Potential members that like to show off

[Stonewall]

Did the title of this thread do it justice?

I manage my squadron's website so I get all the inquiries from folks interested in joining CAP, both cadet and senior.  In the past couple of weeks I've gotten 4 separate emails from folks showing an interest in flying for CAP, one was a local sports caster for www.news4jax.com who basically asked how he can fly for free.  I imagine there are several folks like that out there.  But what bothers me is when people email me listing every friggin qualification they have in an effort to impress someone.

In fact, in 2005 I got into an argument with my wing commander because an interested person sent me 3 separate emails with his 5 page resume attached which listed everything from former Intelligence Specialist to Level IV Ninja.  Just as I always do, I suggest they visit the squadron during our regular meeting and if they have any specific questions, please ask.  I also include the NHQ website.  This guy complained to the wing commander through the wing website that I didn't satisfy his request for information stating "I sent my resume to him 3 times".  He sent it to the Wing Queen and she attempted to scold me for passing up such an incredible potential member.   Grrr...

Most recently, yesterday in fact, I had a parent send an email explaining how his son is taking flight lessons, is some sort of Royal Ranger (equivalent of Eagle Scout), is a straight A student and track star.  As if we'd be honored and privileged to have him (as we compete against the 10 other activities he's involved in).

Anyone get this one?  Or is it just me?  I know, it's just me...

[Spike]

Not just you my friend.  There are people that think accomplishments define their life.  Sadly, they are mistaken.  I would rather take the guy living under the bridge who has a desire just to make coffee during the meeting than the guy with two airplanes, four kids and a dog who wants to be in CAP just for one more thing to add to his "I did this" book.

You will always have this, and anyone that says "not happening in my unit" is a liar or has no idea it is going on because they in fact are the person who we are referencing. 

[mmouw]

I say that the question that should be asked of them is "What can you do for CAP and not we can do for you." Depending on there answer, that will show everyone what their motives are. Not everyone is cut out for volunteerism.

[Rotorhead]

Tell 'em they're overqualified.

[Major Lord]

Ask them to prepare a lengthy power point presentation that the Sq members can laugh at scornfully while drinking beer.....I mean review for consideration for advanced promotion......

We have had a number of people who claim to have been green berets, seals, and in one particularly memorable experience, one person who claimed to be female, but would not show us errrr, her/his ID, and one pedophile in the process of being cashiered from a rather inglorious 12 month stay in the Air Force. All these people had incredible qualifications. And I mean just that-their claimed qualifications did not have credibility. They would have been more likely to be accepted as a member if they just showed up with a pulse and a desire to be there.

Major Lord

Major Lord

[LtCol057]

I had a possible new member call me about 6 weeks ago. He started out telling me his pilot qualifications, said he's a CFI, MEL, lots of other abbreviations.  Was really interested in the flying aspect. I told him that I expect all my pilots to become Oflight pilots, and work on MP status.  When I told him that I also expect all my pilots to do a squadron staff job, he really wanted to be a crew chief on the plane.  When I told him that I will not assign someone that is new to that job, I haven't heard from him since.  That part is irrelevant anyway, because we don't have a plane anymore. 

Maybe I have strigent expectations of our pilots.  My Ops Officer has suggested that all our aircrews also become UDF or GT qualified too.  And that's coming from a pilot. 

[N Harmon]

Has anyone else noticed that the more someone talks up their "qualifications", the more those qualifications end up being rather lame or made up? And conversely, the people who really do have amazing qualifications don't talk them up very much. I've seen this in and out of CAP.

[RiverAux]

Assuming that the person isn't one of those SEAL/Ranger wannabe types (of whom we unfortunately have to be suspicious), I see such things as a way to evaluate how we might be able to use that member.  At the initial introduction stage, its just fine.  Obviously, at some point we're going to need to see some documentation to back up whatever they say their training or qualifications might be. 

Keep in mind that they may be looking at this somewhat like a job interview and want to let us know some of the things that they're bringing to the table.   They WANT to join CAP and I would hope that everyone thinks that they have something worthwhile to offer. 

[jhsmith400]

I my experience some of these folks come to talk and not to work.  Hey I love a good warstory as much if not way more than the next guy but "what have you done for me lately".

[Spike]

Has anyone else noticed that the more someone talks up their "qualifications", the more those qualifications end up being rather lame or made up?

