ABU Wear Test

[Garibaldi]

Our Christmas party was last night, and COL Greenwood, NUC chair and our wing CC was a guest. Having never met the man personally, I went up to him and introduced myself. I'm assuming he is incredibly tired of talking about uniforms, because when I mentioned the last NUC member I met was my former ARWG CC, and proceeded to tell him the story about what HE said the last time ABUs were on the table, he interrupted me and said, quite bluntly, "Don't mention those things to me right now. Please. Don't."

It's apparently a very tender topic for members of the NUC. People are either blasting the idea, peppering the NUC members with questions and suggestions, or asking when when when when (most likely cadets). If the responses here on CAPTalk are indicative of the types of questions/suggestions they get, I feel bad for them.

[JeffDG]

Our Christmas party was last night, and COL Greenwood, NUC chair and our wing CC was a guest. Having never met the man personally, I went up to him and introduced myself. I'm assuming he is incredibly tired of talking about uniforms, because when I mentioned the last NUC member I met was my former ARWG CC, and proceeded to tell him the story about what HE said the last time ABUs were on the table, he interrupted me and said, quite bluntly, "Don't mention those things to me right now. Please. Don't."

It's apparently a very tender topic for members of the NUC. People are either blasting the idea, peppering the NUC members with questions and suggestions, or asking when when when when (most likely cadets). If the responses here on CAPTalk are indicative of the types of questions/suggestions they get, I feel bad for them.

I've met Col Greenwood a couple of times, and really like him.  But he has to have been "[darnit], why did they put my name in that announcement."

If it were up to me, the membership of the NUC would be strictly confidential information.  The amount of crap they have to deal with is not worth it!

[THRAWN]

Our Christmas party was last night, and COL Greenwood, NUC chair and our wing CC was a guest. Having never met the man personally, I went up to him and introduced myself. I'm assuming he is incredibly tired of talking about uniforms, because when I mentioned the last NUC member I met was my former ARWG CC, and proceeded to tell him the story about what HE said the last time ABUs were on the table, he interrupted me and said, quite bluntly, "Don't mention those things to me right now. Please. Don't."

It's apparently a very tender topic for members of the NUC. People are either blasting the idea, peppering the NUC members with questions and suggestions, or asking when when when when (most likely cadets). If the responses here on CAPTalk are indicative of the types of questions/suggestions they get, I feel bad for them.

I've met Col Greenwood a couple of times, and really like him.  But he has to have been "[darnit], why did they put my name in that announcement."

If it were up to me, the membership of the NUC would be strictly confidential information.  The amount of crap they have to deal with is not worth it!

If it's too much crap, DON'T DO IT! Nobody is putting the sword to anyone to force them to be on the NUC. Guess listening to the concerns of the membership is "too much crap"...

[TheSkyHornet]

Our Christmas party was last night, and COL Greenwood, NUC chair and our wing CC was a guest. Having never met the man personally, I went up to him and introduced myself. I'm assuming he is incredibly tired of talking about uniforms, because when I mentioned the last NUC member I met was my former ARWG CC, and proceeded to tell him the story about what HE said the last time ABUs were on the table, he interrupted me and said, quite bluntly, "Don't mention those things to me right now. Please. Don't."

It's apparently a very tender topic for members of the NUC. People are either blasting the idea, peppering the NUC members with questions and suggestions, or asking when when when when (most likely cadets). If the responses here on CAPTalk are indicative of the types of questions/suggestions they get, I feel bad for them.

I've met Col Greenwood a couple of times, and really like him.  But he has to have been "[darnit], why did they put my name in that announcement."

If it were up to me, the membership of the NUC would be strictly confidential information.  The amount of crap they have to deal with is not worth it!

If it's too much crap, DON'T DO IT! Nobody is putting the sword to anyone to force them to be on the NUC. Guess listening to the concerns of the membership is "too much crap"...

