What the AF thinks of CAP

[JayT]

That kind of attitude is frequently directed toward volunteers, especially those who fall under any agency with "real" responders.  Some SDF's, reserve cops, firefighters, and EMT's are often treated like "red-headed step-children" by the paid folks they supplement or work with.  (It's really bad when volunteers are perceived as a threat to full-time jobs.)  Sometimes all volunteers are suspect until they prove themselves.  The rest of the time the "real" folks are the birds, and the volunteers are the statues.  To some level it just comes with the territory.  As usual, YMMV.

Absent a coherent marketing strategy at the national level, we need to make the most of every opportunity to prove ourselves.  We won't win everyone over, but those we impress might spread the word.  The people who see us behaving badly certainly do.

I kinda have to call 'bull' on a lot of that.

First off, in most area's I hardly think that the 'SDF' belongs in the same sentence as Auxiliary Police Officers, Volunteer Fire dawgs, and volly EMS types.

Auxiliary police officers, at least we're I'm from, are respected for what they do, but they're not 'un paid cops.' They don't carry, they don't arrest. They're auxilary cops.

Where I am, except for some parts of Western Nassau County, all of the Fire types are vollys, and many of the vollys are also either current or retired FDNY guys.

The EMS system is many areas is becoming paid. So, you'll gave a paid Paramedic or EMT-CC in a fly car either ony duty on his own, or with a pair of EMT-B's. This is simply because the volunteer's can't get out during the day.

However, we're the bull really needs to be called, is that in many systems (such as mine) it's the paid private EMT's who are really the red headed children. As a paid guy, I get more shots from volunteer EMT's then any other.

So, basically, every system is different, and comparing CAP to any other systems or agencies is difficult at best.

[A.Member]

Perhaps stories like this can help provide us with some legitmacy where it counts:

'Training takes over' for Guard pilots chasing Cessna

"When you hear the words 'Real World' coming over the loudspeaker, there's going to be a little more adrenaline flowing than there would be if it were practice," Lt. Col. Bruce Fischer, commander of the air sovereignty alert with the 115th Fighter Wing in Madison told Gannett Wisconsin Media on Tuesday. "We train for this kind of thing all the time.  We do regular exercises using Civil Air Patrol Cessnas pretending to be guys like this gentleman."

Probably a good enough quote/article to be worthy of it's own thread. 

[cap235629]

JThemann,

You live in a unique area.  Where I live, ALL police officers carry firearms, make arrests, investigate accidents, and an Auxiliary Officer may very well be the only officer in town at any given time.  The terms Auxiliary/Reserve are interchangeable.  Some jurisdictions they ride second man in the car, others they are assigned a beat.  Many reserve officers also serve on SWAT and SRT teams. They are prohibited by law from being paid and running RADAR or LIDAR for reasons that would take forever to address, but otherwise are not limited in their authority, and do a heck of a job.

95% of the fire service in Arkansas are unpaid volunteers. And most of the full time guys also serve on volunteer departments.

EMS is tiered.  In an area serviced by a volunteer Fire Department, volunteer first responders (most of whom are EMT's) are paged at the same time the Ambulance (99% ALS) is dispatched.  The only difference with a full time paid fire department is the district engine company is dispatched instead of volunteer first responders.

I am originally from Massachusetts and understand what "auxiliary" means up north but for the record I was an "auxiliary" officer who carried a firearm and had to maintain the same training standards as a reserve/intermittent/part time police officer.  I had arrest authority (though somewhat limited) and was treated like a red headed step child.

In my next lesson I will discuss constables 

Seriously though New York and the rest of the Land of the Lost does not reflect the reality in the majority of the country.

Just keep an open mind.....

[JayT]

Excuse me Lieutenant, New York isn't the Land of the Lost, it's all of that land to the West, North, and South of us that is!

Kidding of course.

Okay Lou, I'll buy that. Point taken.

