dues dropped?

[coudano]

I just got a membership application kicked back from national hq because the dues check was written for $40,

but dues are now only $35.00

They had been $40 for "years" ?


wierd.
I don't remember seeing a memo on this either, eh?

Can't really complain about the price dropping.  It looks like nationwide cadet dues all went down (every wing).


and while i'm at it, i'll just gripe a little bit,
but the commander's signature in the proof of identity section is kind of annoying too,
i doinked that one a while back, I did verify the identity and I did check the box,
just failed to "sign" in that section (did sign in the bottom as usual)
**ergh**
I suppose over time will acclimate to the new procedure,
but it's kind of annoying in the mean time.

[Eclipse]

Perhaps your wing dropped their portion?

[Persona non grata]

WOW

[a2capt]

$35 is the only number I know for cadets.

[jimmydeanno]

but the commander's signature in the proof of identity section is kind of annoying too,
i doinked that one a while back, I did verify the identity and I did check the box,
just failed to "sign" in that section (did sign in the bottom as usual)
**ergh**
I suppose over time will acclimate to the new procedure,
but it's kind of annoying in the mean time.

This +20.  I've sent in a few without the signature, some with the signature on the wrong line in that block. 

In all honesty, I don't know why we collect half the information we do, especially on the cadet applications.  Is it that important that CAP Inc has the blood type, current school, height, weight, school, grade, or even the residency information? It just seems that we're gathering information just for the sake of gathering information.

Oh, and for my wing, it's $30.00 for cadets.

[Eclipse]

According to this: http://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/membership_dues.cfm

6 wings had a change in dues.

36 wings have cadet dues at less than $35.

[Brad]

but the commander's signature in the proof of identity section is kind of annoying too,
i doinked that one a while back, I did verify the identity and I did check the box,
just failed to "sign" in that section (did sign in the bottom as usual)
**ergh**
I suppose over time will acclimate to the new procedure,
but it's kind of annoying in the mean time.

This +20.  I've sent in a few without the signature, some with the signature on the wrong line in that block. 

In all honesty, I don't know why we collect half the information we do, especially on the cadet applications.  Is it that important that CAP Inc has the blood type, current school, height, weight, school, grade, or even the residency information? It just seems that we're gathering information just for the sake of gathering information.

Oh, and for my wing, it's $30.00 for cadets.

Well I can see why it could be different. Suppose Squadron or Wing "X" permits the Admin/Pers officer to sign the bottom line that says "To be completed by commander or designated representative." (Emphasis mine) It still falls on the commander alone to sign the line up top in the identity verification section.

And the demographics and vitals and such...well if there's a school-based squadron out on a CAP activity and something bad happens, then National would of course need to be made aware of which school those cadets are associated with. And blood type....well this would probably be of more use to the squadron who (hopefully) kept a copy of the packet for their records. They would be able to notify EMS // Hospital of blood-type if the cadet was incapacitated and unable to advise.

[Eclipse]

They would be able to notify EMS // Hospital of blood-type if the cadet was incapacitated and unable to advise.

EMS is going to type the blood before giving it, they aren't going to assume that an application form or dogtags are correct.

[Spaceman3750]

They would be able to notify EMS // Hospital of blood-type if the cadet was incapacitated and unable to advise.

EMS is going to type the blood before giving it, they aren't going to assume that an application form or dogtags are correct.

I always use UNK to keep someone from getting lazy and getting it wrong...

[EMT-83]

They would be able to notify EMS // Hospital of blood-type if the cadet was incapacitated and unable to advise.

EMS is going to type the blood before giving it, they aren't going to assume that an application form or dogtags are correct.

You've got some pretty advanced EMS folks in your area - typing blood in the field. 

Blood type is not required on the application; many cadets don't know it anyways.

[Spaceman3750]

They would be able to notify EMS // Hospital of blood-type if the cadet was incapacitated and unable to advise.

EMS is going to type the blood before giving it, they aren't going to assume that an application form or dogtags are correct.

You've got some pretty advanced EMS folks in your area - typing blood in the field. 

Blood type is not required on the application; many cadets don't know it anyways.

