CAP Talk

General Discussion => The Lobby => Topic started by: vmstan on September 06, 2010, 08:18:20 PM

Title: CAP participation at political events
Post by: vmstan on September 06, 2010, 08:18:20 PM
I seem to recall a thread about this coming up a few months ago, but my search abilities were unable to bring it back from the grave. This caught my eye on a Google Alert today.

http://www.omakchronicle.com/nws/n100905a.shtml
QuoteOMAK - A Constitution eve service is planned for 5 p.m. Thursday, Sept. 16, in Civic League Park on Ash Street, Omak.
     The service will commemorate the signing of the Constitution on Sept. 17, 1787, and will begin with a formal presentation of the colors by the Okanogan-area Northern Desert Squadron of the Civil Air Patrol, an announcement said.
     Following the Pledge of Allegiance and singing of the national anthem, a commentary on the historic event will be read. The colors will be retired by the Civil Air Patrol.
     The public event is planned by the Okanogan County Tea Party Patriots in coordination the Civil Air Patrol.
     A group studying the Constitution using Skoussen's "5,000 Year Leap" as the primary resource will meet afterward. The discussion group is open to anyone interested, organizers said.

Maybe it's just the way it was worded, but I'm not a fan of the way it links us with a political group.
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Major Carrales on September 06, 2010, 08:27:55 PM
Quote from: Marshalus on September 06, 2010, 08:18:20 PM
I seem to recall a thread about this coming up a few months ago, but my search abilities were unable to bring it back from the grave. This caught my eye on a Google Alert today.

http://www.omakchronicle.com/nws/n100905a.shtml
QuoteOMAK - A Constitution eve service is planned for 5 p.m. Thursday, Sept. 16, in Civic League Park on Ash Street, Omak.
     The service will commemorate the signing of the Constitution on Sept. 17, 1787, and will begin with a formal presentation of the colors by the Okanogan-area Northern Desert Squadron of the Civil Air Patrol, an announcement said.
     Following the Pledge of Allegiance and singing of the national anthem, a commentary on the historic event will be read. The colors will be retired by the Civil Air Patrol.
     The public event is planned by the Okanogan County Tea Party Patriots in coordination the Civil Air Patrol.
     A group studying the Constitution using Skoussen's "5,000 Year Leap" as the primary resource will meet afterward. The discussion group is open to anyone interested, organizers said.

Maybe it's just the way it was worded, but I'm not a fan of the way it links us with a political group.

September 17 is US Constitution day, it is a Holiday as much as Flag Day and the like.  I see nothing political in what is planned other than a ceremony honoring the US Cosntitution.  That is, unless someone see's the Constitution as somehow abhorant.

Seems to me the News Paper in question may have alterned meaning of the story with the wording.  It is a "public event," the Civil Air Patrol is merely posting the colors.  I've had media do worse.
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on September 06, 2010, 08:34:02 PM
The problem is, the "Tea Party" is a political "organization" which on numerous occasions speaks out against the government and government officials. This is the second time a CAP unit has been involved and mentioned on this forum, and while posting the flag isn't screaming support, it sure looks that way. IIWASCC (If I Was A Squadron Commander), I would decline performing at one of these events hosted by the "Tea Party".
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: vmstan on September 06, 2010, 08:45:22 PM
Quote from: Major Carrales on September 06, 2010, 08:27:55 PM
September 17 is US Constitution day, it is a Holiday as much as Flag Day and the like.  I see nothing political in what is planned other than a ceremony honoring the US Cosntitution.  That is, unless someone see's the Constitution as somehow abhorant.

Seems to me the News Paper in question may have alterned meaning of the story with the wording.  It is a "public event," the Civil Air Patrol is merely posting the colors.  I've had media do worse.

Granted, I'll give you that. No problem with a flag ceremony honoring the Constitution. I think it just has to do with who the rally is affiliated with. Let's say the article read that CAP was doing the ceremony honoring the Constitution along with the The Black Panther Party, or the American Nazi Party. Would you feel the same way? Can you draw a line on what an acceptable association would be?
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Major Carrales on September 06, 2010, 08:46:03 PM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on September 06, 2010, 08:34:02 PM
The problem is, the "Tea Party" is a political "organization" which on numerous occasions speaks out against the government and government officials. This is the second time a CAP unit has been involved and mentioned on this forum, and while posting the flag isn't screaming support, it sure looks that way. IIWASCC (If I Was A Squadron Commander), I would decline performing at one of these events hosted by the "Tea Party".

Each of these organizations is different.  Some just offer education on the US Constitution....others are political action groups.  I would have to learn more about this one to make a determination.
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Major Carrales on September 06, 2010, 08:48:47 PM
Quote from: Marshalus on September 06, 2010, 08:45:22 PM
Quote from: Major Carrales on September 06, 2010, 08:27:55 PM
September 17 is US Constitution day, it is a Holiday as much as Flag Day and the like.  I see nothing political in what is planned other than a ceremony honoring the US Cosntitution.  That is, unless someone see's the Constitution as somehow abhorant.

Seems to me the News Paper in question may have alterned meaning of the story with the wording.  It is a "public event," the Civil Air Patrol is merely posting the colors.  I've had media do worse.

Granted, I'll give you that. No problem with a flag ceremony honoring the Constitution. I think it just has to do with who the rally is affiliated with. Let's say the article read that CAP was doing the ceremony honoring the Constitution along with the The Black Panther Party, or the American Nazi Party. Would you feel the same way? Can you draw a line on what an acceptable association would be?

Nazis and Black Panthers do not equal tea party movements no more than Democrats and Unions equate to Communists or Trostski-ites.