Agreed. Even if you don't want to hear it, hear it anyway, and then provide your response. It would be best to respond with "It's not subject I should talk about right now since we are still in discussions and I shouldn't share much information." Don't brush off a question just because you're tired of hearing it asked. The person asking doesn't know times you've been asked.

On that note, was it the proper time and place to bring it up?

[Garibaldi]

Our Christmas party was last night, and COL Greenwood, NUC chair and our wing CC was a guest. Having never met the man personally, I went up to him and introduced myself. I'm assuming he is incredibly tired of talking about uniforms, because when I mentioned the last NUC member I met was my former ARWG CC, and proceeded to tell him the story about what HE said the last time ABUs were on the table, he interrupted me and said, quite bluntly, "Don't mention those things to me right now. Please. Don't."

It's apparently a very tender topic for members of the NUC. People are either blasting the idea, peppering the NUC members with questions and suggestions, or asking when when when when (most likely cadets). If the responses here on CAPTalk are indicative of the types of questions/suggestions they get, I feel bad for them.

I've met Col Greenwood a couple of times, and really like him.  But he has to have been "[darnit], why did they put my name in that announcement."

If it were up to me, the membership of the NUC would be strictly confidential information.  The amount of crap they have to deal with is not worth it!

If it's too much crap, DON'T DO IT! Nobody is putting the sword to anyone to force them to be on the NUC. Guess listening to the concerns of the membership is "too much crap"...

Agreed. Even if you don't want to hear it, hear it anyway, and then provide your response. It would be best to respond with "It's not subject I should talk about right now since we are still in discussions and I shouldn't share much information." Don't brush off a question just because you're tired of hearing it asked. The person asking doesn't know times you've been asked.

On that note, was it the proper time and place to bring it up?

I left out the context. Silly me. The conversation went somewhat like this:

"Nice to meet you finally, sir. The last wing commander in GAWG I met was ________ in the 80s."
"Oh, yeah, that was a long time ago. I remember him.'
"Actually, the last wing CC I met was when I was in Arkansas, COL Alexander. He was also on the NUC."
"I remember him."
"Funny story...when I first met him, ABUs were the hot topic too. Basically, he came in, sat down and said 'the first person that mentions ABUs, I will demote them and throw them out.'"
"Please don't mention them right now. Just. Don't."
"Understood. I wonder when they're going to start serving dinner..."

And no one mentioned them again.

[TarRiverRat]

Just my humble opinion, but I wish they would spend more time on finding a uniform that everyone can wear and get off of this ABU nonsense.  It would be nice if everyone in CAP was uniformed for a change.  I am one that will not be able to wear the ABU or the current woodland BDU due to my weight at this time.  I have a health problem and the meds packed on the weight.  I am losing my weight and will hopefully meet the standards this coming year, but with that being said, I will not wear the ABUs or the standard BDU.  I will stick with the BBDU since that is the CAP distinctive uniform.

[NIN]

If it's too much crap, DON'T DO IT! Nobody is putting the sword to anyone to force them to be on the NUC. Guess listening to the concerns of the membership is "too much crap"...

OTOH, if you knew what kind of outright disrespectful and hate-filled emails that Colonel Griffith. the previous NUC chair, got about the US Flag removal when the last 39-1 came out, it might actually shake your opinion about how well our membership base embrace our core values...

There is "listening to the membership," and then there is wading thru dozens upon dozens of "you must be one of those anti-Americans!" emails just because your committee elected to simplify the uniform and bring it back to a wear method close to that which the USAF (not the Army) uses.

I had lunch at Orlando one day with Colonel Griffith and let me tell you. You better have some thick skin to take that particular job.

[NIN]

BTW, I went looking for this. Its para 1-1 from the 1989 CAPM 39-1.  Somehow, over the years, the highlighted passage fell out of both the USAF and CAP uniform manuals. (argh, standby, the attachment was borked)

https://imgur.com/nrb42mh

[THRAWN]

If it's too much crap, DON'T DO IT! Nobody is putting the sword to anyone to force them to be on the NUC. Guess listening to the concerns of the membership is "too much crap"...

