision was made to go with us. But that didn't happen until every squadron commander in the metro, as well as the wing commander and a couple of our ES officers came in to do a "CAPabilities" presentation to the county EM.

You've just got to network and get to know people. As well, our state (like many others) has a EM Association that usually has a annual convention. In the past, we've set up a booth, done presentations during their general session with packets and capabilities guides and provided Q&A for the EMs to get to know our organization. That is where PA and ES can operate in tandem to "sell" the story.

[bflynn]

buy a good weather alert radio receiver and have that on ALL the time, especially next to your bed when you are sleeping.  IT can save your life if bad weather approaches and you are sleeping. 

But mostly, it's just going to ensure that you don't sleep.  I gave up trying to sleep with a weather alert radio on because the alerts channel covers too wide of a geographic area. 

I can remember the last night I had it on, listening to it go off at 10pm and announcing a severe thunderstorm watch in our area.  Then we got a warning from a county 50 miles away, followed by warnings for counties closer to us and finally about 12am a warning for our county.  Then warnings for the counties on the other side of us and so on.  From 10pm to 2am we had something like 15 announcements, about one every 15-20 minutes.  Of those, I really needed to hear two. And I really didn't even need to hear them since there's nothing to do for a severe thunderstorm except prepare outside, then sit down and wait for it to be over.

The one I need to hear is for a tornado.  But that's going to be about a once in a year thing at the most.

Around here, the odds are an alert radio isn't going to wake you up because you'll either already be awake or you'll sleep right through it because you're so used to hearing it.

[BillB]

Most weather radios can be set for specific county alerts. Check with your local radio hams to see about setting it up. Just punching in the area weather service will give wide coverage, but as said, there are codes that can be entered to just give alerts for specific counties.

[SJFedor]

Doesn't even take a ham. All you need is a receiver that has the ability to selectively listen, and your county's SAME code, which can be found here. http://www.nws.noaa.gov/nwr/nwrsame.htm

[Eclipse]

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.aws.android.elite&hl=en