Let's know more about the event and organization before rushing to judgements.
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on September 06, 2010, 08:49:12 PM
Quote from: Marshalus on September 06, 2010, 08:45:22 PM
Quote from: Major Carrales on September 06, 2010, 08:27:55 PM
September 17 is US Constitution day, it is a Holiday as much as Flag Day and the like.  I see nothing political in what is planned other than a ceremony honoring the US Cosntitution.  That is, unless someone see's the Constitution as somehow abhorant.

Seems to me the News Paper in question may have alterned meaning of the story with the wording.  It is a "public event," the Civil Air Patrol is merely posting the colors.  I've had media do worse.

Granted, I'll give you that. No problem with a flag ceremony honoring the Constitution. I think it just has to do with who the rally is affiliated with. Let's say the article read that CAP was doing the ceremony honoring the Constitution along with the The Black Panther Party, or the American Nazi Party. Would you feel the same way? Can you draw a line on what an acceptable association would be?

The way it broke down in the last thread was something along the lines of:

Current government official events (not that those don't show up at Tea Parties).
VFWs/American Legion/Etc groups.
Community events.

I wouldn't show up to post the colors for a running candidate in order to avoid making it seem like we support a certain candidate over an incumbent/other party.

It's a tricky slope.
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on September 06, 2010, 08:50:39 PM
Quote from: Major Carrales on September 06, 2010, 08:48:47 PM
Nazis and Black Panthers do not equal tea party movements no more than Democrats and Unions equate to Communists or Trostski-ites.

Let's know more about the event and organization before rushing to judgements.

I have yet to see a Tea Party event in Chicago where our President isn't pictured without a Hitler mustache and similar connotations in writing. 
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Major Carrales on September 06, 2010, 08:51:06 PM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on September 06, 2010, 08:49:12 PM
Quote from: Marshalus on September 06, 2010, 08:45:22 PM
Quote from: Major Carrales on September 06, 2010, 08:27:55 PM
September 17 is US Constitution day, it is a Holiday as much as Flag Day and the like.  I see nothing political in what is planned other than a ceremony honoring the US Cosntitution.  That is, unless someone see's the Constitution as somehow abhorant.

Seems to me the News Paper in question may have alterned meaning of the story with the wording.  It is a "public event," the Civil Air Patrol is merely posting the colors.  I've had media do worse.

Granted, I'll give you that. No problem with a flag ceremony honoring the Constitution. I think it just has to do with who the rally is affiliated with. Let's say the article read that CAP was doing the ceremony honoring the Constitution along with the The Black Panther Party, or the American Nazi Party. Would you feel the same way? Can you draw a line on what an acceptable association would be?

The way it broke down in the last thread was something along the lines of:

Current government official events (not that those don't show up at Tea Parties).
VFWs/American Legion/Etc groups.
Community events.

I wouldn't show up to post the colors for a running candidate in order to avoid making it seem like we support a certain candidate over an incumbent/other party.

It's a tricky slope.

What about a televised debate where the colors are to be posted?
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Major Carrales on September 06, 2010, 08:54:10 PM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on September 06, 2010, 08:50:39 PM
Quote from: Major Carrales on September 06, 2010, 08:48:47 PM
Nazis and Black Panthers do not equal tea party movements no more than Democrats and Unions equate to Communists or Trostski-ites.

Let's know more about the event and organization before rushing to judgements.

I have yet to see a Tea Party event in Chicago where our President isn't pictured without a Hitler mustache and similar connotations in writing.

There are loons in every crowd, was not long ago I saw protestors with depitctions of Bush as a monkey, as Hitler, called WAR CRIMINAL and the like all from people proporting to support everything from Environmentalism to PEACE.   Some of the spectacle at some other parades on the WEST coast are too inapropriate to be posted on a CAP related forum.

This these people speak for the whole?  I should hope not.
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: vmstan on September 06, 2010, 09:12:22 PM
And how would you feel if CAP was presenting colors at their parade?
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Major Carrales on September 06, 2010, 09:15:00 PM
Quote from: Marshalus on September 06, 2010, 09:12:22 PM
And how would you feel if CAP was presenting colors at their parade?

If it were a Thanksgiving, Columbus Day, News Year's Day, Independence Day or other parade where the a CAP Color Guard was marching and, say the next float was a Gay Pride, Tea Party or other such thing would it constitute endorcement? 
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: NIN on September 06, 2010, 09:39:20 PM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on September 06, 2010, 08:34:02 PM
The problem is, the "Tea Party" is a political "organization" which on numerous occasions speaks out against the government and government officials. This is the second time a CAP unit has been involved and mentioned on this forum, and while posting the flag isn't screaming support, it sure looks that way. IIWASCC (If I Was A Squadron Commander), I would decline performing at one of these events hosted by the "Tea Party".

Yeah, if its was "The Okanogan County Ladies Tea Party" (as in white gloves and cucumber sandwiches), t'would be a little different conversation we'd be having, huh?

Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: vmstan on September 06, 2010, 09:43:45 PM
My search skills have been honed: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=10385.0
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Major Carrales on September 06, 2010, 09:49:08 PM
In anycase, after presenting much of the "Devil's Advocacy" on the matter...in the end, I would likely have thought better of it as the Squadron Commander.

