Social (drinking) functions around cadets

[Stonewall]

Don't know how we turned a gear discussion in the ES forum into a drinking discussion, but perhaps we should discuss this.

On more than a few occasions, I've been to CAP functions that hosted a social drinking hour either before or after the main event.  From wing conferences to award banquets, alcohol has been served to seniors in the presence of cadets more times than I can count and it seems okay.

Is this bad?  Should it be forbidden?  Is it cool as long as the cadets don't see you drink?

At one squadron, we met at the American Legion, a huge one.  Two stories with a bar on the ground floor.  While we met upstairs, our files and equipment locker were downstairs, requiring us to constantly walk through the smoke-filled bar area.  Obviously we restricted most cadets from going through there, but sometimes they had to.  Heck, even had a couple parents stay at the bar while their cadets were upstairs for two hours.  And of course, the Post Commander always gave us tokens for free drinks so we'd often find ourselves hanging out talking to the old time vets after the meeting.  The bad thing, I think, is when several of the seniors who had cadets in the squadron would stay, making their cadet sit in the bar watching seniors drink.  When this happened, I'd drink a coke and manage to "close it down" rather quickly, saying I had an early day the next day.

Thoughts?

[mikeylikey]

I look at it as........soon enough these Cadets (children) will be of drinking age.  If we demonstrate restraint and coach them on the benefits of a sober life, then we have done good.   I have no problem with alcohol being served at CAP functions.  I do have a problem with an Officer having more than 2 SOCIAL drinks.  2 beers in 3 hours is enough, as is 2 mixed drinks.  Anything more is excessive. 

[RogueLeader]

Last I checked, it IS forbidden, I forget where it is in the regs, but IIRC, it is there.

[Chaplaindon]

I for one believe it to be inappropriate for SMs to drink either in the presence of cadets or at cadet functions. Here's why ...

1.  It communicates a dangerous message that one needs to consume alcohol in order to socialize or have a "good time." Binge drinking by teens and young adults is an alarming epidemic, associating drink with socializing only encourages such behavior.

2.  It "normalizes" drinking ... helps remove any stigma that drinking might have. Frankly, I'd like to see much more stigma upon underage drinking and other youthful activities (e.g. sexuality, etc.).

3.  SMs at CAP functions have, at least, a tacit responsibility for our cadets. Drink will impede judgement and hurt one's ability to supervise.

4.  Excessive consumption of ETOH can lead to "conduct unbecoming" a SM and bring discredit upon the CAP and oneself.

5.  I would add too, that ETOH consumption renders the drinker incapable of operational response. I know of a WG conference during which a REDCAP came in and a sober flight crew ("8 hrs bottle to throttle") couldn't be found. That's shameful.

Sobriety, at least, at cadet functions and in the presence of cadets SHOULD be the rule.

[Flying Pig]

Alcohol has no place where cadets are present.  

[Skyray]

I'm going to have to weigh in with Aaron.  I donated my book of regs to an impoverished squadron, but I clearly remember a prohibition against drinking in the presence of cadets.  It is all well and good to speak of responsible drinking, but there are some members that seem incapable of it.  One Region Commander of my recollection was discussed extensively by the cadets on their return from Wing Conference, not only for his rather obvious impairment, but for his use of the n--- word in reference to some of them within their range of hearing.

[MIKE]

Don't know how we turned a gear discussion in the ES forum into a drinking discussion, but perhaps we should discuss this.

Unfortunately the posting populace here has a tendency to get a bit too chatty, and as such has difficulty staying on topic.

On the topic, don't most of the military uniform regs say you aren't to wear the uniform at establishments that primarily serve alcohol, or where you intend to just drink... But I don't think they go as far as to say you can't drink.

I'd have to check, but IIRC CAPR 52-16 does say that you shouldn't drink/smoke around cadets.

[mikeylikey]

Lets not forget, these Cadets have been exposed to drinking way before they ALL got involved with CAP.  Hell......turn on the television, open a newspaper, listen to the radio and there are hundreds of references to drinking.  Drinking is not the problem.  Failing to express upon these children what Alcohol can do to F up your life is.  

I still see no problem with alcohol at CAP functions.  We are all Officers (except for the NCO's), if we ACT like it, NO PROBLEMO!

[Stonewall]

In the army, at one unit, we had our own bar (lounge).  You'd always see uniforms in there, even during lunch.

Ironically, I think I've read more CAP regs than actual military regs, but if I remember correctly, I don't think it was an issue to go into a bar with a uniform on.  Granted, not sure why you'd wear BDUs, but I've seen my fair share of Class A's in a bar.  Heck, what about Officer and Enlisted clubs.  The whole purpose is to drink in uniform there.  

[mikeylikey]

On the topic, don't most of the military uniform regs say you aren't to wear the uniform at establishments that primarily serve alcohol, or where you intend to just drink...

No they say you can't were, BDU's, ACU's flight suits or field uniforms.  UNLESS you decide to go the O-Club, then you can.    

[MIKE]

1-3. h. Tobacco Products, Alcoholic Beverages & Illegal Drugs.
(1) CAP cadets, regardless of age, will not possess, chew, or consume tobacco products, nor will they possess or consume alcoholic beverages or illegal drugs, in any form, while participating in any CAP activity.
(2) Senior members should exercise discretion when drinking alcoholic beverages or using tobacco products at CAP activities when cadets are present. Seniors should avoid drinking alcohol or using tobacco at all times when they are directly working with cadets or when they are in a confined space with cadets. Additionally, seniors who are not working with cadets should avoid excessive alcohol consumption when they can reasonably expect to encounter cadets thereafter.
(3) Commanders may augment these rules as appropriate for specific situations, including, but not limited to, establishing designated smoking and non-smoking areas, or designating areas as "off-limits" to cadets.

[mikeylikey]

^  Key word is SHOULD.  It does not say "must not", "should not" or "will not".  I take that as "try to keep your drinking unseen", but if you happen to find yourself drinking in front of Cadets, "Oh well". 

That should be written to prohibit ALL drinking and Smoking.  Right???

