CAP Talk

General Discussion => Uniforms & Awards => Topic started by: winterg on December 11, 2015, 05:44:27 PM

Title: ABU Wear Test
Post by: winterg on December 11, 2015, 05:44:27 PM
I almost hate to bring this up, but...

Chaplain Miner posted this pic on Facebook that porports to show the MER and NER region commanders wear testing ABUs today in Washington for Wreaths Across America.

Anyone else have information on this? I'm sure there are plenty of comments!

Edited for location.

(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12/11/3d80bd84512e15e187facf2fda63db9f.jpg)
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Storm Chaser on December 11, 2015, 06:09:03 PM
Wouldn't any official test wear be announced by NHQ in the CAP website or eServices?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: winterg on December 11, 2015, 06:09:53 PM
I would think there would be SOME type of notice somewhere.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: goblin on December 11, 2015, 06:14:30 PM
#notoffical
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: kwe1009 on December 11, 2015, 06:16:42 PM
What is the point of wear testing a uniform that has been in use for almost 10 years?  Are cadets going to be harder on this uniform than flight line mechanics?

I really hope we don't go to ABU's.  They are expensive and uncomfortable.  For the people complaining today about how hard it is to find BDUs (a uniform worn by all services for over 20 years), how easy do you think it will be to find ABUs and at a decent cost?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: A.Member on December 11, 2015, 06:16:56 PM
"Wear testing" but they can't even get matching color boots?  Hmmm...
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: winterg on December 11, 2015, 06:16:58 PM
We might as well commence the ABU rodeo. We haven't had one here in a while. Lol

I would even happily give up my beret if it meant CAP dropped all patches when switching to ABU. Rank, tapes, & badges only. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Toad1168 on December 11, 2015, 06:18:40 PM
I do like the look.  Especially the navy on the insignia.  I would like to see that adopted over the ultramarine.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: goblin on December 11, 2015, 06:21:48 PM

Quote from: winterg on December 11, 2015, 06:16:58 PM
We might as well commence the ABU rodeo. We haven't had one here in a while. Lol

I would even happily give up my beret if it meant CAP dropped all patches when switching to ABU. Rank, tapes, & badges only.

Or you could just give it up regardless.

Nobody is happy with the lack of patches. It's on the the ABUs biggest complaints.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: winterg on December 11, 2015, 06:22:52 PM
Why shouldn't I get something I want to give it up? :)
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NCRblues on December 11, 2015, 06:24:41 PM
Odd, something seems off with this.

If it is official, why in DC? Are we not required by regulation to have on dress blues in the DC area for official function?

If it's not official, what is CAP going to do about 2 region CC's going rouge?

(I also enjoy the double standards of captalk though. If those people had anything less than full birds on the collars this place would be going nuts destroying the people)
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: MisterCD on December 11, 2015, 06:25:15 PM
There is no current wear testing, and this is apparently something unique, although why I know not. As someone currently on the NUC, this post has me a bit blindsided. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: goblin on December 11, 2015, 06:25:27 PM
"Full birds"
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: winterg on December 11, 2015, 06:26:00 PM
Well, this just got interesting. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Toad1168 on December 11, 2015, 06:26:52 PM
Quote from: NCRblues on December 11, 2015, 06:24:41 PM
Odd, something seems off with this.

If it is official, why in DC? Are we not required by regulation to have on dress blues in the DC area for official function?

If it's not official, what is CAP going to do about 2 region CC's going rouge?

(I also enjoy the double standards of captalk though. If those people had anything less than full birds on the collars this place would be going nuts destroying the people)

I have seen the placement of the wreaths in Arlington done in BDUs.  Special circumstance maybe?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on December 11, 2015, 06:44:13 PM
This is an old picture. One had been floating around with the national chaplain or something wearing ABUs with CAP insignia. I think it was like 4 or 5 years ago.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: SMWOG on December 11, 2015, 06:47:01 PM
Propper makes ABUs so Vanguard could supply them. ABU boots are expensive,maybe VG could come up with a low cost boot.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: winterg on December 11, 2015, 06:47:39 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on December 11, 2015, 06:44:13 PM
This is an old picture. One had been floating around with the national chaplain or something wearing ABUs with CAP insignia. I think it was like 4 or 5 years ago.
The metadata on the photo suggests it was taken today.

Not saying it was, just that is what it says. 
Title: ABU Wear Test
Post by: lordmonar on December 11, 2015, 06:48:06 PM
Quote from: kwe1009 on December 11, 2015, 06:16:42 PM
What is the point of wear testing a uniform that has been in use for almost 10 years?  Are cadets going to be harder on this uniform than flight line mechanics?

I really hope we don't go to ABU's.  They are expensive and uncomfortable.  For the people complaining today about how hard it is to find BDUs (a uniform worn by all services for over 20 years), how easy do you think it will be to find ABUs and at a decent cost?
i got access to hundreds of them right now out of the Airman's attic at Nellis. So good shape and free is a decent price.

And the point of wear testing may be to show out USAF brethren that they won't took like ass.   

As for announcement.    Whey tell the world?   It will just mean some cadet will think it means him and he will show up at the next meeting in ABUs. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: SMWOG on December 11, 2015, 06:51:48 PM
ROTC detachments have already attempted to donate used ABUs to local CAP units. I have been told that ABUs hold up better in regards to washing  and fading compared to BDUs.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on December 11, 2015, 07:01:49 PM
And why are we even talking about it again? The decision was made several years ago BY CAP to take ABUs off the table. It is a non-issue. It is a dead horse. It has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS A DEAD HORSE!!!
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: winterg on December 11, 2015, 07:04:45 PM
There are no dead horses in CAPTalk. Only batting practice.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Al Sayre on December 11, 2015, 09:41:30 PM
The Zombie Apocalypse is upon us! >:D
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: arajca on December 11, 2015, 09:57:19 PM
Disregarding the whole ABU issue, there is no reason why these particular officers should be wearing a working uniform to a ceremonial activity at Arlington. PERIOD. They are not cadets who have not received their blues yet. >:(
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: lordmonar on December 11, 2015, 10:01:23 PM
Placing the wreaths is a working event. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on December 11, 2015, 10:12:04 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 11, 2015, 10:01:23 PM
Placing the wreaths is a working event.

Come on, Pat.  You're thousands of miles away. In VEGAS. Can't you assume you can discern EXACTLY whats going on from ONE photo and make some ASSUMPTIONS that the officers depicted are doing something WRONG?

Cuz everybody else is.

BTW, you'll all see this thru your respective chains of command pretty soon

QuoteThe following email is sent on behalf of Col Richard J. Greenwood, CAP, in his capacity as Chairman of the National Uniform Committee:

To All Members of the Command Council and the National Staff:

For some time now there has been a lot of discussion about Civil Air Patrol transitioning to a new utility uniform, due to several issues with the current BDU. One option was for us to seek approval to transition to the ABU. In the past, the decision was made to delay transitioning to the ABU for many reasons. Recent events have made it possible for us to reconsider that decision.

Currently, the National Uniform Committee has been examining the possibility of transitioning to the ABU uniform, and what a CAP specific ABU might look like. As part of that proposal, there will be wear tests conducted by some members. Many of you may have seen a photograph circling around the Internet that shows two CAP Officers wearing one prototype of the ABU uniform.

I would like to  assure you all that these wear tests will be very limited in scope, and have been approved by CAP-USAF and the National Commander for the specific purpose of testing the viability of a CAP ABU.

We are in the very early stages of this proposal. There is absolutely no guarantee that CAP will pursue the option to transition to a version of the ABU. As such, I would caution you against purchasing any ABU items until such time as a final decision is made.

Please share this information with your subordinate commanders

In the meantime, keep accusing people of doing the wrong thing.

Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: lordmonar on December 11, 2015, 10:19:19 PM
Oh I'm sorry.   I forgot this was CAPTALK! :)
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: celluloidsamurai on December 11, 2015, 10:19:54 PM


Please read the message below. Maybe change is coming after all.





The following email is sent on behalf of Col Richard J. Greenwood, CAP, in his capacity as Chairman of the National Uniform Committee:



To All Members of the Command Council and the National Staff:



For some time now there has been a lot of discussion about Civil Air Patrol transitioning to a new utility uniform, due to several issues with the current BDU. One option was for us to seek approval to transition to the ABU. In the past, the decision was made to delay transitioning to the ABU for many reasons. Recent events have made it possible for us to reconsider that decision.

Currently, the National Uniform Committee has been examining the possibility of transitioning to the ABU uniform, and what a CAP specific ABU might look like. As part of that proposal, there will be wear tests conducted by some members. Many of you may have seen a photograph circling around the Internet that shows two CAP Officers wearing one prototype of the ABU uniform.

I would like to  assure you all that these wear tests will be very limited in scope, and have been approved by CAP-USAF and the National Commander for the specific purpose of testing the viability of a CAP ABU.

We are in the very early stages of this proposal. There is absolutely no guarantee that CAP will pursue the option to transition to a version of the ABU. As such, I would caution you against purchasing any ABU items until such time as a final decision is made.








Lt Col David Stoner, CAP

Squadron Commander

SER-TN-005  Smyrna Composite Squadron

(C) 901.230.9255

U.S. Air Force Auxiliary

sertn005.shutterfly.com
gocivilairpatrol.com



Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on December 11, 2015, 10:21:21 PM
Quote from: arajca on December 11, 2015, 09:57:19 PM
Disregarding the whole ABU issue, there is no reason why these particular officers should be wearing a working uniform to a ceremonial activity at Arlington. PERIOD. They are not cadets who have not received their blues yet. >:(

Yeah, you're right. 

Of course you are. Based on one photo.

See, cuz when you're presented with an image lacking context, its always the most appropriate thing to do to assume that the people in the photos are doing the wrong thing.

Even if they're senior officers.

Yep.

Do you happen to have the letter of instruction for today's event that specifies what the Uniform of the Day is?

No?

Then how can you state with *absolute* certainty that the officers in question should not be wearing a "working uniform?"

You can't.

(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/12346314_10206811093349094_8734520411292975538_n.jpg?oh=dcf0a624709de86d7ca6f32ea7a6187f&oe=56E7077F)

Especially when other photos show others at the event in similar uniforms.

I'm sure they're not all just some rogue CAP colonels, are they?

Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Ned on December 11, 2015, 10:41:25 PM
Quote from: NIN on December 11, 2015, 10:21:21 PM

I'm sure they're not all just some rogue CAP colonels, are they?

To be fair, some of us are.   8)
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: FW on December 11, 2015, 10:45:14 PM
Well, I guess all the "millions" of posts here on CT have been productive...  Of course there is still the distinct possibility this "wear test" will fade away in the wash in favor of a CAP distinctive utility uniform... :angel:
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: LSThiker on December 11, 2015, 10:50:18 PM
Quote from: NIN on December 11, 2015, 10:21:21 PM

See, cuz when you're presented with an image lacking context, its always the most appropriate thing to do to assume that the people in the photos are doing the wrong thing.

Even if they're senior officers.

Yep.

Do you happen to have the letter of instruction for today's event that specifies what the Uniform of the Day is?

No?

Then how can you state with *absolute* certainty that the officers in question should not be wearing a "working uniform?"

You can't.

