ABU Wear Test

[Майор Хаткевич]

That general is Air Guard (I believe) and was ordered by Christie to shape up after this.  If it is the recent story I am remembering.

He was reprimanded by the Pentagon for failing the waist measurement test. They don't care what he looks like as long as he makes tape, basically. He ended up passing this week I believe.

[winterg]

Had to find the article. 

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/chris-christie-national-guard_56015404e4b00310edf876f0

[kwe1009]

Simple question:  Why do so many CAP members want to switch from a uniform that was mostly loved by those military members who wore it to ABUs?  The ABU is almost universally hated by those forced to wear it because it is uncomfortable, expensive, and the boots are difficult to keep clean if you wear them in the field.

[Holding Pattern]

Simple question:  Why do so many CAP members want to switch from a uniform that was mostly loved by those military members who wore it to ABUs?  The ABU is almost universally hated by those forced to wear it because it is uncomfortable, expensive, and the boots are difficult to keep clean if you wear them in the field.

Uniformity and availability.

[Garibaldi]

Simple question:  Why do so many CAP members want to switch from a uniform that was mostly loved by those military members who wore it to ABUs?  The ABU is almost universally hated by those forced to wear it because it is uncomfortable, expensive, and the boots are difficult to keep clean if you wear them in the field.

In a word: change.

In a few more words, cadets and not a few seniors think they are kewl. A lot of SMs, myself included, are tired of the quality of the current BDUs, as the real military issue uniforms are becoming harder to find than a large pizza at a Weight Watcher's convention. Some more SMs, who either are currently AD, Reserve, or just out of the AF, are sick to death of them, much in the way many soldiers, sailors, Marines and airmen are sick to death of wearing a uniform day in, day out. I knew a SM in Arkansas who wore nothing but the smurf suit. I asked him why, and he said after 25+ years of wearing his AF uniform, he was sick to death of it and would proudly wear the smurf suit until he** froze over, or in his case, when they were phased out.

Personally, I don't care if we get rid of BDUs and go with the ABU OR the BBDU. I'm getting too fat and fuzzy to wear the AF style uniform and I can't seem to lose weight for the life of me. Just give me something to wear and I'm cool.

[Storm Chaser]

And the debate never ends...

I currently wear BDUs. I've contemplated wearing BBDUs, but I own several BDU sets, and haven't had the need to spend extra money for a set of BBDUs. That said, if CAP one day decides we're moving to BBDUs as our sole utility/field uniform, I'd gladly spend the money. But I'm also not opposed to wearing the ABUs. I just wish we got away from so many styles of uniforms that are not uniformed at all.

In addition, if we are going to wear the ABU, I hope we don't make it any more "distinctive" and ugly than it needs to be. I like black boots, but I don't think they look good with ABUs. There's a reason none of the Armed Forces, with the exception of the Navy and Coast Guard for obvious reasons, are wearing black boots with their current utility uniforms. Adopting green sage boots means many of our members will be able to get them at Surplus Stores, Airman Attics, or donated by current and former Air Force members. If we go to tan boots, which the Air Force authorized in the beginning of the ABU adoption, then we'll have even more procurement sources, as the Army wears these.

The same goes for black t-shirts. Why would we want to wear those with this uniform? If we're not to wear the tan t-shirts worn by the Air Force, then I would argue for navy blue to match the grade insignias, badges, and Civil Air Patrol and name tapes. Which brings me to my last point. Why would we want to wear the same ultramarine color on ABUs? I get that it would same money, but it just doesn't look good. If we have to be distinctive, lets move to navy blue for both ABUs and BBDUs.

[lordmonar]

Simple question:  Why do so many CAP members want to switch from a uniform that was mostly loved by those military members who wore it to ABUs?  The ABU is almost universally hated by those forced to wear it because it is uncomfortable, expensive, and the boots are difficult to keep clean if you wear them in the field.

a) We want to look like our parent organization. b) your assumption that the BDU was "mostly loved" is not true.  Ask the right age of military personnel and a large number of them would love to go back to the ODs.   c) Your assumption that the ABUs are "almost universally hated" is also false.   I loved my ABUs.  They were much easier to take care of.   They may have been more expensive to buy....but when you factored in that I did not have to dry clean them I saved hundreds of dollars over the lifetime of the uniforms.   Add to that the time saved from having to polish boots.   As for keeping the boots clean......brush them off and you are good to go!