That is why I choose not to become qualified in anything.......being lame is a full time job!   

[♠SARKID♠]

I'd love to see their reactions when they come to the realization that their spec ops/SEAL skills or whatever won't do them any good when they have to organize that stack of personnel files in their boring new staff position.

[Stonewall]

I actually wasn't thinking about the bogus folks that like to brag, I was thinking of the ones who are actually qualified but like to make sure you know how much we'd benefit by having them in our squadron.

Here's one I got recently:

I am a 30 year old Navy veteran (8 yrs) and currently a Federal Agent with US Customs and Border Protection. I work as a RADAR/sensor operator on the P-3 Orion, PA-42 Cheyenne and helicopters as well. I have my Private Pilots License and currently wish to build time and hours and also help CAP as well. I have flown, and continue to fly, numerous counter-drug missions, SAR, surveillance etc. I have lots of aviation experience and would like to get more information about how to become a senior member but most of all a CAP pilot.

And...

My son is 16 and attends the Aviation Magnet Program at Frank H. Peterson.  He is also in Royal Rangers and earned the Gold Medal of Achievement (the equivalent to the Boys Scouts Eagle Order), runs track and will be taking flying lessons soon.

[jimmydeanno]

You know, it might not be that they're trying to sell themselves as "God's gift to CAP" but just trying to give you some insight into their background and motivation to join. 

I think if I received those, I'd be more comfortable hearing that than "Send me info on CAP."

The ones that I really worry about though are the ones that seem a bit over eager to "work with cadets." or the ones that say, "I was in the Army for 20 years and I think I can instill some discipline in the cadets."

[Strick]

I am very direct, I just tell people to get over them selfs.  Besides Im a MAJOR in the USAF AUX and fly right seat on a C-172     

[capchiro]

Stonewall, I will take the 30 yr. Navy vet and the 16 y.o. cadet.  Both sound good to me.  Both sound motivated and have accomplished a lot.  The military academies look for cadets and youngsters with a lot of credentials and activities to show that they can handle a lot of different things at one time.  I think you are looking at the wrong side of this situation.  Be glad for the opportunity to recruit such potential and then utilize it.  The 30 year Navy vet could make a good counter narcotics or GA8 pilot or Archer operator some day.  The cadet could reach Mitchell by the time he turns 18 with your assistance.  All of our cadets that have earned the Mitchell and have graduated from high school are with the military now.  Send them my way and I will use them.

[Stonewall]

I think you're missing the point. 

I genuinely appreciate all their accomplishments and qualifications.  That's great.  But a young man joining CAP so as to gain another checked box in their academy application, yet barely participate due to other outside activities is of little interest to me.  We've all had those cadets before; the ones who show up to 2 meetings a month or take 3 to 4 month breaks every year to make sure they've gone above and beyond to look marketable to a academy review board.  I want cadets to enjoy CAP, not simply use it.  It's a two way street as far as I am concerned.  You get out what you put in. 

As for the potential senior member, like so many others, his primary reason for possibly joining is to fly.  That's great, but please realize that you're not going to show up and fly on someone else's dime. 

Also, he is a 30 year old who is a Navy veteran, not a 30 year Navy veteran.

Trust me, I don't discourage anyone from joining.  I encourage them to visit our squadron to see us in action and learn more about our program.  But just like the 30 year old Navy veteran, once they learn it's not a matter of joining and flying, they usually go elsewhere.

I'm wondering, as far as pilots are concerned, if the economy has taken a toll on a lot of pilots who are looking for other ways of getting up in the air like joining CAP.

[gistek]

Sir:

Thank you for your interest in our unit of the Civil Air Patrol. I've forwarded your e-mail and resume to our Commander, Deputy Commander for (Seniors/Cadets), and (insert any other officers as needed).

Your military experience would be a big asset to our unit. We are always looking for people who can help our cadets master drill and military customs and courtesies.

We do have an active emergency services program, and can provide much of the training required, including practice with the Incident Command System.

Our cadet s meet every ___day evening from 7 to 9 pm, and our pilots and aircrew meet on the first ___day of every month. You can visit our website at http://www.______.___ for more information on our upcoming events and to see the agenda for our next meeting. We request all prospective members visit three times before committing to join our unit.

I look forward to seeing you at one of our meetings in the near future.

