Railroad Track Patrols -- A New Mission for CAP?

[PHall]

IIRC, the AOPA had some real heartburn with the "Drop In" program.

[bosshawk]

Actually, Drop In was an FAA program, looking for planes with certain, noted tail numbers and those that looked like they had come from unimproved airstrips.  I actually flew one with an FAA security guy with me.  You are right, it went over with the GA crowd like a lead weight and was soon terminated.  If I recall, CD crews were utilized because they had gone through the usual LE screening, while most other CAP crews had not.

[JC004]

The information was published on a railroad hobbyists site/list server that was discussing using railroad hobbyists as a security assistance due to the large amount of track and staffing issues ALL railroads face.  It also named other railroad lines and what they were doing.

My lord...

Yes.

Would they build model train sets around the tracks or something?

[Flying Pig]

Here is an 80K solution: http://www.skyimd.com/


Innovative solutions for aerial imaging
SkyIMD provides complete solutions to extend your existing ISR solution as well as SkyFusion Pak, a turnkey ISR solution.
Extend and enhance your current solution
SkyIMD can help you extend and enhance the ISR sensors you own now by adding capability to:

• Image and video sharing
  Real-time motion detection
  Mesh data links (3G, 4G, satellite, microwave)
  Analytics, GIS video database, image enhancement
  NVG displays

Get the SkyFusion Pak
A turnkey system, SkyFusion Pak is a breaththrough in value, portability and functionality.

• STC approved for helicopters and small aircraft
  3 hours initial install
  Lightweight: only 7 pounds
  Email pictures to mobile phones
  Video streaming via 3G
  Track vehicles from 5,000 AGL

I am setting up a demo with the company through work.  I am interested in their mapping system, since I already have the camera.  They have a 182 that is fully equipped so when they do a demo, you actually get to touch it and operate it.  Ill let you all know how it goes.

[RADIOMAN015]

Well it looks to me like that any airborne observations would be very difficult to spot track problems unless some sort of electronic/optic device in the aircraft could automatically spot this.

Maybe ground forces "Track Watch" programs may be the way to go, BUT the railroad definitely would not want non employees walking their tracks to look for problems.  Likely it may just be a program such as AMTRAK has.

Likely it will be rail fan hobbyists that may be of the most help to the railroads BUT here again CAP does need new ground type missions, but will be challenged by definitions as to what is observation versus surveillance.
RM 

[Flying Pig]

Personally, I dont think its anything CAP needs to be involved in. Railroads already do their own track patrols and maintenance. State Police or other LE agencies can/may/do patrol tracks if needed. Railroads have their own dedicated LE agencies already. Let BNSF buy their own 172 and patrol their own tracks vs the tax payer footing the bill. If it becomes a real issue then I think Law Enforcment needs to handle it.  AMTRAK has aircraft as Im sure the others do as well.  I know CAPers love to look at potential assignments but I dont believe patrolling tracks needs to be one of them at this point.


http://police.amtrak.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkAgbLM2eqY
http://www.unionpacific.jobs/careers/apply/descr.cfm?REQN_NBR=056690

[RADIOMAN015]

Personally, I dont think its anything CAP needs to be involved in. Railroads already do their own track patrols and maintenance. State Police or other LE agencies can/may/do patrol tracks if needed. Railroads have their own dedicated LE agencies already. Let BNSF buy their own 172 and patrol their own tracks vs the tax payer footing the bill. If it becomes a real issue then I think Law Enforcment needs to handle it.  AMTRAK has aircraft as Im sure the others do as well.  I know CAPers love to look at potential assignments but I dont believe patrolling tracks needs to be one of them at this point.


http://police.amtrak.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkAgbLM2eqY
http://www.unionpacific.jobs/careers/apply/descr.cfm?REQN_NBR=056690

I do understand your concern and also what would be Civil Air Patrol's effectiveness in performing these type of "patrols".  (Also some public safety officials see any volunteer effort as cutting into their potential overtime in a homeland security overtime/special detail gig), HOWEVER, regardless of the recruiting videos, their police/security forces are basically working the railroad yards where trains are stopped and very little track patrols, and as the video shows grade crossing accident investigations.  There just isn't the staffing to adequately cover the entire track right of way.  In the end they are going to have to depend upon some sort of citizen's watch program.