OTOH, if you knew what kind of outright disrespectful and hate-filled emails that Colonel Griffith. the previous NUC chair, got about the US Flag removal when the last 39-1 came out, it might actually shake your opinion about how well our membership base embrace our core values...

There is "listening to the membership," and then there is wading thru dozens upon dozens of "you must be one of those anti-Americans!" emails just because your committee elected to simplify the uniform and bring it back to a wear method close to that which the USAF (not the Army) uses.

I had lunch at Orlando one day with Colonel Griffith and let me tell you. You better have some thick skin to take that particular job.

OTOOH, how many of us are former squadron commanders? How many of us have had the helicopter parent conversation after their second coming of Patton wasn't selected as cadet commander when you just know he is the most qualified? How many of us have been activity directors and had to endure the endless barrage of calls, emails, and face to face conversations about who was selected for positions and why their candidate wasn't? My point being, if you're going to be a member of this organization in any leadership capacity, you have to learn some people skills. Part of that is dealing with people who have strong and differing opinions than those of the organization. I've dealt with some vile stuff myself. Deal with it. Or walk away...

[Garibaldi]

It's beginning to look like we are falling in 3 camps: Those who want ABUs (mostly cadets, but some seniors as well); those who don't, and want to keep BDUs; and those who don't, and want to move away from the AF style and stay with corporate BBDUs.

In an organization as large as ours, there are going to be plenty of divergent opinions as to how the organization is run, what we wear, what we do, who we get to do it, and how we do it.

There is no easy answer to any of this. No matter who thinks "it's a good idea" will meet with stiff resistance from one side, apathy from another, and support from a third. It's the "triangle thingy!" The new CPFT, for example, was the result of many man-hours of research, yet many of us feel that it's a dog's breakfast of contradictions, bad ideas, and bad change. Some think it's a good idea, and others are all "meh" about it.

ABUs have been a thorn in our collective sides since Ma Blue chose them to replace the woodland pattern BDU. There were some in the mid to late 80s who were adamant about us not changing from the pickle suits when BDUs were introduced, and some of those same people are also arguing against changing to the ABU for various reasons, most of which involve money, availability, or heritage.

I personally will be wearing whatever CAP tells me I can wear. I've recently caved in and purchased the gray tactical trousers for my polo shirt, since I'm now not able to see my toes over my belly, and I won't wear my BDUs until I lose the keg (don't even get me stared on the AF blue uniform). When the time comes, I will seek out my own set of ABUs, if that time ever arises.

And, as always, there would be no CAPTalk without diverging opinions, robust discussion, dog piling of cadets and seniors who refuse to RTFM, drive by trolls, and of course, uniform thread drift. So, keep that in mind as you grit your teeth, set your jaw, and plot your responses to those with differing opinions.

It's always going to be something. In 10 years, it'll be a different uniform. I'm starting a pool on how right I am about it. I'm giving 3 months on either side of 10 years from June 2016.

[Holding Pattern]

It's beginning to look like we are falling in 3 camps: Those who want ABUs (mostly cadets, but some seniors as well); those who don't, and want to keep BDUs; and those who don't, and want to move away from the AF style and stay with corporate BBDUs.

In an organization as large as ours, there are going to be plenty of divergent opinions as to how the organization is run, what we wear, what we do, who we get to do it, and how we do it.

There is no easy answer to any of this. No matter who thinks "it's a good idea" will meet with stiff resistance from one side, apathy from another, and support from a third. It's the "triangle thingy!" The new CPFT, for example, was the result of many man-hours of research, yet many of us feel that it's a dog's breakfast of contradictions, bad ideas, and bad change. Some think it's a good idea, and others are all "meh" about it.