Sincerely
B____ Mc______, Capt, CAP
Unit Webmaster

[LtCol Hooligan]

I actually wasn't thinking about the bogus folks that like to brag, I was thinking of the ones who are actually qualified but like to make sure you know how much we'd benefit by having them in our squadron.

Here's one I got recently:

I am a 30 year old Navy veteran (8 yrs) and currently a Federal Agent with US Customs and Border Protection. I work as a RADAR/sensor operator on the P-3 Orion, PA-42 Cheyenne and helicopters as well. I have my Private Pilots License and currently wish to build time and hours and also help CAP as well. I have flown, and continue to fly, numerous counter-drug missions, SAR, surveillance etc. I have lots of aviation experience and would like to get more information about how to become a senior member but most of all a CAP pilot.

And...

My son is 16 and attends the Aviation Magnet Program at Frank H. Peterson.  He is also in Royal Rangers and earned the Gold Medal of Achievement (the equivalent to the Boys Scouts Eagle Order), runs track and will be taking flying lessons soon.

I actually like both of them as well.  I definately see your point about show offs and the talkers, but could these people be sending you this information because they feel like if they did not you would automatically disqualify them from membership.  Many people do not know much about CAP and may thiink they need to show you why you should take your time to meet with them.  Just a tought.  Oh and by the way, yes they definately could turn out to be BS, but that is why we have them visit a couple meetings prior to joining!!

[Smithsonia]

I've always thought that Level 1 separates the talkers from the doers. When people walk in the door, they don't know us, we don't know them. In a professional relationship a resume is used as a lead item of presentation.

There are many who just want to know what to do and they will accomplish it. After all they are accomplished people. Others just want to know where the plane is and; "hand me the keys, please." Level 1 usually reconciles the matter. Which I've always supposed was it's purpose.

[Pingree1492]

I actually like both of them as well.  I definately see your point about show offs and the talkers, but could these people be sending you this information because they feel like if they did not you would automatically disqualify them from membership.  Many people do not know much about CAP and may thiink they need to show you why you should take your time to meet with them.  Just a tought.  Oh and by the way, yes they definately could turn out to be BS, but that is why we have them visit a couple meetings prior to joining!!

^+1

It may just be that he's excited about the program and wants to join, so he sent you all the reasons why he'd be a good member.  From the inside, yes this is very annoying behavior.  I would reserve judgment though until after you've meet him in person at a meeting.

I've also experienced the folks that want to work with cadets, and are really eager to start, but have some mysterious, "thing" about fingerprinting.  Even showed up to a meeting ready to help out.  He saw the door pretty quick, and I haven't seen/heard from him since.

Like most people have already said, you'll get an idea of what this guy and his son really want from the program when they show up for the first time.  Be sure to fully explain your expectations up front.  If he's just there to fly, he'll disappear fairly quickly, as will his son.  There's nothing wrong with joining "just to fly".  That's what got me in the door- 12 years later I'm still here. 

Best of luck- I'm curious to hear how it turns out after he comes to a meeting.

[WT]

We had a guy join and sent multi-page e-mails about how much he was going to do.  I personally got him through Level 1 quickly so I didn't hold him back from achieving.  Besides multiple hours responding to his e-mails, I also spent 4 hours talking with him as a one-on-one "quick start".  He attended one meeting, and hasn't done anything for the squadron in the six months he's been a member.  Still sends the multi-page e-mails about how he is going to be so useful, though!

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

We had a guy join and sent multi-page e-mails about how much he was going to do.  I personally got him through Level 1 quickly so I didn't hold him back from achieving.  Besides multiple hours responding to his e-mails, I also spent 4 hours talking with him as a one-on-one "quick start".  He attended one meeting, and hasn't done anything for the squadron in the six months he's been a member.  Still sends the multi-page e-mails about how he is going to be so useful, though!

Somebody has to be in the 80 of the 80/20 rule 

[Smokey]

I've seen those who brag and are nothing but full of themselves too.  But the example of the Navy guy may just be someone who doesn't know how easy it is to get into CAP .

By that I mean, when I joined I believed that I had to show that I had some worth to the organization and that they were very selective in who they chose.   He may have believed that he had to present those qualifications that would be considered before he could join.  Having been in for 11+ years now, I've seen some of the folks who have joined and I think at times the standard is...he showed up for three meetings, he breathes and his check didn't bounce.   