Personally I'd rather risk waiting to get to the hospital for blood and risk dying than have them give me the wrong blood type in the field and definitely die.

[cap235629]

without typing you get O neg.  This isn't rocket science.

[SARDOC]

You've got some pretty advanced EMS folks in your area - typing blood in the field. 

Haha...You got there before I did.  Yeah...Blood typing is done in a Lab   

without typing you get O neg.  This isn't rocket science.

I've seen EMS agencies using items like hetastarch and/or hemostatic agents to stop blood loss and replace volume, and eventually when you reach the ED they might hit you up with O Neg while the type and cross get done.

Sorry for the thread drift...especially since it wasn't about uniforms.

[RogueLeader]

ED?? That's blood loss, but not leaking from the body.

[SARDOC]

ED?? That's blood loss, but not leaking from the body.

Emergency Department.  They used to be called Emergency Rooms...but it turns out now most of them fill many rooms making it a department

[RogueLeader]

Just learned a new term. Where I'm at, people think that Washington is still the president.
 

[jimmydeanno]

And the demographics and vitals and such...well if there's a school-based squadron out on a CAP activity and something bad happens, then National would of course need to be made aware of which school those cadets are associated with. And blood type....well this would probably be of more use to the squadron who (hopefully) kept a copy of the packet for their records. They would be able to notify EMS // Hospital of blood-type if the cadet was incapacitated and unable to advise.

They wouldn't know from the charter that is at the top of the application?  If it's a school unit, it has a special charter number and NHQ would have the unit information anyway.

I suspect that the information is for membership data and demographic assessment.  However, it appears that it is just for the sake of collecting data, since we don't appear to be doing anything with it that is useful.  As for the proof of residence, I think it should be mentioned that JROTC doesn't care if a kid is here legally or not to enroll, so why would we, as a non-profit?  Seniors? Sure.

[titanII]

Where I'm at, people think that Washington is still the president.
 

Wait, I thought that Adams wasn't going to be inaugurated until January 

[JeffDG]

They would be able to notify EMS // Hospital of blood-type if the cadet was incapacitated and unable to advise.

EMS is going to type the blood before giving it, they aren't going to assume that an application form or dogtags are correct.

I always use UNK to keep someone from getting lazy and getting it wrong...

You're obviously not AB Pos

[JeffDG]

Where I'm at, people think that Washington is still the president.
 

Wait, I thought that Adams wasn't going to be inaugurated until January 

That's March, at least as I recall, both of these were Pre-20th Amendment.

[Eclipse]

As for the proof of residence, I think it should be mentioned that JROTC doesn't care if a kid is here legally or not to enroll, so why would we, as a non-profit?  Seniors? Sure.

We should be checking everyone's status, period.

[Spaceman3750]

As for the proof of residence, I think it should be mentioned that JROTC doesn't care if a kid is here legally or not to enroll, so why would we, as a non-profit?  Seniors? Sure.

We should be checking everyone's status, period.

Why? Why do I care if Cadet Snuffy goes to Homer J. Simpson Middle School or that my new SM is an AARP member (or whatever else you want to check on him)? As long as their identity is verified who cares?

[RogueLeader]

They would be able to notify EMS // Hospital of blood-type if the cadet was incapacitated and unable to advise.

EMS is going to type the blood before giving it, they aren't going to assume that an application form or dogtags are correct.

I always use UNK to keep someone from getting lazy and getting it wrong...

You're obviously not AB Pos

I am.

Where I'm at, people think that Washington is still the president.
 

Wait, I thought that Adams wasn't going to be inaugurated until January 

That's March, at least as I recall, both of these were Pre-20th Amendment.

When did were there more than ten.

[JeffDG]

They would be able to notify EMS // Hospital of blood-type if the cadet was incapacitated and unable to advise.

EMS is going to type the blood before giving it, they aren't going to assume that an application form or dogtags are correct.

I always use UNK to keep someone from getting lazy and getting it wrong...

You're obviously not AB Pos

I am.

Then what do you care what kind of blood they give you...grab the first bag on the shelf and pump it in!

[davidsinn]

As for the proof of residence, I think it should be mentioned that JROTC doesn't care if a kid is here legally or not to enroll, so why would we, as a non-profit?  Seniors? Sure.

