ABU Wear Test

[NIN]

If for whatever reason the ABUs get rejected by the USAF or the dark blue gets rejected by the USAF, is CAP still planning on making the change for the corporate uniform?  Or will CAP approve (again according to the rumor mill) the switch to dark blue tapes before seeking the USAF approval?

It has been a long time since I attended the winter session.  In the past, the CAP-USAF commander would usually attend.  Before the vote session, he would make a comment towards the USAF's point of view.  Did he make a comment on the possible switch?

well, any change to the AF Uniform (even the BDUs) still has to get a blessing from the AF, so I suspect that any and all such changes would be held until the AF signs off on ABUs (or doesn't).  If ABUs don't go, I suspect all will remain status quo.

I wasn't in Washington, so I have no idea what Colonel Tyynismaa might have said (I did see a pic of him speaking, so we do know he talks! LOL) but it is my understanding that CAP-USAF is likely rogered up on most/all of the changes to go forward to HAF since they were spooled up to do the same in 2014 before CAP pulled the package.  Plus, I believe that CAP-USAF has been in on the process the whole time, so if I don't miss my guess, any changes that CAP has even thought about have probably been looked at from a "will CAP-USAF approve this?" stand point before it even leaves the NUC.

[Storm Chaser]

A transition period in which both black boots and sage or tan boots where allowed would mitigate the cost of having to buy new boots right away. I think that's better than keeping the black boots with ABUs, which just look odd.

[PHall]

When the Air Force was transitioning to the ABU there was a 2 or 3 year period where black boots were allowed to be worn with the ABU because of problems with the green boots.
So it's not like the Air Force has never seen black boots with the ABU.

[goblin]

It's also in the AFI.

Exception: If approved by MAJCOM commanders, black leather boots may be temporarily authorized with ABUs in industrial work environments or in work center where industrial products or processes cause irreparable staining to the sage green suede or tan suede boot. This exception is not specifically restricted to flightline activities and is in effect until a stain-resistant green boot becomes available

[Spaceman3750]

It's also in the AFI.

Exception: If approved by MAJCOM commanders, black leather boots may be temporarily authorized with ABUs in industrial work environments or in work center where industrial products or processes cause irreparable staining to the sage green suede or tan suede boot. This exception is not specifically restricted to flightline activities and is in effect until a stain-resistant green boot becomes available

There is a stain resistant green boot now, but the point is still valid.

[NIN]

A transition period in which both black boots and sage or tan boots where allowed would mitigate the cost of having to buy new boots right away. I think that's better than keeping the black boots with ABUs, which just look odd.

We wore white t-shirts for a short time after BDUs came in. Took maybe a year to get that sorted.

[raivo]

We wore white t-shirts for a short time after BDUs came in. Took maybe a year to get that sorted.

I wore a white t-shirt with my BDUs once when I was a brand new cadet who didn't know any better. My flight sergeant informed me that was a "target" and would get me shot.

My first squadron was a little strange.

[Storm Chaser]

We had a transition period in the Air Force with regards to the sage boots. When the ABU was introduced, tan boots where initially allowed, but never black. Black boots were kept for the flight suit for a while, until we fully transitioned to sage green.

[Lem]

Greetings everyone

Pardon my ignorance  but could someone please explain the difference between the ABU's and the ACU's.  I know our local surplus/tactical shop carries some ACU's for the Virginia Defense Force. Not sure if they have any of the ABU's. If and when these are approved to wear I will ask them to check on the availability and cost

Thank you for your time and consideration for this matter

[JeffDG]

A few clarifications.

First:  Boots.  This was discussed.  The black was chosen by the uniform committee for several reasons.  1)  Cost.  The black boots are much lower cost than the suede, 2)  Shining...I believe on Wing/CC said shining boots "builds character", 3)  Uniformity.  All the other uniform combinations in CAP have black boots (BBDU, Flight Suits, etc), and 4)  It's another distinctive element that may assist with compliance with the AFI requiring our AF uniforms to be distinct.

Second:  T-Shirts.  A member of the National CAC asked a question about "performance" T-shirts vs. Cotton.  The answer was that it wasn't specifically addressed, but the assumption was that any under-shirt authorized by the USAF would be available for the ABU, but that would be pending final approval.  Another member of the National CAC had the courage (considering the general preference among the cadet population for the ABUs) to speak against the change, and did so eloquently.

Third:  Wear-out will likely be on the order of 3 years, but again, will be part of the transition plan.

Fourth:  Patches, they discussed no change to wing patches (ie @ option of Wing/CC), a single unit patch, a single "activity" patch, along with nametape and rating (ie wings/GT/etc) patch, either subdued or full colour

Those are just a few notes from a guy sitting in on the meeting.

