ABU Wear Test

[Spaceman3750]

As for the thread itself for all that is holy lock this thread. There is nothing left to say that hasn't been. The decisions have been made, Deal with it. It is the Air Force's freaking uniform and they will decide the future of it in CAP.

OMDL! Methinks this has been the longest conversation about (what I think is) the most insignificant part of CAP ever! With membership levels dropping, funding stagnant, and morale in question, is this the best we can do?
I forget the number of uniform combinations I've worn over the years as a CAP member.  I really don't care what new set comes down the pike.  I got work to do...

Let's see....OG-107 jungle fatigues, regular OD fatigues, BDUs, several different styles of blues (shirt went through 2 changes, jacket about 3, maybe 4), and now the polo. I'm sure others have more, but I'm a basic sandwich kind of a guy.

Yeah, doesn't matter what we wear, we have a job to do. I'm kinda sick of it too. Reminds me of Cyrus from Trailer Park Boys: "**** off, I got work to do."

We've been in the same fundamental uniform combinations (Blues/BDUs) for what, at least 15 years? Sure there's been minor changes along the way (US CAP tapes, or the CSU for those who opted to buy it) but there hasn't been a "go buy a new wardrobe" event in a significant amount of time right?

Seems like a pretty reasonable timeframe to me.

[NIN]

As for the thread itself for all that is holy lock this thread. There is nothing left to say that hasn't been. The decisions have been made, Deal with it. It is the Air Force's freaking uniform and they will decide the future of it in CAP.

OMDL! Methinks this has been the longest conversation about (what I think is) the most insignificant part of CAP ever! With membership levels dropping, funding stagnant, and morale in question, is this the best we can do?
I forget the number of uniform combinations I've worn over the years as a CAP member.  I really don't care what new set comes down the pike.  I got work to do...

Let's see....OG-107 jungle fatigues, regular OD fatigues, BDUs, several different styles of blues (shirt went through 2 changes, jacket about 3, maybe 4), and now the polo. I'm sure others have more, but I'm a basic sandwich kind of a guy.

Yeah, doesn't matter what we wear, we have a job to do. I'm kinda sick of it too. Reminds me of Cyrus from Trailer Park Boys: "**** off, I got work to do."

We've been in the same fundamental uniform combinations (Blues/BDUs) for what, at least 15 years? Sure there's been minor changes along the way (US CAP tapes, or the CSU for those who opted to buy it) but there hasn't been a "go buy a new wardrobe" event in a significant amount of time right?

Seems like a pretty reasonable timeframe to me.

Blues have been essentially what they are since circa 1994 (when we went from the "Tony Nelson" uniform to the "Merrill McPeak" uniform).  BDUs have been like this since circa 1991.

So 25 years for BDUs, and 22 for Blues.  With relatively minor changes in insignia and such (wing patches, flags, hats, cutouts, etc)

[Garibaldi]

As usual an innocent member walks in and asks a question. Instantly every anal retentive barracks room lawyer on of the forum feels compelled to make a comment. Dog piles seem to be the favorite past time of some of the posters. It is just down right mean spirited. And what's worse they seem to enjoy it.

That was kind of why I asked the posted above to clarify.

There is a term for this kind of thing on the internet that is not really appropriate for polite company, but suffice to day, its pretty standard on CAP-Talk:

1) New member registers on CAPTalk
2) Posts question they don't seem to be getting an answer to at their unit, or nobody at the unit knows, etc.
3) Multiple people either go "USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION!" or "YOU'RE WRONG!!!"
4) The new member goes "Well, so much for getting an answer to my question" and goes away.
5) Go to Step 3 and iterate until the participants are exhausted or a moderator finally has enough. 

Yes, there is a point where we do get the same question over and over, but nobody comes into a forum expecting to use the search function (after all, we have the Knowledgebase, right? <ducks>).  Thats why we should probably have a frequently asked questions section. 

"Read the FAQs first, in case your question is one of the x questions that get debated to death here..."

Then its behavioral.  We have to train out the Pavlovian tendency to treat new posters like they're slobbering idiots who can't lift a finger.  CAP is a complicated beast.  I explained it to parent like this  recently: "You're familiar with board games, right?  There are some fairly clear rules, some pieces,  a board with spaces, maybe some dice, you've played them before. Like Monopoly or Chutes & Ladders. Pretty linear A-to-B sort of thing, right?  Ever play Dungeons and Dragons?  You open the box and there are some dice like you've never seen before, some pieces of paper and a thick book of rules that one guy reads and explains to everybody else.  No board, no spaces, no pieces.   Civil Air Patrol is kind of like Dungeons and Dragons: a complex, multi-faceted beast of an organization that has a thick (virtual) binder of rules, policies, procedures, customs, unspoken and unwritten methods, arcane and byzantine stuff, and none of it conforms to what you've seen out of other organizations."

