Railroad Track Patrols -- A New Mission for CAP?

[RADIOMAN015]

With recent documents found in the raid in Pakistan regarding attacks on passenger trains wonder if CAP could be effective in patrol the nation's railroad tracks.   Awhile back one senior level CAP leader mentioned that the USAF was considering installing Predator type sensor in more CAP aircraft (actually I thought what was actually all CAP aircraft).
Wow, wouldn't that be something with many CAP aircraft being the aerial platform and being directed by sensor operators elsewhere via a secure SATCOM link :clap:

Here's an example of a terrorist incident in Arizona, which I don't think was ever solved:
http://www.weyrich.com/political_issues/sunset_limited.html

This could be a very interesting and busy time for Civil Air Patrol IF an appropriate less costly sensor can be developed to easily discover track issues.   Of course it is also possible that terrorists could be waiting for a passenger train to come by and attack the train right at that time with IED placed on the tracks and various weapons used to further harm passengers on the train.   I guess the question may be --- will CAP be patrolling just ahead of EVERY passenger train in the nation, randomly patrolling, or is this just my fantasy (and likely others)
RM     

[Check Pilot/Tow Pilot]

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[Eclipse]

will CAP be patrolling just ahead of EVERY passenger train in the nation, randomly patrolling, or is this just my fantasy (and likely others)

No, they won't, and it's no one's fantasy.

We are not law enforcement, an this would be well outside out mandate and mission.  There are plenty of local police, rail security, and others already charged with that job.

[JoeTomasone]

will CAP be patrolling just ahead of EVERY passenger train in the nation, randomly patrolling, or is this just my fantasy (and likely others)

No, they won't, and it's no one's fantasy.

We are not law enforcement, an this would be well outside out mandate and mission.  There are plenty of local police, rail security, and others already charged with that job.

CD.

Just sayin'...

[RiverAux]

I have a hard time believing that any government agency would want to spend the sort of money that this would take to do this on any sort of regular basis.  I doubt the railroads would be interested either.  There are an infinite number of targets that the bad guys could go after and while these are among them, I doubt it would be worth it. 

[manfredvonrichthofen]

While there is strong evidence of a plan to attack a train on September 11 2011, the likely hood of them actually trying it anytime soon is slim. Alqaeda will be spending quite some time arguing over what will happen next and who will succeed Bin Laden as their Sheik and holy warrior. As of now, the most likely candidate is Anwar al-Awlaki. However, he is nowhere near as charismatic, influential or even as strong of a warrior as Bin Laden, and there will be much conflict between the higher ups as to who will take his place. During times like these there is little movement in the tribe, in this case, regime. Most of all their operations will be centered around a  table and bread and chai.

When a new Sheik is named, there will be a good portion of time spent with the new Sheik letting the world know who he is and how he stands. After that, they will most likely retrieve the body of Bin Laden. I know, most think that Muslims believe that the body is never to be disturbed. However, Bin Laden was never given a proper burial according to them, and the circumstances of his death will lead him to Allah no matter how he was buried and they will parade his body in celebration. Then will come the time for retaliation and attack. 

Their first step to retaliating will most likely be to attempt to take full control of Pakistan. They will likely then uniform their followers, and force others in Pakistan to join them. Only then will they try to attack us here at home. Likely they will attempt the same sort of thing they did in 2001. However, they will atleast be smart enough not to try the exact same thing with planes. The Alqaeda believe strongly in the valor of giving their life for their cause, so they will likely still use suicide tactics to attack us at home. Scanning the roadways and rail systems will likely be fruitless because they will try to insert themselves into the target and detonate their bomb from within. You will not be able to see them from the air. Locating them will take some tactics that are not favorable outside of a war zone, and will take good training to know what you are looking for. Marshals and military along with NSA and DHLS agents will be needed on the ground and in the transportation systems as well as malls and large churches so that they can see the people and PID the potential threat. None of this can be done from the air.

The use of remote IEDs is unlikely in a target country. The tactic is used for followers who are trained to actually fight, not by those in another country who have just learned to blend in. This has been proven countless times. Very very seldom have Alqaeda or Mujaheddin for that matter used remote detonation in a country with which they have declared jihad. While they are operating in Iraq and Afghanistan, they have not declared jihad with Iraq or Afghanistan as they have with the USA, that is why they use much more remote detonated IEDs than suicide tactics.

PLEASE NOTE, THIS IS ONLY MY PERSONAL OPINION, NOTHING MORE. YMMV.

[PHall]

Railroads have their own police departments. They don't need our "help".

[RRLE]

It would be awfully hard to impossible to find a problem with a railroad track from several hundred to several thousand feet in the air.

