Social (drinking) functions around cadets

[LtCol White]

I'm not saying there should be open season on functions and alcohol with cadets but I don't see anything wrong with a social mixer at something like a Wing Conference where the seniors have a drink before or after dinner. Most cadets are exposed to drinking at home and outside with friends in some form. In the proper setting, this can be seen as setting the example of drinking responsibly and that you can have a good time without getting hammered. Making drinking seem something akin to watching a porn film in a smoke filled backroom REALLY sets the wrong example. Afterall, they can go to most any restaurant and sit at a table next to adults who are drinking and getting sloppy drunk. Applebees, Chilis, Mexican places...etc.

[arajca]

It is far more professional to have an iced tea than a beer at social gatherings.  AND Cheaper!  Don't want to be labeled as a DRUNK, ALCHY, or boozer!

Not to mention the fun one can have watching the overindulgers make complete - or ven incomplete - follos of them selves AND being able to remind them of it at a later date.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Stonewall:

I know you mentioned it, but nobody commented on it, and nobody followed it up.

This happens a lot, and I really don't have all the answers.

You could... Leave, but then you would look anti-social.

You could... Tell the officers to take their children/cadets home, in which case you still appear anti-social.

You could... Suggest that the cadet/children occupy another table where they can eat their burger and drink their soft drinks.  This might be the best option.

Your point of "Special access" to officers is valid, but it seems to be unavoidable in the CAP environment.  After all, the kid LIVES with one of the officers!

[ELTHunter]

Afterall, they can go to most any restaurant and sit at a table next to adults who are drinking and getting sloppy drunk. Applebees, Chilis, Mexican places...etc.

Brings up a good point.  When I took over as Deputy Commander for Cadets several years ago, ,my predecessor had traditionally gone to Applebees or Ruby Tuesday's with the cadet staff after the weekly meeting.  These dinners were social to some extent and planning meetings to some extent.  When I took over, I felt a little uncomfortable doing that, so I've only done it occasionally.  Neither nor anyone in the group would drink anything, but I just didn't want to cross that line into fraternization while still getting to know the kids as people.

So was that appropriate???

[LittleIronPilot]

Wow...so social drinking is now equated with the most vial of "sins"?

I understand and respect what some are saying in respect to drinking at cadet activities...but alcohol is NOT evil, it has been a part of the human experience for a very long time.

How come in most of Europe drinking and alcohol are just a non-issue, kids drink from a young age, and yet their rates of alcoholism are less than ours per capita? Sometimes I think making something "verbotan" just makes people more apt to do it and go off the deep end.

[Major Lord]

Wow...so social drinking is now equated with the most vial of "sins"?

Right you are! I think we need to order Cadets to have no contact with any obese senior members, since obesity is far more dangerous to Cadets than alcohol! These porky Seniors set a bad example to our cadets, and just the very sight of them helps to validate the gluttonous life style! And ban running with scissors....we should ban that too, and , and, looking at eclipses without the proper gear, and , and , and, and......

The 2B form identifies "Moral Turpitude" as a cause for termination. Surely alcoholism would count? (BTW, didn't they used to have a category for "perversion" on that form? )

Major Lord

[Stonewall]

You could... Suggest that the cadet/children occupy another table where they can eat their burger and drink their soft drinks.  This might be the best option.

Agreed, think that is the best option.

Break.

I don't think anyone here is saying alcohol is evil or sinful.  If that were the case, how come it bring the best out of me 

[ZigZag911]

Chaplain Don is entirely correct that it is absolutely wrong for any SM to give a cadet alcohol (i.e., 'a social drink').

CAP expects much of its officers, and even more of its chaplains....I would have no qualms about having such an individual's membership terminated.

Given the presence of cadets at banquets and other official celebrations, it is probably unrealistic to ban consumption of alcohol by officers....however, there ought to be more emphasis on appropriate conduct by CAP officers in official and social circumstances.