ABUs have been a thorn in our collective sides since Ma Blue chose them to replace the woodland pattern BDU. There were some in the mid to late 80s who were adamant about us not changing from the pickle suits when BDUs were introduced, and some of those same people are also arguing against changing to the ABU for various reasons, most of which involve money, availability, or heritage.

I personally will be wearing whatever CAP tells me I can wear. I've recently caved in and purchased the gray tactical trousers for my polo shirt, since I'm now not able to see my toes over my belly, and I won't wear my BDUs until I lose the keg (don't even get me stared on the AF blue uniform). When the time comes, I will seek out my own set of ABUs, if that time ever arises.

And, as always, there would be no CAPTalk without diverging opinions, robust discussion, dog piling of cadets and seniors who refuse to RTFM, drive by trolls, and of course, uniform thread drift. So, keep that in mind as you grit your teeth, set your jaw, and plot your responses to those with differing opinions.

It's always going to be something. In 10 years, it'll be a different uniform. I'm starting a pool on how right I am about it. I'm giving 3 months on either side of 10 years from June 2016.

Put me down for 2027. It's a good year for bets and conspiracy theories.

[Spam]

I'm betting on the next CAP uniform triggering the Singularity, as the volume of member time wasted on line jaw jackin' about uniforms exponentially expands.

V/R
Spam

[rustyjeeper]

Texas Wing Civil Air Patrol
The following email is sent on behalf of Col Richard J. Greenwood, CAP, in his capacity as Chairman of the National Uniform Committee:

To All Members of the Command Council and the National Staff:
For some time now there has been a lot of discussion about Civil Air Patrol transitioning to a new utility uniform, due to several issues with the current BDU. One option was for us to seek approval to transition to the ABU. In the past, the decision was made to delay transitioning to the ABU for many reasons. Recent events have made it possible for us to reconsider that decision.

Currently, the National Uniform Committee has been examining the possibility of transitioning to the ABU uniform, and what a CAP specific ABU might look like. As part of that proposal, there will be wear tests conducted by some members. Many of you may have seen a photograph circling around the Internet that shows two CAP Officers wearing one prototype of the ABU uniform.

I would like to assure you all that these wear tests will be very limited in scope, and have been approved by CAP-USAF and the National Commander for the specific purpose of testing the viability of a CAP ABU.

We are in the very early stages of this proposal. There is absolutely no guarantee that CAP will pursue the option to transition to a version of the ABU. As such, I would caution you against purchasing any ABU items until such time as a final decision is made.
Please share this information with your subordinate commanders

Susan P. Parker
HQ CAP Chief, Personnel & Member Actions

U.S. Air Force Auxiliary
gocivilairpatrol.com

[Garibaldi]

Rusty, you're about a week late on this. 

[TheSkyHornet]

If it's too much crap, DON'T DO IT! Nobody is putting the sword to anyone to force them to be on the NUC. Guess listening to the concerns of the membership is "too much crap"...

OTOH, if you knew what kind of outright disrespectful and hate-filled emails that Colonel Griffith. the previous NUC chair, got about the US Flag removal when the last 39-1 came out, it might actually shake your opinion about how well our membership base embrace our core values...

There is "listening to the membership," and then there is wading thru dozens upon dozens of "you must be one of those anti-Americans!" emails just because your committee elected to simplify the uniform and bring it back to a wear method close to that which the USAF (not the Army) uses.

I had lunch at Orlando one day with Colonel Griffith and let me tell you. You better have some thick skin to take that particular job.

OTOOH, how many of us are former squadron commanders? How many of us have had the helicopter parent conversation after their second coming of Patton wasn't selected as cadet commander when you just know he is the most qualified? How many of us have been activity directors and had to endure the endless barrage of calls, emails, and face to face conversations about who was selected for positions and why their candidate wasn't? My point being, if you're going to be a member of this organization in any leadership capacity, you have to learn some people skills. Part of that is dealing with people who have strong and differing opinions than those of the organization. I've dealt with some vile stuff myself. Deal with it. Or walk away...

