Snack food for thought

[arajca]

Since we're dealing with a lot of heavy issues here, I'd like to throw out some lighter fare for thought.

I am working on proposals for the following:
1. Recognition for SM's who complete the CAP Model Rocketry Program. My thought is a star on the Yeager ribbon.
2. Combine the recruiting ribbons and use the same standard for seniors and cadets - 2 recruits for first award, three more (total five) for second, additional awards for every five members recruited thereafter.
3. An ES training ribbon. First award after completing two SAREX's (AF numbered or CAP numbered), second after participating in a total of five, additional awards for every five afterward.

Notes:
1. I'm trying to get seniors involved in the model rocketry program as well as the cadets, afterall, it's the CAP Model Rocketry Program not the CAP Cadet Model Rocketry Program. Also getting seniors involved helps ensure the program will be run and encourages the cadets to get involved. I don't think allowing the Model Rocketry badge for seniors is necessary, but a star on the Yeager is a simple, inexpensive recognition. Besides, it may help encourage some seniors to take the Yeager.

2. Making the recruiting ribbon requirements the same helps reduce confusion about when a member earns the ribbon. At one time, it may hvae been easier for seniors to recruit new members, but from what I have seen and experienced, it is far easier for cadets to recruit new members than for seniors. At the same time, change to one recruiting ribbon for both seniors and cadets.

3. Many members spend considerable amounts of time and money participating the SAREX's to maintain their skills and qualifications. Currently, there is no way to recognize this sacrifice. Participation in rescue missions and DR missions is recognized by distinct awards, but the only 'award' given for training in the ES patch, and that is only after you have received your first ES rating. The missions that would count would be AF numbered SAREX's and CAP numbered exercises open to wing wide participation. Excerises put on by local units for themselves or restricted to invited others only would not count toward this ribbon, due to the restrictive nature of the exercise. A medal for this award would feature the current ES patch on the coin. Precedence would be after the DR ribbon before the Cadet Orientation Pilot ribbon.

Again, these are snack food for thought.

[MIKE]

2. Combine the recruiting ribbons and use the same standard for seniors and cadets - 2 recruits for first award, three more (total five) for second, additional awards for every five members recruited thereafter.

Didn't this go before the NB recently and did not pass?

[AlphaSigOU]

Excellent ideas...

However, I would also encourage participation in other fields within model rocketry, such as competition model rocketry for cadets and senior members or advanced high power for senior members and cadets over 18. They do need to [censored] the existing MR BDU patch and replace it with an embroidered version of the 'pocket rocket'. Perhaps add a gold star on the Goddard ribbon for cadets who complete advanced model rocketry requirements; silver and/or gold star (one or the other, not both) on the Yeager for completion of basic and advanced model rocketry requirements.

I'd rather see a 'middle ground' for the combined recruiter ribbon: five for the initial award, five more (total of 10) for the bronze clasp, and additional bronze clasps for every five thereafter.

I like the ES training ribbon. Not everyone is going to get to go on a real SAR sortie., but it will encourage members to keep their training up.

Here's what I would recommend for the Basic/Advanced Model Rocketry program:

BASIC PROGRAM: No change from CAPM 50-20. Seniors wear silver star on Yeager ribbon.

ADVANCED PROGRAM: Completion of Basic Program and one of the following:

Active participation in NAR sanctioned competition model rocketry events for at least one year as an individual or as a team.

Achieve Level I in the NAR or Tripoli Rocketry Association High Power Certification Program (senior members and cadets over 18 only)

Cadets wear gold star on Goddard ribbon, seniors wear gold star on Yeager ribbon.

Whadda ya think?

[RiverAux]

I agree with the recruiting criteria though we also need a better way of tracking who gets credit for recruiting them. 

I don't see a need for an ES training ribbon.  Your reward for training is staying qualified in a specialty.  We need to encourage people to actually complete the training and this rewards people for doing what they should be doing anyway.  Why not an award for coming to meetings too? 

[Major Carrales]

How about phasing out the RED SERVICE ribbon and replacing it with a device on the MEMBERSHIP ribbon?

[arajca]

I don't see a need for an ES training ribbon.  Your reward for training is staying qualified in a specialty.  We need to encourage people to actually complete the training and this rewards people for doing what they should be doing anyway.