I have only seen two folks in all that time who were not permitted to join.  One was a lightweight ding who showed up 4 hours before the meeting wearing a funky half security guard uniform adorned with various buttons and pins from different military branches.  He was so fidgety he had to step out of the meeting every few minutes to light up another cig.

The other was a CFI/FAA safety counselor who dropped out of CAP several years before due to questionable flying practices.

[wuzafuzz]

Wow.  Why automatically assume people listing their qualifications are show offs?  For all you know they are actually humble individuals who assume they have to "show the money" for anyone to be interested in them.  Unless your website says you don't want that kind of information, I'd cut them a little slack.

As for judging their motivations, I ask "who cares?"  Why get all wrapped around the axle if they occasionally contribute and don't do any harm?  I know a few know-it-all types who are valuable members.  We may get tired of listening to them but the return on investment is worthwhile.

[heliodoc]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Yep  just like SOME of the know-it-alls on the CAP Talk forum

I may even be considered one of those guys

There are NO cookie cutter types in CAP.  In a volunteer organization, which I know is a term of which some here, think is an abhorrence (sp).  Gotta face folks, that's what CAP is....a volunteer organization which gets a mix of people.  Some are BIG talkers and alot of us are formerly military.  But we are prone, just like any other organization of getting anyone with any "kind of background"

Be happy with the personnel you got..  There are times CAP occupies more time than the regular 40 hr week AND in CAP PLENTY Does NOT get done in CAP nor sometime on time

Wuzzafuzz is on point for all you professional CAP HR types

[Stonewall]

Wow! You assume that I am pre-judging and stereotyping.  I am not talking about the folks who do actually show up and contribute to the program.  Obviously those folks are welcomed and encouraged.

My point is that while I appreciate your (their) achievements, accomplishments, qualifications and experience, please stop by so we can explain our program to make sure we're a fit for you and you're a fit for us.  You assume that I just blow these folks off and you're wrong.   However, I find it extremely frustrating when these same people whom I discussed earlier come in and tell me how wonderful they are and how much they can do for CAP yet never return or more often than not, are turned off by the fact they can't show up with their own set of quals and quickly be flying our aircraft or be granted Major without having to go through the steps.

While I have experienced these types of people throughout the years, it's just popped up rather frequently in the past few months.  Just a little aggravating to spend a good amount of time with someone and then end up with nothing.

[lordmonar]

I don't care why someone joins CAP.

If a cadet joins just to get another box filled for his college applications or a senior member joins to get an EPR bullet (for AD USAF types), access to cheap/free flying, a chance to wear the unfirom and be an 'officer' or just because it feeds their ego.

I'll take their money just like everyone else.

What I care about is what they put into and get out of the organisation.

[jimmydeanno]

UK,

I hope you didn't take my initial post as being judgmental.  Just to clarify, if you look at it from the other end (joining member) I tend to see the situation a little differently.

A person, interested in joining, sees that we are The United States Air Force Auxiliary and that we have the "largest fleet of privately owned single-engine aircraft in the world" with a volunteer force of "64,000 members nationwide in over 1,500 units."  It might seem intimidating, selective, etc.

They might also have the assumption that it is like AmeriCorps, US RangerCorps ( ) where only a select number of people are accepted.

I think if I were in their same shoes, I would do the same thing.  I'm impressed, I want to increase my chances of a) actually being contacted b) be taken seriously c) show some things that I can offer to the unit (which many people complain about anyway).  So I draft up a quick resume and say, "Hi I'm Jimmy.  I'm interested in joining the Civil Air Patrol, here's why...I think I would be a good fit because..."  Standard job application stuff.

In all honesty, my squadron has a nifty little online form that people can fill out on our website that submits their information to us.  One of them is a "how did you hear about us." and a "Why do you want to join?"

Many of those illicit responses like, "I'm a Navy Veteran who has been looking for an opportunity to get back into uniform and help people." to "I'm a sophomore in high-school and I am interested in joining the Air Force.  The recruiter told me this would be a good idea."

Usually when they show up, we'll start talking about their experiences, etc.  If they gave me a pretty detailed list beforehand I can usually have a few talking points prepared, suggested areas to look at, etc.

But I, like you, have had many people show up that talk the talk but can't walk the walk.  There definitely are people who want to join simply to put another check mark on their accomplishment list.  They join and they're gone a year later.  I'm getting pretty good at picking them out. 