[wuzafuzz]

That kind of attitude is frequently directed toward volunteers, especially those who fall under any agency with "real" responders.  Some SDF's, reserve cops, firefighters, and EMT's are often treated like "red-headed step-children" by the paid folks they supplement or work with.  (It's really bad when volunteers are perceived as a threat to full-time jobs.)  Sometimes all volunteers are suspect until they prove themselves.  The rest of the time the "real" folks are the birds, and the volunteers are the statues.  To some level it just comes with the territory.  As usual, YMMV.

Absent a coherent marketing strategy at the national level, we need to make the most of every opportunity to prove ourselves.  We won't win everyone over, but those we impress might spread the word.  The people who see us behaving badly certainly do.

I kinda have to call 'bull' on a lot of that.

First off, in most area's I hardly think that the 'SDF' belongs in the same sentence as Auxiliary Police Officers, Volunteer Fire dawgs, and volly EMS types.

Auxiliary police officers, at least we're I'm from, are respected for what they do, but they're not 'un paid cops.' They don't carry, they don't arrest. They're auxilary cops.

Where I am, except for some parts of Western Nassau County, all of the Fire types are vollys, and many of the vollys are also either current or retired FDNY guys.

The EMS system is many areas is becoming paid. So, you'll gave a paid Paramedic or EMT-CC in a fly car either ony duty on his own, or with a pair of EMT-B's. This is simply because the volunteer's can't get out during the day.

However, we're the bull really needs to be called, is that in many systems (such as mine) it's the paid private EMT's who are really the red headed children. As a paid guy, I get more shots from volunteer EMT's then any other.

So, basically, every system is different, and comparing CAP to any other systems or agencies is difficult at best.

As I said, YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary).  What you call "bull" is reality in many places whether it compares with your experience or not.  My comments were not presented as universal fact, but are accurate and relevant in my experience.  As mentioned in the previous post, "just keep an open mind."

[Earhart1971]

I came across this today on www.afforums.com.

Discussion:  Saluting Civil Air Patrol Officers

They're "real military", be advised, there is big boy language...

The Regular Air Force should be careful with this. CAP has a lot of veterans, combat veterans, Purple Hearts and such, just to out of hand say "no I am not going to salute a CAP Officer" is a little over the top. I know of one retired Air Force General that is a CAP Captain now.

[JayT]

I came across this today on www.afforums.com.

Discussion:  Saluting Civil Air Patrol Officers

They're "real military", be advised, there is big boy language...

The Regular Air Force should be careful with this. CAP has a lot of veterans, combat veterans, Purple Hearts and such, just to out of hand say "no I am not going to salute a CAP Officer" is a little over the top. I know of one retired Air Force General that is a CAP Captain now.

So do a lot of Active Duty folks.........does a Purple Heart automatically warrant a salute? Does combat service automatically warrant a salute? Does an Air Force General wearing CAP Captains bars warrant a salute? Not to put down the achievements of a lot of good men and women, but to say that 'the Real Air Force should be careful" about something like saluting our folks on the off chance they might be a former four star Medal of Honor Winner who once frought in Vietnam is just silly, and exactly the kind of attitude that leads to negative views of us.

Regulations are regulations. Senses of entitlement don't factor into that.'

Maybe our members wearing military badges, wings, and ribbons is a much better idea then I used to think.

[Earhart1971]

As an Air Force Veteran I am a little ashamed of the attitude on that thread.

[PHall]

As an Air Force Veteran I am a little ashamed of the attitude on that thread.

You gotta remember who's posting on that thread. Kids (i.e. 18 and fresh out of Lackland) and people with an axe to grind.

And if you think they don't like CAP, just read what they say about pilots and enlisted flyers.

They're nowhere near any kind of majority, just a few folks with a chip or two on their shoulder.

