PA Wing grounds pilots??

[RADIOMAN015]

PA wing is a very large wing, one would think that they would have worked on a method to technically link the various groups to broadcast the briefing so as to reduce travel time & expense for the members.   Perhaps also they could record the briefing and those that couldn't attend at the local group, could review & certify via email that they had done this.

RM

[BuckeyeDEJ]

The safety briefing is a Band-Aid solution, at best, that doesn't deal with the real problem, which is that some of us haven't internalized the core values.

If we really live the core values as CAP members, this BS won't happen. We'll be honest with each other. We won't cut corners or cover up our mistakes and misjudgments -- integrity will be more than a buzz word. Excellence in all we do will be more than a saying; it'll be a way of life.

Sounds to me like Col. Lee and the Pennsylvania Wing leadership needs to hit on integrity, service above self and excellence in all we do. If people hold themselves and each other to the core values, this garbage doesn't happen and the need for this sort of rigamarole disappears.

To be fair, this isn't just a Pennsylvania Wing issue. This is an issue in everyone's units, in everyone's wings, in everyone's regions and special activities. If our commanders would gut up and be unafraid of angering people who genuinely suck, and assert the core values as the bedrock of CAP service, we would have the respect for each other and the level of professionalism to which we aspire. If more of our members would stand up and hold each other accountable, with command support, maybe we could attack this problem from two sides.

And maybe broken planes would be reported, and fixed in a timely way, and ready for missions on no notice. Maybe our squadrons would be more efficient, and maybe our dealings with each other wouldn't sometimes have contempt. Maybe cadets would hold more senior members in higher esteem (they can smell a bad senior member a mile away). Maybe Ma Blue would also stop turning her nose up at us.

Whaddya say?

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Incidentally, for whatever reason, CAP tacks on a needless fourth core value -- "respect." I say it's superfluous because respect is wholly covered by the three Air Force core values.

I dare speculate that whomever thought adding "respect" to a perfectly good set of core values didn't understand the core values to begin with, or decided to leave his or her own mark on the core values. ("Hey, I added 'respect.' I'm so noble." "No, you're not. You have comprehension issues.")

OK, this post is a jab, I admit. But maybe I can take this discussion down a more constructive avenue -- if you don't live the core values, you ask for this sort of response.

We throw the core values out there, but we don't really teach them. They're not central to our doctrine. They're buzzwords unless they're applied and internalized, starting with new member training and working its way through the ranks.

[JC004]

PA wing is a very large wing, one would think that they would have worked on a method to technically link the various groups to broadcast the briefing so as to reduce travel time & expense for the members.   Perhaps also they could record the briefing and those that couldn't attend at the local group, could review & certify via email that they had done this.

RM

haha.  technology is banned.  The...uh...font on some wing mail over the years has matched the font used for decades.  That is, before there were screens attached... 

I offered many technology-based solutions - document management, project management systems, mapping solutions, databases, etc.  Interest?  Lacking. 

[Thrashed]

CAP REGULATION 60-1  paragraph 2-7. Grounding and Mishaps.

c.  Commanders or IC/CMDs exercising this authority shall notify the affected aircrew member in writing within 7 days of the date grounded, including the reason(s) this action was taken. The written notification must include a statement telling the aircrew member that he/she has the right to seek reconsideration of this action under the provisions of paragraph 2-7f of CAPR 60-1. A copy of this notification will be filed with the region commander and all intermediate commanders within 14 days of the grounding.

e.  Once grounded, only a wing or higher commander in the individual's chain of command may reinstate a member to flight status. Commanders may set any condition for reinstatement, including completion of a new CAPF 5, CAP Pilot Flight Evaluation.

f.  A member may submit a written appeal to his/her region commander if he/she remains grounded after 90 days. Such an appeal may only be filed one time and must be filed within one year of the initial grounding. Upon receipt of the appeal, the region commander will appoint a review board of at least three CAP check pilots to review the appeal. The review board will examine the facts of the case and make a recommendation to the region commander. The region commander will issue a final decision within 60 days of receipt of the appeal. All such decisions are final and not subject to review by filing a complaint under CAPR 123-2.

I wonder if any of this has happened?

Not for me. maybe I'm not "grounded".

[Thrashed]

Just got an email from the wing commander; I'm grounded.

[JC004]

Just got an email from the wing commander; I'm grounded.

Ask for a certificate too.  Just make sure it doesn't have the Triangle Thingy on it.  Actually...maybe you could contest its validity if it HAD the Triangle Thingy since it's not an official symbol of the corporation.  Loopholes!   

[a2capt]

Just got an email from the wing commander; I'm grounded.

