Enlisted Troops Saluting CAP "Officers"

[RiverAux]

So why is "Officers" in quotes in the Subject line of this thread.  We are CAP officers.  Quotations entirely unnecessary and more than a little insulting.

[Eclipse]

Good catch.

[NIN]

I had to drive to a customer today, so I took that hour each way to think about this.

I had several thoughts.

1) Salute. Darn it, its a greeting.  Not saluting in a uniformed service is like not saying hello, or, worse yet, ignoring someone saying hello.

If some solider/sailor/airman/Marine/puddle pirate takes the time to salute you, he/she is doing so to a) say "hello" in the common manner of the uniformed services; b) because they recognize *some kind* of grade insignia that looks like an officer. And they're trained to salute officers. With hats, without hats, whatever, doesn't matter.  I see bars/leaves/chickens/stars as a solider, I'm cranking a salute and a greeting of the day, whether that guy is in my uniform, another uniform or whatever.  (Heck, I saluted my battalion commander in civvies one day. He returned my salute and said "good morning!" No Sergeants Major appeared from behind q-huts to shout at me..)

2) Stop trying to explain "oh, you're not supposed to salute me." Just return the salute and drive on.  To enlisted folks, salutes are a part of the day. You trying to tell someone they're "not supposed to salute" the guy with captain's bars is like telling someone that the sun comes up in the west. It just ain't right.

Nobody thinks you're trolling for a salute when Airman Snuffy whips one out on you when you're least expecting it on the local Air Guard base.  Actually stopping someone and stammering thru an explanation of why they're not supposed to salute actually erodes our relationship with the rank-and-file, especially jr. enlisted.  This is what propagates this "DON'T SALUTE CIVIL AIR PATROL PEOPLE! THEY DON'T RATE A SALUTE! THEY'RE JUST LIKE BOY SCOUTS!" attitude. If you professionally return a salute, like any other officer would, you're a member of the team, not someone different.

3) NIN's Rule #14: "If it looks wrong, it is wrong."  Not returning a salute has the appearance of wrong to our brethren in blue.   I once has an AF officer say to me "You're a CAP guy? I didn't even realize that.." after an entire day at the local air guard base around him and another group of officers. This was before grey epaulets. Why? Because from > 25 feet away, as far as he could tell, I was "just another officer" and that was good enough for him.   (to be fair: for many years I have worn my blues in the customary way that AF officers wear their blues: nametag and badges only. No ribbons. I looked like *every other 1st Lt* from that distance, really..)

[Storm Chaser]

it wouldn't be right for me to return a salute since I wasn't wearing a cover.

Where does this nonsense come from?

It comes from how people in the military and CAP were taught eons ago - no hat, no salute.

I think you're confusing this with "no hat, no salute" areas, which is not the same thing. If you, as a CAP officer, or an Air Force General are wearing a mess dress, which doesn't require headgear, would you not salute him/her? How about the President or Secretary of Defense, both civilians who (normally) don't wear hats?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

In the gray/white aviator shirt I have been asked if I was Canadian on a few occassions.

I wonder why?  Canadians do not wear grey uniforms.  Their uniforms are largely derived from British design.

Canadian Army (with a Brigadier General in the foreground):


Royal Canadian Navy (officer in foreground, noncoms in background):


Royal Canadian Air Force (new 2014 redesign worn by Lieutenant-General Yvan Blondin):

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Veritec, if people in CAP would look to what the military does, you would go crazy!

CAP is not military.

Nonetheless...the regs as I learnt them, and as retrieved from Knowledgebase:

Rules for Saluting. It is a courtesy exchanged between members of the Civil Air Patrol when in military-style uniform as both a greeting and a symbol of mutual respect. As such, it is never inappropriate to salute another individual. The basic rules regarding saluting for CAP members are:

(1) You salute when in military-style uniform.

(2) You salute the President of the United States, all Medal of Honor recipients, and commissioned officers and warrant officers of the Armed Forces who are senior in rank to you.

(3) You do not salute when indoors unless you are formally reporting to an officer senior in rank to you.

(4) You salute when outdoors unless:
(a) You are carrying articles (or a heavy object) in both hands, which cannot be transferred to the left hand, or another legitimate reason such as injury, and so forth. In this case, an oral greeting should be exchanged, such as "Good Morning, Sir or Ma'am." If you are the lower ranking individual and the one you are approaching is higher in rank but whose arms are incapacitated, you will still salute.
(b) You are in a designated "covered" or "no salute" area, (aircraft marshalling areas and flightlines are "no salute" areas).
(c) You are a member of a military formation or a work detail (only the senior member of the formation or detail salutes).
(d) You are attending a public gathering such as a sports event.