I can go to one SAREX every two years and officially be "current" in all my qualifications. (I usually go to three to five SAREX's per year). That is all that is required. You say we need to encourage people to actually complete the training. Well, I think this does. It's not like we can give them something like money to encourage them. Yes, ES qualified members should be doing this anyway, but then again the majority of the ribbons CAP has are for doing what we should be doing anyway. If a piece of fabric and metal gets more members to attend SAREX's, is it not worth giving the ribbon out? I forgot to add that only SAREX's after receiving your first ES qualification count.

Why not an award for coming to meetings too?

Red Service Ribbon?

[arajca]

How about phasing out the RED SERVICE ribbon and replacing it with a device on the MEMBERSHIP ribbon?

Cadets are not eligible for the Membership Ribbon, but they are eligible for the Red Service Ribbon.

[mikeylikey]

How about phasing out the membership ribbon.  Isn't that one like saying "wow you watched a video and had a few discussions, good job".  At least the Red Service denotes a members time of service.  It's like saying "congrats on sticking through the political and stupid BS we all have to put up with in CAP". 

[arajca]

Excellent ideas...

However, I would also encourage participation in other fields within model rocketry, such as competition model rocketry for cadets and senior members or advanced high power for senior members and cadets over 18. They do need to [censored] the existing MR BDU patch and replace it with an embroidered version of the 'pocket rocket'. Perhaps add a gold star on the Goddard ribbon for cadets who complete advanced model rocketry requirements; silver and/or gold star (one or the other, not both) on the Yeager for completion of basic and advanced model rocketry requirements.
snip
Here's what I would recommend for the Basic/Advanced Model Rocketry program:

BASIC PROGRAM: No change from CAPM 50-20. Seniors wear silver star on Yeager ribbon.

ADVANCED PROGRAM: Completion of Basic Program and one of the following:

Active participation in NAR sanctioned competition model rocketry events for at least one year as an individual or as a team.

Achieve Level I in the NAR or Tripoli Rocketry Association High Power Certification Program (senior members and cadets over 18 only)

Cadets wear gold star on Goddard ribbon, seniors wear gold star on Yeager ribbon.

Whadda ya think?

The idea is good, but how would you define "Active participation in...team"?

[arajca]

How about phasing out the membership ribbon.  Isn't that one like saying "wow you watched a video and had a few discussions, good job".  At least the Red Service denotes a members time of service.  It's like saying "congrats on sticking through the political and stupid BS we all have to put up with in CAP". 

Officially, the Membership Ribbon denotes completion of Level I of the Professional Development Program. The content and quality of the material may leave something to be desired, but that can change.

[Major Carrales]

How about phasing out the membership ribbon.  Isn't that one like saying "wow you watched a video and had a few discussions, good job".  At least the Red Service denotes a members time of service.  It's like saying "congrats on sticking through the political and stupid BS we all have to put up with in CAP". 

OK, if you want a solution to these issues for a more refined point...

1) Membership Ribbon- More Universal.  Awarded after the completion of 1)Level 1/Curry 2) One full year in CAP. (this is what is needed for GES)  Devices awarded to denote 5, 10, 15, 20 et al years of combined CAP service.

[arajca]

2. Combine the recruiting ribbons and use the same standard for seniors and cadets - 2 recruits for first award, three more (total five) for second, additional awards for every five members recruited thereafter.

Didn't this go before the NB recently and did not pass?

A similar proposal did, but there is nothing to say that it can't go up again. The proposal that went up in March reduced the Senior Recruiting ribbon requirements to the Cadet Recruiting ribbon requirements. (first award after two members, additional awards for every three thereafter).

I'd rather see a 'middle ground' for the combined recruiter ribbon: five for the initial award, five more (total of 10) for the bronze clasp, and additional bronze clasps for every five thereafter.

I think if the first one or two awards are easier you'll get more folks trying to earn it. By the time members get five recruits, they'll have their spiel down pat and it'll be easier to recruit more, hence the increase in the requirements.

[arajca]

How about phasing out the membership ribbon.  Isn't that one like saying "wow you watched a video and had a few discussions, good job".  At least the Red Service denotes a members time of service.  It's like saying "congrats on sticking through the political and stupid BS we all have to put up with in CAP". 