So lets all be helpful experienced game masters to our newbie players, eh?

Maybe we need, as a group, to take a pledge of non-jerkiness with regards to people asking what we consider to be dumb questions.

Something like...if you don't have anything more constructive to say than "HAVE YOU ASKED YOUR CHAIN OF COMMAND? HAVE YOU EVEN HEARD OF THE REGS?", then don't open your hole.

If your intent is to make fun of said poster without contributing something useful, shut your festering gob.

If your intent is to not contribute something useful to the conversation period, throw your keyboard out the window.

I'm guilty of not forwarding the conversation, contributing only my warped humor, from time to time, and I'll attempt to stop it.

I've already stopped berating other members of the board with inane and asinine responses to such innocent questions like "So, when are we getting ABUs?" or "How do I put on my nameplate?" or "wen i wint to inkempmunt i triped while marching us to lunch it was so funnee i lol'd"

I don't see any further use for dogpiling, making people feel like krep for not knowing where to turn. We always say, in person, if you don't know an answer, find out from someone. Why would it be different here? Sure, the regs are out there for anyone to read at their leisure, but who has that kind of time when you can ask a question from someone who HAS read the fargin' things and get your answer quicker, with possibly a nice reference for their edification. "Your nametag goes over the right pocket, resting on the flap. For future reference, all your uniform questions can be answered by looking at CAPM 39-1. It's your BFF from here on out. Also, you can ask anyone in your chain of command at your home unit. They will be more than happy to make you look sharp."

There are many, many people on this board, regular contributors like NIN, Lordmonar, FW, and others that know way more than I do, even with my 20+ years. I don't claim to know everything or even anything better than they do. I do have limited experience to draw on to give my POV but, as we're fond of saying, YMMV. Different wings, different units, do things differently. The way I do things is different from NIN or FW or PHall. It may be right, it may be wrong, but it's always different.

I'm not making a grandiose statement of exit this time, because I'm not leaving and it's just stupid. I'll be around, but posting less and learning more. Darmok and Jalad on the ocean.

[etodd]

I've been on message boards since the early days of dialup BBS systems, so I know not to let certain folks get me down. LOL

I added a better explanation of who I am and what I'm doing in the newbie thread for any who are interested in why I think the way I do. I'll leave it at this and stop hijacking this 30 page thread.

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=135.msg381928#msg381928

Blue skies to all.

[NIN]

I've been on message boards since the early days of dialup BBS systems, so I know not to let certain folks get me down. LOL

I added a better explanation of who I am and what I'm doing in the newbie thread for any who are interested in why I think the way I do. I'll leave it at this and stop hijacking this 30 page thread.

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=135.msg381928#msg381928

Blue skies to all.

Excellent post, BTW. Thanks.  Glad the "festering gobs" didn't scare you off.

And FWIW, before CAPTalk.net the internet forum there was CAP-Talk the email list server and it was... similar.

[SkywalkerRA]

As usual an innocent member walks in and asks a question. Instantly every anal retentive barracks room lawyer on of the forum feels compelled to make a comment. Dog piles seem to be the favorite past time of some of the posters. It is just down right mean spirited. And what's worse they seem to enjoy it.

That was kind of why I asked the posted above to clarify.

There is a term for this kind of thing on the internet that is not really appropriate for polite company, but suffice to day, its pretty standard on CAP-Talk:

1) New member registers on CAPTalk
2) Posts question they don't seem to be getting an answer to at their unit, or nobody at the unit knows, etc.
3) Multiple people either go "USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION!" or "YOU'RE WRONG!!!"
4) The new member goes "Well, so much for getting an answer to my question" and goes away.
5) Go to Step 3 and iterate until the participants are exhausted or a moderator finally has enough. 

Yes, there is a point where we do get the same question over and over, but nobody comes into a forum expecting to use the search function (after all, we have the Knowledgebase, right? <ducks>).  Thats why we should probably have a frequently asked questions section. 

"Read the FAQs first, in case your question is one of the x questions that get debated to death here..."

Then its behavioral.  We have to train out the Pavlovian tendency to treat new posters like they're slobbering idiots who can't lift a finger.  CAP is a complicated beast.  I explained it to parent like this  recently: "You're familiar with board games, right?  There are some fairly clear rules, some pieces,  a board with spaces, maybe some dice, you've played them before. Like Monopoly or Chutes & Ladders. Pretty linear A-to-B sort of thing, right?  Ever play Dungeons and Dragons?  You open the box and there are some dice like you've never seen before, some pieces of paper and a thick book of rules that one guy reads and explains to everybody else.  No board, no spaces, no pieces.   Civil Air Patrol is kind of like Dungeons and Dragons: a complex, multi-faceted beast of an organization that has a thick (virtual) binder of rules, policies, procedures, customs, unspoken and unwritten methods, arcane and byzantine stuff, and none of it conforms to what you've seen out of other organizations."