[Walkman]

Considering I've been dry for about 15 years, I'd like to second ChaplainDon's post. I'd rather not have my son see an officer he respects drinking.

My .02¢ anyway.

[Major Lord]

I challenge anyone to list a National regulation prohibiting drinking alcohol during CAP Cadet activities ( Although it is safe to say that flight and vehicle regs may make some small mention of it) There is a regulation regarding providing alcohol or drugs to cadets, but since CAP is HQ'd in Alabama, they strangely omitted cigarettes from that reg..... This Reg is an "Urban Myth". While it may be a good idea, it is not the the rule or the law.

Cadets judge Senior Members on the strength and quality of their character, good or bad. If you feel that drinking ETOH in front of cadets may make you a drunken fool, or if you have any SM associates that fit this profile, you should limit their participation in Cadet programs.

I once saw a Senior Member drink and give alcohol to Cadets ( an RC Chaplain) but I don't remember his molesting any cadets or dancing on tabletops.....

Major Lord

[Chaplaindon]

I challenge anyone to list a National regulation prohibiting drinking alcohol during CAP Cadet activities ( Although it is safe to say that flight and vehicle regs may make some small mention of it) There is a regulation regarding providing alcohol or drugs to cadets, but since CAP is HQ'd in Alabama, they strangely omitted cigarettes from that reg..... This Reg is an "Urban Myth". While it may be a good idea, it is not the the rule or the law.

Cadets judge Senior Members on the strength and quality of their character, good or bad. If you feel that drinking ETOH in front of cadets may make you a drunken fool, or if you have any SM associates that fit this profile, you should limit their participation in Cadet programs.

I once saw a Senior Member drink and give alcohol to Cadets ( an RC Chaplain) but I don't remember his molesting any cadets or dancing on tabletops.....

Major Lord

The presence or absence of a regulation prohibiting (or, for that matter, authorizing) drinking in the presence of cadets should not be the final arbiter of the appropriateness of said activity. Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean one SHOULD do it.

Based on the compliance-level of SMs regarding uniform regulations (well a manual that functions as a reg), a higher "calling" is needed. That would be a mature deliberate decision as to the circumstances at hand and whether drinking of alcohol is appropriate. I believe that is what CAPR 52-16 means by "exercise discretion."

On the other hand, your reference to a chaplain " ...give[ing] alcohol to Cadets ..." (at a CAP activity) is another situation entirely.

I would consider that unquestionably wrong, a violation of CPPT, and undoubtedly a violation of state law. And just because this chaplain didn't  "... molest any cadets (hopefully not a slur at a Roman Catholic cleric) or danc[e] on tabletops ...." doesn't make his actions right. I should hope that this individual was immediately removed from the CAP event and a CAPF-2b was executed.

If such actions were not taken, and SMs actually witnessed the act or were told of it by a principal in the event, then all involved SMs should be disciplined or 2b'd.

[mikeylikey]

I read an article on MSNBC.com last week that listed each state and their laws regarding drinking.  THERE is no federal law prohibiting minors from drinking!  However there are only 13 states to expressly forbid minors from drinking.  The other states have laws that basically say "minors can't buy alcohol, but may drink it in the presence of adults, or their spouses.  

Weird....right!

[JC004]

I read an article on MSNBC.com last week that listed each state and their laws regarding drinking.  THERE is no federal law prohibiting minors from drinking!  However there are only 13 states to expressly forbid minors from drinking.  The other states have laws that basically say "minors can't buy alcohol, but may drink it in the presence of adults, or their spouses. 

Weird....right!

The laws are pretty interesting.  All states have the 21-year old purchase laws, but consumption is another issue.  I had a great site on it once, but I can't seem to find it.  The 21 thing comes from the federal government promising to take away your highway funds if you lower the age below 21.  States can, however, and sometimes consider doing it.  I think NH was the last one that I saw...You can drink at 18 or 19 (depending on the province) in Canada anyway, plus, NH and VT don't really have any roads anyway.   

[Rube11]

Folks,

There is guidance in the CAP Directives regarding this subject:

Reference:  CAPR 52-16, 1 Oct 06

  h. Tobacco Products, Alcoholic Beverages & Illegal Drugs.
(1) CAP cadets, regardless of age, will not possess, chew, or consume tobacco products, nor will they possess or consume alcoholic beverages or illegal drugs, in any form, while participating in any CAP activity.
(2) Senior members should exercise discretion when drinking alcoholic beverages or using tobacco products at CAP activities when cadets are present. Seniors should avoid drinking alcohol or using tobacco at all times when they are directly working with cadets or when they are in a confined space with cadets. Additionally, seniors who are not working with cadets should avoid excessive alcohol consumption when they can reasonably expect to encounter cadets thereafter.
(3) Commanders may augment these rules as appropriate for specific situations, including, but not limited to, establishing designated smoking and non-smoking areas, or designating areas as "off-limits" to cadets.

There should not be any alcohol served at any training session at the unit level when cadets are participating.

OBTW:  I wholeheartedly disagree with the comment regarding Officer and Enlisted Clubs; "The whole purpose is to drink in uniform there."  Obviously you have not attended an officer's or enlisted call on an Active Duty AF Base.  Not all enlisted members or officers drink when they attend a function at either the the Officer's or Enlisted Clubs.  Of course we do have those folks who do not drink in moderation and get sh.. faced and eventually embarrass themselves.  Just like we do at CAP functions...

My 2 cents; forebid drinking at all training activities involving cadets and make the area "off limits" to cadets  when alcohol is served during conferences / awards banquets during the social hour!

Rube11

[Flying Pig]

So then your saying its up to you to teach my son/cadet about sober living? Why dont we just keep it out of CAP functions and leave it at that.  Cadets aren't going to learn anything by watching Seniors walk around the ballroom with a mixed drink in their hand.

[Rube11]

It's should be certain senior member's responsibility to teach cadets in their unit about drugs and alcohol and their impact, i.e., Morale Leadership Officer, DCC, Chaplain, etc., in conjunction with what is being taught at home by the parents! 