OK, if you want a solution to these issues for a more refined point...

1) Membership Ribbon- More Universal.  Awarded after the completion of 1)Level 1/Curry 2) One full year in CAP. (this is what is needed for GES)  Devices awarded to denote 5, 10, 15, 20 et al years of combined CAP service.

So a cadet gets two ribbons for completing Achievement 1, right?

I'll leave recommendations for the Membership Ribbon to others to suggest/submit/propose.

[Major Carrales]

How about phasing out the membership ribbon.  Isn't that one like saying "wow you watched a video and had a few discussions, good job".  At least the Red Service denotes a members time of service.  It's like saying "congrats on sticking through the political and stupid BS we all have to put up with in CAP". 

OK, if you want a solution to these issues for a more refined point...

1) Membership Ribbon- More Universal.  Awarded after the completion of 1)Level 1/Curry 2) One full year in CAP. (this is what is needed for GES)  Devices awarded to denote 5, 10, 15, 20 et al years of combined CAP service.

So a cadet gets two ribbons for completing Achievement 1, right?

I'll leave recommendations for the Membership Ribbon to others to suggest/submit/propose.

Ho hummm...have it your way I'm out of here.  No skin off my back.

[AlphaSigOU]

Excellent ideas...

However, I would also encourage participation in other fields within model rocketry, such as competition model rocketry for cadets and senior members or advanced high power for senior members and cadets over 18. They do need to [censored] the existing MR BDU patch and replace it with an embroidered version of the 'pocket rocket'. Perhaps add a gold star on the Goddard ribbon for cadets who complete advanced model rocketry requirements; silver and/or gold star (one or the other, not both) on the Yeager for completion of basic and advanced model rocketry requirements.
snip
Here's what I would recommend for the Basic/Advanced Model Rocketry program:

BASIC PROGRAM: No change from CAPM 50-20. Seniors wear silver star on Yeager ribbon.

ADVANCED PROGRAM: Completion of Basic Program and one of the following:

Active participation in NAR sanctioned competition model rocketry events for at least one year as an individual or as a team.

Achieve Level I in the NAR or Tripoli Rocketry Association High Power Certification Program (senior members and cadets over 18 only)

Cadets wear gold star on Goddard ribbon, seniors wear gold star on Yeager ribbon.

Whadda ya think?

The idea is good, but how would you define "Active participation in...team"?

'Active participation' - participate in at least four local, regional or national NAR sanctioned competition launches during the calendar year. You can compete as an individual or as part of a team. Could stand to be fleshed out a little more.

[DNall]

Good ideas...

Recruiting: Combine the ribbons, CHECK. The criteria can stay different, or I tell ya what I like more is the first award criteria stay the same as it is now (2 for cadets, 7 for adults), then a standardized number for follow on clasps. 5-7-10 is a more legit number, but it's set at two to motivate brand new cadets to pick up a couple friends in the first few months of service.

Model Rocketry/Adult AE:
1) I'd really like to combine the rocketry curriculum/reqs/badges btwn AFJROTC & CAP. Oh, and an embroidered version of the metal badge for BDU/BBDU rather than the retarded giant merit badge patch.

2) I got no problem recognizing adults on this, but it should be for a dif set of requirements as a model rocketry instructor, not what we require of cadets. A star on Yeager is fine.

3) Honestly I'd like to see a better overall AE program for adults. Break up Yeager into a two part closed book test. That's ribbon & a bronze star, goes silver when you add rocketry instructor ^^

4) Finally, I don't see why we have an AE badge w/ star for master rate AND a crossfield ribbon (and no other rating has a ribbon). I got nothing but love & respect for Scott Crossfield & really enjoyed meeting & listening to him. I think we can do something better with his name & that ribbon. I say Wg AEO of the year, bronze star for region, silver for national (additional Wg/reg awards indicated by bronze/silver traingles).

How about phasing out the RED SERVICE ribbon and replacing it with a device on the MEMBERSHIP ribbon?

I like this. Makes a meaningless ribbon more meaningful. Just need to clarify rules for cadet wear, or just cut that aspect since they get a gillion ribbons anyway. I also liek the idea of it being active service, which isn't exactly measurable right now, but you know the AF till recently had a good conduct medal w/ some requirementes you might look to. We're talking about each five years satisfactory service gets you a device now, the ribbon you already got on Lvl1. I don't know, yall can play with it a bit. Good idea Joe!

