CUL questions

[CommGeek]

Heli you are absolutely right.

Our wing did a high profile exercise not too long ago.  The plan was to use IMU.  No problem...but IMU didn't work.  Instead of switching to paperwork the IC tried to troubleshoot IMU for SIX HOURS!  Not acceptable!  Technology is great, but when it fails we need to know how to do it the old way.

Don't get me started on CAP getting satellite internet....Its sad when your at a HUGE event and a local church group has satellite internet, and we dont!

Good point on the IAP and making all the Docs available.  CAP has never done this!  We need to start.

Nothing like the old wildfire days when you could get all the info you needed by looking at the board at staging....

Every IC is supposed to have a 'Mission Kit' ... Anyone on a mission for that matter.  Never leave home without it!

[lordmonar]

That we may not use it at some future event is NOT an excuse to not use it all the rest of the time.

Yes IMU is a pain.

Yes it is glitchy.

Yes it needs a robust server and large comm pipe.

But instead of just handing out paper and ignoring the IMU we need to work on getting up and running.

As for first responders going out in the field with lap tops....you are right they seldom do.

But CAP is not a "first responder" in the sense that you put it.

We will be running 90% of our operations right out of our own homes.  90% of the training will be done in our own home bases.

For the few times we have to operate outside of the comm infrastructure we can use the IMU in stand alone mode or paper and input it later.

The IMU is about command and control...and giving the IC the tools to more effectively manage the incident.

[Eclipse]

That we may not use it at some future event is NOT an excuse to not use it all the rest of the
As for first responders going out in the field with lap tops....you are right they seldom do.

Every firetruck and police car I have seen for 5 years has a notebook with some sort of packet or broadband capability.

I never leave the house without a notebook and a smartphone with both 3G and 4G capabilities - satellite is too slow and flaky to
be viable for the average user, and is not needed in most places we play - at the "big ones" FEMA or similar rolls in with a Sat truck
and Cat 5 and says "plug in here".

For the smaller ones, the ICP should be somewhere with robust infrastructure, in fact ICS dictates that, and then you can always
string out staging areas and similar to communicate via phone and radio.

The biggest failure in your scenario is the IC:

A) Being involved in setting up infrastructure at all.

2) Not insuring that the system was up and running the night/week/month beforehand.

C) Being involved in setting up infrastructure at all.

4) Not dropping to paper or "other" when the IMU didn't work.

E) Being involved in setting up infrastructure at all.

As a technology person who works primarily in the field and has to function within all the nonsense that CAP members do with their
machines, I would not ever trust a mission-critical asset to rely on members bringing their own machines and "hooking up" - you'll spend the first 4 hours uninstalling Facebook, Twitter, 15 toolbars, 12 pieces of malware, and applying the patches no one at the home unit could be bothered to install until today.

The primary systems should be dedicated to the task, and with all the machines being DRMO'ed because they are "old" - there is plenty of capable hardware around to make sure you have a group of 3 or 4 primary machines for the ICP.

[heliodoc]

You MIGHT have a point, Pat

BUT what happens when one day CAP is out in the boonies and not operatin' from home or home stattions...

Never thought or really said CAP was a first responder in the sense of anyone operation.

BUT one day CAP MAY be in a remote base and may have to plan accordingly.......

Yep technology is great...but some of the first response organizations and VFD's that I sometimes work with  do not have all the fancy toys and hardware that CAP or some of its more technologically astute members seem to think is the cure all answer all.

Like I was told one day of many days of hanging with many EM's...technology is great...but one day when the balloon goes up and some of the power grid infrastructure goes down and money isn't coming in from the Gov like it used for every little thing Homeland Security...we may have to resort many of our simpler days.  Not every firetruck or police car in many communities have a notebook and I have witnessed that..

Borrowing someones quote here ..."local perception is not always national reality."  So just because one community and organization MAY have the toys and tech there are many that do not.

I have seen ICP with less than robust infrastructure(s) and they STILL seem to get the job(s) done via phone and radio

[Eclipse]

BUT what happens when one day CAP is out in the boonies and not operatin' from home or home stattions...

There is no reason the ICP should ever be in an area without robust infrastructure.  It doesn't need to even be in the same county or state
as the actual operations.

The constant nonsense about having to scale every operation with stone tablets and papyrus because we might be somewhere without a cell signal has stifled innovation in CAP since before I was born.  CAP will likely not work in situations much worse than Katrina, and by the time we were involved, cell and data coverage was fully functional all the way to the Gulf Coast - that's the advantage of being a secondary / tertiary responder.

Everyone in a command or leadership role should have a full set of forms and some manual status boards as backup, but no one works in
stone-aged conditions anymore.

No one.

[heliodoc]

No one?

Cite please..