[NIN]

To suggest that SMs intoxicating cadets is within CPPT guidelines is potentially dangerous.

My apologies, Chaplain, I took your original statement out of context and did not catch the background completely (curse you, Red Baron, for my 1600 wpm reading speed. Occasionally I miss a thing or two).  I stand well corrected, sir.

I will agree: SMs should not, under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, be facilitating cadet drinking in any way, shape or form (sacraments  notwithstanding, of course!).   Were I to find one of my officers doing so, he/she would be suspended pending the investigation that would ultimately lead to termination per CAPR 35-3.  And so quickly their head would spin.  Period.

[NIN]

How come in most of Europe drinking and alcohol are just a non-issue, kids drink from a young age, and yet their rates of alcoholism are less than ours per capita? Sometimes I think making something "verbotan" just makes people more apt to do it and go off the deep end.

Can you provide hard data on that per capita claim?  I have heard from Europeans nearly the opposite: that alcoholism rates are up.  I would be curious to see apples-to-apples data to compare to.

[Stonewall]

Hey Nin, remember that time at Lynch's Irish Pub in Jax Beach.  There were zero cadets there, but almost all were former cadets...  I hope I didn't contribute to the delinquency of those former cadets.   

[Stonewall]

Here's a report put out by the US DOJ about US drinking vs European.

In short, US has fewer problems, specifically with our youth and alcohol.

http://www.udetc.org/documents/CompareDrinkRate.pdf

Summary of the report:

Recent data from representative surveys provide no evidence
that young Europeans drink more responsibly than
their counterparts in the United States.

* A greater percentage of young people from nearly
all European countries in the survey report drinking
in the past 30 days.

*For a majority of these European countries, a
greater percentage of young people report having
five or more drinks in a row compared to U.S. 10th
graders. Only for Turkey did a lower percentage of
young people report this behavior.

*A great majority of the European countries in the
survey had higher prevalence rates for selfreported
intoxication than the United States, less
than a quarter had lower rates, and less than a
quarter had rates that were more or less the same
as the United States.

[flyguy06]

Cadets see drinking around their parents. What is the problem with drinking responsibly around cadets? I do no tdrink alcohol at all so for me it is a non issue, but I dont see the problem. I mean cadets are not stupid. They know adults drink. They know adults can get drunk. Half of cadets have older brothers and sisters in college.

Just because you drinkin front of a cadet youare not introducing them to some bad sinful world. They had a brain before they joined CAP

[Stonewall]

Cadets see drinking around their parents. What is the problem with drinking responsibly around cadets? I do no tdrink alcohol at all so for me it is a non issue, but I dont see the problem. I mean cadets are not stupid. They know adults drink. They know adults can get drunk. Half of cadets have older brothers and sisters in college.

Just because you drinkin front of a cadet youare not introducing them to some bad sinful world. They had a brain before they joined CAP

Here's my thinking of your post.

I've got a former cadet of mine that is now an Army 1st Lt with 82nd Airborne leading an infantry platoon in Iraq.  It's been 7 years since he was a CAP cadet and in a letter he wrote to me from Iraq he spoke of several things he learned directly from me over more than 6 years as a cadet.  These are positive things.  Obviously, to him, I was a mentor and someone he looked up to and quite possibly mimicked my actions.  I'm sure, through the eyes of many cadets, I was (and still am) "square".  These cadets are intelligent, street smart and often well-rounded.  That does not mean they aren't impressionable and incapable of negative influence.  If the cadet I described above saw me drinking when he was 16, it may have impacted him adversely.  Not saying that it would, but it could.  Especially if their home life is not so great and "Lt Col Bowden is the only positive role model the young cadet emulates".  It happens, I know it does and cadets copy their leaders, especially if they think they're the "bomb".