(5) When on a military installation, you salute officers in government cars if the car has a flag or metal standard that identifies the rank of the occupant (usually general officers and military wing or base commanders).

(6) Military personnel are not required to render a salute to CAP personnel, but they are not restricted from doing so if they desire.

I'm still a bit surprised the OP was saluted by an Airman...I couldn't tell you the last time I was, though other services do so.

It's nothing more than a greeting.

However, I still think it's a tad lopsided that we have to salute military personnel but it's optional for them to salute us...at best, it should be optional for both (and I'd still do it anyway).

It's a lot touchier (and simpler) in the CG AUX, because their regs require ALL members, regardless of insignia worn, to salute ALL military commissioned and warrant officers.  You can be wearing "admiral" type insignia in the CG AUX and you still have to salute the newest Ensign/2nd Lieutenant or Warrant Officer.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Cyborg,

No need to rehash what CAP has incorporated!

Why did you quote me? Is not what you re-posted what I said was incorporated in CAP?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Cyborg,

No need to rehash what CAP has incorporated!

Why did you quote me? Is not what you re-posted what I said was incorporated in CAP?

The reminder wasn't for you, sir...it was for those who may not have read the regs (more than you might think!) and take the "CAP is not military, so I'm not going to bother with all that folderol."

No offence intended.  Honestly.

[AlphaSigOU]

BTW, there is no law or military regulation requiring saluting Medal of Honor recipients. It is customary to salute them if they are wearing The Medal. Here's an article explaining the courtesy: http://www.stripes.com/blogs/the-rumor-doctor/the-rumor-doctor-1.104348/must-all-troops-salute-medal-of-honor-recipients-1.125849

[Майор Хаткевич]

Was saluted by some seamen when I was a cadet. Walking in single file, guy number 2 throws it up, then 4, 3 and 1 never did. Either they gave him crap after they got through the gate, or he gave them crap. I hope the latter. As a C/MSgt it scared me as much as it scared them probably. But returned it, and moved on.

[Eclipse]

I learned quickly to avoid making a wake through a wall of recruits walking around on the RTC wearing Lieutenant's (CAP Captain) bars.

I don't avoid going where I need to, but sometimes I'l cross the street if a division is coming, or a lot of unescorted recruits are ahead.
POs and Chiefs are always polite and generally salute.

Have been told more then once, and told it here more then once - the last thing you do is start teaching recruits to "filter salutes",
especially on a base that houses foreign military.

The next thing you know that recruit is in a world of hurt because they made a bad judgement call.

It seems like the only issue CAP generally has are with new enlisted, and really, is there anything an E2 doesn't have an issue with?

[Майор Хаткевич]

Barracks lawyering?

[Storm Chaser]

We salute commissioned officers when in a military-style uniform because we ARE the Air Force Auxiliary. Military officers are not required to salute CAP officers because we are NOT commissioned officers.

[Eclipse]

Barracks lawyering?

More like barracks whining.

Take a 19 year old, make him walk straight and listen to literally everyone around him 24x7x265, then
one day he finds out that someone, anyone (i.e. CAP) who represents an authority figure (i.e. officers)
can be ignored with no peril.

How do you think the conversation goes from there?

[RRLE]

It's a lot touchier (and simpler) in the CG AUX, because their regs require ALL members, regardless of insignia worn, to salute ALL military commissioned and warrant officers.  You can be wearing "admiral" type insignia in the CG AUX and you still have to salute the newest Ensign/2nd Lieutenant or Warrant Officer.

The USCGAux "admirals" carry the title of Commodore - just for the sake of those who don't know. Several years back the Aux asked the USCG to change the title to Admiral and the USCG refused.

The Aux rule for saluting each other is - don't do it. The actual wording: "Saluting is not required between Auxiliarists nor is it usually the
custom of greeting between them."

Auxies have been called to account when in a public setting they salute each other. Some local units have instituted it from time to time but when the upper echelons hear about it they usually put an end to it. Instituting it, even locally, is considered to be making mandatory what the Auxiliary Manual explicitly states in not required and not an Aux custom. The only known somewhat regular saluting between Auxies is, for some unknown reason, a few years ago, the outgoing National Commodore (NACO) saluted the incoming one at the Change of Watch. I think it has been done ever since.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Have been told more then once, and told it here more then once - the last thing you do is start teaching recruits to "filter salutes",
especially on a base that houses foreign military.