No one said papyrus and stone tablet.  Then you have not been in many operations non fire related West of the Mississippi or the Intermountain West

You'd have a better appreciation for what some folks have to deal with .....funding, LGA, etc.

But I forgot....Eclipse  ...once again ...you know alll!! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[lordmonar]

BUT one day CAP MAY be in a remote base and may have to plan accordingly.......

Yep...you called it "plan accordingly".  We have CAP laptops....they have IMU loaded and are able to run in stand alone mode.

If you are in the boonies it is most likely going to be a small operation....we can still use IMU.....or if push come to shove...use paper.

Yep technology is great...but some of the first response organizations and VFD's that I sometimes work with  do not have all the fancy toys and hardware that CAP or some of its more technologically astute members seem to think is the cure all answer all.

Like I was told one day of many days of hanging with many EM's...technology is great...but one day when the balloon goes up and some of the power grid infrastructure goes down and money isn't coming in from the Gov like it used for every little thing Homeland Security...we may have to resort many of our simpler days.  Not every firetruck or police car in many communities have a notebook and I have witnessed that..

Borrowing someones quote here ..."local perception is not always national reality."  So just because one community and organization MAY have the toys and tech there are many that do not.

I have seen ICP with less than robust infrastructure(s) and they STILL seem to get the job(s) done via phone and radio

Just because the ancients built the pyramids with out cranes, block and tackle or power tools does not mean we have to do the same.

[heliodoc]

Sensitivities sure run HIGH in the CAP IMU arena, don't they? 

[Eclipse]

No one?

Cite please..

Cite a negative?  Not possible.

Show me a professionalized service that does - not even your beloved fire service operates that way.

[heliodoc]

My "beloved" fire service STILL uses paper at the dispatch centers as well as laptops, notebooks , whatever...

They are of the belief of manual status boards, T cards, and ICS forms to back up the computer, God forbid should theyt EVER have a glitch or FAIL

Sorry Eclipse, all knowing, I got CAP crap to do tonite......lesson plans for safety briefings  ...  rough draft on paper  final on the laptop

Hope the power doesn't go out!!

[Eclipse]

My "beloved" fire service STILL uses paper at the dispatch centers as well as laptops, notebooks , whatever...

Yeah, so do we...

Your beloved fire service also brings in infrastructure for a lot of fires that makes DS1 look like a border skirmish.

[wuzafuzz]

Good point on the IAP and making all the Docs available.  CAP has never done this!  We need to start.

Nothing like the old wildfire days when you could get all the info you needed by looking at the board at staging....

I've seen this done in CAP, and I've done it myself.  Is it done all the time?  Definitely not.

[wuzafuzz]

My "beloved" fire service STILL uses paper at the dispatch centers as well as laptops, notebooks , whatever...

They are of the belief of manual status boards, T cards, and ICS forms to back up the computer, God forbid should theyt EVER have a glitch or FAIL

Sorry Eclipse, all knowing, I got CAP crap to do tonite......lesson plans for safety briefings  ...  rough draft on paper  final on the laptop

Hope the power doesn't go out!!

I'd wager a fair number of volunteer SAR teams use a lot of paper.  They are a closer comparison to CAP than full time paid public safety folks.  How about CG Aux?  Red Cross?  Salvation Army?  I'll bet they use a lot of paper too. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for technology.  However, the idea of setting up an ad hoc network using a bunch of member-owned hardware and a borrowed WiFi connection from a hangar 300 feet away, ON TOP of already carting in my commo gear simply isn't at the top of my list as a CUL.  Perhaps some of you have better facilities and equipment, but that's how I've had to operate more often than not.  And that's for SAREX's planned far in advance; a large mission stood up on little notice will probably be even shakier.

[lordmonar]

I guess we are just lucky.

CAP sent every squadron a lap top computer.

We worked with the County and go a ton of used computers (enough to give each squadron 6-8).

We equiped our mission base with about 8-9 computers.  We just bought internet access.  The wing maintains the server.

No need to bring your own computers if you just look at what resources are available.

IMU gives you much better flexibilty.  It allows one central location the ability to run wing wide operations.  It allows for immediate updates of status both of current sorties, and future taskings.

It maintains the logs, personnel and equpment availablity.

Sure it can crash...sure it can be bogged down....sure it requires a lot of effort to set up and train your people.

But it is superior for command and control for large operations then paper.

[Eclipse]

I'd wager a fair number of volunteer SAR teams use a lot of paper.  They are a closer comparison to CAP than full time paid public safety folks.  How about CG Aux?  Red Cross?  Salvation Army?  I'll bet they use a lot of paper too. 

From my personal, hand-on, know-it-all experience with the ARC, I can tell you they bring in plenty of infrastructure, and because they
are handling money, including dispersing it, lodging for displaced persons, and providing meals for sometimes thousands at a time, they are using as much technology as anybody.