The fact is that politics and religion are precarious areas when official CAP actvitiy is concerned.  If this event is merely a ceremony where the US Constitution is honored, its history is recounted and constitutional scholarship is presented...then it's a go.  If it become political "bashing and posturing" its a no go.
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: RiverAux on September 06, 2010, 09:53:23 PM
If an event is hosted by any group with a political agenda, even if that isn't what that particular event is about, we should stay away.  If the Democratic Party hosted a rally celebrating the cuteness of kittens, CAP shouldn't be there. 
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: DakRadz on September 06, 2010, 09:59:45 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on September 06, 2010, 09:53:23 PM
If an event is hosted by any group with a political agenda, even if that isn't what that particular event is about, we should stay away.  If the Democratic Party hosted a rally celebrating the cuteness of kittens, CAP shouldn't be there.

Speak for yourself- they had Mr. Tinkles from Cats vs. Dogs at that rally. I went.

As a cadet, I'd still express concern to my Project Officer if we were going to anything politically sponsored.
Then again, politics give me a headache, so I don't wanna listen to it during my enjoyable cadet time ;)
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Major Carrales on September 06, 2010, 10:02:06 PM
Quote from: DakRadz on September 06, 2010, 09:59:45 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on September 06, 2010, 09:53:23 PM
If an event is hosted by any group with a political agenda, even if that isn't what that particular event is about, we should stay away.  If the Democratic Party hosted a rally celebrating the cuteness of kittens, CAP shouldn't be there.

Speak for yourself- they had Mr. Tinkles from Cats vs. Dogs at that rally. I went.

As a cadet, I'd still express concern to my Project Officer if we were going to anything politically sponsored.
Then again, politics give me a headache, so I don't wanna listen to it during my enjoyable cadet time ;)

Why not contact the commander of said squadron for a comment or explanation of that is really going on instead of speculating on this?  Last time I talked to Southwest Region on a certain matter, one of you take the lead on this one.
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Patterson on September 08, 2010, 04:19:59 AM
Who cares?!?!  If we are to say no to this event, we must say no to ALL EVENTS, as all events have a particular cause.  So in the feel good non political happiness world we all live in today, I say let's shut down operations so we do not offend anyone.
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on September 08, 2010, 04:37:08 AM
Quote from: Patterson on September 08, 2010, 04:19:59 AM
Who cares?!?!  If we are to say no to this event, we must say no to ALL EVENTS, as all events have a particular cause.  So in the feel good non political happiness world we all live in today, I say let's shut down operations so we do not offend anyone.


We say NO to political events...
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Patterson on September 08, 2010, 02:47:33 PM
^ I would say the majority of events some Squadrons participate in are "political events".  Too many people are caught up on the idea that just because a Democrat or Republican is President means we can not "post the American Flag" at a support for a veterans group which just might be sponsored by an opposing political party. 

We need to decide "support or no support" strictly on the nature of the event.  If the event is to raise money for a particular candidate running for some kind of office, then "NO"....and I agree with that.  HOWEVER, if we are supporting an event that raises money for wounded Service Members which may just have happened to be setup by a political party....the answer would be "HELL YES LETS SUPPORT OUR WOUNDED SERVICE MEMBERS".

Some of you are ignorant and too quick to drop the "NO" on something that really is more innocent than the last fundraiser you probably supported.  If you buy Girl Scout cookies or Boy Scout Popcorn you support organizations that HATE homosexuals and will not let them be members.  If you sent in a check to "the American Cancer Society" you just supported an organization that has just been identified as paying its leading group "management" more than it gives out to Cancer Research.

So, get off your high horses, support AMERICA, the FLAG, and innocent activities were the causes are genuine and pure.

Some of you will Bash me now and Say "I support activities where the KKK or Communist Party waves an American flag.  Well.... I will tell you to grow up, and don't even bother posting because I would never agree with doing such a thing.  I direct you NOW to my line above " innocent activities were the causes are genuine and pure".  KKK and Nazis are not Pure or Innocent, so don't even try throwing that around as an opposing viewpoint.   
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on September 08, 2010, 05:36:50 PM
Neither is Tea Party then. Duh.
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Short Field on September 08, 2010, 05:39:48 PM
Quote from: Patterson on September 08, 2010, 02:47:33 PM
So, get off your high horses, support AMERICA, the FLAG, and innocent activities were the causes are genuine and pure.
I assume you mean "where the causes are genuine and pure"

Sorry, but the issue is really about the local person who decides that causes are "genuine and pure".  What guideline do they use?  How about supporting all political parties who run candidates in our elections with CAP flag ceremonies?  Who decides?  Do you provide support just to those that you support and ignore the others because you don't like their platforms?  FYI:  Anyone who claims their cause is "genuine and pure" sends shivers up my spine.
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: GTCommando on September 08, 2010, 05:59:32 PM
Showing support for a particular political organization and/or candidate is not allowed. I'll have to look up the exact regs. However, I personally don't see any problem with posting the colors.
What would really get someone in trouble is showing up at one of these events and participate in a CAP uniform. I was talking with one of my Cadets and he said he saw someone at a Tea Party rally wearing BDUs. He asked our Deputy Commander about it, and he said that were the individual identified, he could be dismissed for suggesting that CAP endorsed a political entity. I personally love what the tea party is doing (Please don't turn this into a political thread!), but I still wouldn't show up in a CAP Uniform.  ::)
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Patterson on September 08, 2010, 11:22:00 PM
Last I looked the "Tea Party Patriots" are not a political party in the particular County where this event is taking place.

Everyone needs to calm down.  Posting the colors at an event where the primary focus is the reading of the Constitution is not a political event.  After the reading, singing the National Anthem and reciting the pledge of allegiance, the CAP will retire the colors and depart.  Then and only then will an educational retrospective discussion of the constitution be conducted for those interested.  No money is being raised publicly for a political candidate nor are any giving political speeches.  This is only about reading the constitution, reciting the pledge of allegiance and singing the national anthem.  PERRIOD.]