To be fair, Nin, the regs do state that in no case will BDUs or other working uniforms be worn in the National Capitol area:

Quote1.2.4.4. All CAP personnel touring Washington DC, as part of a CAP activity or conducting CAP business in the National Capital Area, will wear the service uniform (Class B), Aviator Shirt Uniform or civilian attire, and will be properly groomed. Officers and NCO visiting the White House, Capitol Building, State Department, or comparable buildings in uniform will wear the Service Dress Uniform (Class A) or Corporate Service Uniform. Cadets may wear Class A or Class B with tie. In no case will BDUs, flight suits, or utility uniforms be worn

But yes, I agree that assumptions do fly wild on CAPTalk. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: rmutchler on December 11, 2015, 10:54:04 PM
I smell #TotalFoce   :o
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: JeffDG on December 11, 2015, 11:06:41 PM
Quote from: winterg on December 11, 2015, 06:09:53 PM
I would think there would be SOME type of notice somewhere.
It was announced in an e-mail from S. Parker at NHQ to all members of the CAP Command Council this afternoon.  Wing Commanders were encouraged to share the announcement with their subordinate commanders.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: HGjunkie on December 11, 2015, 11:26:43 PM
ABU's wear the same as BDU's - the new RABU variants are basically BDUs with the new pattern and some extra pockets. They do have coloration issues however, depending on what environment you're in and if you use them for anything outside of office-type work. Although they don't fade horribly.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: SarDragon on December 12, 2015, 12:03:43 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on December 11, 2015, 06:24:41 PM
Odd, something seems off with this.

If it is official, why in DC? Are we not required by regulation to have on dress blues in the DC area for official function?

If it's not official, what is CAP going to do about 2 region CC's going rouge?

(I also enjoy the double standards of captalk though. If those people had anything less than full birds on the collars this place would be going nuts destroying the people)

Funny, I don't see a hint of red anywhere.  >:D
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: SarDragon on December 12, 2015, 12:18:18 AM
Quote from: LSThiker on December 11, 2015, 10:50:18 PM


To be fair, Nin, the regs do state that in no case will BDUs or other working uniforms be worn in the National Capitol area:

Quote1.2.4.4. All CAP personnel touring Washington DC, as part of a CAP activity or conducting CAP business in the National Capital Area, will wear the service uniform (Class B), Aviator Shirt Uniform or civilian attire, and will be properly groomed. Officers and NCO visiting the White House, Capitol Building, State Department, or comparable buildings in uniform will wear the Service Dress Uniform (Class A) or Corporate Service Uniform. Cadets may wear Class A or Class B with tie. In no case will BDUs, flight suits, or utility uniforms be worn

But yes, I agree that assumptions do fly wild on CAPTalk.

That's subject to interpretation, in that our national cemetery and the five-sided wind tunnel are both in Arlington, and not DC proper, and some two and a half miles from the Capitol Building.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on December 12, 2015, 01:28:18 AM
Quote from: celluloidsamurai on December 11, 2015, 10:19:54 PM


Please read the message below. Maybe change is coming after all.





The following email is sent on behalf of Col Richard J. Greenwood, CAP, in his capacity as Chairman of the National Uniform Committee:



To All Members of the Command Council and the National Staff:



For some time now there has been a lot of discussion about Civil Air Patrol transitioning to a new utility uniform, due to several issues with the current BDU. One option was for us to seek approval to transition to the ABU. In the past, the decision was made to delay transitioning to the ABU for many reasons. Recent events have made it possible for us to reconsider that decision.

Currently, the National Uniform Committee has been examining the possibility of transitioning to the ABU uniform, and what a CAP specific ABU might look like. As part of that proposal, there will be wear tests conducted by some members. Many of you may have seen a photograph circling around the Internet that shows two CAP Officers wearing one prototype of the ABU uniform.

I would like to  assure you all that these wear tests will be very limited in scope, and have been approved by CAP-USAF and the National Commander for the specific purpose of testing the viability of a CAP ABU.

We are in the very early stages of this proposal. There is absolutely no guarantee that CAP will pursue the option to transition to a version of the ABU. As such, I would caution you against purchasing any ABU items until such time as a final decision is made.








Lt Col David Stoner, CAP

Squadron Commander

SER-TN-005  Smyrna Composite Squadron

(C) 901.230.9255

U.S. Air Force Auxiliary

sertn005.shutterfly.com
gocivilairpatrol.com

He's my wing CC and sent the same message as I'm seeing elsewhere. Looks like a boilerplate memo.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on December 12, 2015, 02:13:30 AM
Quote from: LSThiker on December 11, 2015, 10:50:18 PM
To be fair, Nin, the regs do state that in no case will BDUs or other working uniforms be worn in the National Capitol area:

Quote1.2.4.4. All CAP personnel touring Washington DC, as part of a CAP activity or conducting CAP business in the National Capital Area, will wear the service uniform (Class B), Aviator Shirt Uniform or civilian attire, and will be properly groomed. Officers and NCO visiting the White House, Capitol Building, State Department, or comparable buildings in uniform will wear the Service Dress Uniform (Class A) or Corporate Service Uniform. Cadets may wear Class A or Class B with tie. In no case will BDUs, flight suits, or utility uniforms be worn

But yes, I agree that assumptions do fly wild on CAPTalk.

Yep, you're definitely correct about that in the 39-1.

I suspect that when the first WAA came around and it was time to do the "working party" things in the garden, they followed the Old Guard's lead for working uniforms instead of having people trying to do "fatigue" work in a "dress" uniform in December. And likely not even with things like overcoats and such, even if it was appropriate.

And then someone said "Hey, we're not technically in DC for this, right?" 

Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: MSG Mac on December 12, 2015, 02:53:36 AM
Quote from: NIN on December 12, 2015, 02:13:30 AM
Quote from: LSThiker on December 11, 2015, 10:50:18 PM
To be fair, Nin, the regs do state that in no case will BDUs or other working uniforms be worn in the National Capitol area:

Quote1.2.4.4. All CAP personnel touring Washington DC, as part of a CAP activity or conducting CAP business in the National Capital Area, will wear the service uniform (Class B), Aviator Shirt Uniform or civilian attire, and will be properly groomed. Officers and NCO visiting the White House, Capitol Building, State Department, or comparable buildings in uniform will wear the Service Dress Uniform (Class A) or Corporate Service Uniform. Cadets may wear Class A or Class B with tie. In no case will BDUs, flight suits, or utility uniforms be worn

But yes, I agree that assumptions do fly wild on CAPTalk.

Yep, you're definitely correct about that in the 39-1.

I suspect that when the first WAA came around and it was time to do the "working party" things in the garden, they followed the Old Guard's lead for working uniforms instead of having people trying to do "fatigue" work in a "dress" uniform in December. And likely not even with things like overcoats and such, even if it was appropriate.

And then someone said "Hey, we're not technically in DC for this, right?" 



But you are within the MDW/AFDW
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: coudano on December 12, 2015, 03:01:29 AM
Quote from: NIN on December 11, 2015, 10:21:21 PM

(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/12346314_10206811093349094_8734520411292975538_n.jpg?oh=dcf0a624709de86d7ca6f32ea7a6187f&oe=56E7077F)


That cadet's eyes...

*I* would like the digitals!!!
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: grindstaff2000 on December 12, 2015, 03:43:34 AM
This is an official test. All wing commanders received this email today. (Different boots are intentionally )
To All Members of the Command Council and the National Staff:

For some time now there has been a lot of discussion about Civil Air Patrol transitioning to a new utility uniform, due to several issues with the current BDU. One option was for us to seek approval to transition to the ABU. In the past, the decision was made to delay transitioning to the ABU for many reasons. Recent events have made it possible for us to reconsider that decision.

Currently, the National Uniform Committee has been examining the possibility of transitioning to the ABU uniform, and what a CAP specific ABU might look like. As part of that proposal, there will be wear tests conducted by some members. Many of you may have seen a photograph circling around the Internet that shows two CAP Officers wearing one prototype of the ABU uniform.

I would like to  assure you all that these wear tests will be very limited in scope, and have been approved by CAP-USAF and the National Commander for the specific purpose of testing the viability of a CAP ABU.

We are in the very early stages of this proposal. There is absolutely no guarantee that CAP will pursue the option to transition to a version of the ABU. As such, I would caution you against purchasing any ABU items until such time as a final decision is made.

Please share this information with your subordinate commanders
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: PHall on December 12, 2015, 04:22:06 AM
Quote from: grindstaff2000 on December 12, 2015, 03:43:34 AM
This is an official test. All wing commanders received this email today. (Different boots are intentionally )
To All Members of the Command Council and the National Staff:

For some time now there has been a lot of discussion about Civil Air Patrol transitioning to a new utility uniform, due to several issues with the current BDU. One option was for us to seek approval to transition to the ABU. In the past, the decision was made to delay transitioning to the ABU for many reasons. Recent events have made it possible for us to reconsider that decision.

Currently, the National Uniform Committee has been examining the possibility of transitioning to the ABU uniform, and what a CAP specific ABU might look like. As part of that proposal, there will be wear tests conducted by some members. Many of you may have seen a photograph circling around the Internet that shows two CAP Officers wearing one prototype of the ABU uniform.

I would like to  assure you all that these wear tests will be very limited in scope, and have been approved by CAP-USAF and the National Commander for the specific purpose of testing the viability of a CAP ABU.

We are in the very early stages of this proposal. There is absolutely no guarantee that CAP will pursue the option to transition to a version of the ABU. As such, I would caution you against purchasing any ABU items until such time as a final decision is made.

Please share this information with your subordinate commanders

Yeah, you're the third person to post this in this thread.  Maybe read the whole thread before you hit the post button?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: RiverAux on December 12, 2015, 01:50:42 PM
I agree that "wear testing" a proven uniform is a bit silly especially when some of your testers are CAP Colonels, a grade that isn't known for doing a lot of hard time in the field. 

It is certainly appropriate to order up some different variations of insignia, etc. and actually put them on some ABUs to see how they look in person, but wearing them at a public event where all the other CAP people will be wearing different uniforms seems like a bad idea from a public affairs point of view. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on December 12, 2015, 01:54:17 PM
So I'm seeing that wing patches wouldn't be worn. Is this correct, or just part of the many types of tests they're running with regards to color of insignia, boots, and such?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: RiverAux on December 12, 2015, 01:59:06 PM
Could be from a wing that doesn't require it now anyway...
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NC Hokie on December 12, 2015, 02:13:10 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on December 12, 2015, 01:54:17 PM
So I'm seeing that wing patches wouldn't be worn. Is this correct, or just part of the many types of tests they're running with regards to color of insignia, boots, and such?

I believe that the gentlemen in question are region commanders, so they probably wouldn't wear a wing patch in any uniform.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on December 12, 2015, 02:16:34 PM
Quote from: NC Hokie on December 12, 2015, 02:13:10 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on December 12, 2015, 01:54:17 PM
So I'm seeing that wing patches wouldn't be worn. Is this correct, or just part of the many types of tests they're running with regards to color of insignia, boots, and such?

I believe that the gentlemen in question are region commanders, so they probably wouldn't wear a wing patch in any uniform.