I would hope  that professional senior officers and NCOs could abstain from drinking at CAP Functions; however, some senior Field Grade CAP Officers get upset when people threaten to have an "alcohol free" conference, banquet, activity...this is why alcohol will always be served at National, Region and Wing conferences.

Best case scenario; zero alcohol when cadets are present.  I would hope professionals could attend a function involving cadets for 2-3 hours without a drink.

My personal opinion and $1.25 will buy you a cup of coffee!

Rube11

[Stonewall]

OBTW:  I wholeheartedly disagree with the comment regarding Officer and Enlisted Clubs; "The whole purpose is to drink in uniform there."  Obviously you have not attended an officer's or enlisted call on an Active Duty AF Base.  Not all enlisted members or officers drink when they attend a function at either the the Officer's or Enlisted Clubs.  Of course we do have those folks who do not drink in moderation and get sh.. faced and eventually embarrass themselves.  Just like we do at CAP functions...

Gear down big shifter, I was basically making a joke there, since every function I've attended at an NCO/O-club, from PJ graduations to wedding receptions have involved people drinking in uniform.

My opinion on drinking in the presence of, or the potential presence of cadets, is to not do it.  Have I done it?  Yep, absolutely.  After the fact, a couple cadets said to me "dern Major Bowden, we thought you were like this pure adult that didn't do anything wrong...  Something to that affect.  It was at a wing awards banquet at Bolling AFB's O-Club where there was a "seniors only social hour".  The problem is, how can it be seniors only when cadets often require a ride from seniors.  Granted, I had one or two drinks socially, it is nearly impossible to stay out of site from the cadets.  Not to mention, even a couple of drinks can give the odor of alcohol.

I never thought of myself as "pure", heck, I party it up, drink, dance, and do all the fun stuff that every soldier, airman, and all around normal guy does.  But when I thought about it, in front of cadets, I'm on my best behaviour.  They only see me a few hours a week and see me as "the man in control".  Often times they don't see the flaws that even we see ourselves.  Some how, we keep them at home, which is a good thing.  I think.

Drinking during after training events, classes, or activities that only involve seniors, totally cool and I even recommend it.  Like graduation dinner at Region Staff College or maybe after a PDW.  Absolutely, I'd be there.  But something inside me just makes me think that while nothing bad may come of it, nothing good can come from cadets being witness to a senior holding an alcoholic beverage in uniform where they will interact.

Drinking alcohol does not mean people are evil, do stupid things, embarrass CAP or even have the potential to cause harm.  Enjoying alcohol has been the norm and a custom for a lot longer than we've all been alive.  I see no harm in it.  But again, in my opinion, I say cadets should not be exposed to it.

[dwb]

I used to think that having alcohol at Wing Conferences and the like wasn't appropriate.  Now it doesn't bother me as much, for a couple reasons.

1. Casual alcohol consumption is something a lot of adults do, and the cadets know they do, so why try to hide it?

2. Drinking responsibly, and still enjoying the social function, is a very important lesson for young adults to learn... as long as the senior members are able to set the example.

3. In the rare case that a senior member embarrasses him/herself, my experience has been that the cadets see right through it, and lose some respect for the senior member.  IOW, they don't see it as a good thing.

I remember cases, as a cadet and as a senior member, where senior members had a little too much to drink at CAP social functions.  The vast majority of people consider this to be roundly inappropriate, and shun the drunkard appropriately.  Cadets are actually very sensitive to the example the adults are setting, and most wouldn't condone getting publicly drunk at a CAP function.

[topsecret]

We need to realize that we are role models around cadets, and our actions send a message.  Drinking around cadets is not a constructive message, regardless of the letter of the regulations ("should not" instead of "shall not").

With all respect to those who view this subject differently, I believe that it's stretching to justify drinking in a cadet's presence with "we can show cadets that one can drink responsibly."

No real value is added by this practice, but value is potentially lost.  Should a situation arise which requires your intervention, your judgment is impaired -- or at least suspect. 

Trust me, those kids are also watching when you jump in the car after the function and drive home.  Even if it's been enough time that you're "legal," they're going to remember that Captain Rolemodel had a beer and drove.  Since the Captain managed it, they may just try it.

Bad idea, all the way around.

v/r
Bill Johnson, Major, CAP

[mikeylikey]

After the fact, a couple cadets said to me "dern Major Bowden, we thought you were like this pure adult that didn't do anything wrong... 

If they only knew...........hahahhahha   

[flyerthom]

On the other hand, your reference to a chaplain " ...give[ing] alcohol to Cadets ..." (at a CAP activity) is another situation entirely.

I would consider that unquestionably wrong, a violation of CPPT, and undoubtedly a violation of state law. And just because this chaplain didn't  "... molest any cadets (hopefully not a slur at a Roman Catholic cleric) or danc[e] on tabletops ...." doesn't make his actions right. I should hope that this individual was immediately removed from the CAP event and a CAPF-2b was executed.

If such actions were not taken, and SMs actually witnessed the act or were told of it by a principal in the event, then all involved SMs should be disciplined or 2b'd.

While I unquestionably agree you I wonder if there's a tongue in cheek somewhere. Part of the RC communion sacrament is the use of wine. The communion wafer can be dipped in the wine or the cup can be shared. If the RC chaplain was using wine in the sacrament one would see the cadet being given alcohol (unless the good father was using sparkling juices).

Chaplin Don you (and the rest of us) may have just been pranked by a master.

Major Lord, are you pulling our legs?

Tags/spacing - MIKE

[Fifinella]

We had an occasional problem at our AFA Spring Break Training camp with AFA cadets drinking underage.  Every few years they'd do it, be stupid, get caught, and get kicked off the team.

When I was on the staff, we decided NO ONE could drink at training camp.  Not staff, not legal-age cadets, NO ONE.  We had no incidents during those three years.  It's easier to understand black and white than shades of gray.  One standard, equally applied to all.

Do I enjoy a drink at home, or when I'm out with adults?  Yes.  Do I drink when cadets are around?  No.

I understand MikeyLikey's point, but do not feel it is my job to teach cadets to drink responsibly through my example.  I'd rather demonstrate that adults can have a good time without alcohol, and avoid ANY potential problems.