[JK657]

I respect everyone's service for without their sacrifice we would not be here (or at least we'd be speaking another language)

1. However, that service alone does not rate a salute.

2. When a retired military officer joins CAP and is operating in a CAP capacity they fall under CAP regs. This means they are not required to be saluted by junior officers or enlisted. If said General throws on his regular uniform, say at a the 4th of July parade and I encounter him I'll toss one out.

[flyguy06]

Saluting has NOTHING to do wih the person. You arenot saluting theperson. youare saluting the rank and reconizing the person's achievements. There are many officers that out rank me that i think are a holes and not that bright. But I repsect their rank.

Its not about the individual person. its about their rank. I try to teach this to young soldiers daily. Dont look at saluting and being subserviant. its not about that. Its not about honoring a person. its about honroing the rank because that is a tradition that we have done for some 200 plus years.

[JK657]

I agree to a point... we do salute the rank. However, we do not salute fire captains, police lieutenants, majors in the salvation army,etc. Insignia alone is not what is saluted. its the position of a commissioned officer (or warrant) in one of the uniformed services of the United States or its allies.

Robert Redford gives a great speech about saluting in the movie "The Last Castle"

[es_g0d]

The salute is nothing more than a formal military greeting.

I find it more conspicuous by its absence than when it is rendered.

[ZigZag911]

Oddly enough, I've been saluted by AF personnel (security police, E-5 & 6), coming out of a dining facility wearing gray & whites...on McGuire AFB, where NJW has had its HQ for nearly 30 years, as well as a CAP squadron based there....I do not look like "Real Military", middle aged and rather big.

It wasn't that they knew me, I'm only down there twice or three times a year; nor was it the fact that I'm field grade....my own theory was that these NCOs had prior good experiences dealing with CAP members, and this was how they expressed it.

Frankly, it's somewhat embarrassing receiving a salute from RM folks, since  they are the ones making the sacrifices and going in harm's way...but if it's a sign that CAP is making a positive impression on at least some in our parent service, then that's a good thing, in my view.

[Stonewall]

Oddly enough, being a current senior member and former cadet; and a military member, I have willingly saluted CAP Officers, Sea Cadet Officers and State Defense Force officers.  Purely out of courtesy and respect.

I'm guessing they appreciate it.

[JoeTomasone]

I've worked with many of the AD folks at MacDill and have yet to be treated much differently than they treat each other.   Some understand CAP and its missions, others do not.   Some ask what we are and what we do, many do not.    Quite frankly, it's about what I expect.    I've yet to encounter anyone who wasn't courteous, respectful, and polite.   Most render salutes even though they are not required (and I suspect many do not know that they are not required).    If any of them hold dim views of CAP in private, they certainly do not let it show - they are professionals throughout.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

I came across this today on www.afforums.com.

Discussion:  Saluting Civil Air Patrol Officers

They're "real military", be advised, there is big boy language...

The Regular Air Force should be careful with this. CAP has a lot of veterans, combat veterans, Purple Hearts and such, just to out of hand say "no I am not going to salute a CAP Officer" is a little over the top. I know of one retired Air Force General that is a CAP Captain now.

Why isn't he a light colonel? Prior-military folks carry their real grade, up to O-5, so said general should be wearing oak leaves.

[MIKE]

The key word is may.

[jimmydeanno]

Maybe he just doesn't care, he is an astronaut after all...

[flyguy06]

I've worked with many of the AD folks at MacDill and have yet to be treated much differently than they treat each other.   Some understand CAP and its missions, others do not.   Some ask what we are and what we do, many do not.    Quite frankly, it's about what I expect.    I've yet to encounter anyone who wasn't courteous, respectful, and polite.   Most render salutes even though they are not required (and I suspect many do not know that they are not required).    If any of them hold dim views of CAP in private, they certainly do not let it show - they are professionals throughout.

again, youare comparing older more mature air force people with 18 and 19 year old airmen. of course they arent going to disrespect you to your face. they know better than that. But I am sure when the 19 year old airmen get togeher amongst themselves. they talk. You were young once right?