Oh, da-doy...
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: PHall on December 12, 2015, 04:42:30 PM
Well, if they follow the Air Force's lead, there won't be any patches. And I for one won't miss them either.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: goblin on December 12, 2015, 05:19:24 PM
Explain the point of a wear test
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on December 12, 2015, 05:27:44 PM
Quote from: Goblin on December 12, 2015, 05:19:24 PM
Explain the point of a wear test

To evaluate the feasibility, utility, and visual representation of the uniform among our peers fellows in the ABU.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: goblin on December 12, 2015, 05:46:02 PM
That's a stretch.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: lordmonar on December 12, 2015, 06:18:10 PM

Quote from: Goblin on December 12, 2015, 05:46:02 PM
That's a stretch.
Why do YOU think they did the wear test?  Because his answer sounded spot on to me.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: SARDOC on December 12, 2015, 06:34:22 PM
Quote from: arajca on December 11, 2015, 09:57:19 PM
Disregarding the whole ABU issue, there is no reason why these particular officers should be wearing a working uniform to a ceremonial activity at Arlington. PERIOD. They are not cadets who have not received their blues yet. >:(

This was from the Project Manager for today's event.

Quote from:  WAA Project Manager AnnouncementYou are cordially invited to observe our Nation Commander, Major General Joseph R. Vazquez, lay a wreath at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier at Arlington National Cemetery.

Maj Gen Vazquez will lay the wreath beginning at 3:15 pm on Saturday, December 12, 2015. Please arrive at the Tomb by 2:55 pm so you can be in place and guarantee yourself a good spot to watch the world-renowned "Changing of the Guard" by the Tomb Sentinels!

An appropriate uniform for this event at our nation's "Most Sacred Shrine" is the USAF-style service dress uniform, or the CAP Corporate equivalent.

If you volunteered to work at the Wreaths Across America mission earlier in the day, you may choose to wear your USAF-style BDUs or CAP Working Uniform if you are unable to bring your dress uniform. If you wish to attend in civilian clothing, you are welcome to do so as long as it is good taste.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on December 12, 2015, 06:47:39 PM
Quote from: coudano on December 12, 2015, 03:01:29 AM
*I* would like the digitals!!!

You know, if anybody saved that video, NOW would be the time to bring it out.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: abdsp51 on December 12, 2015, 11:40:47 PM
Should and it's a big stretch should go to ABU's please do not change the t-shirt or boot colors.  Plus this wear test should have encompassed a mix of membership and not just Colonels (this may have happened but no documentation to back it up). 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: THRAWN on December 12, 2015, 11:48:15 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on December 12, 2015, 11:40:47 PM
Should and it's a big stretch should go to ABU's please do not change the t-shirt or boot colors.  Plus this wear test should have encompassed a mix of membership and not just Colonels (this may have happened but no documentation to back it up).

Agree it should have been a wider mix of membership. Are you saying that we should stick with black boots? I second...
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: abdsp51 on December 13, 2015, 12:30:16 AM
Quote from: THRAWN on December 12, 2015, 11:48:15 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on December 12, 2015, 11:40:47 PM
Should and it's a big stretch should go to ABU's please do not change the t-shirt or boot colors.  Plus this wear test should have encompassed a mix of membership and not just Colonels (this may have happened but no documentation to back it up).

Agree it should have been a wider mix of membership. Are you saying that we should stick with black boots? I second...

Sir,

That is exactly what I am saying.  The sage boots do not hold up as well and good quality boots are expensive.  I have gone through 3 pairs of sage boots since I started wearing them regularly since Oct 11.  Black boots and t-shirts should stay,  looks 10x better IMO and provides enough distinctness and contrast with it to set us apart.  Plus our costs outside the uniform in and of itself are kept to a min. 

If it was up to me I'd have the following with ABU

Unit Caps
Black Belt
Black Boots
Black T-Shirt

This provides enough distinctiveness to set us apart from the AF while still wearing the current AF working uniform.  I have said numerous times in my career going away from black boots and t-shirts was a horrible idea and at the very minimum the AF should have stuck with the sand/coyote colored boots. 

Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: THRAWN on December 13, 2015, 12:38:16 AM
You had me until the sand colored boots. I wear them and there is not a second thay I dont miss my blacks. I think you may be on to something with the colors though. Who ever decided on this generations boots needs to be sent to the Russian Front...
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: abdsp51 on December 13, 2015, 02:46:36 AM
Quote from: THRAWN on December 13, 2015, 12:38:16 AM
You had me until the sand colored boots. I wear them and there is not a second thay I dont miss my blacks. I think you may be on to something with the colors though. Who ever decided on this generations boots needs to be sent to the Russian Front...

I prefer the black over the sand however since the powers to be for Ma Blue changed things.  Sticking with sand for the ABU would have been a better choice all across the board. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: thebeggerpie on December 13, 2015, 04:38:22 AM
 Man, I just don't want shell out cash for more uniform items again! Looks neat, looks cool, hope they keep the wing patches(I love my wing patch), but the cost that it might have on me scares me.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on December 13, 2015, 01:10:56 PM
I don't understand what the huge deal is with boots. I prefer mine used for some reason, as I have shelled out many dollars for new in the past, and the used hold up just great. I can pick up a pair of desert boots, Bellevilles, at a local surplus shop for about $30 or so. They have a footlocker full. Used black boots in serviceable condition can run about the same, maybe up to $50 depending on brand. Sage...not so much. I was able to obtain a brand new pair a while back on uspatriottactical.com for $49.99 on sale, Magnums, which were pretty nice. I've not seen any lately for that cheap.

ABUs are coming into the market as people ETS and sell or donate them to Goodwill. I occasionally find ACUs at Goodwill, as well as parts to the new ADU, but rarely any hats.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Capt Thompson on December 13, 2015, 02:33:30 PM
Quote from: thebeggerpie on December 13, 2015, 04:38:22 AM
Man, I just don't want shell out cash for more uniform items again! Looks neat, looks cool, hope they keep the wing patches(I love my wing patch), but the cost that it might have on me scares me.

Like any uniform change, if this does go through, they will have a lengthy phase in date. You'll have a few years to pick up what you need, they aren't going to change to a new uniform and make you switch in a month.

I've often wondered why they don't drop camo all together and go with the corporate blue bdu's. Everyone would look uniform, and we have no need to be covert when we're in the field searching for a downed plane or missing person. It would end all uniform discussions regarding fatigue uniforms, no need to worry about what Ma Blue is currently wearing if we have a standard uniform that's all our own.

Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: winterg on December 13, 2015, 02:57:04 PM
Quote from: 1st Lt Thompson on December 13, 2015, 02:33:30 PM
I've often wondered why they don't drop camo all together and go with the corporate blue bdu's. Everyone would look uniform, and we have no need to be covert when we're in the field searching for a downed plane or missing person. It would end all uniform discussions regarding fatigue uniforms, no need to worry about what Ma Blue is currently wearing if we have a standard uniform that's all our own.

This argument has been discussed, debated, argued many times over several years here and on other forums.  "Why not just swith to BBDUs and be done.  And while we have no need to be covert, the strongest argument, I believe, to wear the same field uniform as the USAF is simply because we are a part of the USAF family.  Also, ES is only 1 of our 3 missions, and in many areas is not even present in any great capacity with CP and AE being the predominant activities.  A standard uniform "all our own" would be great if we were a stand alone organization with no ties to a larger family with a long history of uniform traditions that we are inextricably intertwined with.  Any uniform decisions have to take that into consideration.

And there is no decision that could ever be made that would end uniform discussions.  I am pretty sure that if aliens showed up tomorrow on planet Earth that there would be a thread created within 12 hours to discuss what  they are wearing and how it would be cool if we did that.  :D
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Capt Thompson on December 13, 2015, 03:05:36 PM
So if Aliens came to earth, do you think they would prefer ABU's, or the BBDU's? Just kidding.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: winterg on December 13, 2015, 03:22:40 PM
Quote from: 1st Lt Thompson on December 13, 2015, 03:05:36 PM
So if Aliens came to earth, do you think they would prefer ABU's, or the BBDU's? Just kidding.

Hopefully a nice onesie in a formfitting stretchy material!
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on December 13, 2015, 03:40:39 PM
Switch to BBDUs?   Bwahahaha, Bwa  bwa bwa!

CAP MEMBERS are NOT SMURFS!


>:D

Just kidding!

See how "switching to BBDUs" will easily create arguments against them?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Capt Thompson on December 13, 2015, 03:42:26 PM
Quote from: winterg on December 13, 2015, 03:22:40 PM
Quote from: 1st Lt Thompson on December 13, 2015, 03:05:36 PM
So if Aliens came to earth, do you think they would prefer ABU's, or the BBDU's? Just kidding.

Hopefully a nice onesie in a formfitting stretchy material!

So a stretchy flight suit
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: winterg on December 13, 2015, 03:52:39 PM
Flight suit? No.....  >:D

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5622/23697496936_e75a5e9831_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/C74Seo)
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: arajca on December 13, 2015, 05:07:10 PM
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on December 13, 2015, 03:40:39 PM
Switch to BBDUs?   Bwahahaha, Bwa  bwa bwa!

CAP MEMBERS are NOT SMURFS!


>:D

Just kidding!

See how "switching to BBDUs" will easily create arguments against them?
BBDUs are NOT Smurf suits. Those were discontinued several years ago.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: PHall on December 13, 2015, 05:07:51 PM
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on December 13, 2015, 03:40:39 PM
Switch to BBDUs?   Bwahahaha, Bwa  bwa bwa!

CAP MEMBERS are NOT SMURFS!


>:D

Just kidding!

See how "switching to BBDUs" will easily create arguments against them?


I know I'm not a smurf, you sir on the otherhand..... >:D
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on December 13, 2015, 06:37:05 PM
I know the BBDUs are not jumpsuits.

Still they are blue. The smurfsuits were a lighter blue shade. Still people will make the connection... With a darker, burnt Smurf. But why am I posting this? I really don't care one way or another. I started this reply as a joke!

I prefer the BDU but if it is decided to replace the BDU with the BBDU I will wear so...
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: SarDragon on December 13, 2015, 07:28:39 PM
Quote from: arajca on December 13, 2015, 05:07:10 PMBBDUs are NOT Smurf suits. Those were discontinued several many years ago.

FTFY!
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: THRAWN on December 14, 2015, 02:53:44 PM
The question that I have always had is: why not BBDUs? They're distinctive, not cammies and would be something that the organization could make its "very own". I know one of the objections is price...however, get a bunch of people, order them together, and get bulk discounts. At this point, people are shelling out beaucoup bucks for BDUs anyway...
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: THRAWN on December 14, 2015, 02:55:23 PM
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on December 13, 2015, 03:40:39 PM
Switch to BBDUs?   Bwahahaha, Bwa  bwa bwa!

CAP MEMBERS are NOT SMURFS!


>:D

Just kidding!

See how "switching to BBDUs" will easily create arguments against them?

Smurfs, with the exception of Papa, wore white clothing. CAP members, with the exception of me, are not Chiss...
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: winterg on December 14, 2015, 02:57:01 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on December 14, 2015, 02:55:23 PM
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on December 13, 2015, 03:40:39 PM
Switch to BBDUs?   Bwahahaha, Bwa  bwa bwa!

CAP MEMBERS are NOT SMURFS!


>:D

Just kidding!

See how "switching to BBDUs" will easily create arguments against them?

Smurfs, with the exception of Papa, wore white clothing. CAP members, with the exception of me, are not Chiss...
Exactly. Look how many members would be on board if we called them Thrawn suits!
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on December 14, 2015, 02:57:41 PM
Quote from: winterg on December 14, 2015, 02:57:01 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on December 14, 2015, 02:55:23 PM
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on December 13, 2015, 03:40:39 PM
Switch to BBDUs?   Bwahahaha, Bwa  bwa bwa!

CAP MEMBERS are NOT SMURFS!


>:D

Just kidding!