BTW The US Army Reserve actually has railroad units and they usually train (pun huh?) on local railroad tracks with rented locomotives.   Part of their training is rail security.

RM       

[ol'fido]

Let's boil this down to logistics. You know the old military saw, "Amateurs study strategy and tactics, but professionals study logistics." There are approx. 140,500 miles of Class 1 track in the U.S. There are three(3) other classes of track in the country as well. If we just patrolled the Class 1 track on a daily basis using every aircraft in the inventory(+ or - 550), each of those aircraft would have to patrol approx. 255 miles of track or about a 2-3 hr sortie/aircraft/day. If we added the Class 2 and 3 tracks, this would probably double those hours flown. So about every 2-3 weeks, the entire fleet would have to go through a 100 hour inspection at (how much per aircraft, come on pilots help me here).With our budgets woes of the last few years, I don't think the AF is ready to pay for that much maintenance to patrol railroads for minimal effect.

[Flying Pig]

Personally, I dont think its anything CAP needs to be involved in. Railroads already do their own track patrols and maintenance. State Police or other LE agencies can/may/do patrol tracks if needed. Railroads have their own dedicated LE agencies already. Let BNSF buy their own 172 and patrol their own tracks vs the tax payer footing the bill. If it becomes a real issue then I think Law Enforcment needs to handle it.  AMTRAK has aircraft as Im sure the others do as well.  I know CAPers love to look at potential assignments but I dont believe patrolling tracks needs to be one of them at this point.


http://police.amtrak.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkAgbLM2eqY
http://www.unionpacific.jobs/careers/apply/descr.cfm?REQN_NBR=056690

I do understand your concern and also what would be Civil Air Patrol's effectiveness in performing these type of "patrols". (Also some public safety officials see any volunteer effort as cutting into their potential overtime in a homeland security overtime/special detail gig), HOWEVER, regardless of the recruiting videos, their police/security forces are basically working the railroad yards where trains are stopped and very little track patrols, and as the video shows grade crossing accident investigations.  There just isn't the staffing to adequately cover the entire track right of way.  In the end they are going to have to depend upon some sort of citizen's watch program.

BTW The US Army Reserve actually has railroad units and they usually train (pun huh?) on local railroad tracks with rented locomotives.   Part of their training is rail security.

RM       

Yeah, thats a line CAP members like to use when they try to justify a program....."But we are free."  But in reality its far from the case.  But good job on trying to discredit the reasons we in LE have chosen our profession.  Yes, we prefer not to use volunteers because we want the OT. :clap: Thinking this would be done on OT really shows your level of understanding about how this would work.  But good job trying to play the part.  Again, if there is a threat, the railroads will be the first to protect their own infrastructure.  Being that its how they make their living.  Once they actually decide that patrolling the rails from the air is needed, youll see them start doing it.

[Flying Pig]

........and let me add,  Ill be the first to admit that air support is often one of the most over used assets available.  I think patrolling tracks from a Cessna 182 at 1000AGL would be a complete waste of time for anyone to do it.

[RADIOMAN015]

Let's boil this down to logistics. You know the old military saw, "Amateurs study strategy and tactics, but professionals study logistics." There are approx. 140,500 miles of Class 1 track in the U.S. There are three(3) other classes of track in the country as well. If we just patrolled the Class 1 track on a daily basis using every aircraft in the inventory(+ or - 550), each of those aircraft would have to patrol approx. 255 miles of track or about a 2-3 hr sortie/aircraft/day. If we added the Class 2 and 3 tracks, this would probably double those hours flown. So about every 2-3 weeks, the entire fleet would have to go through a 100 hour inspection at (how much per aircraft, come on pilots help me here).With our budgets woes of the last few years, I don't think the AF is ready to pay for that much maintenance to patrol railroads for minimal effect.