Laughed my butt off.

But really loved this post. How many times have you made a recommendation to a superior and they came back with "We're going to do it this way?" And do you know what you should do? "Yes, Sir/Ma'am." It's done. That's it. That's your order. Get to it.

[NIN]

OTOOH, how many of us are former squadron commanders? How many of us have had the helicopter parent conversation after their second coming of Patton wasn't selected as cadet commander when you just know he is the most qualified? How many of us have been activity directors and had to endure the endless barrage of calls, emails, and face to face conversations about who was selected for positions and why their candidate wasn't? My point being, if you're going to be a member of this organization in any leadership capacity, you have to learn some people skills. Part of that is dealing with people who have strong and differing opinions than those of the organization. I've dealt with some vile stuff myself. Deal with it. Or walk away...

Many times. I've been a squadron commander 5 times.   Heck, lets not talk about Patton, Reincarnated, lets just talk about not promoting a guy to C/TSgt on day 59 cuz he needed to "season" a bit.  The rotor wash was extensive.

There is a difference between "having people skills in a leadership position" (Colonel Griffith was a successful Wing Commander) and people who outright "don't get it."

I'm not talking "Helicopter Mom" here  (LOLz: http://auxnewsnow.com/2015/12/quadcopter-mom-a-first-for-local-squadron/) (EDIT: forgot the daggone link the first time)

No, I'm talking "Captain Bagodonuts from Pocatello" ("example SM, one ea.") sending an email VFR direct to a colonel with an absolute tirade that went way, way, way beyond the pale of what a member should be doing.  Seriously.  Like "You must be some kind of commie" tirades.  Words like "Un-American" "how dare you??" and "Man up!" (huh?)

hello?  The guy was the chair of committee that made a decision. He was even done being a wing commander.  Nobody, leadership position or not, should have to put up with level of abject disrespect.  Seriously.

(Most of the folks who'd emailed him hadn't been in CAP but maybe 2 years, so its not like any of them even remember when the flag got authorized)

[A.Member]

No, I'm talking "Captain Bagodonuts from Pocatello" ("example SM, one ea.") sending an email VFR direct to a colonel with an absolute tirade that went way, way, way beyond the pale of what a member should be doing.  Seriously.  Like "You must be some kind of commie" tirades.  Words like "Un-American" "how dare you??" and "Man up!" (huh?)

If as serious and flagrant as you indicate, at the very least, I'd expect "Captain Bagodonuts" received a letter of reprimand and demotion as a result.  Too much of that B.S. goes unchecked and that is unsat!

[NIN]

No, I'm talking "Captain Bagodonuts from Pocatello" ("example SM, one ea.") sending an email VFR direct to a colonel with an absolute tirade that went way, way, way beyond the pale of what a member should be doing.  Seriously.  Like "You must be some kind of commie" tirades.  Words like "Un-American" "how dare you??" and "Man up!" (huh?)

If as serious and flagrant as you indicate, at the very least, I'd expect "Captain Bagodonuts" received a letter of reprimand and demotion as a result.  Too much of that B.S. goes unchecked and that is unsat!

No disagreement here.

[RiverAux]

Okay, speaking as someone who is personally very familiar with the line between can and can't wear AF-style uniforms, I do have to wonder about whether that line has been crossed by those pictured in the wear test.  But, yep, I'm going to be "that guy" and go there...

[rustyjeeper]

Okay, speaking as someone who is personally very familiar with the line between can and can't wear AF-style uniforms, I do have to wonder about whether that line has been crossed by those pictured in the wear test.  But, yep, I'm going to be "that guy" and go there...

I too was thinking that. But with my penchant for endearing myself to those higher in the chain I for once, decided to keep my mouth shut. Thanks for saying what I was thinking!