See how "switching to BBDUs" will easily create arguments against them?

Smurfs, with the exception of Papa, wore white clothing. CAP members, with the exception of me, are not Chiss...
Exactly. Look how many members would be on board if we called them Thrawn suits!

Thrawn wore white. His skin was blue.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: winterg on December 14, 2015, 03:00:27 PM
Yes. But we called the old jumpsuits smurf suits and they wore white as well.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: THRAWN on December 14, 2015, 03:05:34 PM
Quote from: winterg on December 14, 2015, 02:57:01 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on December 14, 2015, 02:55:23 PM
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on December 13, 2015, 03:40:39 PM
Switch to BBDUs?   Bwahahaha, Bwa  bwa bwa!

CAP MEMBERS are NOT SMURFS!


>:D

Just kidding!

See how "switching to BBDUs" will easily create arguments against them?

Smurfs, with the exception of Papa, wore white clothing. CAP members, with the exception of me, are not Chiss...
Exactly. Look how many members would be on board if we called them Thrawn suits!

Count me in. And you just picked my COSPLAY kit for the movies on Thursday...
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: winterg on December 14, 2015, 03:20:48 PM
I'll be at a private showing for 501st members only and we will all be in our pajamas. Seriously! Lol
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: MAJORZ04 on December 14, 2015, 04:55:57 PM
If CAP changes to ABU...I suggest:
....... Keep the same blue name and CAP tags we have now
....... Keep the same Blue rank patches we have now
....... Keep the same blue wings/badges we have now
....... Allow option of wearing sqrdn hats or ABU (ABU hats with the same blue rank we have now)
....... Black Boots
....... Allow Wing Patch only... no other patches/tabs etc... Keeps all uniforms as simple as possible.
So the only real change is the ABU pants and shirt itself.  This will keep costs  down... as most members will already have
the Blue/White patches to transfer to ABU's.  We still keep CAP and USAF different.. (but close)  Vanguard already has stock
on blue/white insignia.
CAP does not need another uniform monster to contend with now !!
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Toad1168 on December 14, 2015, 05:11:54 PM
Quote from: MAJORZ04 on December 14, 2015, 04:55:57 PM
If CAP changes to ABU...I suggest:
....... Keep the same blue name and CAP tags we have now
....... Keep the same Blue rank patches we have now
....... Keep the same blue wings/badges we have now
....... Allow option of wearing sqrdn hats or ABU (ABU hats with the same blue rank we have now)
....... Black Boots
....... Allow Wing Patch only... no other patches/tabs etc... Keeps all uniforms as simple as possible.
So the only real change is the ABU pants and shirt itself.  This will keep costs  down... as most members will already have
the Blue/White patches to transfer to ABU's.  We still keep CAP and USAF different.. (but close)  Vanguard already has stock
on blue/white insignia.
CAP does not need another uniform monster to contend with now !!



I realize the cost of new patches, however the navy blue would look better IMHO.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: TheSkyHornet on December 14, 2015, 06:42:06 PM
Quote from: MAJORZ04 on December 14, 2015, 04:55:57 PM
If CAP changes to ABU...I suggest:
....... Keep the same blue name and CAP tags we have now
....... Keep the same Blue rank patches we have now
....... Keep the same blue wings/badges we have now
....... Allow option of wearing sqrdn hats or ABU (ABU hats with the same blue rank we have now)
....... Black Boots
....... Allow Wing Patch only... no other patches/tabs etc... Keeps all uniforms as simple as possible.
So the only real change is the ABU pants and shirt itself.  This will keep costs  down... as most members will already have
the Blue/White patches to transfer to ABU's.  We still keep CAP and USAF different.. (but close)  Vanguard already has stock
on blue/white insignia.
CAP does not need another uniform monster to contend with now !!

I'd prefer ABU rough-out combat boots.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: winterg on December 14, 2015, 06:47:05 PM
The idea to keep black boots to reduce financial burden on members seems like fairly sound thinking.  Which is why we will probably go with a boot hand made by Tibetan monks at $800 a pair if we switch. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: kirbahashi on December 14, 2015, 07:42:53 PM
And this is why the massive regulation re-write is going to go smoothly!!!

It was a test "limited in scope".  I would say extreme emphasis on limited...  I am sure the Chairman of the National Uniform Committee regrets not seeking CAPTalk approval prior to doing this.  He will chalk it up to "rookie mistake". 

Input will be solicited from the masses prior to it being ignored.  Nothing to see here, move along
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on December 14, 2015, 07:47:11 PM
Quote from: kirbahashi on December 14, 2015, 07:42:53 PM
And this is why the massive regulation re-write is going to go smoothly!!!

It was a test "limited in scope".  I would say extreme emphasis on limited...  I am sure the Chairman of the National Uniform Committee regrets not seeking CAPTalk approval prior to doing this.  He will chalk it up to "rookie mistake". 

Input will be solicited from the masses prior to it being ignored.  Nothing to see here, move along

Knowing my Wing CC (the NUC Chair) as I do, CAPTalk has about as much influence on his decisions as a cup of soup.

Limited in scope, yes. Very much so.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: THRAWN on December 14, 2015, 07:52:51 PM
Quote from: Toad1168 on December 14, 2015, 05:11:54 PM
Quote from: MAJORZ04 on December 14, 2015, 04:55:57 PM
If CAP changes to ABU...I suggest:
....... Keep the same blue name and CAP tags we have now
....... Keep the same Blue rank patches we have now
....... Keep the same blue wings/badges we have now
....... Allow option of wearing sqrdn hats or ABU (ABU hats with the same blue rank we have now)
....... Black Boots
....... Allow Wing Patch only... no other patches/tabs etc... Keeps all uniforms as simple as possible.
So the only real change is the ABU pants and shirt itself.  This will keep costs  down... as most members will already have
the Blue/White patches to transfer to ABU's.  We still keep CAP and USAF different.. (but close)  Vanguard already has stock
on blue/white insignia.
CAP does not need another uniform monster to contend with now !!



I realize the cost of new patches, however the navy blue would look better IMHO.

Looks are all well and good, but the aqua, for all of its faults, keeps us tied to our parent service. It's a legacy color and already exists. Keep the boots and t-shirts black, keep the insignia aqua, just change the uni if need be...
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: kirbahashi on December 14, 2015, 07:53:46 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on December 14, 2015, 07:47:11 PM
Knowing my Wing CC (the NUC Chair) as I do, CAPTalk has about as much influence on his decisions as a cup of soup.

Mmmm.... soup!  I love it!   ;D
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on December 14, 2015, 10:46:41 PM
Re: ABU Wear Test

From Major:

If CAP changes to ABU...I suggest:
....... Keep the same blue name and CAP tags we have now  :clap:
....... Keep the same Blue rank patches we have now  :clap:
....... Keep the same blue wings/badges we have now  :clap:
....... Allow option of wearing sqrdn hats or ABU (ABU hats with the same blue rank we have now)  :clap:
....... Black Boots  :clap:
....... Allow Wing Patch only...  :clap: no other patches/tabs etc... Keeps all uniforms as simple as possible.  >:(

I say last one is in direct contradiction of number 3. Why have the Flyer's Club keep their bling and punish Ground Teams by removing theirs? If Ground Teams lose their bling, take the Aeronautical bling away as well! It does not make any sense.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on December 14, 2015, 10:52:07 PM
There's a flyer's club?

Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: LSThiker on December 14, 2015, 10:56:44 PM
Luis, he is talking about NCSA patches and the like. He already mentioned above about keeping pilot wings and other badges.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on December 14, 2015, 10:58:23 PM
 >:D

If ya dont think ALL pilots, observers, and scanners want to be regarded as a Flyers Club, I will change my statement.

>:D

....... Keep the same blue wings/badges we have now
.......... no other patches/tabs etc...

Major, these two contradict each other. What makes the Aeronautical Badges so special to make those specialties above the Ground Team badges and others?

>:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: winterg on December 14, 2015, 11:02:03 PM
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on December 14, 2015, 10:58:23 PM
>:D
If ya dont think ALL pilots, observers, and scanners want to be regarded as a Flyers Club, I will change my statement.
>:D
....... Keep the same blue wings/badges we have now
.......... no other patches/tabs etc...
Major, these two contradict each other. What makes the Aeronautical Badges so special to make those specialties above the Ground Team badges and others?
>:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(

Luis,  You're still misreading his post.  He is saying that we SHOULD keep the all the badges, aeronautical and ground.  Just o away with all the other patches besides Wing.

My opinion, we finally have a chance to retire the ultramarine tapes.  I hope we take it.  It's been a good run, but it isn't 1965 anymore.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: FW on December 15, 2015, 12:32:56 AM
Quote from: Garibaldi on December 14, 2015, 07:47:11 PM
Quote from: kirbahashi on December 14, 2015, 07:42:53 PM
And this is why the massive regulation re-write is going to go smoothly!!!

It was a test "limited in scope".  I would say extreme emphasis on limited...  I am sure the Chairman of the National Uniform Committee regrets not seeking CAPTalk approval prior to doing this.  He will chalk it up to "rookie mistake". 

Input will be solicited from the masses prior to it being ignored.  Nothing to see here, move along

Knowing my Wing CC (the NUC Chair) as I do, CAPTalk has about as much influence on his decisions as a cup of soup.

Limited in scope, yes. Very much so.

Interesting... I think it was a slight bit more than a year ago, the CAP/CC made a very clear statement that the ABU would, in no way, be an addition to the CAP uniform firmament.  Oh, how the CT comments sting... >:D
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: MSG Mac on December 15, 2015, 01:19:33 AM
Different CAP Commander. Initial issue to all USAF members and agencies is complete freeing up the supply of surplus to need ABU's.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: SARDOC on December 15, 2015, 03:04:32 AM
1- " That is not an Authorized Civil Air Patrol uniform"
2- "Sure it is"
1- "Then why isn't in the regulations?"
2- "uh...It's a wear test"
1- "There wasn't any published information on this."
2- "uh...It's very limited in scope"
1- "Is this some kind of secret?"
2- "you already know too much."

-End Scene-
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Holding Pattern on December 15, 2015, 03:24:41 AM
I think that removing patches from the uniform is a bad idea. Volunteers are "paid" for lack of a better term with those cloth patches. It isn't much, but it is something that they earn and can wear with pride. Add to this that there are many members who can't/won't wear the AF uniform for various reasons and you have denied them yet another opportunity to show the time and effort they have put into CAP (and anyone who thinks that doesn't matter or that CAP is better without people who care about such things, well, you'll discover that people burn out faster when times get tough AND they have nothing to show for it vs when times get tough and they still have something to wear that symbolizes the work they did.)

And if you have cadets that can't afford patches, buy them patches. If your squadron is full of people that can't afford patches and your squadron funds are so low you can't buy the patches for the people that go through the work to get certified in varying specialties, then beg for money from your local patriotic organization for the money for the patches.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: SarDragon on December 15, 2015, 04:08:18 AM
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on December 14, 2015, 10:46:41 PM
Re: ABU Wear Test

From Major:

If CAP changes to ABU...I suggest:
....... Keep the same blue name and CAP tags we have now  :clap:
....... Keep the same Blue rank patches we have now  :clap:
....... Keep the same blue wings/badges we have now  :clap:
....... Allow option of wearing sqrdn hats or ABU (ABU hats with the same blue rank we have now)  :clap:
....... Black Boots  :clap:
....... Allow Wing Patch only...  :clap: no other patches/tabs etc... Keeps all uniforms as simple as possible.  >:(

I say last one is in direct contradiction of number 3. Why have the Flyer's Club keep their bling and punish Ground Teams by removing theirs? If Ground Teams lose their bling, take the Aeronautical bling away as well! It does not make any sense.