[CadetProgramGuy]

Is this bad? 

YES

Should it be forbidden? 

YES

Is it cool as long as the cadets don't see you drink?

Oh Hell No!

[NIN]

I'll just say this, about that:

1) I am tacitly uncomfortable with "seniors drinking in front of cadets."   Now, that definition needs some clarity.  If I am at an encampment, cracking open a beer during the staff meeting where cadets are present is improper.  Inviting cadets to your barracks area where there is a drunken all-senior bash going on is inappropriate.   Having an "all squadron" staff meeting at your house and having beer for the adults is pushing it.  Even having a squadron banquet with a cash bar is, IMHO, not correct.

That having been said, I have had drinks at CAP activities where there are cadets in the area.  Example: Summer Encampment.  The club is 1/2 mile away from the barracks.  Cadets are not permitted in the vicinity of the club. Period.  (and seniors going back to their barracks need to go "straight back" and not decide "hey, why not an impromptu bed check?"  Wrong answer, dirtball.)  Or conference where there is a senior-only hospitality suite beforehand.  Again, not in front of the troops.  Not on a squadron bivouac where you're all billeted in the same GP Medium.

Worst experience of my "young senior member-ship" was at a conference in I think Kalamazoo, Michigan.  They had a "no-host" social in the sort of lobby area outside the banquet room with a cash bar.  Thinking nothing of it, I got myself a drink. Turned around and there were two of my leadership school cadets staring at me, slack jawed.  I set my drink down, untouched, and walked away from it.  That freaked me out.


2) Cadets are going to be cadets. Whether they see the seniors drinking or not.  WIWAC, my first drink was at a cadet conference in Howell, Michigan.   I never even saw a senior drink, so its not like I was emboldened or encouraged by watching my officers get sloppy.  No, I had a buddy who was an alcoholic and could buy booze.  Did the same thing 6 mo later at the wing conference in Lansing, Michigan.  Ugh.  Again, never even saw my officers drink.

But later, as a more senior cadet, I did see some of my officers with alcohol. And they were very responsible with it, never getting sloppy or anything like that.  If anything, I learned that there was such a thing as "responsible drinking" from them.

In a primarily cadet environment (encampment, NCSA, cadet conference, etc) I would avoid alcohol in front of the cadets without question. However, in a mixed environment (wing/region conferences, NB, whatever) where the intent of the event is NOT primarily cadet focused, and the drinking is "social" in nature,  I think its appropriate to have a LIMITED amount of that going on.

First senior who tries a carrier landing on the head table at the region conference dining out cuz he drank too much at the hospitality suite is going to ruin it for everybody else

BTW, claiming that its a CPPT violation is disingenuous at best.

[ELTHunter]

Cadets do learn from positive role models, which is what I hope all of us are when we are working with them.  I don't think alcohol belongs at any activity except semi-formal occasions such as Wing/Region/National Conferences.  Almost all of the cadets at these functions are going to be the older ones who probably have already been exposed to alcohol...or worse, in their daily lives away from CAP.  Many of them might also have the idea from movies and TV that a military lifestyle involves heavy drinking.  Showing them that CAP Officers are human and may drink, but do it responsibly is not such as bad thing.  Should we make them go to a banquet so they can learn this lesson, of course not.  But learning how to conduct themselves properly in situations they will see out in the real world is part of their learning to do things the right way when they get out there.

[Chaplaindon]

"BTW, claiming that its a CPPT violation is disingenuous at best."

Col Ninness,

If your quote was a response to my earlier repudiation of an anecdote wherein allegedly, a cadet was given a "social drink" (the topic of this thread) by a SM (coincidentally a chaplain), then I strongly disagree with your "disingenuous" comment.

An adult (SM) knowingly providing an intoxicant (social drink, NOT a sacrament) to an adolecent (Cadet) would be well outside the constraints of CPPT. As a former squadron commander, I'd CAPF 2b that SM (chaplain or not) in a heartbeat.

To suggest that SMs intoxicating cadets is within CPPT guidelines is potentially dangerous.

[mikeylikey]

Many of them might also have the idea from movies and TV that a military lifestyle involves heavy drinking.

....military life involves heavy drinking, why else would beer and booze be so cheap at the CLASS 6 store?  Seriously, AAFES raised cigarette prices about 2 years ago to be more in line with whatever state they are being sold in.  They should also do the same for alcohol.  It only makes drinking more appetizing if the price to do it is so low.  

I have no problem with drinking, I could even care less who saw me having a "social" drink.  The cadets these days have seen far worse than a person drinking a beer.  This to me is a moot point.  The reg says, try not to drink, it does not prohibit it.  SO.....we are all just basing our stance on our personal opinion of drinking.  Do as you wish, I will do as I wish.  ACTUALLY, I don't drink any longer.  It is far more professional to have an iced tea than a beer at social gatherings.  AND Cheaper!  Don't want to be labeled as a DRUNK, ALCHY, or boozer!

[Major Lord]

On the other hand, your reference to a chaplain " ...give[ing] alcohol to Cadets ..." (at a CAP activity) is another situation entirely.

I would consider that unquestionably wrong, a violation of CPPT, and undoubtedly a violation of state law. And just because this chaplain didn't  "... molest any cadets (hopefully not a slur at a Roman Catholic cleric) or danc[e] on tabletops ...." doesn't make his actions right. I should hope that this individual was immediately removed from the CAP event and a CAPF-2b was executed.

If such actions were not taken, and SMs actually witnessed the act or were told of it by a principal in the event, then all involved SMs should be disciplined or 2b'd.

While I unquestionably agree you I wonder if there's a tongue in cheek somewhere. Part of the RC communion sacrament is the use of wine. The communion wafer can be dipped in the wine or the cup can be shared. If the RC chaplain was using wine in the sacrament one would see the cadet being given alcohol (unless the good father was using sparkling juices).

Chaplin Don you (and the rest of us) may have just been pranked by a master.

Major Lord, are you pulling our legs?