So lets all be helpful experienced game masters to our newbie players, eh?

Maybe we need, as a group, to take a pledge of non-jerkiness with regards to people asking what we consider to be dumb questions.

Something like...if you don't have anything more constructive to say than "HAVE YOU ASKED YOUR CHAIN OF COMMAND? HAVE YOU EVEN HEARD OF THE REGS?", then don't open your hole.

If your intent is to make fun of said poster without contributing something useful, shut your festering gob.

If your intent is to not contribute something useful to the conversation period, throw your keyboard out the window.

I'm guilty of not forwarding the conversation, contributing only my warped humor, from time to time, and I'll attempt to stop it.

I've already stopped berating other members of the board with inane and asinine responses to such innocent questions like "So, when are we getting ABUs?" or "How do I put on my nameplate?" or "wen i wint to inkempmunt i triped while marching us to lunch it was so funnee i lol'd"

I don't see any further use for dogpiling, making people feel like krep for not knowing where to turn. We always say, in person, if you don't know an answer, find out from someone. Why would it be different here? Sure, the regs are out there for anyone to read at their leisure, but who has that kind of time when you can ask a question from someone who HAS read the fargin' things and get your answer quicker, with possibly a nice reference for their edification. "Your nametag goes over the right pocket, resting on the flap. For future reference, all your uniform questions can be answered by looking at CAPM 39-1. It's your BFF from here on out. Also, you can ask anyone in your chain of command at your home unit. They will be more than happy to make you look sharp."

There are many, many people on this board, regular contributors like NIN, Lordmonar, FW, and others that know way more than I do, even with my 20+ years. I don't claim to know everything or even anything better than they do. I do have limited experience to draw on to give my POV but, as we're fond of saying, YMMV. Different wings, different units, do things differently. The way I do things is different from NIN or FW or PHall. It may be right, it may be wrong, but it's always different.

Yes! I'm still relatively new to CAP and Captalk and I am constantly amazed at what I see posted. I mean, I want to yell sometimes, "We're on the same team, right???"

Before I considered joining CAP I did my research-lots of research-and I ended up on CT (of course.) After being on CT for a short time I remember thinking, "If the people in the squadrons I'm thinking of joining are like this, NO thanks!" So I tabled the idea of CAP and looked at other volunteer opportunities. Eventually my love for aviation won out and I decided I wasn't going to let someone on an online forum get in the way, so I didn't, and I'm glad I joined.

But, it would be good for us to remember that while honest, open discussion is good ... demonizing someone who doesn't know about "the TPS report" may not be the best way to build connection. Everyone on this forum has a mother and/or a boss, a commander....they don't need another one, right?

[Storm Chaser]

Right. I think sometimes it's easy to forget our core value of respect. Discussions are good and we can disagree, we should always be respectful. We also need to remember that some posters may not have the same level of knowledge and experience as some of our more seasoned members, so we need to be more patient and welcoming.

[etodd]

We also need to remember that some posters may not have the same level of knowledge and experience as some of our more seasoned members, so we need to be more patient and welcoming.

And many of the new members may also have different reasons for joining, different goals and different expectations than members who have been around for decades. I'm happy to be at CAP but freely admit I don't fit the cookie cutter some like.

I'm also a volunteer at Habitat for Humanity. I love their 'come as you are, we love to have you here' approach as they hand you a hardhat and hammer. It's all about 'getting the job done'.

[Spam]

Darmok and Jalad on the ocean.

Shaka... when the walls fell. Sigh...

[Holding Pattern]

I keep waiting for the Tenagra memorial tour.

[almostspaatz]

I've already stopped berating other members of the board with inane and asinine responses to such innocent questions like "So, when are we getting ABUs?" or "How do I put on my nameplate?" or "wen i wint to inkempmunt i triped while marching us to lunch it was so funnee i lol'd"

Those are the hardest...needless to say I spit all over my keyboard  :clap:

[Brit_in_CAP]

So lets all be helpful experienced game masters to our newbie players, eh?

:clap: :clap:

Although...Dungeons and Dragons...really, Sir?!
That would make you a Mage of an incredibly high level..
I know this only because I had friends who played, you understand, back (way back) in the day...

[Angus]

So lets all be helpful experienced game masters to our newbie players, eh?

:clap: :clap:

Although...Dungeons and Dragons...really, Sir?!
That would make you a Mage of an incredibly high level..
I know this only because I had friends who played, you understand, back (way back) in the day...