Very good analysis, BUT it shows the difficult of ANY air support in providing patrols.  The cost of helicopters are extreme, how many flying hours can you get on a budget with that platform .   Now from my perspective did the American people really need to know what was in those terrorist potential plans    Don't you think that this puts pressure on the various political levels to do "something" (e.g. homeland security "drama"), and also don't you think that to a certain extent terrorism is successful because it does put fear into what "might happen on the train" and results in additional expenditures for visible security protection    Does the current protection employed really protect the daily & recreational train riders   Hopefully we've got real good intelligence to know when & where BUT this is a daunting task to protect every mile of commuter & passenger rail train tracks
RM

[RADIOMAN015]

Yeah, thats a line CAP members like to use when they try to justify a program....."But we are free."  But in reality its far from the case.  But good job on trying to discredit the reasons we in LE have chosen our profession.  Yes, we prefer not to use volunteers because we want the OT. :clap: Thinking this would be done on OT really shows your level of understanding about how this would work.  But good job trying to play the part.  Again, if there is a threat, the railroads will be the first to protect their own infrastructure.  Being that its how they make their living.  Once they actually decide that patrolling the rails from the air is needed, youll see them start doing it.

Of course public safety officers want overtime (recently a regional newspaper published some of the overtime pay versus the base salary, and also mentioned that it helps boost the officer's retirement in some states/communities -- gee I wish those military warriors could get a boost in their retirement for what they've gone through in a war zone ), and don't you think in some wings with any talks with state officials have to be carefully framed so that CAP doesn't take anything away (or appear to be taking away) from public safety employees.  HOWEVER, I agree with you that CAP may very well be ineffective in this mission.  Also I do have respect for any public safety official, BUT it is what it is, and I know what I observe now and what happen right after "9/11".

HOWEVER, the railroads are not prepared (for this type of patrol duty) with the number of police/security officers they have either so they will either look to some private security firms to assist OR will ask local police departments (that really don't have the money in their budgets to do this because I already know this working in a facility weekdays next to the tracks and talking with our local town police officer that patrols our sector).   There's really only so many police officers on duty in any community or even the state (and in some places county) and if they start getting lots of calls for suspicious activity on the tracks and have to continually respond, it is going to have an affect on every community.  So likely there will be political pressure for some sort of homeland security grant going on this one :angel:     
RM

[ol'fido]

Sweet mother of Mercy!! Take the friggin' BUS!!! Done!

[Flying Pig]

Whenever someone tries to make an argument about a certain pay scales in public safety professions, they always go with the, "Wow, I wish the military members overseas separated from their families and getting blown up could make what what cops make. "  Sorry, its a tired comparison.  However, any of those vets are more than welcome to apply to law enforcement when they separate from service.  Just like I did.

As far as railroad patrol goes, I think its a daunting task.  I think for real security though, like I said previously, airplanes motoring up and down the tracks will do nothing.  I regularly fly rail lines at 500 AGL and below in a helicopter when Im just flying patrol.  Not patrolling the rail lines particularly, just being proactive in my patrol area between calls for service from the ground guys, and believe me, there are A LOT of people, vehicles and debris on rail lines.  Without the ability to literally land immediately and address an issue, its a waste of time.  But the cost of using a helicopter would be outrageous and CAP doesnt even have them.  And to have the ability or authority to land and contact people we determined might be "suspicious" enough to warrant being contacted would be something far out of the scope of CAP anyway.  So in my opinion, if your going to look at aviation as a possible patrol method, it needs to be done in helicopters, staffed by cops with guns.  Many might point to CD as a similarity, however, keeping details out of the post, it trust me, it wouldnt be the same.

[blackrain]

I come back after a few days in the field and this thread has taken off   (pardon the pun)  Do any railroads use remotely operated track inspection vehichles?

As much as I love getting flying missions for CAP, I have to say that unless someone got lucky and caught the bad guys in the actual act of sabotage, an aircraft is just too high and fast to see most cases of a sabotaged track.

[PHall]

Railroad tracks are usually inspected by a track maintenance person in a pick up truck that is equipped to run on the rails.
It's pretty much the Mark I eyeball and what the seat of your pants tells you.

[jimmydeanno]

Whenever someone tries to make an argument about a certain pay scales in public safety professions, they always go with the, "Wow, I wish the military members overseas separated from their families and getting blown up could make what what cops make. "  Sorry, its a tired comparison.  However, any of those vets are more than welcome to apply to law enforcement when they separate from service.  Just like I did.

Of course the use of volunteers to replace overtime for paid professionals is going to cause some heartburn with those paid professionals.  In my last wing, we got picked up to do fire patrols for the state forest.  Traditionally, they had towers on top of the mountains with a paid forestry guy who would stand watch for fires.

A few weeks after CAP was contracted to do the work, there were a bunch of news articles about the state laying off those fire tower workers.  With that, a rift was developed. 