[MIKE]

They do need to [censored] the existing MR BDU patch and replace it with an embroidered version of the 'pocket rocket'.

Emphasis added.

Interesting word choice. 

Maybe we should get with the times and come out with our own Space Wings to replace the pocket rocket?   

[Hawk200]

1. Why do seniors even need a pocket rocket? Seniors already have specialty track badges that cadets can't wear. What's the point of adopting one of their badges for seniors?

2. Combined recruiting ribbons? Like the idea. Set it at five. Clasps for each additional seven (May seem an off the wall number, but second award should take more work. They know what they need after the first one.)

3. ES ribbon?
    a. Then people come to SAR-EX's to get a ribbon, rather than to actually maintain skills.
    b. Then there are some people that will get a patch, a badge (possibly two), and a ribbon for maintaining an ES specialty.
        1.  As far as that goes, it's inequitable.
        2.  Two, the military has a stipulation for decorations that you can not recieve more than one award for a single action. We should follow suit. It should make sense to people as to why.

[SarDragon]

How about phasing out the RED SERVICE ribbon and replacing it with a device on the MEMBERSHIP ribbon?

Apples and oranges. One denotes length of membership; the other denotes completion of an aspect of PD.

Besides, I like my red service ribbon with the 25 on it.

[sandman]

Maybe we should get with the times and come out with our own Space Wings to replace the pocket rocket?   

Cool, "Space Wings", I like it

If cadets earn it, can we actually call them...well, you know

[arajca]

1. Why do seniors even need a pocket rocket? Seniors already have specialty track badges that cadets can't wear. What's the point of adopting one of their badges for seniors?

Not what I'm proposing. I'm proposing putting a star on the Yeager ribbon, not SM's wearing the Model Rocketry badge.

2. Combined recruiting ribbons? Like the idea. Set it at five. Clasps for each additional seven (May seem an off the wall number, but second award should take more work. They know what they need after the first one.)

Not so off the wall. The senior recruiting ribbon requires seven for the first award.

3. ES ribbon?
    a. Then people come to SAR-EX's to get a ribbon, rather than to actually maintain skills.
    b. Then there are some people that will get a patch, a badge (possibly two), and a ribbon for maintaining an ES specialty.
        1.  As far as that goes, it's inequitable.
        2.  Two, the military has a stipulation for decorations that you can not recieve more than one award for a single action. We should follow suit. It should make sense to people as to why.

a. If it motivates them to do training, what's the issue? The end result is the same - trained personnel. What about personnel who come to missions to get a ribbon? The SAR ribbon is just that. Yes, there are people who do that. For many of CAP's awards, there are people who will meet the requirements just so they can get the award. The higher purpose that most of us believe in doesn't apply to them.
b. You get badge(s) and the patch for qualifying for an ES rating. Once qualified, you never lose them - even if you are no longer currently qualified. For maintaining currency, you get nothing. Zip. Ziltch. Nada.
b.1. How? The requirement for the ribbon is the same for everyone - senior, cadet, base staff, GT, AC, etc.
b.2. How does this apply? Currently, a member getting their first ES rating gets a patch - this applies to all members. GTM, MO, MP get a badge and the same patch. Right there you've violated the 2-for-1 principle. My idea has the member earning the ribbon after participating in two training exerises AFTER receiving their first rating. So they've already received the patch and badge (if appropriate). Also, it doesn't matter how many days or sorties you participate in on an exercise, each exercise counts as one toward the ribbon - whether you're there for one day, two days, one sortie, five sorties, etc. For continued exercise participation, there currently is no form of acknowldgement or recognition.

[DNall]

Spacewings are a whole dif thing. I don't think we're going there. I'm tellin ya though, it'd be really good to combine badges & program specs w/ AFJROTC on this one. Absolutely no badge for adults, sticking to a device on Yeager, and I still say that should be for rocketry instructor (some training plus do the program a couple times).

On this recruiter ribbon thing. I really do think it's good to have the initial award for cadets set at 2. Like I said, that's about motivating them right out the gate. I tell ya what... make it 2 for cadets, 5 for adults on the initial, then both req 5 for additional clasps. For sure get that down to one ribbon though. Maybe use the other one in place of the HLS ribbon they're trying to get going. 