Tags/spacing - MIKE

I will differ to Chaplain Don's expert opinion that practicing members of the Roman Catholic Faith should be 2b'd from CAP. He is after all, a member of the clergy...Or so he claims.... Handling snakes is still okay in Alabama though, right?

Major Lord

p.s: Who are you sir, so wise in the ways of science?

[Major Lord]

(unless the good father was using sparkling juices).

By the way, Catholics don't have to drink the wine, either species, (bread or wine) or both is Catholic- Kosher....Sparking Juice is not allowed, but I know that a lot of baptists use grape juice...probably for fear of corrupting cadets.....

Major Lord

[flyerthom]

On the other hand, your reference to a chaplain " ...give[ing] alcohol to Cadets ..." (at a CAP activity) is another situation entirely.

I would consider that unquestionably wrong, a violation of CPPT, and undoubtedly a violation of state law. And just because this chaplain didn't  "... molest any cadets (hopefully not a slur at a Roman Catholic cleric) or danc[e] on tabletops ...." doesn't make his actions right. I should hope that this individual was immediately removed from the CAP event and a CAPF-2b was executed.

If such actions were not taken, and SMs actually witnessed the act or were told of it by a principal in the event, then all involved SMs should be disciplined or 2b'd.

While I unquestionably agree you I wonder if there's a tongue in cheek somewhere. Part of the RC communion sacrament is the use of wine. The communion wafer can be dipped in the wine or the cup can be shared. If the RC chaplain was using wine in the sacrament one would see the cadet being given alcohol (unless the good father was using sparkling juices).

Chaplin Don you (and the rest of us) may have just been pranked by a master.

Major Lord, are you pulling our legs?

Tags/spacing - MIKE

I will differ to Chaplain Don's expert opinion that practicing members of the Roman Catholic Faith should be 2b'd from CAP. He is after all, a member of the clergy...Or so he claims.... Handling snakes is still okay in Alabama though, right?

Major Lord

p.s: Who are you sir, so wise in the ways of science?

Graduate of a Jesuit institution of psychological torture ah higher education. Survivor of Alter Boy and choir.

<edit - bad joke gone>

[Skyray]

We are getting a bit personal and drifting dangerously close to thread-lock.

[Major Lord]

I apologize to any snakes that may have been offended by my incorrectly linking them with Alabama... My point re; Alcohol is that its' appropriate use is entirely circumstantial. We have seen honor students expelled from school for having Midol, by religious, political, and idealogical zealots incapable of looking beyond appearances. Relying on the National organization to produce a one-size-fits-all zero tolerance policy is ludicrous. They could not see that giving tobacco products to cadets was Mala in se, or bad in itself. I need not remind you of some of the other decisions left to that body...They can hardly balance a checkbook, let alone draft a social policy that will work in every circumstance and locale.

Major Lord

[mikeylikey]

Lets move away from religion.   

[JohnKachenmeister]

I do not, and as a commander I did not permit officers to consume alcohol in any form in the presence of cadets.  But...

WIWAC, there was alcohol served at Group and Wing banquets.  Officers did consume alcohol in the presence of cadets.  CAP survived, so did us cadets.

I see NO problem with officers drinking alcohol at areas in a conference designated as "Off limits" to cadets. 

But, now here's a serious question, that nobody has addressed:

We finish an exercise, the cadets all are on their way home, and the officers decide to have an after-action review at a Beef O'Brady's, or something.  Two of the officers have children who are cadets in the unit, and bring them.

Now what?

[ELTHunter]

But, now here's a serious question, that nobody has addressed:

We finish an exercise, the cadets all are on their way home, and the officers decide to have an after-action review at a Beef O'Brady's, or something.  Two of the officers have children who are cadets in the unit, and bring them.

Now what?

Are the cadets children of the members, or just cadets hitching a ride home.  If the latter, I'd say it was inappropriate unless the Officer in question knows beyond a shadow of a doubt what the views of the cadets parents would be of the situation.  If the former, I'd say the activities over and not a problem.

[Stonewall]

But, now here's a serious question, that nobody has addressed:

We finish an exercise, the cadets all are on their way home, and the officers decide to have an after-action review at a Beef O'Brady's, or something.  Two of the officers have children who are cadets in the unit, and bring them.

I sort of brought this up in my initial post.

At one squadron, we met at the American Legion, a huge one.  Two stories with a bar on the ground floor.  ~~snip~~   The bad thing, I think, is when several of the seniors who had cadets in the squadron would stay, making their cadet sit in the bar watching seniors drink.

I see two [potential] problems here.

1.  I've seen this take a negative affect on cadets whose parents are in CAP before.  Where those cadets who are now at the AAR with their parent/senior member, are not just with dad, but with some other squadron members and now feel special.  They may be privy to information others aren't, get some special bonding time with the DCC or CC, or quite possibly bend the ear of a one of those other seniors and benefit from simply being in the situation their father put them in.

2.  Those cadets/offspring are now bearing witness to senior members other than their parents consuming alcohol.  Which, in and of itself is not bad, but perhaps those members had more than 2 or 3 cocktails and went "AUX OFF" lowering their guard and quite possibly showing a side of them they shouldn't.

Just something I would take into consideration.

[LtCol White]

I'm not saying there should be open season on functions and alcohol with cadets but I don't see anything wrong with a social mixer at something like a Wing Conference where the seniors have a drink before or after dinner. Most cadets are exposed to drinking at home and outside with friends in some form. In the proper setting, this can be seen as setting the example of drinking responsibly and that you can have a good time without getting hammered. Making drinking seem something akin to watching a porn film in a smoke filled backroom REALLY sets the wrong example. Afterall, they can go to most any restaurant and sit at a table next to adults who are drinking and getting sloppy drunk. Applebees, Chilis, Mexican places...etc.

[arajca]

It is far more professional to have an iced tea than a beer at social gatherings.  AND Cheaper!  Don't want to be labeled as a DRUNK, ALCHY, or boozer!

Not to mention the fun one can have watching the overindulgers make complete - or ven incomplete - follos of them selves AND being able to remind them of it at a later date.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Stonewall:

I know you mentioned it, but nobody commented on it, and nobody followed it up.