Wings and badges are different from patches and tabs. There's no mention of removing GT stuff.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on December 15, 2015, 04:09:47 AM
Quote from: SARDOC on December 15, 2015, 03:04:32 AM
1- " That is not an Authorized Civil Air Patrol uniform"
2- "Sure it is"
1- "Then why isn't in the regulations?"
2- "uh...It's a wear test"
1- "There wasn't any published information on this."
2- "uh...It's very limited in scope"
1- "Is this some kind of secret?"
2- "you already know too much."

-End Scene-

Guy I knew was issued the "aviator BDUs" before they were a thing (DA "wear test"). He was, I think, an E-6 at the time.

He's standing in the line at the PX and this Colonel behind him starts going off on him about how "all you [expletive deleted] aviators and your [expletive deleted] uniform modifications and crap"

My friend paid for his stuff, walked toward the door and then waited for the colonel to approach him, pulled the wear test memo out of his pocket...

the colonel apologized.

Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: PHall on December 15, 2015, 04:27:35 AM
Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on December 15, 2015, 03:24:41 AM
I think that removing patches from the uniform is a bad idea. Volunteers are "paid" for lack of a better term with those cloth patches. It isn't much, but it is something that they earn and can wear with pride. Add to this that there are many members who can't/won't wear the AF uniform for various reasons and you have denied them yet another opportunity to show the time and effort they have put into CAP (and anyone who thinks that doesn't matter or that CAP is better without people who care about such things, well, you'll discover that people burn out faster when times get tough AND they have nothing to show for it vs when times get tough and they still have something to wear that symbolizes the work they did.)

And if you have cadets that can't afford patches, buy them patches. If your squadron is full of people that can't afford patches and your squadron funds are so low you can't buy the patches for the people that go through the work to get certified in varying specialties, then beg for money from your local patriotic organization for the money for the patches.


Because it's a uniform not a NASCAR driver's fire suit.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Slim on December 15, 2015, 08:42:01 AM
If it should come to pass that unit patches aren't allowed on this new uniform, I do have one question.

To whom can my unit sent the request for reimbursement of the almost $700 we just spent for a 7-10 year supply of unit patches?

If CAP has to buy out Vanguard's stock of obsolete patches, only seems fair, right?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: A.Member on December 15, 2015, 03:55:36 PM
Quote from: winterg on December 11, 2015, 05:44:27 PM
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12/11/3d80bd84512e15e187facf2fda63db9f.jpg)
The one on the left, with black boots, looks great (although I'm good with the tan as well)...the boots make it more distinctive while still tying us to Ma Blue overall. 

Nice work Uniform Committee.  :clap:  Wrap it up and push it forward. :)

Those complaining about patches (or lack thereof)...really?!  ::)
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: A.Member on December 15, 2015, 04:02:43 PM
Quote from: Slim on December 15, 2015, 08:42:01 AM
If it should come to pass that unit patches aren't allowed on this new uniform, I do have one question.

To whom can my unit sent the request for reimbursement of the almost $700 we just spent for a 7-10 year supply of unit patches?

If CAP has to buy out Vanguard's stock of obsolete patches, only seems fair, right?
Who is foolish enough to buy a 7 to 10 year supply of unit patches?  Talk to that person.  They're not even required on current uniforms.  Reimbursement?  Get a grip.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: HGjunkie on December 15, 2015, 04:45:01 PM
Quote from: Slim on December 15, 2015, 08:42:01 AM
If it should come to pass that unit patches aren't allowed on this new uniform, I do have one question.

To whom can my unit sent the request for reimbursement of the almost $700 we just spent for a 7-10 year supply of unit patches?

If CAP has to buy out Vanguard's stock of obsolete patches, only seems fair, right?

Maybe give them to your members like you were going to do in the first place? Patches aren't solely for uniforms, they're cool things to put up on your wall or shadow box or whatever.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Chappie on December 15, 2015, 05:27:51 PM
Quote from: HGjunkie on December 15, 2015, 04:45:01 PM
Quote from: Slim on December 15, 2015, 08:42:01 AM
If it should come to pass that unit patches aren't allowed on this new uniform, I do have one question.

To whom can my unit sent the request for reimbursement of the almost $700 we just spent for a 7-10 year supply of unit patches?

If CAP has to buy out Vanguard's stock of obsolete patches, only seems fair, right?

Maybe give them to your members like you were going to do in the first place? Patches aren't solely for uniforms, they're cool things to put up on your wall or shadow box or whatever.

^^ Concur ^^  Patches are much cheaper than coins and are excellent tokens of appreciation.  They are great collectibles.    For a unit's informal/casual events, patches can be sewn on a shirt of their choosing ... or if you want to be more structured provide guidelines for the style/color so everyone matches. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on December 15, 2015, 11:27:00 PM
Those complaining about patches (or lack thereof)...really?! 


REALLY!

And why not? Did you pay fror CAPTalk so now you can dictate what and how we can feel or discuss?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Holding Pattern on December 15, 2015, 11:36:37 PM
Captalk has taught us well, what can we say?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: abdsp51 on December 15, 2015, 11:54:59 PM
Since we are talking patches I think that us CP guys should have a patch version of our CP badge. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: winterg on December 16, 2015, 12:10:50 AM
Every specialty track in CAP should have its own function badge like the Air Force has for AFSC's.  It would make so much more sense than the current pocket badges.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: lordmonar on December 16, 2015, 12:57:42 AM
Yep CP ES  and AE should have specialty badges (over the ribbons) in stead of the duty badges they got now.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: A.Member on December 16, 2015, 05:11:17 AM
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on December 15, 2015, 11:27:00 PM
Those complaining about patches (or lack thereof)...really?! 


REALLY!

And why not? Did you pay fror CAPTalk so now you can dictate what and how we can feel or discuss?
I paid the same as you and no one said you can't continue to whine about it.  You just sound silly doing so.  We're not the Cub Scouts.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on December 16, 2015, 11:08:56 AM
Ther comparison is... at best silly.

I have not seen anyone whining about it.

And people in here whine about other stuff.

I see you claim to hold the monopoly on what we can whine about.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Shuman 14 on December 16, 2015, 01:30:59 PM
Quote from: winterg on December 16, 2015, 12:10:50 AM
Every specialty track in CAP should have its own function badge like the Air Force has for AFSC's.  It would make so much more sense than the current pocket badges.

:clap:
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: THRAWN on December 16, 2015, 01:44:30 PM
I wear the boots that Colonel Knowles is wearing. The photo shows exactly why it is that I loathe them. If they get wet just a bit, or dirty, they look like junk. Stick with the black. They'd be distinctive enough and the maintenance isn't obnoxious.

As for the insignia, stick with the current wings and badges. I do agree that the "big three" should have matching insignia, similar to what CP and AE have now. Never understood why ES had that little "red badge of courage"...As for the other specialty insignia, get them embroidered and put them on. They'll look like the USAF med series...

Keep the uniform simple. Name, branch, specialty insignia, period.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: LTC Don on December 16, 2015, 02:30:52 PM
That other than black boots is even being considered is enough to call the NUC's credibility into question.  No matter the phase out date, black boots can last literally for decades for adults, no more than we wear them. There is absolutely no need or requirement to consider anything different given the cost for decent boots (easily $75-200). And I say this as someone who no longer bothers with the vagaries of the mi-spec uniforms, but readily wears the corporate style uniforms (although I still maintain some BDU sets for the rare occasion I get the twitch to go camo).

That said, I like the ABU look in general.  Coupled with that is the fact that our area surplus stores are stocking less and less of the woodland bdus (our closest surplus store doesn't bother trying to stock it at all anymore) so our folks are having to buy more and more new stuff.  If we are truly TotalForce, CAP should be the primary recipient of any surplus stocks of either woodland and/or ABU and should be coordinated through CAP-USAF.  Nothing should be going through to Federal Surplus/DRMO until CAP has a chance to screen it.  We've lost tons (literally) of Woodland over the years that should have come to CAP first before going out to Fed Surplus or to the States.

I went to State auction one time (years ago) that had at least two semi trailer loads of Woodland BDUs.  They went for pennies on the dollar and I asked the winning bidder what was going to happen to the lot (hoping he was an area surplus dealer).  He said, "Oh, that rag, it's all going to be shipped overseas."  That was at the time the Bosnia/Herzogovina conflict was happening so I can only wonder where all that great looking Woodland ended up.......  >:(
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: THRAWN on December 16, 2015, 02:46:26 PM
Quote from: LTC Don on December 16, 2015, 02:30:52 PM
That other than black boots is even being considered is enough to call the NUC's credibility into question.  No matter the phase out date, black boots can last literally for decades for adults, no more than we wear them. There is absolutely no need or requirement to consider anything different given the cost for decent boots (easily $75-200). And I say this as someone who no longer bothers with the vagaries of the mi-spec uniforms, but readily wears the corporate style uniforms (although I still maintain some BDU sets for the rare occasion I get the twitch to go camo).

That said, I like the ABU look in general.  Coupled with that is the fact that our area surplus stores are stocking less and less of the woodland bdus (our closest surplus store doesn't bother trying to stock it at all anymore) so our folks are having to buy more and more new stuff.  If we are truly TotalForce, CAP should be the primary recipient of any surplus stocks of either woodland and/or ABU and should be coordinated through CAP-USAF.  Nothing should be going through to Federal Surplus/DRMO until CAP has a chance to screen it.  We've lost tons (literally) of Woodland over the years that should have come to CAP first before going out to Fed Surplus or to the States.

I went to State auction one time (years ago) that had at least two semi trailer loads of Woodland BDUs.  They went for pennies on the dollar and I asked the winning bidder what was going to happen to the lot (hoping he was an area surplus dealer).  He said, "Oh, that rag, it's all going to be shipped overseas."  That was at the time the Bosnia/Herzogovina conflict was happening so I can only wonder where all that great looking Woodland ended up.......  >:(

Concur on the boots. I had a pair of black Rothcos that I wore just about daily of about 15 years. On the other hand, the boots that I wear with the ACU have been replaced twice in 3 years of infrequent wear.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: lordmonar on December 16, 2015, 05:22:36 PM
I wear my ABU boot at work.....and have for the last 9 years....still holding up great.

So YMMV.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: tribalelder on December 16, 2015, 05:33:01 PM
All new regs on hold pending the new codification scheme.

ABU's may be phased out for active duty for whatever the then-new all-service camouflage uniform is going to be. WE NEED NOT FRET ABOUT abu's yet.

BUT if we NEED to wear-test, wouldn't we get a more valid wear-test by sending 12 cadets to NBB, NESA, Hawk Mountain or PJOC  for 2 weeks.

Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on December 16, 2015, 05:54:15 PM
For those of you previous service that are saying that "Other than black boots did not last long therefore we should use black..." I have a question:

Back there, you used those boots every single day or almost. In a rough environment.

Do you think the service you gonna get in CAP in the future will be comparable to the service ya did when in the military?

I thought so.

I like the black boots better. But stating "We should use black boots because non-black boots do not last" probably does not/will not apply to CAP since we probably will not do as much as you did back then. It may be possible... the non-black boots may last enough in our service...