[kwe1009]

And the debate never ends...

I currently wear BDUs. I've contemplated wearing BBDUs, but I own several BDU sets, and haven't had the need to spend extra money for a set of BBDUs. That said, if CAP one day decides we're moving to BBDUs as our sole utility/field uniform, I'd gladly spend the money. But I'm also not opposed to wearing the ABUs. I just wish we got away from so many styles of uniforms that are not uniformed at all.

In addition, if we are going to wear the ABU, I hope we don't make it any more "distinctive" and ugly than it needs to be. I like black boots, but I don't think they look good with ABUs. There's a reason none of the Armed Forces, with the exception of the Navy and Coast Guard for obvious reasons, are wearing black boots with their current utility uniforms. Adopting green sage boots means many of our members will be able to get them at Surplus Stores, Airman Attics, or donated by current and former Air Force members. If we go to tan boots, which the Air Force authorized in the beginning of the ABU adoption, then we'll have even more procurement sources, as the Army wears these.

The same goes for black t-shirts. Why would we want to wear those with this uniform? If we're not to wear the tan t-shirts worn by the Air Force, then I would argue for navy blue to match the grade insignias, badges, and Civil Air Patrol and name tapes. Which brings me to my last point. Why would we want to wear the same ultramarine color on ABUs? I get that it would same money, but it just doesn't look good. If we have to be distinctive, lets move to navy blue for both ABUs and BBDUs.

Good points.  I would suggest that we stick with black boots no matter what uniform CAP decides for us.  They are easy to find almost anywhere and pretty inexpensive.  The problem with the tan or sage boots is keeping them clean after tromping through the mud on an ES mission/activity.  Black boots can be easily wiped off and polished. 

While sage boots and ABUs may be easy to come by near an Air Force base, the same can't be said for those locations far away from any military base.  They will never be seen in quantities like the BDU simply because they will not be manufactured in those numbers.  The market will dry up as soon as the Air Force moves to another pattern.

Price is another issue.  The ABU runs about $100 for a hat, shirt, and pants ($80 from AAFES).  The Sage boots are $100 and up.  The BDU on Vanguard is only $82 and you can find black boots for $35 and up.  So the cost difference (new items only) between ABU and BDU is around $83 for the ABU.  With the new Curry Blues Voucher not covering as much of the cost of blues as the old way, the cost to be a cadet would skyrocket and for really no good reason.  It is still easy to find new BDUs and they are cheaper than ABUs.  Don't forget if we switch to ABU, that will likely mean new cold weather gear as the BDU field jackets and Gortex won't be authorized.  That can easily add another $200 to the overall cost to get an APECS jacket.

I always felt silly wearing the ABU because it doesn't camouflage you from anything.

At the end of the day there is really only one reason to move to ABUs, people think they will look cool. 

[lordmonar]

I always felt silly wearing the ABU because it doesn't camouflage you from anything.

At the end of the day there is really only one reason to move to ABUs, people think they will look cool.

No....the ABU camouflage you from everything.   That is what a universal camouflage pattern is supposed to do.

And finally.....what is wrong with wanting to look cool?  Is that not one of the reasons why uniforms were invented in the first place?

[Garibaldi]

People keep quoting prices for NEW ABUs. When this kerfuffle all started, I went and bought an entire set, minus insignia, for under $60. Used, off Evil Bay and local sources. It can happen that some will choose new, because airman/nco stripes are hard to remove without leaving signs, and surely they are going to spend a lot. We have suffered with used BDUs from DRMO, surplus stores, and donations, that have had badges ripped off and stitch remnants, which makes them unserviceable for the most part. I'm sure we'll encounter that issue when and if the time comes with the ABU as well.

But it can be done. Let's end this debate for now, until it becomes more of a reality. Then we can begin trashing the subject again.

Seacrest out.

[kwe1009]

Simple question:  Why do so many CAP members want to switch from a uniform that was mostly loved by those military members who wore it to ABUs?  The ABU is almost universally hated by those forced to wear it because it is uncomfortable, expensive, and the boots are difficult to keep clean if you wear them in the field.

a) We want to look like our parent organization. b) your assumption that the BDU was "mostly loved" is not true.  Ask the right age of military personnel and a large number of them would love to go back to the ODs.   c) Your assumption that the ABUs are "almost universally hated" is also false.   I loved my ABUs.  They were much easier to take care of.   They may have been more expensive to buy....but when you factored in that I did not have to dry clean them I saved hundreds of dollars over the lifetime of the uniforms.   Add to that the time saved from having to polish boots.   As for keeping the boots clean......brush them off and you are good to go!