This happens a lot, and I really don't have all the answers.

You could... Leave, but then you would look anti-social.

You could... Tell the officers to take their children/cadets home, in which case you still appear anti-social.

You could... Suggest that the cadet/children occupy another table where they can eat their burger and drink their soft drinks.  This might be the best option.

Your point of "Special access" to officers is valid, but it seems to be unavoidable in the CAP environment.  After all, the kid LIVES with one of the officers!

[ELTHunter]

Afterall, they can go to most any restaurant and sit at a table next to adults who are drinking and getting sloppy drunk. Applebees, Chilis, Mexican places...etc.

Brings up a good point.  When I took over as Deputy Commander for Cadets several years ago, ,my predecessor had traditionally gone to Applebees or Ruby Tuesday's with the cadet staff after the weekly meeting.  These dinners were social to some extent and planning meetings to some extent.  When I took over, I felt a little uncomfortable doing that, so I've only done it occasionally.  Neither nor anyone in the group would drink anything, but I just didn't want to cross that line into fraternization while still getting to know the kids as people.

So was that appropriate???

[LittleIronPilot]

Wow...so social drinking is now equated with the most vial of "sins"?

I understand and respect what some are saying in respect to drinking at cadet activities...but alcohol is NOT evil, it has been a part of the human experience for a very long time.

How come in most of Europe drinking and alcohol are just a non-issue, kids drink from a young age, and yet their rates of alcoholism are less than ours per capita? Sometimes I think making something "verbotan" just makes people more apt to do it and go off the deep end.

[Major Lord]

Wow...so social drinking is now equated with the most vial of "sins"?

Right you are! I think we need to order Cadets to have no contact with any obese senior members, since obesity is far more dangerous to Cadets than alcohol! These porky Seniors set a bad example to our cadets, and just the very sight of them helps to validate the gluttonous life style! And ban running with scissors....we should ban that too, and , and, looking at eclipses without the proper gear, and , and , and, and......

The 2B form identifies "Moral Turpitude" as a cause for termination. Surely alcoholism would count? (BTW, didn't they used to have a category for "perversion" on that form? )

Major Lord

[Stonewall]

You could... Suggest that the cadet/children occupy another table where they can eat their burger and drink their soft drinks.  This might be the best option.

Agreed, think that is the best option.

Break.

I don't think anyone here is saying alcohol is evil or sinful.  If that were the case, how come it bring the best out of me 

[ZigZag911]

Chaplain Don is entirely correct that it is absolutely wrong for any SM to give a cadet alcohol (i.e., 'a social drink').

CAP expects much of its officers, and even more of its chaplains....I would have no qualms about having such an individual's membership terminated.

Given the presence of cadets at banquets and other official celebrations, it is probably unrealistic to ban consumption of alcohol by officers....however, there ought to be more emphasis on appropriate conduct by CAP officers in official and social circumstances.

[NIN]

To suggest that SMs intoxicating cadets is within CPPT guidelines is potentially dangerous.

My apologies, Chaplain, I took your original statement out of context and did not catch the background completely (curse you, Red Baron, for my 1600 wpm reading speed. Occasionally I miss a thing or two).  I stand well corrected, sir.

I will agree: SMs should not, under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, be facilitating cadet drinking in any way, shape or form (sacraments  notwithstanding, of course!).   Were I to find one of my officers doing so, he/she would be suspended pending the investigation that would ultimately lead to termination per CAPR 35-3.  And so quickly their head would spin.  Period.

[NIN]

How come in most of Europe drinking and alcohol are just a non-issue, kids drink from a young age, and yet their rates of alcoholism are less than ours per capita? Sometimes I think making something "verbotan" just makes people more apt to do it and go off the deep end.

Can you provide hard data on that per capita claim?  I have heard from Europeans nearly the opposite: that alcoholism rates are up.  I would be curious to see apples-to-apples data to compare to.

[Stonewall]

Hey Nin, remember that time at Lynch's Irish Pub in Jax Beach.  There were zero cadets there, but almost all were former cadets...  I hope I didn't contribute to the delinquency of those former cadets.   

[Stonewall]

Here's a report put out by the US DOJ about US drinking vs European.

In short, US has fewer problems, specifically with our youth and alcohol.

http://www.udetc.org/documents/CompareDrinkRate.pdf

Summary of the report:

Recent data from representative surveys provide no evidence
that young Europeans drink more responsibly than
their counterparts in the United States.

* A greater percentage of young people from nearly
all European countries in the survey report drinking
in the past 30 days.

*For a majority of these European countries, a
greater percentage of young people report having
five or more drinks in a row compared to U.S. 10th
graders. Only for Turkey did a lower percentage of
young people report this behavior.

*A great majority of the European countries in the
survey had higher prevalence rates for selfreported
intoxication than the United States, less
than a quarter had lower rates, and less than a
quarter had rates that were more or less the same
as the United States.

[flyguy06]

Cadets see drinking around their parents. What is the problem with drinking responsibly around cadets? I do no tdrink alcohol at all so for me it is a non issue, but I dont see the problem. I mean cadets are not stupid. They know adults drink. They know adults can get drunk. Half of cadets have older brothers and sisters in college.

Just because you drinkin front of a cadet youare not introducing them to some bad sinful world. They had a brain before they joined CAP

[Stonewall]

Cadets see drinking around their parents. What is the problem with drinking responsibly around cadets? I do no tdrink alcohol at all so for me it is a non issue, but I dont see the problem. I mean cadets are not stupid. They know adults drink. They know adults can get drunk. Half of cadets have older brothers and sisters in college.

Just because you drinkin front of a cadet youare not introducing them to some bad sinful world. They had a brain before they joined CAP

Here's my thinking of your post.