If you all want to play this game, be prepared to play.  If we begin this "can't support because" junk I will personally go after every single CAP Squadron that posts colors anywhere and at every event.  If a Coca-Cola sign is visible where your SQUADRON is posting the flag at a sporting event, veterans events etc., that means you support Coca-Cola.....

Do you see how ridiculous that is?!?!  That is what you all sound like. 

Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on September 09, 2010, 03:18:20 AM
Go ahead and start your Crusade with that stretch. For non-political groups, Tea Parties sure do participate in a lot of...politics.
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Major Carrales on September 09, 2010, 03:21:00 AM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on September 09, 2010, 03:18:20 AM
Go ahead and start your Crusade with that stretch. For non-political groups, Tea Parties sure do participate in a lot of...politics.

We get it, you don't like the Tea Parties.
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on September 09, 2010, 03:33:09 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on September 09, 2010, 03:21:00 AM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on September 09, 2010, 03:18:20 AM
Go ahead and start your Crusade with that stretch. For non-political groups, Tea Parties sure do participate in a lot of...politics.

We get it, you don't like the Tea Parties.

I don't like Code Pink either. What's your point sir?
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: RADIOMAN015 on September 09, 2010, 03:36:27 AM
We recently had a discussion about this.  I was considering issuing a press release about the availability of our Color Guard Team for functions.  We decided NOT to do this but to look specifically at well established groups/functions that would be non political & devoid of any potential embarassment to the organization.

Some examples would be Rotary Club, Lions Club, American Legion, VFW.  Typical Memorial Day, Veterans Day, 4th of July parades.  Perhaps a dedication of a building (related to aviation).    In the distance past the team also did some on base military support activities for a few of the units on base.

I think we do have to look at the activity and be comfortable that it meets the spirt of the AF regulation regarding the wear of AF type uniforms. 

As the examples above show these are long established organizations.
RM

Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on September 09, 2010, 03:39:34 AM
RM and I agree on something. o_0

He pretty much explained what most CAP units live by for the past 60+ years.
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Eclipse on September 09, 2010, 03:44:46 AM
Quote from: Patterson on September 08, 2010, 11:22:00 PM
Last I looked the "Tea Party Patriots" are not a political party in the particular County where this event is taking place.

Everyone needs to calm down.  Posting the colors at an event where the primary focus is the reading of the Constitution is not a political event.  After the reading, singing the National Anthem and reciting the pledge of allegiance, the CAP will retire the colors and depart.  Then and only then will an educational retrospective discussion of the constitution be conducted for those interested.  No money is being raised publicly for a political candidate nor are any giving political speeches.  This is only about reading the constitution, reciting the pledge of allegiance and singing the national anthem.  PERRIOD.]

If you all want to play this game, be prepared to play.  If we begin this "can't support because" junk I will personally go after every single CAP Squadron that posts colors anywhere and at every event.  If a Coca-Cola sign is visible where your SQUADRON is posting the flag at a sporting event, veterans events etc., that means you support Coca-Cola.....

Do you see how ridiculous that is?!?!  That is what you all sound like.

Good luck with that, you'll need to start with every time CAP is involved with posting colors at both professional and amateur sporting events, most VFW halls, airshows, and any number of common activities which have corporate sponsors.  The Olympics as an example of a small, obscure event. 

Many activities CAP participates in are "neutral" in that they are simply civic-pride-type situations, etc.

Many others are situations in which one or more of the candidates is allowed colors and other of pomp and circumstance as official
protocol of their office (usually the incumbents, but not always).  Generally the Democrats, Republicans, and even Libertarians and
some independents can fall into that category.

Rarely if ever is CAP participation anything but well-intentioned flag-waving (both literally and figuratively), however on occasion
a commander needs to step in and remind people regarding the rules and common sense.  The fact that you're going to "go-after"
people isn't going to help your stance that this is a neutral activity with no political overtones.

You also can't compartmentalize the pomp and circumstance from some portions which may have an inappropriate political slant -
CAP's involvement is an endorsement of the entire activity, so either it is appropriate or it isn't.
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Major Carrales on September 09, 2010, 03:47:58 AM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on September 09, 2010, 03:33:09 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on September 09, 2010, 03:21:00 AM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on September 09, 2010, 03:18:20 AM
Go ahead and start your Crusade with that stretch. For non-political groups, Tea Parties sure do participate in a lot of...politics.

We get it, you don't like the Tea Parties.

I don't like Code Pink either. What's your point sir?

My point is you are allowing your POLITCAL dislike of an organization filter into a CAP oriented discussion.  Its a sign of the time, everything is POLAR.  Proving that, at any given time, any neutral endeavor can be polluted by this tripe.

Suppose you are at a VFW affair, post, and then some Veteran makes a statement that is political and then is joined in by his fellows.  So much so, it makes the papers.  What then?  I'll bet that the people here won't even look into it as I have come to suggest of late.  Instead, the trash talking commences in total blindness.

Did any of you contact the Squadron in question and get an answer...or it that an "incredulous streak" I detect from people who like to trash talk on a CAP oriented forum?

Its time to "put up or shut up" on these issues...
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on September 09, 2010, 03:52:48 AM
Maybe because it's a political group to the core? Maybe it's because I interpret the regulations as baring political events such as this? I may lean towards the Democrats, but I would refuse an event hosted by the coffee party as well.
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Eclipse on September 09, 2010, 03:57:33 AM
In this case we can ignore the host organization altogether and simply address the basis for the discussion, Cleon Skousen's book.