We should be checking everyone's status, period.

Why? Why do I care if Cadet Snuffy goes to Homer J. Simpson Middle School or that my new SM is an AARP member (or whatever else you want to check on him)? As long as their identity is verified who cares?

I think he was referring to their immigration status.

[RogueLeader]

They would be able to notify EMS // Hospital of blood-type if the cadet was incapacitated and unable to advise.

EMS is going to type the blood before giving it, they aren't going to assume that an application form or dogtags are correct.

I always use UNK to keep someone from getting lazy and getting it wrong...

You're obviously not AB Pos

I am.

Then what do you care what kind of blood they give you...grab the first bag on the shelf and pump it in!

I don't care. Some others do.

[Spaceman3750]

As for the proof of residence, I think it should be mentioned that JROTC doesn't care if a kid is here legally or not to enroll, so why would we, as a non-profit?  Seniors? Sure.

We should be checking everyone's status, period.

Why? Why do I care if Cadet Snuffy goes to Homer J. Simpson Middle School or that my new SM is an AARP member (or whatever else you want to check on him)? As long as their identity is verified who cares?

I think he was referring to their immigration status.

Oops. Guess I took it a bit out of context then.

[jimmydeanno]

What does our cadets' immigration status matter?  They aren't enlisting into the military (which non-citizens are allowed to do as well), accessing secret material, or "leaching off the system."  They'd be paying dues and advancing our missions.  JROTC doesn't care, Boy Scouts don't care, and we shouldn't.  These restrictions are ones that we are putting on ourselves. 

[davidsinn]

What does our cadets' immigration status matter?  They aren't enlisting into the military (which non-citizens are allowed to do as well), accessing secret material, or "leaching off the system."  They'd be paying dues and advancing our missions.  JROTC doesn't care, Boy Scouts don't care, and we shouldn't.  These restrictions are ones that we are putting on ourselves.

Because I don't care to perpetuate illegal activity.

[jimmydeanno]

Yeah, those darn kids.  They should pack their bags and get back to where they came from.  Geez, 12 year olds should know better and leave their families behind to live on the streets!  It's not perpetuating illegal activity.  Joining CAP isn't illegal.  We are a membership organization - people pay to be members.

[davidsinn]

Joining CAP isn't illegal.

No it's not. But being in the country without permission is. Allowing them to act like someone that is allowed to be here is perpetuating their illegal status.

[SARDOC]

I don't see how allowing them is perpetuating their "illegal" Status.  But the real issue is that immigration status may matter.  If you follow CAPR 39-2 and verify their Identity as the regulation requires especially using Attachment 2...Most Illegal immigrants may have difficulty obtaining the documentation.  If they can provide the required Documentation than you should allow them to be a member otherwise you might be in violation of the CAP Anti Discrimination policy.  Since none of us are Immigration Administrative Law Judges we should leave immigration status debates up to them.  Follow our Organizations policy and you'll be just fine.

[davidsinn]

I don't see how allowing them is perpetuating their "illegal" Status.  But the real issue is that immigration status may matter.  If you follow CAPR 39-2 and verify their Identity as the regulation requires especially using Attachment 2...Most Illegal immigrants may have difficulty obtaining the documentation.  If they can provide the required Documentation than you should allow them to be a member otherwise you might be in violation of the CAP Anti Discrimination policy.  Since none of us are Immigration Administrative Law Judges we should leave immigration status debates up to them.  Follow our Organizations policy and you'll be just fine.

If they produce valid ID then no problem. I was responding to the statement that we shouldn't even care at all.

[jimmydeanno]

Joining CAP isn't illegal.

No it's not. But being in the country without permission is. Allowing them to act like someone that is allowed to be here is perpetuating their illegal status.

Would you deny membership to a lawful US citizen that is 12 years old, but lives in a meth house?  They're just as liable for their "illegal activity" as the 12 year old immigrant's kid.  We really shouldn't care about a cadet's immigration status, there is no detriment at all to their being a member, other than people's personal position on immigration - all of which has nothing to do with a minor, who has no choice in where they live or who their parents are.

[Eclipse]

Joining CAP isn't illegal.