I've got a former cadet of mine that is now an Army 1st Lt with 82nd Airborne leading an infantry platoon in Iraq.  It's been 7 years since he was a CAP cadet and in a letter he wrote to me from Iraq he spoke of several things he learned directly from me over more than 6 years as a cadet.  These are positive things.  Obviously, to him, I was a mentor and someone he looked up to and quite possibly mimicked my actions.  I'm sure, through the eyes of many cadets, I was (and still am) "square".  These cadets are intelligent, street smart and often well-rounded.  That does not mean they aren't impressionable and incapable of negative influence.  If the cadet I described above saw me drinking when he was 16, it may have impacted him adversely.  Not saying that it would, but it could.  Especially if their home life is not so great and "Lt Col Bowden is the only positive role model the young cadet emulates".  It happens, I know it does and cadets copy their leaders, especially if they think they're the "bomb".

It's kind of like the senior member all the cadets like that shows up wearing a boonie cap in the dead of winter with no sun to speak of.  All of the sudden, you've got 10 cadets showing up with boonies on their grapes.  Yeah, I'd say we have a bigger influence on these bright young cadets than a lot of people realize.

[NIN]

Hey Nin, remember that time at Lynch's Irish Pub in Jax Beach.  There were zero cadets there, but almost all were former cadets...  I hope I didn't contribute to the delinquency of those former cadets.   

OMG, brother. We need to get back there.  Next time I'm in FLA for some jumping, I'll make the time to come to Jax.

[Eclipse]

...looking at eclipses without the proper gear...

HEY!   

[Eclipse]

CAP spends a fair amount of ca$h on DDR collateral, which included alcohol abuse, and then cadets see
their senior leaders sitting in a bar.  Mixed messages to say the least.

I don't think seniors should drink in front of cadets, period.  We're supposed to be setting the example, not
perpetuating the norm. Is one night or week going to kill anyone?

With that said, a glass of wine or beer with dinner, or used for the toast at a banquet isn't  big deal, but what disappoints me to almost no end are these seniors who make the whole point of a wing conference, encampment, national training event, etc., the time spent in the hotel bar, strip club, etc.

There are way too many senior who broadcast in "clear-channel stereotype" about being away from the "ball and chain".  Its ridiculous - married adults who act like college students the minute they are away from home.

[Stonewall]

Its ridiculous - married adults who act like college students the minute they are away from home.

My wife ain't no ball and chain.  She's the coolest adult that acts like a college student you could ever meet.  Former bar tender and president of youth soccer association.  Like me, she knows when and where to act appropriately in front of our nation's youth.

[spaatzmom]

I agree that limited social drinking is at most reasonable in limited settings.  What I have a problem with is when cadets cannot avoid being put in that setting as cadets.  Is it really that important to officers to have that drink at a conference knowing that cadets are in full view?  If so, then shouldn't they the officers, be a bit more concerned about why they have to have it at all?  The biggest problem with social drinking at such functions, is when the cadet has no choice but to get in the car with the escort and or parent who has been drinking, no matter how much they have had.  I see huge legal fees incurred by CAP should any cadet be involved in an accident coming home from a meeting, group banquet, or conference after any drinking by officers.  It is bad enough when they are held as a captive audience of these members that hit the bar after any function, who are supposed to be taking responsibility for the cadets safety and welfare; but when it goes to the next step of an accident waiting to happen, there is where the line should be drawn deeply in the sand.  NO.

[DogCollar]

CAP spends a fair amount of ca$h on DDR collateral, which included alcohol abuse, and then cadets see
their senior leaders sitting in a bar.  Mixed messages to say the least.As long as DDR is a part of the CAP mission, I would have no problem saying no alcohol at ANY CAP event.  Sending a "mixed message" is a nice way of putting it.  I would say we should walk the walk as SM's, not just talk the talk.

I don't think seniors should drink in front of cadets, period.  We're supposed to be setting the example, not
perpetuating the norm. Is one night or week going to kill anyone?

With that said, a glass of wine or beer with dinner, or used for the toast at a banquet isn't  big deal, but what disappoints me to almost no end are these seniors who make the whole point of a wing conference, encampment, national training event, etc., the time spent in the hotel bar, strip club, etc.A toast can also be made with water, iced tea, soft drinks, etc...

There are way too many senior who broadcast in "clear-channel stereotype" about being away from the "ball and chain".  Its ridiculous - married adults who act like college students the minute they are away from home.

To me, this type of activity moves well beyond acceptability.  It is indeed hypocritical to mandate moral leadership exposure for cadets, and then have senior members model the exact opposite type of behavior.  I, for one, believe that as far as modeling "responsible drinking" that is the role of parents.  Period.  That is not a role model for any senior member.  Period.  That's my .02  Sorry about getting up in my pulpit.  I guess I must have strong feelings about this subject.  I'm sorry if I am offending anyone.

[LittleIronPilot]

Just a point, one that seems lost: social drinking != alcohol abuse.

That is like saying someone speeding 1 mile over the limit is driving recklessly and endangering lives.

What seems to be the issue is that many DO feel that drinking is bad, period, and that any exposure to it from someone in "leadership" sends the message that moderate drinking, by adults, is OK and some of you do not want even THAT message sent.

BTW...it seems I stand corrected on Europe, though I still have a different view on things.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Chaplain Bill:

Don't wory about sounding "Preachy."  You are, after all, a Preacher.  It would seem that such conduct would come with the job title.

You are also correct.  Toasts at events where cadets are present can be made with sparking grape juice.  Class 6 supplies have no role in cadet activities.

But, adults are adults.  At an event where cadets are NOT present, or in an area designated as "Off limits" to cadets, I see no reason why officers cannot share a cocktail or two.  People who cannot handle their liquor are a leadership problem, same as in the RealMilitary, and good leaders will address it early and effectively.

[mikeylikey]

^  Good points!  Lets also not forget to have non-alcoholic beverages for those adults that don't drink.  I have attended a few CAP activities where Alcohol was the only thing provided, or the only drink that was free at the bar, while soda was $1.50  Ridiculous!

[davedove]

^  Good points!  Lets also not forget to have non-alcoholic beverages for those adults that don't drink.  I have attended a few CAP activities where Alcohol was the only thing provided, or the only drink that was free at the bar, while soda was $1.50  Ridiculous!

Now THAT is ridiculous, not to mention socially irresponsible.  That setup is encouraging people to drink the alcohol.  If anything, it ought to be the opposite.