I would love to go back to ODs as well (or DCU).  I never said that the BDU was the most loved uniform ever.  I said "mostly loved" and I don't recall ever hearing anyone complain about the fit.  I heard lots of complaints about the price compared to the ODs but they were cheaper than ABUs.  I honestly haven't come across anyone who would say they liked the ABU over the BDU.  The BDU is just as easy to care for as the ABU.  I wash and dry them the same way, no issues.  No ironing really needed for the BDU unless you got the summer weights.  I never dry cleaned my BDUs.  I never spent more than 15 minutes/week polishing boots and they stayed highly polished and shiny. 

[lordmonar]

Simple question:  Why do so many CAP members want to switch from a uniform that was mostly loved by those military members who wore it to ABUs?  The ABU is almost universally hated by those forced to wear it because it is uncomfortable, expensive, and the boots are difficult to keep clean if you wear them in the field.

a) We want to look like our parent organization. b) your assumption that the BDU was "mostly loved" is not true.  Ask the right age of military personnel and a large number of them would love to go back to the ODs.   c) Your assumption that the ABUs are "almost universally hated" is also false.   I loved my ABUs.  They were much easier to take care of.   They may have been more expensive to buy....but when you factored in that I did not have to dry clean them I saved hundreds of dollars over the lifetime of the uniforms.   Add to that the time saved from having to polish boots.   As for keeping the boots clean......brush them off and you are good to go!

I would love to go back to ODs as well (or DCU).  I never said that the BDU was the most loved uniform ever.  I said "mostly loved" and I don't recall ever hearing anyone complain about the fit.  I heard lots of complaints about the price compared to the ODs but they were cheaper than ABUs.  I honestly haven't come across anyone who would say they liked the ABU over the BDU.  The BDU is just as easy to care for as the ABU.  I wash and dry them the same way, no issues.  No ironing really needed for the BDU unless you got the summer weights.  I never dry cleaned my BDUs.  I never spent more than 15 minutes/week polishing boots and they stayed highly polished and shiny.

I liked ABUs better then BDUs.   So you can't say that anymore.   And while YMMV on how much you were able to get away with on AD in taking care of your BDUs....not everyone lived in the same Air Force.   ABUs cut a lot of expense and time saving from my Air Force life.

[TarRiverRat]

I still say if we are going to go to an updated or different uniform then we need to go to one that ALL members can wear and not a select few.  If not all members can wear the BDU or the ABU then we all need to go to one that we can.  BBDU fits that bill.

[lordmonar]

I still say if we are going to go to an updated or different uniform then we need to go to one that ALL members can wear and not a select few.  If not all members can wear the BDU or the ABU then we all need to go to one that we can.  BBDU fits that bill.

Or......we could just tell those who refuse to meet standards "thanks for playing", 

The problem is......looking like the USAF IS  important to our rank and file.   And doing away with the USAF style uniforms will affect the membership and the nature of CAP.

The status quo is and always has been a compromise between these two issues.

If we went all corporate a not insignificant number of members would quit.
The USAF says you must meeting weight and grooming standards to wear their uniform.....so we would have to kick out a not insignificant number of members to go all USAF uniforms.

If you can figure out how to solve one or the other of these problems.....I'm all ears.

[Holding Pattern]

I still say if we are going to go to an updated or different uniform then we need to go to one that ALL members can wear and not a select few.  If not all members can wear the BDU or the ABU then we all need to go to one that we can.  BBDU fits that bill.

Or......we could just tell those who refuse to meet standards "thanks for playing", 

The problem is......looking like the USAF IS  important to our rank and file.   And doing away with the USAF style uniforms will affect the membership and the nature of CAP.

The status quo is and always has been a compromise between these two issues.

If we went all corporate a not insignificant number of members would quit.
The USAF says you must meeting weight and grooming standards to wear their uniform.....so we would have to kick out a not insignificant number of members to go all USAF uniforms.

If you can figure out how to solve one or the other of these problems.....I'm all ears.

Make an optional CAP distinctive uniform that is worth wearing?