But if we have a vote on this, I go with the black boots...
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Holding Pattern on December 16, 2015, 06:25:58 PM
Black boots are easier to keep "uniform," brown boots tend to become "shades of brown" over time.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: SMWOG on December 16, 2015, 06:59:55 PM
Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on December 16, 2015, 06:25:58 PM
Black boots are easier to keep "uniform," brown boots tend to become "shades of brown" over time.

Sage is the color the USAF selected for their uniform....Its their call in the end.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Holding Pattern on December 16, 2015, 07:05:39 PM
Quote from: SMWOG on December 16, 2015, 06:59:55 PM
Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on December 16, 2015, 06:25:58 PM
Black boots are easier to keep "uniform," brown boots tend to become "shades of brown" over time.

Sage is the color the USAF selected for their uniform....Its their call in the end.

That doesn't mean we can't argue about it on captalk until said call is made. :P
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Storm Chaser on December 16, 2015, 07:15:05 PM
There may be many good reasons to stick with black boots, but I think they look off, if not plain ugly with ABUs.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: TheSkyHornet on December 16, 2015, 07:15:17 PM
Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on December 16, 2015, 07:05:39 PM
Quote from: SMWOG on December 16, 2015, 06:59:55 PM
Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on December 16, 2015, 06:25:58 PM
Black boots are easier to keep "uniform," brown boots tend to become "shades of brown" over time.

Sage is the color the USAF selected for their uniform....Its their call in the end.

That doesn't mean we can't argue about it on captalk until said call is made. :P

Are you implying that arguing about it on CAP Talk is going to end once said call is made?  ;)
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Holding Pattern on December 16, 2015, 07:16:49 PM
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on December 16, 2015, 07:15:17 PM
Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on December 16, 2015, 07:05:39 PM
Quote from: SMWOG on December 16, 2015, 06:59:55 PM
Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on December 16, 2015, 06:25:58 PM
Black boots are easier to keep "uniform," brown boots tend to become "shades of brown" over time.

Sage is the color the USAF selected for their uniform....Its their call in the end.

That doesn't mean we can't argue about it on captalk until said call is made. :P

Are you implying that arguing about it on CAP Talk is going to end once said call is made?  ;)
Only in that all the talk about what the call should be will be changed to why the call was so wrong. :D
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Paul Creed III on December 16, 2015, 07:52:31 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 16, 2015, 05:22:36 PM
I wear my ABU boot at work.....and have for the last 9 years....still holding up great.

So YMMV.

Which boots do you have?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: lordmonar on December 16, 2015, 07:58:44 PM
Quote from: Paul Creed III on December 16, 2015, 07:52:31 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 16, 2015, 05:22:36 PM
I wear my ABU boot at work.....and have for the last 9 years....still holding up great.

So YMMV.

Which boots do you have?
Vibram Sage Green
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Holding Pattern on December 16, 2015, 08:26:14 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on December 16, 2015, 07:15:05 PM
There may be many good reasons to stick with black boots, but I think they look off, if not plain ugly with ABUs.

But the ABUs look ugly already, so it will work out in the end, right?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: SARDOC on December 16, 2015, 08:31:27 PM
Ultimately, It's a Utility working uniform.  It should present a uniform professional appearance aside from getting dirty doing "work", I don't really see the benefit of going to the Green Boot.  I think whichever works best for the type of work we do and I think with the variety of black boots on the market our members have a wider selection (ie Price and/or functionality) than we do in the green boot market.

I'd like to see how the NUC decides to go on this.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: THRAWN on December 16, 2015, 08:33:02 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on December 16, 2015, 07:15:05 PM
There may be many good reasons to stick with black boots, but I think they look off, if not plain ugly with ABUs.

And that, of course is the ultimate decision point, correct Captain Kardashian?  8)
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: THRAWN on December 16, 2015, 08:33:53 PM
Quote from: SARDOC on December 16, 2015, 08:31:27 PM
Ultimately, It's a Utility working uniform.  It should present a uniform professional appearance aside from getting dirty doing "work", I don't really see the benefit of going to the Green Boot.  I think whichever works best for the type of work we do and I think with the variety of black boots on the market our members have a wider selection (ie Price and/or functionality) than we do in the green boot market.

I'd like to see how the NUC decides to go on this.

I'm interested as well. Hopefully they take into account some real world feedback on the issue.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: LSThiker on December 16, 2015, 09:29:52 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 16, 2015, 05:22:36 PM
I wear my ABU boot at work.....and have for the last 9 years....still holding up great.

So YMMV.

My tan Belleville boots have held up after quite some time. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: vorteks on December 16, 2015, 09:52:06 PM
Cadets will have to figure out how to shine them ABU boots for encampment...  >:D
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: THRAWN on December 16, 2015, 10:00:40 PM
Quote from: tribalelder on December 16, 2015, 05:33:01 PM
All new regs on hold pending the new codification scheme.

ABU's may be phased out for active duty for whatever the then-new all-service camouflage uniform is going to be. WE NEED NOT FRET ABOUT abu's yet.

BUT if we NEED to wear-test, wouldn't we get a more valid wear-test by sending 12 cadets to NBB, NESA, Hawk Mountain or PJOC  for 2 weeks.

Why? The purpose of a true wear test is to evaluate functionality and durability. That's been done by alleged professionals. It's doubtful that there is any new stresses that NBB can put on the uniform. Well, maybe some added strain to the buttons... All this test is doing is evaluating the look of the uniform with CAP specific insignia.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NCRblues on December 17, 2015, 02:50:03 AM
I have said nothing on this thread since my first post...

But this is something I dislike about CAP and have for a long time.

A "wear test" on a uniform that is worn 365 a year for years already is a joke and looked at as a joke by the AF rank and file and more than likely other uniformed services as well.

Want to see how it looks with shade 332 blue vs 333 blue (made up numbers btw)? Do it behind closed doors at NHQ, not at Arlington.

Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: MSG Mac on December 17, 2015, 03:01:56 AM
The USAF has wear tested the uniform for ten years, why does CAP have to reinvent the wheel? 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: lordmonar on December 17, 2015, 03:27:51 AM
Quote from: MSG Mac on December 17, 2015, 03:01:56 AM
The USAF has wear tested the uniform for ten years, why does CAP have to reinvent the wheel?
I already answered that the first time the question was asked.

The wear test is not to see if it hold up to operational use.....but to fashion show it to our USAF overlords to show that it does not look like ass. (and to see if they prefer black boots over tan/green).

No wheels being reinvented.  Just wear testing.

Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NCRblues on December 17, 2015, 04:12:47 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 17, 2015, 03:27:51 AM
Quote from: MSG Mac on December 17, 2015, 03:01:56 AM
The USAF has wear tested the uniform for ten years, why does CAP have to reinvent the wheel?
I already answered that the first time the question was asked.

The wear test is not to see if it hold up to operational use.....but to fashion show it to our USAF overlords to show that it does not look like ass. (and to see if they prefer black boots over tan/green).

No wheels being reinvented.  Just wear testing.

That simply had to be done at Arlington? Not at NHQ with CAP-USAF?  And of course it had to be region commanders, not your standard rank and file right?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: lordmonar on December 17, 2015, 04:19:49 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on December 17, 2015, 04:12:47 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 17, 2015, 03:27:51 AM
Quote from: MSG Mac on December 17, 2015, 03:01:56 AM
The USAF has wear tested the uniform for ten years, why does CAP have to reinvent the wheel?
I already answered that the first time the question was asked.

The wear test is not to see if it hold up to operational use.....but to fashion show it to our USAF overlords to show that it does not look like ass. (and to see if they prefer black boots over tan/green).

No wheels being reinvented.  Just wear testing.

That simply had to be done at Arlington? Not at NHQ with CAP-USAF?  And of course it had to be region commanders, not your standard rank and file right?
Why not?   As far as rank and file?   Any pentagon generals likely to drop by your meeting this week?   Arlington on Wreaths Across America day sounds like a prime time when you will get Pentagon types out doing some good and rubbing shoulders with common airman/soldiers/marines/Seaman....as well as CAP/JROTC/Sea Cadets/Young Marines cadets.

While doing it at Maxwell would have gotten CAP-USAF's attention....I think that they probably already saw it.   And let's face it.....if the goal is to get the big wigs on board with us getting the ABUs.....the fine officers at CAP-USAF are just small fish.

As for who actually wore the uniforms.....at least I can trust those two to keep it on the down low and not screw it up.   The same cannot be said for "your standard rank and file".....I mean look at us here on CAPTALK.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on December 17, 2015, 11:44:46 AM
Quote from: MSG Mac on December 17, 2015, 03:01:56 AM
The USAF has wear tested the uniform for ten years, why does CAP have to reinvent the wheel?

I seem to recall that the last time around, someone said "Meh, the military's been wearing these BDU things for a long time, so we'll just make these changes and push them out."

And we wound up looking like this for a year or so
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10391914_204243029480_5685878_n.jpg?oh=fa56f6f2e70f0bd71d1901b835ead1a2&oe=57172811)
until someone said "Whoa. Lets lose the white t-shirts.."

A wear test isn't to see how well the uniform wears, but how it works in the operational environment.  That includes the "optics"

Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on December 17, 2015, 01:22:23 PM
Our Christmas party was last night, and COL Greenwood, NUC chair and our wing CC was a guest. Having never met the man personally, I went up to him and introduced myself. I'm assuming he is incredibly tired of talking about uniforms, because when I mentioned the last NUC member I met was my former ARWG CC, and proceeded to tell him the story about what HE said the last time ABUs were on the table, he interrupted me and said, quite bluntly, "Don't mention those things to me right now. Please. Don't."

It's apparently a very tender topic for members of the NUC. People are either blasting the idea, peppering the NUC members with questions and suggestions, or asking when when when when (most likely cadets). If the responses here on CAPTalk are indicative of the types of questions/suggestions they get, I feel bad for them.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: JeffDG on December 17, 2015, 02:57:39 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on December 17, 2015, 01:22:23 PM
Our Christmas party was last night, and COL Greenwood, NUC chair and our wing CC was a guest. Having never met the man personally, I went up to him and introduced myself. I'm assuming he is incredibly tired of talking about uniforms, because when I mentioned the last NUC member I met was my former ARWG CC, and proceeded to tell him the story about what HE said the last time ABUs were on the table, he interrupted me and said, quite bluntly, "Don't mention those things to me right now. Please. Don't."

It's apparently a very tender topic for members of the NUC. People are either blasting the idea, peppering the NUC members with questions and suggestions, or asking when when when when (most likely cadets). If the responses here on CAPTalk are indicative of the types of questions/suggestions they get, I feel bad for them.

I've met Col Greenwood a couple of times, and really like him.  But he has to have been "[darnit], why did they put my name in that announcement."

If it were up to me, the membership of the NUC would be strictly confidential information.  The amount of crap they have to deal with is not worth it!
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: THRAWN on December 17, 2015, 03:02:44 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on December 17, 2015, 02:57:39 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on December 17, 2015, 01:22:23 PM
Our Christmas party was last night, and COL Greenwood, NUC chair and our wing CC was a guest. Having never met the man personally, I went up to him and introduced myself. I'm assuming he is incredibly tired of talking about uniforms, because when I mentioned the last NUC member I met was my former ARWG CC, and proceeded to tell him the story about what HE said the last time ABUs were on the table, he interrupted me and said, quite bluntly, "Don't mention those things to me right now. Please. Don't."