No it's not. But being in the country without permission is. Allowing them to act like someone that is allowed to be here is perpetuating their illegal status.

Would you deny membership to a lawful US citizen that is 12 years old, but lives in a meth house?  They're just as liable for their "illegal activity" as the 12 year old immigrant's kid.  We really shouldn't care about a cadet's immigration status, there is no detriment at all to their being a member, other than people's personal position on immigration - all of which has nothing to do with a minor, who has no choice in where they live or who their parents are.

Deny membership?  No.  Defer involvement in CAP until DCFS and the police cleared up the situation?  Yes.

Violating the law is generally grounds for dismissal, therefore we don't allow anyone to join if we are aware they are violating the law.  Period.

Anyone, cadet or senior, who is able to produce proper identification, is likely to be a legal resident on some level.
A commander has a fiduciary responsibility to verify documents presented are not counterfeit, if they are, or there is a suspicion, then we don't accept them until they are verified.  Period.

Knowingly accepting falsified documents is worse then presenting them, and everyone involved should be denied membership or terminated.

And yes, immigration status will be a potential negative factor in a cadet's career, and it is likely to rear it's ugly head at the worst possible time - whether that is being denied access to a military base, NCSA, military O-Ride, or any number of the times when a federal or other agency takes cadet information and verifies it's authenticity for security purposes. 

[davidsinn]

Joining CAP isn't illegal.

No it's not. But being in the country without permission is. Allowing them to act like someone that is allowed to be here is perpetuating their illegal status.

Would you deny membership to a lawful US citizen that is 12 years old, but lives in a meth house?  They're just as liable for their "illegal activity" as the 12 year old immigrant's kid.  We really shouldn't care about a cadet's immigration status, there is no detriment at all to their being a member, other than people's personal position on immigration - all of which has nothing to do with a minor, who has no choice in where they live or who their parents are.

You're missing the point. The 12 year old you speak of has done nothing illegal. The 12 year old illegal alien,  just by standing on American soil is breaking the law.

[PHall]

Joining CAP isn't illegal.

No it's not. But being in the country without permission is. Allowing them to act like someone that is allowed to be here is perpetuating their illegal status.

Would you deny membership to a lawful US citizen that is 12 years old, but lives in a meth house?  They're just as liable for their "illegal activity" as the 12 year old immigrant's kid.  We really shouldn't care about a cadet's immigration status, there is no detriment at all to their being a member, other than people's personal position on immigration - all of which has nothing to do with a minor, who has no choice in where they live or who their parents are.

You're missing the point. The 12 year old you speak of has done nothing illegal. The 12 year old illegal alien,  just by standing on American soil is breaking the law.

The 12 year old who was brought here when he was 18 months old. Yeah, like he had a say in that...

[SARDOC]

Violating the law is generally grounds for dismissal, therefore we don't allow anyone to join if we are aware they are violating the law.  Period.

I hate to be nitpicky and I'm not a lawyer.  If you terminated the membership of a Cadet and you did so because they were "violating" the law because of their immigration status, you would be incorrect.  Misconduct according to CAPR 35-3, by violating the law refers to things that would result in charges or convictions of felonies or misdemeanors or in the case of a minor charges that would have been felonies or misdemeanors if an adult was charged with the same charge.  Being an illegal immigrant is neither a Felony or Misdemeanor, It's a Civil violation.

Now If you were to dismiss a cadet for this under 35-3 i would use

(6) Loss of the status "admitted for permanent residence" by an alien member other than by acquiring citizenship to the U.S. 

[jimmydeanno]

Joining CAP isn't illegal.

No it's not. But being in the country without permission is. Allowing them to act like someone that is allowed to be here is perpetuating their illegal status.

Would you deny membership to a lawful US citizen that is 12 years old, but lives in a meth house?  They're just as liable for their "illegal activity" as the 12 year old immigrant's kid.  We really shouldn't care about a cadet's immigration status, there is no detriment at all to their being a member, other than people's personal position on immigration - all of which has nothing to do with a minor, who has no choice in where they live or who their parents are.

You're missing the point. The 12 year old you speak of has done nothing illegal. The 12 year old illegal alien,  just by standing on American soil is breaking the law.