Now something like the unmanned Sikorsky Cypher might be ideal. Too bad it never entered production. A small unmanned vehicle could fly over the tracks and stop and hover when something suspicious was spotted. And the operator would be in a safe remote spot.

[RADIOMAN015]

Railroads have their own police departments. They don't need our "help".

Not an expert on this but I understand one line the CSX has only 2 security ("special agent") personnel between Selkirk NY terminal & Boston MA termination point (which Amtrak uses part of their rail system).  They mostly concentrate on railroad yards where RR cars are stopped, to prevent larcenies.   Also Amtrak use New England Central Railroad track (going to Vermont) and I'm not sure if they even have a security department.

Amtrak Police/Security information can be found at: http://police.amtrak.com/   Notice the request for assistance from travelers and others IF they see something out of place.
 
RM

[RRLE]

Track inspection is a separate department from security. It is the track inspectors who would probably find evidence of sabotage. Track inspectors have some really neat stuff to do their jobs with. Here is a sampling of stuff from a UK company. Rail Maintenance and Track Inspection Vehicles.

Sometimes the inspection vehicle is nothing more sophisticated then a standard van with a small set of railroad wheels fore and aft. The van drives up onto the tracks and lowers the railroad wheels. Once engaged the regular tires ride on the rails to provide locomotion.

Also see Wikipedia article: Track Checker

[Eclipse]

Railroads have their own police departments. They don't need our "help".

Not an expert on this but I understand one line the CSX has only 2 security ("special agent") personnel between Selkirk NY terminal & Boston MA termination point (which Amtrak uses part of their rail system).  They mostly concentrate on railroad yards where RR cars are stopped, to prevent larcenies.   Also Amtrak use New England Central Railroad track (going to Vermont) and I'm not sure if they even have a security department.

Excellent.   Why not upload some maps that show the most difficult places to see?

I don't even know why you think you need that information, but providing that sort or thing publicly is really, really, dumb, especially if it is just to make a point about how informed you are about information you shouldn't even have.

It doesn't even matter if that info is readily available elsewhere, or through FOIA, or any other "smoking gun" source.

[Flying Pig]

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  Real-time motion detection
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  NVG displays

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A turnkey system, SkyFusion Pak is a breaththrough in value, portability and functionality.

• STC approved for helicopters and small aircraft
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  Lightweight: only 7 pounds
  Email pictures to mobile phones
  Video streaming via 3G
  Track vehicles from 5,000 AGL

Hmmmm,  I like it.

[Persona non grata]

We are the CIVIL Air Patrol..........did I get it right RM?

[blackrain]

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Innovative solutions for aerial imaging
SkyIMD provides complete solutions to extend your existing ISR solution as well as SkyFusion Pak, a turnkey ISR solution.
Extend and enhance your current solution
SkyIMD can help you extend and enhance the ISR sensors you own now by adding capability to:

• Image and video sharing
  Real-time motion detection
  Mesh data links (3G, 4G, satellite, microwave)
  Analytics, GIS video database, image enhancement
  NVG displays

Get the SkyFusion Pak
A turnkey system, SkyFusion Pak is a breaththrough in value, portability and functionality.

• STC approved for helicopters and small aircraft
  3 hours initial install
  Lightweight: only 7 pounds
  Email pictures to mobile phones
  Video streaming via 3G
  Track vehicles from 5,000 AGL

Hmmmm,  I like it.

Sounds like a great company consulting opportunity for a California LE Pilot or possibly former Army Mohawk Pilot given it's California location

[RADIOMAN015]

Railroads have their own police departments. They don't need our "help".

Not an expert on this but I understand one line the CSX has only 2 security ("special agent") personnel between Selkirk NY terminal & Boston MA termination point (which Amtrak uses part of their rail system).  They mostly concentrate on railroad yards where RR cars are stopped, to prevent larcenies.   Also Amtrak use New England Central Railroad track (going to Vermont) and I'm not sure if they even have a security department.

Excellent.   Why not upload some maps that show the most difficult places to see?

I don't even know why you think you need that information, but providing that sort or thing publicly is really, really, dumb, especially if it is just to make a point about how informed you are about information you shouldn't even have.

It doesn't even matter if that info is readily available elsewhere, or through FOIA, or any other "smoking gun" source.

The information was published on a railroad hobbyists site/list server that was discussing using railroad hobbyists as a security assistance due to the large amount of track and staffing issues ALL railroads face.  It also named other railroad lines and what they were doing.  I guess we really are dealing with dumb terrorists that likely wouldn't be interested in just reading/researching the various list servers open to the public when their leader had that as one of the plans .  Seems to me at least some CAP members need a reality check on what terrorist are capable of doing with relative easy.  (I'm glad I never take the train anywhere anyways).  Anyone with access to Google earth or maps would be able to easily determine non populated areas that the tracks run through.