You just got one, coincidentally? Or was it sent to all that did not attend?

[JeffDG]

Just got an email from the wing commander; I'm grounded.

Ask for a certificate too.  Just make sure it doesn't have the Triangle Thingy on it.  Actually...maybe you could contest its validity if it HAD the Triangle Thingy since it's not an official symbol of the corporation.  Loopholes!   

The reg just says notified in writing, which e-mail constitutes.  No need for a "certificate".

And, can you quote any regulation that prohibits the use of non-official symbols?

[Eclipse]

There's a difference between "grounded" and "stood down" - grounding is a very specific process and can only be done for very specific reasons - as an example we've had an issue with pilots in 000 - common sense would say you don't fly if you have no command oversight, the regs say differently.

From a practical standpoint DNIF is DNIF, but when a pilot is "grounded" there are very specific steps that need to be accomplished to get his status back, vs. a wing-level stand-down which isn't going to meet the same criteria and happened to be logistically inconvenient for some members.

It's unfortunate it worked out that way, but it is what it is.  Were it me I would be working to try and bring whatever presentation I missed down to my area for the people who couldn't get to it  so I can get my flying status back.  Taking the tack that "I am grounded" as if this was somehow personal may make you feel better but it won't get you back in the air.

[Al Sayre]

CAPR 900-2 Sect A Paragraph 1:

1.  Policy.

The use Civil Air Patrol (CAP) name, seal and the Civil Air Patrol emblem is not permitted except as authorized herein.

And

3. Authorized Use:
a.  In accordance with Federal Statute 36 U.S.C. Section 40306, Civil Air Patrol shall have the sole and exclusive right to the name "Civil Air Patrol."
b.  The Civil Air Patrol name, seal and/or emblem will not be used for personal gain. Additionally, the name, seal and/or emblem will not be used for any commercial purpose, except under licensing agreement as approved by the Executive Director after review by General Counsel. The name may generally be used on:
1)  Corporate vehicles, as prescribed in CAPR 77-1, Operation and Maintenance of Civil Air Patrol Vehicles.
2)  CAP-owned aircraft and member-owned aircraft used for CAP business upon approval of the wing or region commander as appropriate. Such approval will be granted only where its use would reflect favorably upon CAP.
3)  All official CAP publications (through squadron level).
4)  All official CAP web pages (through squadron level).
5)  Official invitations, greetings, and programs at national, regional, and wing levels.
6)  Stationery of any CAP unit or authorized committee.
7)  Membership cards issued by National Headquarters.
8 )  Signs identifying CAP units at all levels. Ensure that signs are attractively painted and well maintained.
9)  Posters and other informational or recruiting materials issued by National Headquarters.
10)  Civil Air Patrol business cards, using the member's official CAP duty title.

Approval from National Headquarters, Public Awareness & Membership Development (NHQ CAP/PM), must be obtained to use the name for any purpose other than those listed above and to use the name in advertisements.

Don't see anything about triangle thingies...

[JeffDG]

CAPR 900-2 Sect A Paragraph 1:

1.  Policy.

The use Civil Air Patrol (CAP) name, seal and the Civil Air Patrol emblem is not permitted except as authorized herein.

And

3. Authorized Use:
a.  In accordance with Federal Statute 36 U.S.C. Section 40306, Civil Air Patrol shall have the sole and exclusive right to the name "Civil Air Patrol."
b.  The Civil Air Patrol name, seal and/or emblem will not be used for personal gain. Additionally, the name, seal and/or emblem will not be used for any commercial purpose, except under licensing agreement as approved by the Executive Director after review by General Counsel. The name may generally be used on:
1)  Corporate vehicles, as prescribed in CAPR 77-1, Operation and Maintenance of Civil Air Patrol Vehicles.
2)  CAP-owned aircraft and member-owned aircraft used for CAP business upon approval of the wing or region commander as appropriate. Such approval will be granted only where its use would reflect favorably upon CAP.
3)  All official CAP publications (through squadron level).
4)  All official CAP web pages (through squadron level).
5)  Official invitations, greetings, and programs at national, regional, and wing levels.
6)  Stationery of any CAP unit or authorized committee.
7)  Membership cards issued by National Headquarters.
8 )  Signs identifying CAP units at all levels. Ensure that signs are attractively painted and well maintained.
9)  Posters and other informational or recruiting materials issued by National Headquarters.
10)  Civil Air Patrol business cards, using the member's official CAP duty title.

Approval from National Headquarters, Public Awareness & Membership Development (NHQ CAP/PM), must be obtained to use the name for any purpose other than those listed above and to use the name in advertisements.