A former wing CC I knew quite well, who spent a lot of time at Maxwell, said there were frequently foreign military personnel there for various schools, and he often "wore his arm off saluting" because he didn't recognise a lot of their ranks.  British, Canadian, Aussie, NZ etc. he didn't have much problem with because they're so similar, but he said that with West Germans, French, Belgians, Dutch, Japanese etc. he often had no idea.  He said "I may have been saluting Corporals but at least I was showing proper etiquette."

The USCGAux "admirals" carry the title of Commodore - just for the sake of those who don't know. Several years back the Aux asked the USCG to change the title to Admiral and the USCG refused.

I think I remember that WIWAAuxie.

The Aux rule for saluting each other is - don't do it. The actual wording: "Saluting is not required between Auxiliarists nor is it usually the
custom of greeting between them."

The wording is slightly different to what I remember - I think it was something like "Saluting is not normal between Auxiliarists;" in either case it says (to me) "you don't have to and we don't encourage it" rather than "don't do it."

Auxies have been called to account when in a public setting they salute each other. Some local units have instituted it from time to time but when the upper echelons hear about it they usually put an end to it. Instituting it, even locally, is considered to be making mandatory what the Auxiliary Manual explicitly states in not required and not an Aux custom.

I never knew of any flotilla that tried to make it mandatory, simply because, as you pointed out, it is against CG and AUX regs.  However, some Auxies I knew did it strictly informally in certain circumstances; i.e., when receiving an award.

The only known somewhat regular saluting between Auxies is, for some unknown reason, a few years ago, the outgoing National Commodore (NACO) saluted the incoming one at the Change of Watch. I think it has been done ever since.

It was done at CoW on more local levels too (I saw it) and it must have been all right with the CG, because there were usually CG officers and PO's/CPO's there and they said nothing to my knowledge.

I got saluted a few times, addressed as "Ensign" (FSO) or "Lieutenant" (VFC), by military people, just returned it and went on my way.  I knew of some Auxies who were so zealously against any kind of saluting that they wanted to force a reg that would require Auxies to stop and explain to the military member that we did not merit a salute and why.  Just another way to confuse the hell out of people (as if the plethora of Aux office abbreviations isn't enough!) as far as I was concerned.

[arajca]

We salute commissioned officers senior in rank to you when in a military-style uniform because we ARE the Air Force Auxiliary. Military officers are not required to salute CAP officers because we are NOT commissioned officers.

FTFY

[RRLE]

The wording is slightly different to what I remember - I think it was something like "Saluting is not normal between Auxiliarists;" in either case it says (to me) "you don't have to and we don't encourage it" rather than "don't do it."

The cite I provided is right out of the current AuxMan. The wording of the rule has changed over the years and even which manual it was in. It only made the Auxiliary Manual two or three revisions back. Prior to that it was buried in the Courtesy Manual. A slightly out-of-date wording of the reg appears on the Aux KnowledgeBase.

I never knew of any flotilla that tried to make it mandatory, simply because, as you pointed out, it is against CG and AUX regs.  However, some Auxies I knew did it strictly informally in certain circumstances; i.e., when receiving an award.

It hasn't happened in a while but on the Aux boards (not pretty much just 1) a member would pop up every now and then and state his flotilla had begun saluting. There was one rather famous individual who was big proponent of Auxie saluting. He had been warned never to do it outside his flotilla. He ran a color guard at a higher level function and saluted them at the end of their performance. He was immediately and very publicly reprimanded by the higher officer. He self-reported that incident on an Aux board.

It was done at CoW on more local levels too (I saw it) and it must have been all right with the CG, because there were usually CG officers and PO's/CPO's there and they said nothing to my knowledge.

I wouldn't put much faith in USCG officers knowing Auxie rules and regs. There was an issue a few years ago when a USCG officer, an admiral I believe, had words with a District Director of Auxiliary (DirAux) because Auxies, in uniform at an Auxie District Conference, did not salute during the pledge or National Anthem. The DirAux posted that Auxies should salute and this was endorsed by the Chief DirAux. That made it to an Aux board where the actual citation from the AuxMan was provided that stated the Auxie were correct to not salute but to put their hand over their heart. That forced a retraction from the ChDirAux and DirAux. I think that rule has since been modified.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Really, this is kind of moot anyway because I hardly ever see, except for cadets, saluting within CAP any more.

[Storm Chaser]

According to CAPP 151, all CAP members in a military-style uniform (all uniform combination except the polo shirt and blazer) must render the proper customs and courtesies to include saluting when appropriate.