The Arizona incident is a perfect example of something that didn't even need any explosives but derailed the passenger train. 

I'll even heard that because of budget issues many if not most rural/small town police forces abutting the tracks will not even be proactive in patrolling track areas for trespassers, BUT will only be reactive IF a trespass call is received.

Also what is interesting is to the best of my knowledge NONE of the railroads have been proactive to property owners along the tracks right of way (or even access roads a distance away that go down to the tracks) , even to ask for their help (Why not just pay CAP to have cadets deliver a 1 or 2 page security fact sheet (with RR security toll free numbers) to everyone along the tracks right of ways  asking for assistance , There's plenty of ground teams that have been on absolutely no missions in a long time, this could be a simple but yet potentially effective mission).  My workplace is next to a main line track area and IF we find anyone on our property parked etc, they are trespassing (we have signs) and the police are called and respond.  However, we aren't doing this because of the railroad tracks we are doing this because the individuals (sometimes rail hobbyists) are trespassing on our property (e.g. liability & security issues).

Do we as CAP members (and the entire CAP organization/leadership structure)  just sit back and let things happen or can we be PROACTIVE in the air and on the ground in assisting with track security via "observation" patrols (which I'm confident are legal under our charter since surveillance means following a specific target).

Would CAP be able to "observe patrol" every mainline railroad track in the US , likely not, and the effectiveness of this without night vision/close up view technology, would be questionable anyways.   It is likely in those states that have Law Enforcement helicopters with appropriate sensor technology, likely would get the night patrol missions.

It does get down to the cost versus benefit of all of this.  Remember that all of "9/11" could have been prevented if the pilots didn't open up the cockpit door and instead buckled in and sharp turned the aircraft and dove down to the closest airport.   Perhaps since railroads don't carry as many people and it would be a more localized terrorist attack other than railroad terminal 'drama" homeland security (e.g. cops with automatic weapons and bomb/attack detection dogs), nothing else will be done
RM 

[Eclipse]

The information was published on a railroad hobbyists site/list server that was discussing using railroad hobbyists as a security assistance due to the large amount of track and staffing issues ALL railroads face.  It also named other railroad lines and what they were doing.

My lord...

[RADIOMAN015]

The information was published on a railroad hobbyists site/list server that was discussing using railroad hobbyists as a security assistance due to the large amount of track and staffing issues ALL railroads face.  It also named other railroad lines and what they were doing.

My lord...

No they aren't going to have badges & guns (although I'm sure at least some of them would love to ), the programs being discussed are similar to the AF's "Eagle Eyes" program of observation and reporting.  I do believe those hobbyists were sincere in their efforts to help.  Do a search of youtube on rail fans, these guys (and some girls) chase trains and video tape the trains (many times they know the schedule of the train and the radio frequency for the train dispatcher is monitored and just set up their equipment at an appropriate crossing.   In my area one teenager (which law enforcement determined was not associated with the girl) was video taped jumped right in front of an Amtrak train that missed her by inches and went into emergency breaking mode stopping while they made sure no one was underneath the train.  Law enforcement got the video tape was able to track down the girl and bring her to court for trespassing etc.

Personally I could never get into train watching (but if we pick up any of these mission, would assist with radio communications support) but airplane watching at an airport or appropriate runway approach zone (as well as monitoring the appropriate radio frequencies "on scene" and at home) is a hobby that I enjoy. :angel:
RM
       

[ol'fido]

I seem to remember that in the late '90s National was pushing some sort of program where CAP pilots would fly or drop in to local airports and ask about "suspicious activities". In fact, it may have been called "Operation Drop In" and was part of the national CD program. As I recall, it was not popular with many CAP members and was definitely not popular with the GA community who did not appreciate being asked a lot of questions by people who weren't the FAA or regular police while they were out enjoying some quiet weekend flying.

[Flying Pig]

^Yeah I remember that.  A bunch of civilians with no authority to do anything, walking around in uniforms questioning people.  As if the local police couldnt do it.
It ranks right up there with the CD people who were wearing patches on their flight suits that said "Counter Narcotics Flight Crew" that had a picture of an MJ leaf with a red line through it.

[RiverAux]

^Yeah I remember that.  A bunch of civilians with no authority to do anything, walking around in uniforms questioning people.  As if the local police couldnt do it.

I never thought that program was ever a particularly good fit for CAP, but the local police are not likely to be spending much time doing it either.