Even if someone does send me the five page resume, I usually give them the benefit of the doubt until I need to otherwise.  Hasn't really failed me yet.

[Flying Pig]

^I have had the same experience as jimmy.  The potential members I have met that have provided resumes and have talked a lot about their experiences have all been under the impression that getting into CAP was a highly competitive, and were approaching it as a job interview.  Many believed CAP was to good to be true, and that it must be impossible to get into.
I have no issue with someone telling me who they are and what they are about.  I don't want you sitting around for 6 months being "humble" and find out later you had a skill we needed.  Most of the organizations I have been a part of require you to lay it all out on the table with verifications as one of the first steps.  Then, we come to CAP and your tagged a show off because nobody wants to talk to you until you've completed Level 1.  I've even seen solid, very qualified members ridiculed for completing ES tasks "to soon".  Although they demonstrated complete competency.  A member stated, "I think he should have just waited longer between sign offs.  Im never working with them." 
Thats why I want to know who you are.  So when someone comes in and says "Why was SM XXXX made the Group Communications Officer when hes only been in 1 year?"  I can say, well, because he was a Special Forces radio operator and now owns his own communications company that designs repeaters.  Any other questions?

Now, telling me who you are and what your about, EVERY meeting night.....thats a different story.

[wuzafuzz]

Wow! You assume that I am pre-judging and stereotyping.  I am not talking about the folks who do actually show up and contribute to the program.  Obviously those folks are welcomed and encouraged.

My point is that while I appreciate your (their) achievements, accomplishments, qualifications and experience, please stop by so we can explain our program to make sure we're a fit for you and you're a fit for us.  You assume that I just blow these folks off and you're wrong.

Well, one of your posts did make an example of the email from a mom, received "just yesterday."  Presumably that youngster has not yet had the opportunity to attend a few meetings and demonstrate his true intent.  You did state your belief they are listing their qualifications in an effort to impress someone.  Some other posters made similar statements.  My point to everyone, not just you, is there may be other reasons for doing that.

Did I say you just blow them off?  No.  Since I didn't make that point I'm pretty certain I can't be wrong about it.  What I did do was comment on statements that made it into print.  (I apparently earned a -1 in my reputation score for doing so.  Curious.  (Need more facts about those scores.))

You are absolutely correct that prospective members should attend a few meetings and get a feel for things before taking the membership plunge.  Also, they should be expected to contribute in some way instead of merely mooching.  If they are merely interested in showing off, and prove it through their actions, then lock 'n load.

It appears we agree on more than we disagree.

[Stonewall]

It appears we agree on more than we disagree.

Agreed.

[flyguy06]

So, do you guys actually turn people away from joining your squadron. In my 24 years in CAP I dont think my Squadron Commander has ever denied anyone membership. It may be a good idea. but I have just never seen it.

Also, do you guys require members to be involved in Emergency Services?

[EMT-83]

I think of it as more of a vetting process than turning someone away. Sometimes it's better to say, "Thanks, but no thanks" after meeting someone. And yes, I've done it.

[Cecil DP]

So, do you guys actually turn people away from joining your squadron. In my 24 years in CAP I dont think my Squadron Commander has ever denied anyone membership. It may be a good idea. but I have just never seen it.

Also, do you guys require members to be involved in Emergency Services?

In all this discussion I haven't read one word about the Unit Membership Board. This group (which is mandatory in every unit), should be reviewing prospective and renewing members so that you don't have these problems that are being discussed.

[jimmydeanno]

So, do you guys actually turn people away from joining your squadron. In my 24 years in CAP I dont think my Squadron Commander has ever denied anyone membership. It may be a good idea. but I have just never seen it.

Also, do you guys require members to be involved in Emergency Services?

I've had people turned away for not meeting eligibility criteria, or they weren't someone we wanted around.  For example, we had a gentleman that told us he was arrested 40 years prior for trying to bring child pornography back to the US from Germany.  Uhh...no thanks!

But, no, I've never turned away anyone that wanted to join and met the criteria.  We put the same effort in trying to get people started for everyone, regardless of their skills or experience.  We owe them all at least a fair chance.