Considering that, while it supports the US Constitution, it is a faith-specific and agenda-driven document which will likely generate, at a minimum, some very "spirited" rhetoric about the current administration, CAP would likely have been best served by simply not participating.

It is entirely possible, and highly likely that the local unit is unaware of the planned discussion, and was simply invited to the Constitution party, which doesn't negate the issue of their involvement being a passive endorsement of the entire event.  If all the organizers wanted was a "discussion", they could have reserved a library meeting room and bought a couple of boxes of donuts. What they appear to have set up is an "apple pie and Chevrolet" rally to foster their agenda, which they have every right to do, but that doesn't mean it is a good idea for us to play.
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Eclipse on September 09, 2010, 04:01:06 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on September 09, 2010, 03:47:58 AM
Suppose you are at a VFW affair, post, and then some Veteran makes a statement that is political and then is joined in by his fellows.  So much so, it makes the papers.  What then?  I'll bet that the people here won't even look into it as I have come to suggest of late.  Instead, the trash talking commences in total blindness.

That would be just as inappropriate, and I would certainly disengage and reconsider future involvement.  The VFW, however, as an organization, is apolitical, and any issues that would pop up would be bad-actor members, not the VFW itself.
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Major Carrales on September 09, 2010, 04:03:38 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 09, 2010, 04:01:06 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on September 09, 2010, 03:47:58 AM
Suppose you are at a VFW affair, post, and then some Veteran makes a statement that is political and then is joined in by his fellows.  So much so, it makes the papers.  What then?  I'll bet that the people here won't even look into it as I have come to suggest of late.  Instead, the trash talking commences in total blindness.

That would be just as inappropriate, and I would certainly disengage and reconsider future involvement.  The VFW, however, as an organization, is apolitical, and any issues that would pop up would be bad-actor members, not the VFW itself.

Can't take it back once it happens.  No fair cheating.  The fact is, everything these days is political.
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Major Carrales on September 09, 2010, 04:07:54 AM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on September 09, 2010, 03:52:48 AM
I may lean towards the Democrats

The true reason for "offense" comes out.  Why not just make that clear from the start.  It is an organization representing a message that you find politically abhorant.  I got that message quite clearly from your use of the word "crusade."  Bias is hard to hide.  Why the subterfuge?  Why not be honest?

No need to be offended by that or embarrased in any way, its the times we live in.  I supose the next step is for you to "label" me a "mindless CONSERVATIVE" or "Right Wing Hack" and spout something negative about Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh.  Even though there is no proof to that fact other than "I take issue to your point, thus I must be 'label A' and can never again be correct, valid or taken seriously."

Seriously, the POLITICS (and its monkey shines) is making me ill in the real world, and now y'all bring it to CAPTALK.

I suspect that this is not a debate on the nature of posting the colors, but rather, a partisan debate between opposing political camps.  I recommend locking the topic before the DEMS and REPS, CONSERVATIVES and LIBERAL tear this place apart.
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Eclipse on September 09, 2010, 04:08:28 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on September 09, 2010, 04:03:38 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 09, 2010, 04:01:06 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on September 09, 2010, 03:47:58 AM
Suppose you are at a VFW affair, post, and then some Veteran makes a statement that is political and then is joined in by his fellows.  So much so, it makes the papers.  What then?  I'll bet that the people here won't even look into it as I have come to suggest of late.  Instead, the trash talking commences in total blindness.

That would be just as inappropriate, and I would certainly disengage and reconsider future involvement.  The VFW, however, as an organization, is apolitical, and any issues that would pop up would be bad-actor members, not the VFW itself.

Can't take it back once it happens.  No fair cheating.  The fact is, everything these days is political.

What do you mean "You can't take it back?"  No one, including CAP, can anticipate some ding-dong individual member of any organization
we are working with, including the military, from saying or doing something dumb (including ourselves).  In those cases we disavow publicly if necessary and take better steps in the future to prevent them.

There's a difference between presenting the colors at a Memorial Day service or a ball game where some goof ball stands up and
chants about some nonsense, and us going in, eyes-wide, to a situation where we know the very subject matter is potentially problematic.  In the former we FIMO, in the latter we stay home.

That's called ORM.
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on September 09, 2010, 04:12:47 AM
My comment about the "crusade" was in regards to Patterson promising to "call out" every activity. Let's not take my words out of context lest this turns into a chapter from a Texas history book.
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: NCRblues on September 09, 2010, 04:15:37 AM
A Texas history book  ::)

Stop drinking the cool aid man....
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Wicky on September 09, 2010, 04:17:43 AM
I think a clarification on this needs to be posted.
1. The Northern Desert Composite Squadron "IS NOT" co-hosting this event.
2. The Squadron was asked to present the colors in honor of the Constitution of the United States, NOT A POLITICAL PARTY.
3. All CAP members in uniform will be off the premises before any other activity begin, if any other activity be presented.
4. All facts should be obtained before any accusations or ti-rates begin.
5. No monies were offered nor collected for this event. It is a community service event.
6. The salute is to the Constitution of the United States and nothing else.
In these times of such division in this country it seems to me to be necessary to remind all that CAP is one family no matter the political leanings of any one individual. The cadets from the Northern Desert Composite Squadron put in hundreds of hours of community service each year. In my opinion, we all should be thanking them for their dedication to serving their community and not criticizing them for wanting to honor the Constitution of the United States of America that so many of our fellow members have chosen to also honor. NO MATTER THEIR POLITICAL BELIEFS!
Member of the NDCS
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Major Carrales on September 09, 2010, 04:19:49 AM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on September 09, 2010, 04:12:47 AM
My comment about the "crusade" was in regards to Patterson promising to "call out" every activity. Let's not take my words out of context lest this turns into a chapter from a Texas history book.