[JeffDG]

I wasn't in Washington, so I have no idea what Colonel Tyynismaa might have said (I did see a pic of him speaking, so we do know he talks! LOL) but it is my understanding that CAP-USAF is likely rogered up on most/all of the changes to go forward to HAF since they were spooled up to do the same in 2014 before CAP pulled the package.  Plus, I believe that CAP-USAF has been in on the process the whole time, so if I don't miss my guess, any changes that CAP has even thought about have probably been looked at from a "will CAP-USAF approve this?" stand point before it even leaves the NUC.

Col T said that CAP-USAF would be happy to coordinate the request.

Gen Vasquez said he's hopeful, but doesn't want to prejudge what the AF will do with it.

The NUC had AF representation on it, so none of this will be a surprise to them.

[LSThiker]

Greetings everyone

Pardon my ignorance  but could someone please explain the difference between the ABU's and the ACU's.  I know our local surplus/tactical shop carries some ACU's for the Virginia Defense Force. Not sure if they have any of the ABU's. If and when these are approved to wear I will ask them to check on the availability and cost

Thank you for your time and consideration for this matter

ABUs = Airman Battle Uniform (Air Force uniform)
ACUs = Army Combat Uniform (Army uniform)

ABUs, which are cut essentially the same as BDUs, are the Air Force's newest uniform.  They use a tiger stripe pattern:



To make matters muddy, the ACU is not a camouflage pattern.  Rather it is a design and cut of a specific army uniform.  It is cut different than the old BDUs in both the top and bottoms.  The camouflage pattern is called UCP or Universal Camouflage Pattern:



This pattern is being phased out for the Operational Camouflage Pattern or OCP:


So the ACU UCP is being phased out for the ACU OCP.  The uniforms are cut and designed the same but use different camouflage patterns. 

[abdsp51]

So the ACU UCP is being phased out for the ACU OCP.  The uniforms are cut and designed the same but use different camouflage patterns.

Close the Army is/has gone to a pattern known as Skorpion.  Almost identical to multi-cam(OCP)  but enough of a variation to avoid a lawsuit.

[LSThiker]

So the ACU UCP is being phased out for the ACU OCP.  The uniforms are cut and designed the same but use different camouflage patterns.

Close the Army is/has gone to a pattern known as Skorpion.  Almost identical to multi-cam(OCP)  but enough of a variation to avoid a lawsuit.

Kind of.  The Army is still calling it the OCP in a generic sense.  It is just further clarified using the Trade-Names as Multi-Cam OCP and Scorpion W2 OCP.  Both of which are OCP.

Not exactly "official" but a good enough explanation.
http://soldiersystems.net/2014/10/03/ocp-is-ocp-confused-yet/ 


Here is the confusing ALARACT:

ALARACT 085/2015

DTG: R 012016Z JUN 15

UNCLAS

SUBJ/ALARACT 085/2015 – TRANSITION TO OPERATIONAL CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN ARMY COMBAT UNIFORM (ACU) ENSEMBLE

THIS ALARACT MESSAGE HAS BEEN TRANSMITTED BY USAITA ON BEHALF OF HQDA DCS G-4//DALO-SUT//

(U) REFERENCES.

A. ARMY POSTURE STATEMENT, 2013

B. ARMY CAMPAIGN PLAN, 2013

C. AR 670-1, 10 APRIL 2015

D. DA PAM 670-1, 10 APRIL 2015

E. HOUSE REPORT 111-151, SEPTEMBER 2009

1. (U) THE PURPOSE OF THIS MESSAGE IS TO PROVIDE INFORMATION ON THE TRANSITION FROM THE UNIVERSAL CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN AND OPERATION ENDURING FREEDOM CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN ACU TO THE OPERATIONAL CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN ACU. THIS MESSAGE ALSO PROVIDES GUIDANCE ON THE WEAR OF THE OPERATIONAL CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN ACU ENSEMBLE AS APPROVED BY THE SECRETARY OF ARMY AND CHIEF OF STAFF OF THE ARMY ON 1 MAY 2014. POLICY CONTAINED IN THIS MESSAGE IS EFFECTIVE 1 JULY 2015. PREVIOUSLY GRANTED EXCEPTIONS TO POLICY FOR WEAR OF THE OPERATION ENDURING FREEDOM CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN UNIFORM OUTSIDE OF COMBAT AREAS OF OPERATIONS REMAIN IN EFFECT.