Now, that doesn't mean that someone's membership hasn't been terminated.  Sometimes you need to throw out the bad apple before the people who you really need there decide its not worth the hassle.  But, I've only been witness to three or four  terminations for cause in the time I've been in CAP.

But, it works out for some, doesn't for others - which is ok, not everyone is cut out for CAP. 

As for requiring people to be involved in ES?  Nope, we don't do that either.  Some people physically can't, some people mentally can't, some people just don't want to.  In all honesty, I don't want people who don't want to be there.  Isn't that one of the reasons for our non-compulsory military service?  Your corps becomes stronger and more efficient when everyone has a desire to be there?  Our non-compulsory ES program has my unit with plenty of ES rated folks. 

[es_g0d]

In general, almost anyone can bring something to CAP.  They can be a soccer Mom or a retired General or anything else.  Its a volunteer organization, so unless you've done such an excellent job of leading your squadron that you don't need ANY more resources, well, then it usually a good idea to allow most folks to join!

ALMOST everyone.  I was just speaking with a friend today who relayed a story about an individual who wished to join, in the hopes of working with cadets.  There was no proof of cadet protection issues, but some strong suspicions.  That particular squadron commander decided that the individual likely had little to give to the cadet program, and politely sent him in another direction.

I find it interesting that the only two "resumes" that were posted in this thread were considered possible "showing off."  I didn't take that away from them at all, provided they're both truthful (which they appear to be).  Instead, I think they were both from busy people who are used to accomplishing things, and they think they're joining an organization of peers.  I would hope that they are not wrong!  This is particularly true if the resume is semi-private.  If a prospective member were to come in and post his or her past and inflated accomplishments on the bulletin board, that would be another story.

In general, I prefer a different approach.  I like to check out a new (to me) CAP squadron by dressing in streetclothes and attending a regular meeting.  I figure that the reception I get will probably be representative of any new potential member.  I have found it to be an excellent gauge, and have chosen my participation levels with particular wings based on that snapshot.  Keep this in mind, folks, I'm certain I'm not the only person who will "test" you!  If you don't pass the test, you probably aren't going to recruit top-notch people.

[AlphaSigOU]

In all this discussion I haven't read one word about the Unit Membership Board. This group (which is mandatory in every unit), should be reviewing prospective and renewing members so that you don't have these problems that are being discussed.

Exactimundo! We're not using the UMB enough to do the initial screening of members... sometimes (and my own squadron is to blame as well) we're too focused on getting the quantity and not quality.

[RiverAux]

I see little use for such boards unless there is some evidence somewhere that shows that they are an effective way of screening for people that are actually going to show a committment to the organization in some fashion.  How a board is going to be able to do that without any real knowledge or experience with a person is beyond me.  Since it costs very little to let them join, it is easier to let them join and if they drop out after six months, no harm done. 

[EMT-83]

I think of it as more of a vetting process than turning someone away. Sometimes it's better to say, "Thanks, but no thanks" after meeting someone. And yes, I've done it.

Clarification - it's the Unit Membership Board speaking, not me personally. We do take the time to interview every prospective member. It's a two-way street; they might not be a good fit for the squadron, or the squadron might not be a good fit for them.

[Cecil DP]

I see little use for such boards unless there is some evidence somewhere that shows that they are an effective way of screening for people that are actually going to show a committment to the organization in some fashion.  How a board is going to be able to do that without any real knowledge or experience with a person is beyond me.  Since it costs very little to let them join, it is easier to let them join and if they drop out after six months, no harm done.

Would you hire someone who walked in off the street without an interview? While the UMB is a requirement, the process can be as easy as an informal chat with the prospective member by one or two people. As far as the effectiveness of the board, if you're not using it, how can you tell. When you accept the new member in the belief that he's only going to stay for 6 months-there is harm done. The UMB is there to ensure that that member knows what he is getting-and for the unit to know what they are getting. If it's evident that your unit would not be a good fit, you can at least refer him to another unit that may be more fitting for him.   Rather than wasting his time, and money, and your resources.

[es_g0d]

I like this thought, Cecil.  More and more, I think we as CAP members should consider ourselves "unpaid employees" just as much as volunteers.  That lends well to "hiring..."

[RiverAux]

Like I said, show me some evidence that it is better than what I've seen done.  1st year retention rates in units that do it vs units that don't.  Are units that subjectively reject membership applications better off than those that pretty much let anyone join after attending af few meetings?