Don't see anything about triangle thingies...

OK, but the triangle thingy is not a logo, as you've made clear.  The "Name" can be used, as you've pointed out "6)  Stationary of any CAP unit or authorized committee".

So, with that, the logo is not an issue.  As the triangle thingy is not a CAP logo, it's not covered by 1).  The name is covered by (3)(b)(6) as authorized in the case at hand.

[JC004]

Just got an email from the wing commander; I'm grounded.

Ask for a certificate too.  Just make sure it doesn't have the Triangle Thingy on it.  Actually...maybe you could contest its validity if it HAD the Triangle Thingy since it's not an official symbol of the corporation.  Loopholes!   

The reg just says notified in writing, which e-mail constitutes.  No need for a "certificate".

And, can you quote any regulation that prohibits the use of non-official symbols?

seriously?

[JeffDG]

seriously?

Yep...not saying it's smart to dilute your brand, but nobody has yet shown me a prohibition.

[SJFedor]

So here's what I'm curious about....

Typically, aircraft allocation is done by number of pilots/mission pilots for each wing. Only have 6 MP's? probably not gonna have many assets.

Since I'm betting PAWG just effectively grounded a lot of their pilots (no statistics, but I'm betting easily 50%), are they gonna start losing planes (again)?

[Johnny Yuma]

Is it me or has PAWG had some major safety issues in the past that got them grounded and a Wing King fired a couple years ago?

[JC004]

seriously?

Yep...not saying it's smart to dilute your brand, but nobody has yet shown me a prohibition.

I was...kidding about a certificate.  I thought a Grounded Certificate might look nice.  You can frame it and such.

900-2 makes itself the authority on the use of the name and the currently authorized logos.  The Triangle Thingy is using the name of the corporation.  900-2 lays out specifically what is used in most cases.  It is not as comprehensive as a style guide, but it is the current authority.  The spirit of the regulation would not seem to imply that "contained herein is the guidance for these logos, but make whatever logos you want and just use them where ever."  The regulation exists to provide guidance on the image of the corporation in the use of its name and logos.  Again, it's limited, but it is the authority. 

The uniform manual doesn't exist to say "Here is the guidance for these uniforms.  If you want to make other uniforms, whatever."  There are deviations like the glider uniform, but that is in regulation elsewhere.

[Patterson]

^ Don't argue with the guy......just make sure he is in the same hole you stick all the "triangle-things". 

[JeffDG]

seriously?

Yep...not saying it's smart to dilute your brand, but nobody has yet shown me a prohibition.

I was...kidding about a certificate.  I thought a Grounded Certificate might look nice.  You can frame it and such.

900-2 makes itself the authority on the use of the name and the currently authorized logos.  The Triangle Thingy is using the name of the corporation.  900-2 lays out specifically what is used in most cases.  It is not as comprehensive as a style guide, but it is the current authority.  The spirit of the regulation would not seem to imply that "contained herein is the guidance for these logos, but make whatever logos you want and just use them where ever."  The regulation exists to provide guidance on the image of the corporation in the use of its name and logos.  Again, it's limited, but it is the authority. 

The uniform manual doesn't exist to say "Here is the guidance for these uniforms.  If you want to make other uniforms, whatever."  There are deviations like the glider uniform, but that is in regulation elsewhere.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but the uniform manual is distinguishable.  There are regs that say "Thou shalt wear an official uniform."  That means that the uniforms in the uniform manual are, de facto, exhaustive when operating in a situation where a uniform is mandatory.

900-2 specifically authorizes the use of the name "Civil Air Patrol" on, among other things, Stationary.  It does not say that the name must be incorporated in an official logo.  It also does not say "Thou shalt use an official logo on CAP correspondence or other materials". 

Again, I agree entirely with you with respect to brand dilution, but the regs do not prohibit the TT

[FW]

Is it me or has PAWG had some major safety issues in the past that got them grounded and a Wing King fired a couple years ago?

The wing never had "major safety issues".  However, they did have some major reporting issues to deal with. 
Their wing "king" was fired for logistics issues.  You can read the MARB report in "eservices".

So here's what I'm curious about....

Typically, aircraft allocation is done by number of pilots/mission pilots for each wing. Only have 6 MP's? probably not gonna have many assets.

Since I'm betting PAWG just effectively grounded a lot of their pilots (no statistics, but I'm betting easily 50%), are they gonna start losing planes (again)?

Over 100 pilots showed for the meeting.  I'm sure there will be a way for the rest to get the "message".  I know it will be presented at the wing conf. next month.  Since the wing is flying about 200hrs/aircraft, I don't think they will lose any however...