2. (U) DURING THE TRANSITION PERIOD, SOLDIERS ARE AUTHORIZED TO WEAR ANY OF THE THREE CAMOUFLAGE PATTERNS OF THE ACU (UNIVERSAL CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN, OPERATION ENDURING FREEDOM CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN, AND THE OPERATIONAL CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN). ALL COMPONENTS OF THE UNIFORM MUST BE OF THE SAME CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN UNLESS OTHERWISE STATED IN THIS MESSAGE. COMMANDERS WILL NOT REQUIRE SOLDIERS TO PURCHASE SPECIFIC UNIFORM ITEMS PRIOR TO THE MANDATORY POSSESSION DATE LISTED IN PARAGRAPH 10 BELOW.

3. (U) THE OPERATIONAL CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN ACU ENSEMBLE CONSISTS OF THE FOLLOWING ITEMS:

3.A. COAT
3.B. TROUSERS
3.C. UNDERSHIRT (TAN 499)
3.D. BELT, RIGGER (TAN 499)
3.E. DRAWERS (TAN 499)
3.F. SOCKS, TAN, GREEN OR BLACK, CUSHION SOLE
3.G. BOOTS, COMBAT, COYOTE COLOR
3.H. HEADGEAR

4. (U) ACU WEAR POLICY. THERE IS NO CHANGE TO CURRENT WEAR POLICY (AR 670-1) EXCEPT AS NOTED BELOW.

4.A. DURING THE TRANSITION PERIOD, CLOTHING INITIAL ISSUE POINTS ARE AUTHORIZED TO CONTINUE TO ISSUE TO INITIAL ENTRY TRAINING SOLDIERS THE TAN/SAND COLORED UNDERGARMENTS WITH THE OPERATIONAL CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN ACU. SOLDIERS ARE AUTHORIZED TO WEAR THE SAND UNDERSHIRT; WHITE, TAN OR BROWN DRAWERS; SAND RIGGER BELT; AND TAN COMBAT BOOTS WITH THE OPERATION ENDURING FREEDOM AND/OR OPERATIONAL CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN ACU COAT AND TROUSERS. THE TAN 499 UNDERSHIRT, TAN 499 RIGGER BELT, AND COYOTE COMBAT BOOTS ARE NOT AUTHORIZED FOR WEAR WITH THE UNIVERSAL CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN COAT AND TROUSERS.

4.B. THE EXCEPTIONS OUTLINED ABOVE ALSO APPLIES TO THE COMBAT VEHICLE CREWMAN UNIFORM, MECHANIC COVERALLS, AND THE ARMY AIRCREW COMBAT UNIFORM (A2CU).

5. (U) INSIGNIA AND ACCOUTERMENTS WORN ON THE ACU MUST BE OF THE CORRESPONDING CAMOUFLAGES PATTERN COLOR. THE BACKGROUND MATERIAL OF NAME TAPES, SHOULDER SLEEVE INSIGNIA, TABS, GRADE INSIGNIA, FORMER WARTIME SERVICE, AND SEW-ON BADGES WILL MATCH THE CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN OF THE UNIFORM.

6. (U) THE RAPID FIELDING INITIATIVE WILL CONTINUE TO ISSUE SOLDIERS FLAME RESISTANT ARMY COMBAT UNIFORMS IN THE OPERATION ENDURING FREEDOM CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN UNTIL INVENTORIES ARE EXHAUSTED.

7. (U) THE ARMY'S PLAN TO TRANSITION TO THE OPERATIONAL CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN ACU STARTING 1 JULY 2015 AND END 1 OCTOBER 2019. THE OPERATIONAL CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN ACU WILL BE AVAILABLE AS FOLLOWS:

7.A. (U) IN ARMY MILITARY CLOTHING STORES (AMCS) BY INSTALLATION IAW THE ENCLOSED APPENDIX. DA FORM 3078 PERSONAL CLOTHING REQUESTS WILL NOT BE ACCEPTED FOR OPERATIONAL CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN ACU UNTIL JANUARY 2016. EXCEPTIONS TO POLICY PRIOR TO THE START DATE WILL ONLY BE GRANTED BY THE CLOTHING AND SERVICES OFFICE.

7.B. AT THE CLOTHING INITIAL ISSUE POINT LOCATIONS FOR INITIAL ENTRY TRAINING SOLDIERS IN 2QFY16.

7.C. FOR SOLDIERS (ACTIVE DUTY AND UNITED STATES ARMY RESERVE (USAR)) ON ORDERS TO PERFORM DRILL SERGEANT DUTIES AND ADVANCED INDIVIDUAL TRAINING PLATOON SERGEANTS ARE AUTHORIZED TO OBTAIN THEIR SUPPLEMENTAL ISSUE OF THE OPERATIONAL CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN ACU FROM THEIR LOCAL AMCS BEGINNING ON 15 DECEMBER 2015 (1QFY16) AND HAVE 90 DAYS TO DRAW THEIR SUPPLEMENTAL ISSUE IN ACCORDANCE WITH COMMON TABLE ALLOWANCES 50-900, TABLE NUMBER 3.