[mikeylikey]

^ Agreed!

[Fifinella]

...looking at eclipses without the proper gear...

HEY!   

Yeah, especially you!

[Fifinella]

But, now here's a serious question, that nobody has addressed:

We finish an exercise, the cadets all are on their way home, and the officers decide to have an after-action review at a Beef O'Brady's, or something.  Two of the officers have children who are cadets in the unit, and bring them.

Now what?

Assuming this is still about alcohol, and not "favoritism" or "fraternization", i have a question and a comment.

Who's driving?  IMO, adults should NEVER drink any alcohol in front of a cadet and then drive.  One drink will probably not impair an adult (for sake of argument), particularly when drunk with a meal, but it is a dangerous example to give to a (presumably) younger, smaller, less-experienced driver.

That being said, I still don't think it's asking too much that the adults not drink in front of the cadets.  I would not drink in this situation, and I would ask my staff not to drink either. 

They may see their parents drink at home.  But at CAP they are learning about other environments.  CAP can be a place where the cadets (and maybe even the seniors) learn things that may be useful in the workplace, social life, etc.  Learning that some organizations may require you to modify your behavior or make sacrifices is a lesson I consider valuable, and something that seems to be less well-known these days.

Guess I'm a Square too...

[BlackKnight]

2. Drinking responsibly, and still enjoying the social function, is a very important lesson for young adults to learn... as long as the senior members are able to set the example.

That is EXACTLY how I view this also. 

As a DCC I have listened (OK, 'eavesdropped') while my cadets discussed senior officers and moderate alcohol consumption at wing conferences.  The "everything in responsible moderation" message is received very well and fits in with the other aspects of the CAP Cadet Leadership program that we're trying to teach- including Moral Leadership. The "Alcohol is a tool of the Devil" line doesn't get much traction unless the cadet's parents are already tee-totalers.  Seeing adults practicing what we preach, maintaining self control and military bearing is an extraordinarily powerful message.  Contrast the adult behaviours our cadets see at a wing conference social hour with your typical office Christmas party (or the drunk fans at almost any major sports event) and you'll see my point.  They do too.

With that said, America has been debating alcohol since the Pilgrims landed at Plymouth.   Most opinions are extremely strongly held. I doubt we'll change any of those via a CAPTalk thread. 

YMMV...

[mikeylikey]

With that said, America has been debating alcohol since the Pilgrims landed at Plymouth.   Most opinions are extremely strongly held. I doubt we'll change any of those via a CAPTalk thread. 

YMMV...

Yes, but most illegal drugs were legal up to the 1920's. Some as late as 1950's.  I have to debate that the pilgrims debated alcohol.  If my memory serves correctly, they brewed beer the very first year after they landed.  It has been a long practice to save the nutrition value of grains by making alcohol.  They would drink it during the winter months.  Somewhere drinking was labeled as "bad" and given a stigma.  I am no scholar, but there was no drinking age in this country until the 1900's.  Our ancestors seemed to get through life with alcohol available to everyone.  Why can't we? 

If we remove the temptation and illegality of underage drinking, then I bet we would see less binge drinking and alcohol related deaths in minors.

[BlackKnight]

I have to debate that the pilgrims debated alcohol.  If my memory serves correctly, they brewed beer the very first year after they landed.

Point conceded.  But I'll bet they debated whether they should keep offering it to the natives! 

Our ancestors seemed to get through life with alcohol available to everyone.  Why can't we? 

If we remove the temptation and illegality of underage drinking, then I bet we would see less binge drinking and alcohol related deaths in minors.

I completely agree. (But of course until then, the law is the law.)  Since you so brazenly reached out and grabbed onto the "third rail" of this topic, I figure you'd like some company while we both get electrocuted and run over.   

[mikeylikey]

^  Haha....I think I read in a national Geographic from the 1950's that American Indians can't hold their alcohol. 

We pushed this thread off topic just a little. 

Back on......DRINKING in front of a Cadet, bad......unless he bought you the drink??

OR..... Are there any wings out there that PROHIBIT ALL drinking at Wing activities?

[ZigZag911]

I don't know any wing that prohibits alcohol at all social events.

While there is an argument to be made for permitting cadets to see seniors use alcohol responsibly, I wonder if the designated driver issue alone ought to make us re-think the whole thing?

I've attended CAP banquets with mixed groups (seniors, & cadets, as well as military & civilian guests, cadets' parents, seniors' families) and have seen more than a few CAP officers consume too much alcohol.

At one memorable NJ Wing banquet there were toasts to the Commander in Chief, the USAF, & the Chief of Staff USAF....then others had to jump in with Marine & Coast Guard Commandants, Army COS....we knew it had gone too far when a thoroughly soused young major toasted "The Chief of Staff of the US Navy".

Which would have been nice if the Navy actually HAD an officer by that title!

Perhaps the time has come for CAP to 'go dry' at all events which include cadets....right up to the banquet at National Board meeting.

[NIN]

Designated driver issues are pretty few and far between, but they do happen. And people need to be responsible.

I went to conference one year, and several of us were bunking at a nearby hotel, but went to the conference hotel to visit upon our friends and share some, *ahem* libations (hospitality suite, among other things)

Aftewards, I'm in the lobby waiting to make the 2 mile drive over to the other hotel when a cadet from my buddy's unit comes up and says "Sir, you're supposed to drive us back to the other hotel.."

Now, I'm utterly uncomfortable talking to a cadet while I've had a couple, but there is no way in hell I'm giving anybody, let alone a cadet, a ride when I've had a couple.  Particularly when someone failed to pre-coordinate the transpo.

We got it straightened out, and the cadets got back to the other hotel without riding with someone who'd been drinking.  And the guy who told the cadets that they should ride with me got a nice talking to, as well.

[Skyray]

I guess I am pretty lucky, but in my days at Pensacola at the training command, if you found yourself impaired and away from your billet all you had to do was call the shore patrol and they would dispatch a car with an additional driver to drive your car home.  The first couple of times there were no repercussions.  I understand that they haven't had the manpower for this service for many years.