"College Limbo..." eh? To quote Stan Lee "'nuff said."  As a Teacher in Texas of 7th Grade Texas history I am offended by that comment.  You are proving the point I just made about partisanship.

I am disallusioned with both sides.  I am a Constitutionalist, but in the fact that I have studied it greatly (yes, in College) and use it as a benchmark for all legilstive intent, executive action and jurisprudence.  Not because I want someone elected or ousted.
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Eclipse on September 09, 2010, 04:21:10 AM
^ Most of Wicky's post is irrelevant to the discussion.  The fact that the members participating are dedicated does not change the fact that
they may be misguided in participating.

As to the comments that we are supposed to contact the unit for more details - this discussion is based on a public news story, so if nothing else this is a lesson in unintended consequences.
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Major Carrales on September 09, 2010, 04:22:44 AM
Quote from: Wicky on September 09, 2010, 04:17:43 AM
I think a clarification on this needs to be posted.
1. The Northern Desert Composite Squadron "IS NOT" co-hosting this event.
2. The Squadron was asked to present the colors in honor of the Constitution of the United States, NOT A POLITICAL PARTY.
3. All CAP members in uniform will be off the premises before any other activity begin, if any other activity be presented.
4. All facts should be obtained before any accusations or ti-rates begin.
5. No monies were offered nor collected for this event. It is a community service event.
6. The salute is to the Constitution of the United States and nothing else.
In these times of such division in this country it seems to me to be necessary to remind all that CAP is one family no matter the political leanings of any one individual. The cadets from the Northern Desert Composite Squadron put in hundreds of hours of community service each year. In my opinion, we all should be thanking them for their dedication to serving their community and not criticizing them for wanting to honor the Constitution of the United States of America that so many of our fellow members have chosen to also honor. NO MATTER THEIR POLITICAL BELIEFS!
Member of the NDCS

Thank you, I called for something like this posts back.  However, the political divisions I have been mentioning forbade rational thought in favor of partisan rant blind of the fact.

Thank the Cadets of NDCS from the CAP Officers and Cadets of South Texas for their work in serving their community.  May there service rise above the Lilliputian antics presented here today.
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Major Carrales on September 09, 2010, 04:24:34 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 09, 2010, 04:21:10 AM
As to the comments that we are supposed to contact the unit for more details - this discussion is based on a public news story, so if nothing else this is a lesson in unintended consequences.

If you go back a few posts, I mentioned that the story might not be accurate in that the Medica sometimes confuses, obfuscates or combines facts sometimes presenting an unclear picture.

Quote from: Major Carrales on September 06, 2010, 08:27:55 PM
Seems to me the News Paper in question may have alterned meaning of the story with the wording.  It is a "public event," the Civil Air Patrol is merely posting the colors.  I've had media do worse.
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Major Carrales on September 09, 2010, 04:32:02 AM
Somewhere out there, in the vastness of CAPTALK, there is a lonely "LOCK" needing a lovely "THREAD."  Come here, young lovers, this topic is your "LOVER'S LANE."
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Wicky on September 09, 2010, 05:18:12 AM
Gentlemen:
Please check out Public Law 104
In 2004 Congress passed 108-447 Section 111 dedicating Sept 17 as Constituational Day. In honor of the Constitution being signed.
Sept 17 through 23 as Constitution Week.
Federal Law requires all federal affiliated agencies (including the Air Force and it's associated organizations and education centered organizations to hold a meeting/class/or educational event in honor of the Constituation of the United States of America.
Also, according to the Federal government - The Tea Party is not a political party. It is a congloberation of individuals not affiliated with a political party.
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Short Field on September 09, 2010, 05:40:54 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on September 06, 2010, 08:48:47 PM
Nazis and Black Panthers do not equal tea party movements no more than Democrats and Unions equate to Communists or Trostski-ites.

QuoteA group studying the Constitution using Skoussen's "5,000 Year Leap" as the primary resource will meet afterward. The discussion group is open to anyone interested, organizers said.

Every time I filled out the paperwork for my security clearance,  they always wanted to know what groups I belonged to.  Membership in the John Birch Society was a red flag on getting a clearance.   My views toward members of the John Birch Society and their supporters was set back then and has not changed since.   Read who Skoussen is and what he has written.

Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: MikeD on September 09, 2010, 05:53:47 AM
I'd say that any activity backed by any single political group, even a "we love the US and puppies day", is something we should skip.  I'd have some heartburn and want to pass up the chain an event where a current elected official is going to speak if it's a campaign stop. 

Someone asked about the debates, and if officially recognized as such, I'd say that's another matter entirely and fair game.  It'd be really awesome for us to be doing something for the presidential debates on national TV, and I think hard for anyone to claim we're supporting one party or another. 

As a fed, in our annual ethics training we're taught that appearances count for more then the actual action.  For example, even though a $20 gift annually is legal from a company I'm managing a contract with, some things like a shirt with the project logo, are fine, lunch is iffy, and something like a couple of beers at happy hour (for say closer to $10) could easily be reported in a worse light.  We need to think of how something could be spun not just the facts, before we act at any event.  The less partisan the better, unless both major parties are involved. 
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Wicky on September 09, 2010, 06:25:50 AM
Our County Commissioners will be in attendance - they are Republican, Democrat and Independent along with the District Judges and the Superior Court Judge.
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on September 09, 2010, 06:30:14 AM
Everything about this says NO to me, especially since the Tea Party is so controversial right now.