On the contrary, he hasn't reported the crime occurring in his home, so that's misprison of a felony. 

Either way, CAP isn't INS and we have no need to be.  We are a private non-profit corporation.  We have volunteer membership, so our volunteers don't fall under the federal employment laws (we check the IDs of our actual paid employees).  Our "show me your papers" policy is self-inflicted and nobody can give any reason as to why we do it other than "because our regulations say so."  It seems circular to me.

If we want to base it off of precendent, JROTC doesn't check immigration status for enrollment.  Their cadets still hang out on Air Force Bases, fly in airplanes, get uniforms, go on field trips, attend encampment (SLS), and participate.  So, it can't be the Air Force imposing this rule on us.

There is no detriment to having a cadet who is not a citizen or doesn't have residency status.  Those minors are no more responsible for their status than the kid living in the meth house, both of whom are technically guilty of "crimes."  They can't help that their parents brought them to the US.  They can't help that their parents never applied for citizenship paperwork. 

When they turn 18, that's a different story. 

Before then, the worst that happens is we inspire some kid to love aviation and the United States.

[SARDOC]

You're missing the point. The 12 year old you speak of has done nothing illegal. The 12 year old illegal alien,  just by standing on American soil is breaking the law.

Things are not always that Black and White.  Especially, Where Immigration is concerned.  Immigration violations are violations of Civil code, not Criminal code.  There are some states that have implemented State Laws that have actually made it a Criminal Charge within state limits. Arizona and Alabama are examples of this.  Those laws are currently being challenged for their constitutionality.  Immigration issues can be very complicated that's why some "illegal" Immigrants are actually here legally while awaiting hearings which can sometimes take Years.  The Obama administration has actually sped up the process.  More immigrants have been deported under the Obama administration than at any point in history.

[SARDOC]

Either way, CAP isn't INS and we have no need to be.  We are a private non-profit corporation.  We have volunteer membership, so our volunteers don't fall under the federal employment laws (we check the IDs of our actual paid employees).  Our "show me your papers" policy is self-inflicted and nobody can give any reason as to why we do it other than "because our regulations say so."  It seems circular to me.

If we want to base it off of precendent, JROTC doesn't check immigration status for enrollment.  Their cadets still hang out on Air Force Bases, fly in airplanes, get uniforms, go on field trips, attend encampment (SLS), and participate.  So, it can't be the Air Force imposing this rule on us.

There is no detriment to having a cadet who is not a citizen or doesn't have residency status.  Those minors are no more responsible for their status than the kid living in the meth house, both of whom are technically guilty of "crimes."  They can't help that their parents brought them to the US.  They can't help that their parents never applied for citizenship paperwork. 

When they turn 18, that's a different story. 

Before then, the worst that happens is we inspire some kid to love aviation and the United States.

I think one of the reasons we check is that the Federal Government actually provides us with Insurance in the event of death or injury.

JROTC cadets are not provided insurance, and their status is usually challenged by the school districts.

[PHall]

You know, if you guys actually took a look at the current CAP Form 15 you would see that it requires both a SSAN and that you need to provide proof of citizenship. Stuff like a passport, a birth certicicate, a Green Card, etc...
Seems like they've already solved this "problem" for you.

Next disaster please....

[SarDragon]

It very closely resembles the I-9 that employers have to use.

[SARDOC]

You know, if you guys actually took a look at the current CAP Form 15 you would see that it requires both a SSAN and that you need to provide proof of citizenship. Stuff like a passport, a birth certicicate, a Green Card, etc...
Seems like they've already solved this "problem" for you.

Proof of Citizenship?  No.  You do not have to be a US Citizen to be in Civil Air Patrol.  But you do have to be here legally.  If an immigrant is here legally they can get a Social Security Number as well.

[SarDragon]

People ineligible for SSANs can still get a Taxpayer Identification Number (TIN).

[JeffDG]

Joining CAP isn't illegal.

No it's not. But being in the country without permission is. Allowing them to act like someone that is allowed to be here is perpetuating their illegal status.

Actually, no...it isn't.

There is no crime in the US Code outlawing being in the United States unlawfully.  None, zero, zip.