[Storm Chaser]

I still say if we are going to go to an updated or different uniform then we need to go to one that ALL members can wear and not a select few.  If not all members can wear the BDU or the ABU then we all need to go to one that we can.  BBDU fits that bill.

Or......we could just tell those who refuse to meet standards "thanks for playing", 
If we went all corporate a not insignificant number of members would quit.

Can you show exact numbers? How do you know this for a fact? Have you or CAP ever conducted an official survey?

I know some people may be in for the uniform, but I'm not convinced it's the majority, at least not in the senior member side. Of course, every squadron, group and wing is different. In my group, most senior members wear corporate uniforms as a choice. Many, if not most, prefer the polo combination. I know in other groups/units, most wear Air Force-style uniforms instead. They want to look more military. But what are the actual numbers?

The reason many members don't like the corporate uniforms is because they're not true equivalents to their Air Force-style counterparts. Those who care about looking more military want a flight cap and a service dress jacket for their corporate uniform. They also want standardized pants. If we had a good-looking, professional corporate uniform that showed our link to the Air Force and our CAP heritage, how many people would actually leave CAP because of the uniform?

I agree that no solution is a perfect solution. Eliminate the Air Force-style uniform and many members (How many? I don't know) may chose to leave CAP. Eliminate the corporate uniform and many members will have to leave CAP. Keep the status quo and we may keep the current members and continue to have these debates and discussions about uniforms. We'll continue to focus on the wrong things.

But what about the future? That's the real question we need to ask. We know the status quo keeps things relatively unchanged in the present. But would a single, standardized, professional looking uniform that every member can wear with pride, one that doesn't discriminate against half of our senior membership and doesn't forget about our link to the Air Force, be better for CAP in the long run?

[sarmed1]

As an AF guy, I am ok with the idea of one uniform.  I have no problem with CAP attempting to follow the reasonable appearance standard much like the USAF does.  That at least will solve most weight related concerns and the medical associated issues.  I would say draw the line at grooming issues.  You like long hair and a beard, too bad:  cut it and shave it.  You have 10 holes in your ear, too bad, take them out for CAP.

mk

 

[Fubar]

Make an optional CAP distinctive uniform that is worth wearing?

You'd loose the folks who are in this organization to look like they're in the military, as our corporate variations need to be civilian in nature (otherwise, the USAF wouldn't have an issue with everyone looking military in their USAF-style uniform). What's tough to predict are the percentages on how CAP overall would be impacted.

For example, what percentage of the membership currently regularly wears USAF-style uniforms (ignoring for the moment if they are within regulations to do so). From that, what percentage would quit if they were no longer allowed to look very similar to someone in the armed forces? From there, you should also consider what percentage of the folks quitting are worth having anyway (are they the hard working squadron staffers who also enjoy creases and shined shoes, or only the guys who show up with all their ribbons and contribute nothing)?

I doubt anybody can predict the percentages well enough to know if we should make any changes or not. Let's say 50% of the membership is wearing USAF-style uniforms, but only 10% of them would quit, and then only 1% of the quitters are actively contributing? Compared to 75% of the membership is likes to wear USAF-style uniforms, 80% of them would quit if they went away, and over half of them are actively contributing to the organization?

Plus you have some cultural biases within wings. In mine, for seniors the polo rules the day, with the rare flight suit or BDU sprinkled in. Cadets by rule are 100% USAF-style. In my wing, moving to a true uniform would have minimal impact on seniors, but a reasonable person can't conclude what's good for my wing will work nationwide. I have no idea what cadets would do in response to moving to one non-military uniform (look how they reacted to dropping the American flag from BDUs).

I don't know how one could make informed decisions about this without obtaining some polling data, but I have no idea what the accuracy is for that sort of thing.

There are no easy answers, if there were, 90% of the discussion topics on this board wouldn't be wasted upon a topic that provides little operational impact for our organization because we'd have a uniform we'd all be happy with. Until then, the current compromise is what we're stuck with.

[goblin]

Make an optional CAP distinctive uniform that is worth wearing?

You'd loose the folks who are in this organization to look like they're in the military...

Good!

Is that really a member you want in the program?  One who is only interested in playing military and would quit if he/she couldn't?

[Luis R. Ramos]

What is wrong with that, as long as (s)he is doing a job in the squadron?

If CAP keeps the sane missions, ie Aerospace, ES, and Cadet Programs, who would be best to motivate and coach cadets? A member with no military knowledge, or a member who is interested in the program because of that connection?