It doesn't matter if it's left, right or centre...we don't have any business as CAP associating with ANY group trying to influence the political process.  It comes way too close to "implied endorsement" by CAP and the Air Force.

Now, if, as a private citizen in civilian clothes, you want to take part in a rally by the Tea Party, Coffee Party (yes, there is one) or Socialist Party USA, as long as you are not advocating harm to public officials or overthrow of the U.S. Government, that is your right as a citizen.

But as CAP we should avoid even the appearance of endorsements of political groups of any kind.
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: raivo on September 09, 2010, 06:44:32 AM
I guess I'm gonna say "judgment call" again (as I usually do.)

Back in the day, as a cadet, we presented the colors at a fundraising dinner for the then-governor. Which is technically a political event, sure, but looking back I still don't think an outsider looking in would have gotten the impression that CAP supported the Republican Party, or the governor's politics.

On the other hand, the Tea Party is a very "controversial" group. There's a number of sane, rational people who are in genuine support of the Constitution, and there's a number of people who believe some, um, very "interesting" things about the Constitution. I'm not going to claim that the entire group is comprised of crazies, but they have enough of a reputation that I would be very hesitant to associate CAP with them.
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: FARRIER on September 09, 2010, 07:49:53 AM
If all members of the local government are attending the first part of this event, what is all the "stressing out" about? Using them as the "canary in the coal mine", they wouldn't go near anything that would taint their reputation.

Respectfully,
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: RiverAux on September 09, 2010, 11:42:40 AM
Quote from: Wicky on September 09, 2010, 05:18:12 AM
Gentlemen:
Please check out Public Law 104
In 2004 Congress passed 108-447 Section 111 dedicating Sept 17 as Constituational Day. In honor of the Constitution being signed.
Sept 17 through 23 as Constitution Week.
Federal Law requires all federal affiliated agencies (including the Air Force and it's associated organizations and education centered organizations to hold a meeting/class/or educational event in honor of the Constituation of the United States of America.
Also, according to the Federal government - The Tea Party is not a political party. It is a congloberation of individuals not affiliated with a political party.
I don't think anyone here is saying that it is a bad idea to honor the Constitution.

However, just because the "Tea Party" isn't an actual registered official political party doesn't mean that it isn't a political entity and as such, we should generally stay away. 
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: JeffDG on September 09, 2010, 02:14:42 PM
So...

What if a local group set up a Constitution Day celebration and asked a CAP squadron to post the colours?  We're all fine with that, aren't we?

Now, after making that request and the appropriate approvals, someone from the local branch of ACORN comes up to the organizers and says "Hey, we'd like to sponsor your event, provide some volunteers and some refreshments and such.  Our local muckity-muck would just like the opportunity to address the crowd."

Are you advocating that the CAP squadron renege on their promise to post the colours just because another group decided to help out too?
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Eclipse on September 09, 2010, 02:15:17 PM
Quote from: Wicky on September 09, 2010, 05:18:12 AM
Gentlemen:
Please check out Public Law 104
In 2004 Congress passed 108-447 Section 111 dedicating Sept 17 as Constituational Day. In honor of the Constitution being signed.
Sept 17 through 23 as Constitution Week.
Federal Law requires all federal affiliated agencies (including the Air Force and it's associated organizations and education centered organizations to hold a meeting/class/or educational event in honor of the Constituation of the United States of America.
Also, according to the Federal government - The Tea Party is not a political party. It is a congloberation of individuals not affiliated with a political party.

Irrelevant - the sponsoring organization in this case is not a federal agency, or an "associated organization" - not even sure why you brought it into the conversation.

Quote from: Wicky on September 09, 2010, 06:25:50 AM
Our County Commissioners will be in attendance - they are Republican, Democrat and Independent along with the District Judges and the Superior Court Judge.

Irrelevant.
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Eclipse on September 09, 2010, 02:18:56 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on September 09, 2010, 02:14:42 PM
Are you advocating that the CAP squadron renege on their promise to post the colours just because another group decided to help out too?

Possibly - an offer to help is not so set in stone if the person you are helping decides to do something which breaks the law, our regs, or the "articles of bad ideas".
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: JeffDG on September 09, 2010, 02:23:58 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 09, 2010, 02:18:56 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on September 09, 2010, 02:14:42 PM
Are you advocating that the CAP squadron renege on their promise to post the colours just because another group decided to help out too?

Possibly - an offer to help is not so set in stone if the person you are helping decides to do something which breaks the law, our regs, or the "articles of bad ideas".

OK, so the other examples where commercial businesses also sponsor events are bad too?

Small niche volunteer groups, like committees that organize commemorations for Constitution Day, are going to take assistance from whoever gives it to them, so I guess CAP should just say no to avoid potentially being in the same room as someone who might have a political opinion.
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on September 09, 2010, 04:30:03 PM
In short, yes. We should always ask who else is participating.
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: JeffDG on September 09, 2010, 04:59:10 PM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on September 09, 2010, 04:30:03 PM
In short, yes. We should always ask who else is participating.

How often?  If another group signs on the day before an event, do we pull out at the last minute, leaving a worthy community group stuck for relying in good faith upon a commitment that CAP gave?
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Eclipse on September 09, 2010, 05:11:24 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on September 09, 2010, 04:59:10 PM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on September 09, 2010, 04:30:03 PM
In short, yes. We should always ask who else is participating.

How often?  If another group signs on the day before an event, do we pull out at the last minute, leaving a worthy community group stuck for relying in good faith upon a commitment that CAP gave?

Yes.  If you agree to "x" and it turns out to be "y", that's not CAP's fault anymore than if a weather issue caused a safety situation that CAP decided was too high a risk to be involved.