For me I'm more of a Magic The Gathering sort than D&D. 

[NIN]

:clap: :clap:

Although...Dungeons and Dragons...really, Sir?!
That would make you a Mage of an incredibly high level..
I know this only because I had friends who played, you understand, back (way back) in the day...

I use that as an example because WIWAK (When I Was A Kid) my dad came home with that "New hot game, Dungeons and Dragons" (Basic Set, circa 1977 or 1978).

We opened up the box and there was this "big by board game standards" rule book, a couple of polyhedral dice, a couple "character sheets" and not much else.

Our idea of "games" up to that point were things like Life, Monopoly, etc.  Short, easily understood rules, pieces, six-sided dice and a board.  The idea that the "board" was "in your mind" was just so far outside our realm of comprehension (especially my dad's), that we looked it all over for about an hour and finally my dad declared "I can't figure this out" and we never played D&D.

Now, my dad was *never* going to be a D&D DM. Ever. (I have been, subsequently) 

Why? Not because he was dumb, but because the concept of an RPG, the complexity and the scope, was just not something he could generalize by reading the instructions (and a 48-page instruction book? Yeah forget that) to counteract his 30+ years of experience with board games.

And thats the way it is with CAP: there is a lot of complexity and scope.

How did I learn to play D&D and become a DM/GM for RPGs later?  I played with some good DM/GMs and got to see how the game worked. I played with players who were willing to help me learn how to play (instead of just slicing my head off when I pulled a Leroy Jenkins accidentally)

So the hint here is to bring people along with mentoring and coaching.  Its obvious to us for the most part because we've been doing it forever.

But remember that person who doesn't even know there are regulations.   (At least we don't have the "Big Book of Maxwells," the old thick pubs binder, to visually intimdate people and make them run and hide...)

[Garibaldi]

I have one of those heavy binders in my desk

[-_adrian_-]

I thought we were keeping black shirts too?

That was not one of the two "distinguishing modifications" listed for the ABU.

The National Uniform Committee, in coordination with CAP-USAF recommended that CAP ask for Air Force approval to wear the ABU with the following distinguishing modifications:

1.  Name and CAP tapes, aviation and specialty badges would be on a Navy Blue background with silver thread. These colors would be the same as currently in use on the NCO stripes. The NUC examined the possibility of using the ABU tapes. Because our adult members wear the same grade insignia as Air Force Officers, use of the ABU tapes was not considered to be distinguishable in accordance to the AFI. AFJROTC and AFROTC wear the ABU tapes, but they do not wear officer grade insignia. Wing, Unit, and Activity patches would be optional under the proposal.

2.  Black boots. There were many factors in our recommendation to retain the black boots. The first was cost to the membership. Many members already own black boots. Also, black boots are still available at reasonable prices commercially. The green boots cost over $100. Another consideration was asking members to buy a second pair of boots if they chose to wear other uniform combinations. The corporate (blue) uniform has black boots, as do the flight duty uniforms.  The final reason was the black boots provide a further distinguishing factor to the uniform.

Not all of the sage green boots are over a 100 dollars. They are about the same price as the black boots.

[lordmonar]

Not saying you are wrong....but could you provide a link please.

[-_adrian_-]

Why black boots....

Because everyone already has them.  Acceptable Black Boots can be found for under $50 vice the cheapest Sage Boot at $100.

If you can't wear the uniform properly just like the ones that worn it before us, don't bother wearing it.

??

and why silver on dark blue nametapes

For many many years people have complained to the NUC that the Ultramarine Blue looks kind of cartoony.   The Silver on Navy was the most preferred choice.

The white on blue nametapes holds our heritage for many years, it is also a big factor of distinguishing us as CAP.

Heritage....who cares about heritage.   Also "distinguished us as CAP"....from who?

Most black boots that are 50 dollars are junk. I have bought them and they are terrible. Not all of the sage green boots are over 100 dollars. Besides there will be a phase in peroid and are going to have to buy new boots down the line anyway, so why don't we switch now? Also most of those black boots under a 100 dollars are not very good for your feet. Most of the sage green ones were designed to be very comfortable among other things.

[-_adrian_-]

I have a genuine question. What are we going to do with belts? Are we going to continue using the dark blue nylon belt with black buckle or are we going to go to foliage green, sage green, black, or tan?

[lordmonar]

That all depends on what you mean by "junk".

If I got to get my 12 year old into boots that he/she is gonna out grow in a year.....I'll take the $50 junkers please.
If you are talking about me......I will spend the $150 to get a "good" pair that will last me for 10 years.

So there you go.

Also....do you got a link to those cheap sage green boots?