Overtime pay is a serious draw for people that its available to.  I have a few LE friends who can double, or even triple their base salaries each year by picking up OT shifts.  If those went away, they'd have a serious financial issue.  If it was because a group of volunteers did it, I can almost guarantee that the LE types making the decision on whether or not to use volunteers would hesitate to do so in the future.

Sadly, you just can't mess with people's paychecks and expect a good reaction.

[NIN]

I was reading a thing about airborne track inspection the other day in a helicopter magazine (A coffee & a magazine at Borders is a great way to blow an hour or two on a Saturday while your kid is at a birthday party).  Basically, they're using FLIR-type systems from helicopters and fixed wing aircraft in some places (Europe?) to do both track and cantenary-wire inspections (especially when there is electrical power distribution occurring, because a problem is usually indicated by a heat source).

Unfortunately, the Mk I, Mod 0 eyeball at 100kts and 1000 ft AGL is probably not the best thing to look for "sabotage."  Unless Mr. I-Hate-Americans is digging holes in the track bed to emplace an IED or removing entire lengths of track, its going to be hard to see most forms of track sabotage from the air.

Many years ago there was a system that the MI ARNG was helping to test on the Cp Grayling ranges (this would be pre-1995, as I was in the ARNG at the time) that did some kind of "airborne scene change detection" both in the visible and non-visible spectrums.  Somehow they'd fly over an area and image the place, and then fly over the next day and the system would be able to pick out the "differences" even if they did not fly exactly the same track, heading, etc.

I wish I could recall the contractor or the system. I seem to recall they had this on a fixed wing aircraft, but I don't recall if it was like a King Air or a Herk.

But in any event, that kind of a system, which detects minute changes in an environment, would be key to that sort of surveillance.  Physically fixed objects like electrical poles, RR tracks and that sort of thing would make great reference points for any sort of computer-based correlation of image data.  Its not like a phone pole moves between days.

And its probably way, way outside what CAP would be willing to support, either financially or operationally.

[Major Carrales]

Railroad sabotage would be very subtle.  It might require pulling spikes on a large section of rail (lots of which is continuous welded rail and would be hard to see), messing with tie plates and rail joiners and maintaining the electrical current that serves as a warning.  Take note...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Palo_Verde,_Arizona_derailment


If someone was out there, and committed these acts, they would not be obvious from an aircraft.  The situation would most likely be one where some group was "caught in the act."  At which time CAP would simply report suspicious activity along the track from the Railroad Police or other authorities to handle. 

By the way: They never caught the "Sons of the Gestapo", if they existed at all. 

[ProdigalJim]

Just as a point of information on this thread, here's a summary (not verbatim) of what Amtrak Chairman Joe Boardman told a Senate Appropriations subcommittee yesterday, during a hearing on fiscal 2012 rail funding, on security-related issues:

>>I'd like to start by addressing the security concerns raised by the intel capture in the Osama bin Laden raid.  Amtrak currently works with RailPol, an international, interagency policing taskforce.  We use this relationship to keep abreast of cutting edge security.  Amtrak is most concerned about an external attack at a vulnerable point—a bridge or tunnel.  Looking at systems that would allow us to detect track tampering.<<

Answering Sen. Patty Murray (again, notes, not verbatim):

>> "Very strong" relationship with Dept. of Homeland Security, with "almost daily talks."  Amtrak received $200 million in security grants.  We've used a large portion to expand the K-9 program.  See something, say something.  Actually provided police and security in Alabama during this year's storms.  Continue to regularly engage in irregular screening.  No-ride list is hard; Amtrak handles 600-700k commuters on a weekday.   <<

Sen. Susan Collins asked what can be done to monitor exposed sections of rail. Boardman replied:

>> There is a laser technology that can be attached to locomotives, allowing them to monitor the soundness and gauge of rail, detect any tampering.  This has only been proposed for 40mph operations, which works for freight trains but not passenger.  R&D money is needed to explore these possibilities.  Amtrak has already categorized vulnerable points in our network after 9/11.  We have routine patrols of these areas. <<

Asked about relying more on local LE resources, Boardman answered:

>> There is room for improvement there.  But trains are dangerous, and even well-trained crews have lost their lives working around tracks.  Need to make sure that people on our right-of-ways have the right kind of training. <<