We all use too much paper, but these professional agencies bring logistics teams with them that light everything up for the field assets and local volunteers.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for technology.  However, the idea of setting up an ad hoc network using a bunch of member-owned hardware and a borrowed WiFi connection from a hangar 300 feet away, ON TOP of already carting in my commo gear simply isn't at the top of my list as a CUL. 

Its also not your job - logistics / facilities or IT would be the people responsible for that, not comms.

As Ned (and I have said), there's been several thousand laptops issues to unit CC's in the last 5 years, and even the first-wave ones
are still plenty viable.  Most of the professionals I work with in CAP have handheld devices that can tether a notebook to the internet, and
in turn make a notebook an access point, not to mention awesome toys like Clearspot and MyFi's.

No excuse for a stone-age mentality beyond the fall-back.

[Robborsari]

 I have never had a network problem using routers from my junk bag and the cellphone modem.  Any $40 wireless router should work fine.

One thing we consider very important with IMU is backup options in case the network is lost.  To that end we keep a complete copy of the database on every machine that is participating in the mission.  Any system can become a server for the local network or run as a standalone system.  We distribute a free web server to allow any laptop to be configured as a server.

The ideal setup is:

Wing level internet server
local network clients.

This allows all the clients to communicate with the internet server over http protocal.  Most networks allow traffic on this port even if they have others blocked.  This fixed a lot of the connection issues we had in the past.  The http connection is also stateless.  No more having to restart if the server loses a message.  The database is on the local clients and on the server.  If the WAN connection is lost the local machines can be reconfigured to use one of them as a local server. 

If the local lan is lost then one machine can be used to run the mission until it is restored.  Once it is restored the one machines database can be uploaded to the server by the IC and full network operation can resume.

Even if all local power is lost the laptops should work for at least an hour.  This would allow a transition to paper if there was no way to restore local power.

IMU is integrated with WMIRS in several ways.  We can upload air and ground sorties on the fly and the flight release module jumps directly to the WMIRS e-release page for the flight you are releasing.  The comm module will automatically update wmirs with the ATD and ATA times when they are entered.  This vastly simplifies the job of the AOBD / OSC / IC by allowing them to enter the data once and keep WMIRS, and the status board up to date.  The web server is also able to serve the status board to any computer or phone with a browser.  This makes it easier for people who are not at the mission base and don't have IMU on their computer to keep an eye on the status board.

There is a lot of training that needs to be done for IMU to be used effectively but once you start using all the features it makes managing the mission and completing the required paperwork very easy.  (in my biased opinion   It also makes it easier to turn in all the required paperwork.  In my wing we have an officer who reviews all the mission packets before they get handed to our State Director.  He just pulls them off the main WMU server at National.  I can often have the paperwork ready to turn in the night the mission finishes and everyone uploads their last fuel receipts.

[CommGeek]

Rob,

We did several tests with LAN mode on IMU.  It works ok untill you hit around 8 pc's  then your linksys WLAN router starts to drop packets, and the RF gets too much interference.   Go wired and it solves the RF issues, but still drops packets at around 10 PC's.

Cisco 2600 Router we tested to 28 pc's  (Then we ran out of PC's)  but we had 0% packet loss.

In a pinch the linksys (or other cheap router ) will work.  For a large network you need a more robust router.

We have a cache of 10 laptops on a local domain and server we deploy as a  kit to support out IMT.



Paper backup is a MUST.... Im a firm believer that if you dont know how to use paper and you dont know what IMU does in the background, you wont have a clue what to do when IMU dosent work.

[arajca]

Unfortunately for many here, we do not yet have dedicated facilities that we can have set up all the time.  Those of you who do, need to keep that in mind. That is the reason COWG is establishing portable incident communications systems so we CAN set up where/when needed. Internet is a luxury we don't always have and can't always plan for.

Also, WMU is not maintained by National nor is it on a server maintained or operated by National.

Yes, there is a WHOLE lot of training needed, but we have problems with everyone wanting to go into the field and no one wanting to develop ANY skills that might lead to them being kept at base.

[CommGeek]

arajca,

your on the right track! 

[Eclipse]

Unfortunately for many here, we do not yet have dedicated facilities that we can have set up all the time.

Few of us do - everything I have ever done has been on a remote basis.

Also, WMU is not maintained by National nor is it on a server maintained or operated by National.

Correct, and the sooner someone flips the switch on it the better, but we're talking about the IMU, which is a stand-alone
app that pulls in CAPWATCH data.

Edit: - I just reviewed the instructions - step by step, but not for the faint of heart.  Where DOES the IMU get its data?  I thought it was CAPWATCH.