7.D. AT THE CLOTHING CENTRAL DISTRIBUTION FACILITY AT THE KENTUCKY LOGISTICS OPERATIONS CENTER FOR ARMY NATIONAL GUARD, USAR, AND SENIOR RESERVE OFFICER TRAINING CORPS IN 4QFY16.

8. (U) THE WEAR OUT DATE FOR THE UNIVERSAL CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN ACU IS 30 SEPTEMBER 2019.

9. (U) THE MANDATORY POSSESSION DATE FOR THE OPERATIONAL CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN ACU IS 1 OCTOBER 2019.

10. (U) HQDA G-1 POC FOR UNIFORM WEAR POLICY IS SGM EVA COMMONS, DSN: 312-225-5473, COMMERCIAL: (703) 695-5473, OR E-MAIL: EVA.M.COMMONS.MIL@MAIL.MIL. HQDA G-4 POC IS MAJ DANNY PADELLO, DSN: 224-2718, COMMERCIAL: (703) 614-2718, OR E-MAIL: DANIEL.E.PADELLO.MIL@MAIL.MIL.

11. (U) THIS MESSAGE HAS BEEN AUTHORIZED BY THE ARMY G-1 AND ARMY G-4.

12. (U) THE DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF, G-1 IS THE PROPONENT OF WEAR AND APPEARANCE OF ARMY UNIFORMS AND INSIGNIA POLICY AND WILL INCORPORATE THE GUIDANCE IN THIS MESSAGE INTO REFERENCE D BY 1 JULY 2015.

13. (U) THIS MESSAGE EXPIRES 15 MAY 2016.

[abdsp51]

So the ACU UCP is being phased out for the ACU OCP.  The uniforms are cut and designed the same but use different camouflage patterns.

Close the Army is/has gone to a pattern known as Skorpion.  Almost identical to multi-cam(OCP)  but enough of a variation to avoid a lawsuit.

Kind of.  The Army is still calling it the OCP in a generic sense.  It is just further clarified using the Trade-Names as Multi-Cam OCP and Scorpion W2 OCP.  Both of which are OCP.

Not exactly "official" but a good enough explanation.
http://soldiersystems.net/2014/10/03/ocp-is-ocp-confused-yet/

They can call it OCP all they want.  There a slight variation between the multicam and scorpion due to the Army/DOD not wanting to pay the licensing fees.

[LSThiker]

So the ACU UCP is being phased out for the ACU OCP.  The uniforms are cut and designed the same but use different camouflage patterns.

Close the Army is/has gone to a pattern known as Skorpion.  Almost identical to multi-cam(OCP)  but enough of a variation to avoid a lawsuit.

Kind of.  The Army is still calling it the OCP in a generic sense.  It is just further clarified using the Trade-Names as Multi-Cam OCP and Scorpion W2 OCP.  Both of which are OCP.

Not exactly "official" but a good enough explanation.
http://soldiersystems.net/2014/10/03/ocp-is-ocp-confused-yet/

They can call it OCP all they want.  There a slight variation between the multicam and scorpion due to the Army/DOD not wanting to pay the licensing fees.

Did not say there was not.  Not even arguing that. 

So my point still stands that the Army is phasing out the ACU UCP for the ACU OCP.

But right now all three patterns are allowed.  Ultimately, just the ACU OCP Scorpion W2 will be allowed.   

[Holding Pattern]

2)  Shining...I believe on Wing/CC said shining boots "builds character",

:clap:

[lordmonar]

So the ACU UCP is being phased out for the ACU OCP.  The uniforms are cut and designed the same but use different camouflage patterns.

Close the Army is/has gone to a pattern known as Skorpion.  Almost identical to multi-cam(OCP)  but enough of a variation to avoid a lawsuit.

Actually it was the other way around if I'm not mistaken.

The Army got Crye Precision to make the Skorpion pattern as part of the ACU testing.   Afterward Crye made changes and marketed the Multi-cam patter.

[NIN]

,2)  Shining...I believe on Wing/CC said shining boots "builds character"

If that's the case, I have an over abundance of it. Anybody need some?

[Майор Хаткевич]

,2)  Shining...I believe on Wing/CC said shining boots "builds character"

If that's the case, I have an over abundance of it. Anybody need some?

Yea, that's some FMJ-Generation reasoning for keeping the boots...