There is a crime for illegal entry into the United States, but it's rather difficult for a very young child to form the requisite mens rea to commit such a crime.  While it is true that their parents have committed a crime, the child most likely has not, and there is that whole prohibition on "corruption of blood" in the US Constitution.

[JeffDG]

People ineligible for SSANs can still get a Taxpayer Identification Number (TIN).

ITINs are available, only when you can show proof of legal presence.

When I came to the United States, my daughter came with me in an "L-2" status.  That status does not authorize employment (at least for children, L-2 spouses of L-1 workers can work), and as such she was not eligible for a SSN.  We filed for an ITIN for her. 

You should have seen the quizical looks everyone from doctors to her school on down gave us when they asked for her SSN and we said "She is not eligible to have an SSN"

[JeffDG]

You know, if you guys actually took a look at the current CAP Form 15 you would see that it requires both a SSAN and that you need to provide proof of citizenship. Stuff like a passport, a birth certicicate, a Green Card, etc...
Seems like they've already solved this "problem" for you.

Proof of Citizenship?  No.  You do not have to be a US Citizen to be in Civil Air Patrol.  But you do have to be here legally.  If an immigrant is here legally they can get a Social Security Number as well.

Neither of those is correct.

In order to be a member of CAP, you need to be a US Citizen or a Lawful Permanent Resident.  If you are legally in the US in any number of other statuses, you require a waiver up to NHQ (trust me, I did this!).

Many people could well be eligible for such waivers but not be eligible for SSNs.  Above I mentioned L-2 children of L-1 workers are not SSN elibible.  H-4 children of H-1b workers are also ineligible.  TN-2 children of Canadian/Mexican TN-1 (NAFTA treaty visas) are not eligible to work and are thus ineligible for SSNs.

[JeffDG]

I think one of the reasons we check is that the Federal Government actually provides us with Insurance in the event of death or injury.

Not for cadets under the age of 18 they don't.  FTCA/FECA only kick in for personnel over the age of 18.  Younger cadets are covered only by corporate insurance.

[JeffDG]

You're missing the point. The 12 year old you speak of has done nothing illegal. The 12 year old illegal alien,  just by standing on American soil is breaking the law.

Please cite the portion of the US Code that your hypothetical 12 year old is violating just by standing on US Soil, please.

[SARDOC]

You know, if you guys actually took a look at the current CAP Form 15 you would see that it requires both a SSAN and that you need to provide proof of citizenship. Stuff like a passport, a birth certicicate, a Green Card, etc...
Seems like they've already solved this "problem" for you.

Proof of Citizenship?  No.  You do not have to be a US Citizen to be in Civil Air Patrol.  But you do have to be here legally.  If an immigrant is here legally they can get a Social Security Number as well.

Neither of those is correct.

In order to be a member of CAP, you need to be a US Citizen or a Lawful Permanent Resident.  If you are legally in the US in any number of other statuses, you require a waiver up to NHQ (trust me, I did this!).

Many people could well be eligible for such waivers but not be eligible for SSNs.  Above I mentioned L-2 children of L-1 workers are not SSN elibible.  H-4 children of H-1b workers are also ineligible.  TN-2 children of Canadian/Mexican TN-1 (NAFTA treaty visas) are not eligible to work and are thus ineligible for SSNs.

I agree.  There are many tools available when immigrating to this country to establish presence.  The above is just one avenue.  There are waivers available for other needs for immigrants to get an actual SSAN.  If you deal with the federal government long enough you will realize everything is waiverable.  It's not always easy and requires special circumstances...that's why my statement wasn't as specific as yours.  Good information though.


This is a general catch all statement found on SSA's website.  I'm sure if I really dug I could find more.

If you are not authorized by DHS to work in the United States, you can get a Social Security number only if you can prove you need it for a valid non-work reason. That might happen, for example, if a state or federal law requires you to have a Social Security number to obtain benefits to which you have already established entitlement.   

Our wing, we had a member who was neither a Citizen or Lawful permanent resident.  He was actually a member of a foreign military service and just happened to be assigned here for 5 years.  He was one of the best mission pilots we had.  I knew there was a waiver process, but they are still allowed to become members...it just requires the waiver.