It's apparently a very tender topic for members of the NUC. People are either blasting the idea, peppering the NUC members with questions and suggestions, or asking when when when when (most likely cadets). If the responses here on CAPTalk are indicative of the types of questions/suggestions they get, I feel bad for them.

I've met Col Greenwood a couple of times, and really like him.  But he has to have been "[darnit], why did they put my name in that announcement."

If it were up to me, the membership of the NUC would be strictly confidential information.  The amount of crap they have to deal with is not worth it!

If it's too much crap, DON'T DO IT! Nobody is putting the sword to anyone to force them to be on the NUC. Guess listening to the concerns of the membership is "too much crap"...
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: TheSkyHornet on December 17, 2015, 03:26:57 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on December 17, 2015, 03:02:44 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on December 17, 2015, 02:57:39 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on December 17, 2015, 01:22:23 PM
Our Christmas party was last night, and COL Greenwood, NUC chair and our wing CC was a guest. Having never met the man personally, I went up to him and introduced myself. I'm assuming he is incredibly tired of talking about uniforms, because when I mentioned the last NUC member I met was my former ARWG CC, and proceeded to tell him the story about what HE said the last time ABUs were on the table, he interrupted me and said, quite bluntly, "Don't mention those things to me right now. Please. Don't."

It's apparently a very tender topic for members of the NUC. People are either blasting the idea, peppering the NUC members with questions and suggestions, or asking when when when when (most likely cadets). If the responses here on CAPTalk are indicative of the types of questions/suggestions they get, I feel bad for them.

I've met Col Greenwood a couple of times, and really like him.  But he has to have been "[darnit], why did they put my name in that announcement."

If it were up to me, the membership of the NUC would be strictly confidential information.  The amount of crap they have to deal with is not worth it!

If it's too much crap, DON'T DO IT! Nobody is putting the sword to anyone to force them to be on the NUC. Guess listening to the concerns of the membership is "too much crap"...

Agreed. Even if you don't want to hear it, hear it anyway, and then provide your response. It would be best to respond with "It's not subject I should talk about right now since we are still in discussions and I shouldn't share much information." Don't brush off a question just because you're tired of hearing it asked. The person asking doesn't know times you've been asked.

On that note, was it the proper time and place to bring it up?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on December 17, 2015, 03:58:24 PM
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on December 17, 2015, 03:26:57 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on December 17, 2015, 03:02:44 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on December 17, 2015, 02:57:39 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on December 17, 2015, 01:22:23 PM
Our Christmas party was last night, and COL Greenwood, NUC chair and our wing CC was a guest. Having never met the man personally, I went up to him and introduced myself. I'm assuming he is incredibly tired of talking about uniforms, because when I mentioned the last NUC member I met was my former ARWG CC, and proceeded to tell him the story about what HE said the last time ABUs were on the table, he interrupted me and said, quite bluntly, "Don't mention those things to me right now. Please. Don't."

It's apparently a very tender topic for members of the NUC. People are either blasting the idea, peppering the NUC members with questions and suggestions, or asking when when when when (most likely cadets). If the responses here on CAPTalk are indicative of the types of questions/suggestions they get, I feel bad for them.

I've met Col Greenwood a couple of times, and really like him.  But he has to have been "[darnit], why did they put my name in that announcement."

If it were up to me, the membership of the NUC would be strictly confidential information.  The amount of crap they have to deal with is not worth it!

If it's too much crap, DON'T DO IT! Nobody is putting the sword to anyone to force them to be on the NUC. Guess listening to the concerns of the membership is "too much crap"...

Agreed. Even if you don't want to hear it, hear it anyway, and then provide your response. It would be best to respond with "It's not subject I should talk about right now since we are still in discussions and I shouldn't share much information." Don't brush off a question just because you're tired of hearing it asked. The person asking doesn't know times you've been asked.

On that note, was it the proper time and place to bring it up?

I left out the context. Silly me. The conversation went somewhat like this:

"Nice to meet you finally, sir. The last wing commander in GAWG I met was ________ in the 80s."
"Oh, yeah, that was a long time ago. I remember him.'
"Actually, the last wing CC I met was when I was in Arkansas, COL Alexander. He was also on the NUC."
"I remember him."
"Funny story...when I first met him, ABUs were the hot topic too. Basically, he came in, sat down and said 'the first person that mentions ABUs, I will demote them and throw them out.'"
"Please don't mention them right now. Just. Don't."
"Understood. I wonder when they're going to start serving dinner..."

And no one mentioned them again.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: TarRiverRat on December 19, 2015, 01:52:05 AM
Just my humble opinion, but I wish they would spend more time on finding a uniform that everyone can wear and get off of this ABU nonsense.  It would be nice if everyone in CAP was uniformed for a change.  I am one that will not be able to wear the ABU or the current woodland BDU due to my weight at this time.  I have a health problem and the meds packed on the weight.  I am losing my weight and will hopefully meet the standards this coming year, but with that being said, I will not wear the ABUs or the standard BDU.  I will stick with the BBDU since that is the CAP distinctive uniform.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on December 19, 2015, 03:39:01 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on December 17, 2015, 03:02:44 PM
If it's too much crap, DON'T DO IT! Nobody is putting the sword to anyone to force them to be on the NUC. Guess listening to the concerns of the membership is "too much crap"...

OTOH, if you knew what kind of outright disrespectful and hate-filled emails that Colonel Griffith. the previous NUC chair, got about the US Flag removal when the last 39-1 came out, it might actually shake your opinion about how well our membership base embrace our core values...

There is "listening to the membership," and then there is wading thru dozens upon dozens of "you must be one of those anti-Americans!" emails just because your committee elected to simplify the uniform and bring it back to a wear method close to that which the USAF (not the Army) uses.

I had lunch at Orlando one day with Colonel Griffith and let me tell you. You better have some thick skin to take that particular job.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on December 19, 2015, 03:41:04 PM
BTW, I went looking for this. Its para 1-1 from the 1989 CAPM 39-1.  Somehow, over the years, the highlighted passage fell out of both the USAF and CAP uniform manuals. (argh, standby, the attachment was borked)

https://imgur.com/nrb42mh

Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: THRAWN on December 19, 2015, 04:27:49 PM
Quote from: NIN on December 19, 2015, 03:39:01 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on December 17, 2015, 03:02:44 PM
If it's too much crap, DON'T DO IT! Nobody is putting the sword to anyone to force them to be on the NUC. Guess listening to the concerns of the membership is "too much crap"...

OTOH, if you knew what kind of outright disrespectful and hate-filled emails that Colonel Griffith. the previous NUC chair, got about the US Flag removal when the last 39-1 came out, it might actually shake your opinion about how well our membership base embrace our core values...

There is "listening to the membership," and then there is wading thru dozens upon dozens of "you must be one of those anti-Americans!" emails just because your committee elected to simplify the uniform and bring it back to a wear method close to that which the USAF (not the Army) uses.

I had lunch at Orlando one day with Colonel Griffith and let me tell you. You better have some thick skin to take that particular job.

OTOOH, how many of us are former squadron commanders? How many of us have had the helicopter parent conversation after their second coming of Patton wasn't selected as cadet commander when you just know he is the most qualified? How many of us have been activity directors and had to endure the endless barrage of calls, emails, and face to face conversations about who was selected for positions and why their candidate wasn't? My point being, if you're going to be a member of this organization in any leadership capacity, you have to learn some people skills. Part of that is dealing with people who have strong and differing opinions than those of the organization. I've dealt with some vile stuff myself. Deal with it. Or walk away...
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on December 19, 2015, 04:30:37 PM
It's beginning to look like we are falling in 3 camps: Those who want ABUs (mostly cadets, but some seniors as well); those who don't, and want to keep BDUs; and those who don't, and want to move away from the AF style and stay with corporate BBDUs.

In an organization as large as ours, there are going to be plenty of divergent opinions as to how the organization is run, what we wear, what we do, who we get to do it, and how we do it.

There is no easy answer to any of this. No matter who thinks "it's a good idea" will meet with stiff resistance from one side, apathy from another, and support from a third. It's the "triangle thingy!" The new CPFT, for example, was the result of many man-hours of research, yet many of us feel that it's a dog's breakfast of contradictions, bad ideas, and bad change. Some think it's a good idea, and others are all "meh" about it.

ABUs have been a thorn in our collective sides since Ma Blue chose them to replace the woodland pattern BDU. There were some in the mid to late 80s who were adamant about us not changing from the pickle suits when BDUs were introduced, and some of those same people are also arguing against changing to the ABU for various reasons, most of which involve money, availability, or heritage.

I personally will be wearing whatever CAP tells me I can wear. I've recently caved in and purchased the gray tactical trousers for my polo shirt, since I'm now not able to see my toes over my belly, and I won't wear my BDUs until I lose the keg (don't even get me stared on the AF blue uniform). When the time comes, I will seek out my own set of ABUs, if that time ever arises.

And, as always, there would be no CAPTalk without diverging opinions, robust discussion, dog piling of cadets and seniors who refuse to RTFM, drive by trolls, and of course, uniform thread drift. So, keep that in mind as you grit your teeth, set your jaw, and plot your responses to those with differing opinions.

It's always going to be something. In 10 years, it'll be a different uniform. I'm starting a pool on how right I am about it. I'm giving 3 months on either side of 10 years from June 2016.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Holding Pattern on December 20, 2015, 10:16:19 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on December 19, 2015, 04:30:37 PM
It's beginning to look like we are falling in 3 camps: Those who want ABUs (mostly cadets, but some seniors as well); those who don't, and want to keep BDUs; and those who don't, and want to move away from the AF style and stay with corporate BBDUs.

In an organization as large as ours, there are going to be plenty of divergent opinions as to how the organization is run, what we wear, what we do, who we get to do it, and how we do it.

There is no easy answer to any of this. No matter who thinks "it's a good idea" will meet with stiff resistance from one side, apathy from another, and support from a third. It's the "triangle thingy!" The new CPFT, for example, was the result of many man-hours of research, yet many of us feel that it's a dog's breakfast of contradictions, bad ideas, and bad change. Some think it's a good idea, and others are all "meh" about it.

ABUs have been a thorn in our collective sides since Ma Blue chose them to replace the woodland pattern BDU. There were some in the mid to late 80s who were adamant about us not changing from the pickle suits when BDUs were introduced, and some of those same people are also arguing against changing to the ABU for various reasons, most of which involve money, availability, or heritage.

I personally will be wearing whatever CAP tells me I can wear. I've recently caved in and purchased the gray tactical trousers for my polo shirt, since I'm now not able to see my toes over my belly, and I won't wear my BDUs until I lose the keg (don't even get me stared on the AF blue uniform). When the time comes, I will seek out my own set of ABUs, if that time ever arises.

And, as always, there would be no CAPTalk without diverging opinions, robust discussion, dog piling of cadets and seniors who refuse to RTFM, drive by trolls, and of course, uniform thread drift. So, keep that in mind as you grit your teeth, set your jaw, and plot your responses to those with differing opinions.

It's always going to be something. In 10 years, it'll be a different uniform. I'm starting a pool on how right I am about it. I'm giving 3 months on either side of 10 years from June 2016.

Put me down for 2027. It's a good year for bets and conspiracy theories.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Spam on December 21, 2015, 07:09:02 AM
I'm betting on the next CAP uniform triggering the Singularity, as the volume of member time wasted on line jaw jackin' about uniforms exponentially expands.