A longevity ribbon is fine, I got no problems with that. The membership ribbon is really the waste of space. You want to keep the red service (please rename it, Longevity ribbon?) & cut membership (please rename that too, CAP training ribbon?) then I'm good with that too.

I also vote NO on an ES ribbon. We got service ribbons (SaR, DR, CN, and now HLS coming, maybe border patrol too if that mission ever materializes). That's supposed to cover this aspect.

[Hawk200]

a. If it motivates them to do training, what's the issue? The end result is the same - trained personnel. What about personnel who come to missions to get a ribbon? The SAR ribbon is just that. Yes, there are people who do that. For many of CAP's awards, there are people who will meet the requirements just so they can get the award. The higher purpose that most of us believe in doesn't apply to them.

So we should pander to the lowest common denominator? That's lowering your standards. There really isn't anything else to call it. You would throw out a carrot to people to simply maintain the qualifications that they volunteered to do.  Are you changing your priorities from retaining people that want to do the job, to try to retain people by bribing them?

b. You get badge(s) and the patch for qualifying for an ES rating. Once qualified, you never lose them - even if you are no longer currently qualified. For maintaining currency, you get nothing. Zip. Ziltch. Nada.

Good point as far as badges go. Maybe we should reconsider that.  As far as the patch goes, 35-6 says "Current and qualified in accordance with CAPR 60-3, CAP Emergency Services Training and Operational Missions as a general emergency services member with one additional specialty qualification". So it's possible to lose it.

My idea has the member earning the ribbon after participating in two training exerises AFTER receiving their first rating....Also, it doesn't matter how many days or sorties you participate in on an exercise, each exercise counts as one toward the ribbon - whether you're there for one day, two days, one sortie, five sorties, etc. For continued exercise participation, there currently is no form of acknowldgement or recognition.

OK, I put aside the double award principle, and address the training excercise criteria. I pretty much have to ask: How do you think this will help? What purpose does it really serve? Recognition for practice?

Maybe I spent to much time in the military, but people rarely got decorations for participating in excercises, voluntarily or not. They got it for going above and beyond. They didn't get it for maintaining their skills.

Besides, how do propose smoothing down the ruffled feathers for the people that got Find ribbons, Saves, and Disaster Relief ribbons? They wouldn't be very happy about a SAR-EX ribbon. If you're going to stroke egos for SAR-EX participation, you have to account for the people that actually earned something on a real mission. Turns into a vicious cycle.

And just out of curiousity, if this ribbon was approved, would you receive it immediately, or would it take two of those excercises you were talking about?

[freeflight]

The Consumer Product Safety Commission requires that "G" power level model rocket motors of any kind, be sold only to persons age 18 or older, but there are no regulations prohibiting a younger person from assembling and flying a "G" motor. Rocket motors with more than 62.5 grams of propellant (a few large G motors and all motors H and above) are "High Power Rocket Motors" which cannot be purchased or flown by persons under age 18, and which also require a Low Explosive Users Permit from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. The minimum age for this permit is 21 years old. Refer to BATFE Explosives Law and Regulation, Sections 843 (b)(1) and 842 (d)(1). 

This would effectively put and end to the idea of high power rocketry for cadets seeing as most of them quit after they turn 18. I would suggest looking at the Arizona Wing's supplement to CAPR 50-20. It covers Cadets and Officers.

Personally I would love to get my Level One but I don't want the BATFE to be able to enter my house without a warrant which getting the permit will allow them to do.

As for the other ideas I don't have an opinion.

[CAPLAW]

While Vanguard is making the senior pocket rocket lets design and approve a Police badge for seniors that are LEO.

[Hawk200]

While Vanguard is making the senior pocket rocket lets design and approve a Police badge for seniors that are LEO.

Dude, that wasn't right.....


Funny, but not right...

[arajca]

a. If it motivates them to do training, what's the issue? The end result is the same - trained personnel. What about personnel who come to missions to get a ribbon? The SAR ribbon is just that. Yes, there are people who do that. For many of CAP's awards, there are people who will meet the requirements just so they can get the award. The higher purpose that most of us believe in doesn't apply to them.