It's kind of like the senior member all the cadets like that shows up wearing a boonie cap in the dead of winter with no sun to speak of.  All of the sudden, you've got 10 cadets showing up with boonies on their grapes.  Yeah, I'd say we have a bigger influence on these bright young cadets than a lot of people realize.

[NIN]

Hey Nin, remember that time at Lynch's Irish Pub in Jax Beach.  There were zero cadets there, but almost all were former cadets...  I hope I didn't contribute to the delinquency of those former cadets.   

OMG, brother. We need to get back there.  Next time I'm in FLA for some jumping, I'll make the time to come to Jax.

[Eclipse]

...looking at eclipses without the proper gear...

HEY!   

[Eclipse]

CAP spends a fair amount of ca$h on DDR collateral, which included alcohol abuse, and then cadets see
their senior leaders sitting in a bar.  Mixed messages to say the least.

I don't think seniors should drink in front of cadets, period.  We're supposed to be setting the example, not
perpetuating the norm. Is one night or week going to kill anyone?

With that said, a glass of wine or beer with dinner, or used for the toast at a banquet isn't  big deal, but what disappoints me to almost no end are these seniors who make the whole point of a wing conference, encampment, national training event, etc., the time spent in the hotel bar, strip club, etc.

There are way too many senior who broadcast in "clear-channel stereotype" about being away from the "ball and chain".  Its ridiculous - married adults who act like college students the minute they are away from home.

[Stonewall]

Its ridiculous - married adults who act like college students the minute they are away from home.

My wife ain't no ball and chain.  She's the coolest adult that acts like a college student you could ever meet.  Former bar tender and president of youth soccer association.  Like me, she knows when and where to act appropriately in front of our nation's youth.

[spaatzmom]

I agree that limited social drinking is at most reasonable in limited settings.  What I have a problem with is when cadets cannot avoid being put in that setting as cadets.  Is it really that important to officers to have that drink at a conference knowing that cadets are in full view?  If so, then shouldn't they the officers, be a bit more concerned about why they have to have it at all?  The biggest problem with social drinking at such functions, is when the cadet has no choice but to get in the car with the escort and or parent who has been drinking, no matter how much they have had.  I see huge legal fees incurred by CAP should any cadet be involved in an accident coming home from a meeting, group banquet, or conference after any drinking by officers.  It is bad enough when they are held as a captive audience of these members that hit the bar after any function, who are supposed to be taking responsibility for the cadets safety and welfare; but when it goes to the next step of an accident waiting to happen, there is where the line should be drawn deeply in the sand.  NO.

[DogCollar]

CAP spends a fair amount of ca$h on DDR collateral, which included alcohol abuse, and then cadets see
their senior leaders sitting in a bar.  Mixed messages to say the least.As long as DDR is a part of the CAP mission, I would have no problem saying no alcohol at ANY CAP event.  Sending a "mixed message" is a nice way of putting it.  I would say we should walk the walk as SM's, not just talk the talk.

I don't think seniors should drink in front of cadets, period.  We're supposed to be setting the example, not
perpetuating the norm. Is one night or week going to kill anyone?

With that said, a glass of wine or beer with dinner, or used for the toast at a banquet isn't  big deal, but what disappoints me to almost no end are these seniors who make the whole point of a wing conference, encampment, national training event, etc., the time spent in the hotel bar, strip club, etc.A toast can also be made with water, iced tea, soft drinks, etc...

There are way too many senior who broadcast in "clear-channel stereotype" about being away from the "ball and chain".  Its ridiculous - married adults who act like college students the minute they are away from home.

To me, this type of activity moves well beyond acceptability.  It is indeed hypocritical to mandate moral leadership exposure for cadets, and then have senior members model the exact opposite type of behavior.  I, for one, believe that as far as modeling "responsible drinking" that is the role of parents.  Period.  That is not a role model for any senior member.  Period.  That's my .02  Sorry about getting up in my pulpit.  I guess I must have strong feelings about this subject.  I'm sorry if I am offending anyone.