CAP was also relying on the "good faith" of the group in it's proper characterization of the activity.  It is interesting that you want to continue to allow for the effect on the downtrodden community group, but don't seem to care about the ramifications for CAP.

Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: JeffDG on September 09, 2010, 07:11:29 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 09, 2010, 05:11:24 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on September 09, 2010, 04:59:10 PM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on September 09, 2010, 04:30:03 PM
In short, yes. We should always ask who else is participating.

How often?  If another group signs on the day before an event, do we pull out at the last minute, leaving a worthy community group stuck for relying in good faith upon a commitment that CAP gave?

Yes.  If you agree to "x" and it turns out to be "y", that's not CAP's fault anymore than if a weather issue caused a safety situation that CAP decided was too high a risk to be involved.

CAP was also relying on the "good faith" of the group in it's proper characterization of the activity.  It is interesting that you want to continue to allow for the effect on the downtrodden community group, but don't seem to care about the ramifications for CAP.

The sponsor of an event does not necessarily change the nature of the activity.
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on September 09, 2010, 07:17:57 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on September 09, 2010, 07:11:29 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 09, 2010, 05:11:24 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on September 09, 2010, 04:59:10 PM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on September 09, 2010, 04:30:03 PM
In short, yes. We should always ask who else is participating.

How often?  If another group signs on the day before an event, do we pull out at the last minute, leaving a worthy community group stuck for relying in good faith upon a commitment that CAP gave?

Yes.  If you agree to "x" and it turns out to be "y", that's not CAP's fault anymore than if a weather issue caused a safety situation that CAP decided was too high a risk to be involved.

CAP was also relying on the "good faith" of the group in it's proper characterization of the activity.  It is interesting that you want to continue to allow for the effect on the downtrodden community group, but don't seem to care about the ramifications for CAP.

The sponsor of an event does not necessarily change the nature of the activity.

It absolutely sets the tone of the event. If there are two events planned on April 20th, one by the Collegiate Association of Stoners and one by the New Aryan Brotherhood, do you really think they will be the same? Granted, this isn't a direct example, but both celebrate 4/20 in their own way, which is the point.
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Eclipse on September 09, 2010, 07:24:32 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on September 09, 2010, 07:11:29 PM
The sponsor of an event does not necessarily change the nature of the activity.

Sponsor as in advertising? Probably not, though Coke is not likely to put their name on a T-Shirt that espouses the overthrow of the US government.

Sponsor as in the people running the activity?  Of course they do.
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: lordmonar on September 09, 2010, 08:47:56 PM
This is one of those things you will just have to play by ear.

I see no problem with a CAP color guard at a "political" even....say the DNC or GOP conventions or rallies.....but totally can see why we would stay away from other organisations (KKK, Neo-Nazis, etc).

But I don't have a good answer other than just to say "use your best judgement and request assistance from wing/region/national if in doubt."

One of the reasons why we get paid the big buck!  >:D
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Major Carrales on September 10, 2010, 02:38:45 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 09, 2010, 07:24:32 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on September 09, 2010, 07:11:29 PM
The sponsor of an event does not necessarily change the nature of the activity.

Sponsor as in advertising? Probably not, though Coke is not likely to put their name on a T-Shirt that espouses the overthrow of the US government.

Sponsor as in the people running the activity?  Of course they do.

The Coke example and overthrow of the government is a stretch.

So, what are us trying to insinuate tou analogy....the "Tea Party" is trying to over throw the government using the US Constitution?  Overthrowing the government with the government?
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on September 10, 2010, 02:58:30 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on September 10, 2010, 02:38:45 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 09, 2010, 07:24:32 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on September 09, 2010, 07:11:29 PM
The sponsor of an event does not necessarily change the nature of the activity.

Sponsor as in advertising? Probably not, though Coke is not likely to put their name on a T-Shirt that espouses the overthrow of the US government.

Sponsor as in the people running the activity?  Of course they do.

The Coke example and overthrow of the government is a stretch.

So, what are us trying to insinuate tou analogy....the "Tea Party" is trying to over throw the government using the US Constitution?  Overthrowing the government with the government?

There are elements in this and other groups that advocate non-constitutional ways, but I think Eclipse was talking in general.
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Major Carrales on September 10, 2010, 03:13:53 AM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on September 10, 2010, 02:58:30 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on September 10, 2010, 02:38:45 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 09, 2010, 07:24:32 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on September 09, 2010, 07:11:29 PM
The sponsor of an event does not necessarily change the nature of the activity.

Sponsor as in advertising? Probably not, though Coke is not likely to put their name on a T-Shirt that espouses the overthrow of the US government.

Sponsor as in the people running the activity?  Of course they do.

The Coke example and overthrow of the government is a stretch.

So, what are us trying to insinuate tou analogy....the "Tea Party" is trying to over throw the government using the US Constitution?  Overthrowing the government with the government?

There are elements in this and other groups that advocate non-constitutional ways, but I think Eclipse was talking in general.

Then let him reply for himself.

As I have seen, the main issue these groups bank on is on how to interpret the Constitution (no different than Federalists and Anti-Federalists, Jeffersonians and Hamiltonians, Jacksonians and Whigs and the list goes on). 
Title: Re: CAP participation at political events
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on September 10, 2010, 03:21:10 AM
That's great! That's what the two major parties claim to do as well. But at each and every activity I see this theme instead:

(http://gazetteonline.com/files/2010/07/billboard.jpg)

I also see a lot of Birthers, Muslim xenophobes (as in, the President is one, not that it would matter). And none of those messages should get within a mile of any CAP mention.