So we should pander to the lowest common denominator? That's lowering your standards. There really isn't anything else to call it. You would throw out a carrot to people to simply maintain the qualifications that they volunteered to do.  Are you changing your priorities from retaining people that want to do the job, to try to retain people by bribing them

My idea has the member earning the ribbon after participating in two training exerises AFTER receiving their first rating....Also, it doesn't matter how many days or sorties you participate in on an exercise, each exercise counts as one toward the ribbon - whether you're there for one day, two days, one sortie, five sorties, etc. For continued exercise participation, there currently is no form of acknowldgement or recognition.

OK, I put aside the double award principle, and address the training excercise criteria. I pretty much have to ask: How do you think this will help? What purpose does it really serve? Recognition for practice?

Maybe I spent to much time in the military, but people rarely got decorations for participating in excercises, voluntarily or not. They got it for going above and beyond. They didn't get it for maintaining their skills. ?

Believe it or not, the recognition/reward practices from the fifties/sixties/seventies aren't applicable to most people today. A current generational trend is to expect recognition for doing what is expected. Many companies are struggling with this issue. The upper management expects that a lunch with the boss or a photo with the CEO provide sufficient incentive, however, for Gen X and Gen Y, those don't cut it.

When I was AD, I saw a number of folks getting awards and commendations for doing their job. It's not uncommon.

If recognition is bribery, why to we have the DR, SAREX, encampment, NCSA, Command Service, Red Service, etc ribbons? Do they not recognize members for doing what CAP wants?

How many folks actually get to use the skills they practice and maintain outside of training? We've noticed a downward trend in the number of real mission CAP gets called out on overall. That translates to less opportunities to use the skills we maintain. I have seen members stop maintaining those skills because there isn't a need for them because CAP doesn't get called out. These are usually member who have been in three or four years and have honed their skills for no appearent purpose. If giving them a ribbon means they continue to maintain the skills, is that not worth it?

Besides, how do propose smoothing down the ruffled feathers for the people that got Find ribbons, Saves, and Disaster Relief ribbons? They wouldn't be very happy about a SAR-EX ribbon. If you're going to stroke egos for SAR-EX participation, you have to account for the people that actually earned something on a real mission. Turns into a vicious cycle.

I don't see that as an issue. The ES training ribbon does not replace the Find, Save, DR, etc. The only reference to those ribbons is that the ES training ribbon follows them, not replaces them.

And just out of curiousity, if this ribbon was approved, would you receive it immediately, or would it take two of those excercises you were talking about?

That would depend on how the reg is written, but I would expect for everyone to start with a zero count and work up from there.

[arajca]

4) Finally, I don't see why we have an AE badge w/ star for master rate AND a crossfield ribbon (and no other rating has a ribbon). I got nothing but love & respect for Scott Crossfield & really enjoyed meeting & listening to him. I think we can do something better with his name & that ribbon. I say Wg AEO of the year, bronze star for region, silver for national (additional Wg/reg awards indicated by bronze/silver traingles).

I think the Crossfield is a hold over from before we had the AE badge.

[DNall]

Nope.

[Hawk200]

And just out of curiousity, if this ribbon was approved, would you receive it immediately, or would it take two of those excercises you were talking about?

That would depend on how the reg is written, but I would expect for everyone to start with a zero count and work up from there.

I like that answer. A few people want awards that they would get instantly. Your concept is more fair and equitable to everyone.

I think the Crossfield is a hold over from before we had the AE badge.

No, I do specifically remember the Crossfield ribbon coming later. There was an AE badge just being implemented when I first came in, but the ribbon didn't come until a few years later.

[arajca]

I think the Crossfield is a hold over from before we had the AE badge.

No, I do specifically remember the Crossfield ribbon coming later. There was an AE badge just being implemented when I first came in, but the ribbon didn't come until a few years later.

OK. I've been wrong before, I'll be wrong again.

[arajca]

And just out of curiousity, if this ribbon was approved, would you receive it immediately, or would it take two of those excercises you were talking about?

That would depend on how the reg is written, but I would expect for everyone to start with a zero count and work up from there.

I like that answer. A few people want awards that they would get instantly. Your concept is more fair and equitable to everyone.

And it's easier to track. Although for those who already have an ES qual or ten, they would not have to get another ES qual to start counting.