V/R
Spam

Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: rustyjeeper on December 21, 2015, 09:25:25 AM
Texas Wing Civil Air Patrol
The following email is sent on behalf of Col Richard J. Greenwood, CAP, in his capacity as Chairman of the National Uniform Committee:

To All Members of the Command Council and the National Staff:
For some time now there has been a lot of discussion about Civil Air Patrol transitioning to a new utility uniform, due to several issues with the current BDU. One option was for us to seek approval to transition to the ABU. In the past, the decision was made to delay transitioning to the ABU for many reasons. Recent events have made it possible for us to reconsider that decision.

Currently, the National Uniform Committee has been examining the possibility of transitioning to the ABU uniform, and what a CAP specific ABU might look like. As part of that proposal, there will be wear tests conducted by some members. Many of you may have seen a photograph circling around the Internet that shows two CAP Officers wearing one prototype of the ABU uniform.

I would like to assure you all that these wear tests will be very limited in scope, and have been approved by CAP-USAF and the National Commander for the specific purpose of testing the viability of a CAP ABU.

We are in the very early stages of this proposal. There is absolutely no guarantee that CAP will pursue the option to transition to a version of the ABU. As such, I would caution you against purchasing any ABU items until such time as a final decision is made.
Please share this information with your subordinate commanders

Susan P. Parker
HQ CAP Chief, Personnel & Member Actions

U.S. Air Force Auxiliary
gocivilairpatrol.com
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on December 21, 2015, 02:11:47 PM
Rusty, you're about a week late on this.  ::)
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: TheSkyHornet on December 21, 2015, 04:05:28 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on December 19, 2015, 04:27:49 PM
Quote from: NIN on December 19, 2015, 03:39:01 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on December 17, 2015, 03:02:44 PM
If it's too much crap, DON'T DO IT! Nobody is putting the sword to anyone to force them to be on the NUC. Guess listening to the concerns of the membership is "too much crap"...

OTOH, if you knew what kind of outright disrespectful and hate-filled emails that Colonel Griffith. the previous NUC chair, got about the US Flag removal when the last 39-1 came out, it might actually shake your opinion about how well our membership base embrace our core values...

There is "listening to the membership," and then there is wading thru dozens upon dozens of "you must be one of those anti-Americans!" emails just because your committee elected to simplify the uniform and bring it back to a wear method close to that which the USAF (not the Army) uses.

I had lunch at Orlando one day with Colonel Griffith and let me tell you. You better have some thick skin to take that particular job.

OTOOH, how many of us are former squadron commanders? How many of us have had the helicopter parent conversation after their second coming of Patton wasn't selected as cadet commander when you just know he is the most qualified? How many of us have been activity directors and had to endure the endless barrage of calls, emails, and face to face conversations about who was selected for positions and why their candidate wasn't? My point being, if you're going to be a member of this organization in any leadership capacity, you have to learn some people skills. Part of that is dealing with people who have strong and differing opinions than those of the organization. I've dealt with some vile stuff myself. Deal with it. Or walk away...

Laughed my butt off.

But really loved this post. How many times have you made a recommendation to a superior and they came back with "We're going to do it this way?" And do you know what you should do? "Yes, Sir/Ma'am." It's done. That's it. That's your order. Get to it.

Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on December 21, 2015, 08:13:12 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on December 19, 2015, 04:27:49 PM
OTOOH, how many of us are former squadron commanders? How many of us have had the helicopter parent conversation after their second coming of Patton wasn't selected as cadet commander when you just know he is the most qualified? How many of us have been activity directors and had to endure the endless barrage of calls, emails, and face to face conversations about who was selected for positions and why their candidate wasn't? My point being, if you're going to be a member of this organization in any leadership capacity, you have to learn some people skills. Part of that is dealing with people who have strong and differing opinions than those of the organization. I've dealt with some vile stuff myself. Deal with it. Or walk away...

Many times. I've been a squadron commander 5 times.   Heck, lets not talk about Patton, Reincarnated, lets just talk about not promoting a guy to C/TSgt on day 59 cuz he needed to "season" a bit.  The rotor wash was extensive.

There is a difference between "having people skills in a leadership position" (Colonel Griffith was a successful Wing Commander) and people who outright "don't get it."

I'm not talking "Helicopter Mom" here  (LOLz: http://auxnewsnow.com/2015/12/quadcopter-mom-a-first-for-local-squadron/ (http://auxnewsnow.com/2015/12/quadcopter-mom-a-first-for-local-squadron/)) (EDIT: forgot the daggone link the first time)

No, I'm talking "Captain Bagodonuts from Pocatello" ("example SM, one ea.") sending an email VFR direct to a colonel with an absolute tirade that went way, way, way beyond the pale of what a member should be doing.  Seriously.  Like "You must be some kind of commie" tirades.  Words like "Un-American" "how dare you??" and "Man up!" (huh?)

hello?  The guy was the chair of committee that made a decision. He was even done being a wing commander.  Nobody, leadership position or not, should have to put up with level of abject disrespect.  Seriously.

(Most of the folks who'd emailed him hadn't been in CAP but maybe 2 years, so its not like any of them even remember when the flag got authorized)

Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: A.Member on December 21, 2015, 08:59:35 PM
Quote from: NIN on December 21, 2015, 08:13:12 PM
No, I'm talking "Captain Bagodonuts from Pocatello" ("example SM, one ea.") sending an email VFR direct to a colonel with an absolute tirade that went way, way, way beyond the pale of what a member should be doing.  Seriously.  Like "You must be some kind of commie" tirades.  Words like "Un-American" "how dare you??" and "Man up!" (huh?)
If as serious and flagrant as you indicate, at the very least, I'd expect "Captain Bagodonuts" received a letter of reprimand and demotion as a result.  Too much of that B.S. goes unchecked and that is unsat!
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on December 21, 2015, 09:07:22 PM
Quote from: A.Member on December 21, 2015, 08:59:35 PM
Quote from: NIN on December 21, 2015, 08:13:12 PM
No, I'm talking "Captain Bagodonuts from Pocatello" ("example SM, one ea.") sending an email VFR direct to a colonel with an absolute tirade that went way, way, way beyond the pale of what a member should be doing.  Seriously.  Like "You must be some kind of commie" tirades.  Words like "Un-American" "how dare you??" and "Man up!" (huh?)
If as serious and flagrant as you indicate, at the very least, I'd expect "Captain Bagodonuts" received a letter of reprimand and demotion as a result.  Too much of that B.S. goes unchecked and that is unsat!

No disagreement here.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: RiverAux on December 21, 2015, 09:53:53 PM
Okay, speaking as someone who is personally very familiar with the line between can and can't wear AF-style uniforms, I do have to wonder about whether that line has been crossed by those pictured in the wear test.  But, yep, I'm going to be "that guy" and go there...
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: rustyjeeper on December 21, 2015, 10:16:34 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on December 21, 2015, 09:53:53 PM
Okay, speaking as someone who is personally very familiar with the line between can and can't wear AF-style uniforms, I do have to wonder about whether that line has been crossed by those pictured in the wear test.  But, yep, I'm going to be "that guy" and go there...


I too was thinking that. But with my penchant for endearing myself to those higher in the chain I for once, decided to keep my mouth shut. Thanks for saying what I was thinking!
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Sapper168 on December 22, 2015, 02:53:16 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on December 21, 2015, 09:53:53 PM
Okay, speaking as someone who is personally very familiar with the line between can and can't wear AF-style uniforms, I do have to wonder about whether that line has been crossed by those pictured in the wear test.  But, yep, I'm going to be "that guy" and go there...

It's all good, the tested 'prototype' uniforms are not official CAP uniforms so no regs are broken.    >:D 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Storm Chaser on December 22, 2015, 08:26:53 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on December 19, 2015, 04:30:37 PM
It's beginning to look like we are falling in 3 camps: Those who want ABUs (mostly cadets, but some seniors as well); those who don't, and want to keep BDUs; and those who don't, and want to move away from the AF style and stay with corporate BBDUs.

What about the fourth camp of those of us who don't really care whether we wear BDUs, BBDUs, or ABUs, but would like a single utility uniform that all members can wear.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Shuman 14 on December 23, 2015, 12:51:02 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on December 22, 2015, 08:26:53 PM
What about the fourth camp of those of us who don't really care whether we wear BDUs, BBDUs, or ABUs, but would like a single utility uniform that all members can wear.

:clap:
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on December 23, 2015, 07:35:12 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on December 22, 2015, 08:26:53 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on December 19, 2015, 04:30:37 PM
It's beginning to look like we are falling in 3 camps: Those who want ABUs (mostly cadets, but some seniors as well); those who don't, and want to keep BDUs; and those who don't, and want to move away from the AF style and stay with corporate BBDUs.

What about the fourth camp of those of us who don't really care whether we wear BDUs, BBDUs, or ABUs, but would like a single utility uniform that all members can wear.


Could be resolved if the #TotalForce allows CAP ABUs for all.



Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: TheSkyHornet on December 23, 2015, 07:59:23 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on December 23, 2015, 07:35:12 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on December 22, 2015, 08:26:53 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on December 19, 2015, 04:30:37 PM
It's beginning to look like we are falling in 3 camps: Those who want ABUs (mostly cadets, but some seniors as well); those who don't, and want to keep BDUs; and those who don't, and want to move away from the AF style and stay with corporate BBDUs.

What about the fourth camp of those of us who don't really care whether we wear BDUs, BBDUs, or ABUs, but would like a single utility uniform that all members can wear.


Could be resolved if the #TotalForce allows CAP ABUs for all.

Does that apply to the grooming and weight standards as well?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: nomad129 on December 23, 2015, 09:20:35 PM
Transitioning to ABUs is probably inevitable. For what it's worth, my opinion is that unlike our active duty brethren nothing in our mission requires any type of camouflage. Luckily ABUs, just like their ACU counterparts, don't actually blend in with anything, anywhere. I think we should drop camouflage uniforms entirely for blue BDUs, maybe in a more modern cut like ACUs though. I also think it's time to adopt orange shirts for search and rescue because wearing camouflage in these missions to totally counter productive...
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on December 23, 2015, 09:32:17 PM
Quote from: nomad129 on December 23, 2015, 09:20:35 PM
Transitioning to ABUs is probably inevitable. For what it's worth, my opinion is that unlike our active duty brethren nothing in our mission requires any type of camouflage. Luckily ABUs, just like their ACU counterparts, don't actually blend in with anything, anywhere. I think we should drop camouflage uniforms entirely for blue BDUs, maybe in a more modern cut like ACUs though. I also think it's time to adopt orange shirts for search and rescue because wearing camouflage in these missions to totally counter productive...

I hate to say I agree with you. Especially in the North Georgia mountains, where the foliage is so thick in places we can barely see a person two feet from you. Orange would definitely be safer.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: PHall on December 23, 2015, 09:38:23 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on December 23, 2015, 09:32:17 PM
Quote from: nomad129 on December 23, 2015, 09:20:35 PM
Transitioning to ABUs is probably inevitable. For what it's worth, my opinion is that unlike our active duty brethren nothing in our mission requires any type of camouflage. Luckily ABUs, just like their ACU counterparts, don't actually blend in with anything, anywhere. I think we should drop camouflage uniforms entirely for blue BDUs, maybe in a more modern cut like ACUs though. I also think it's time to adopt orange shirts for search and rescue because wearing camouflage in these missions to totally counter productive...

I hate to say I agree with you. Especially in the North Georgia mountains, where the foliage is so thick in places we can barely see a person two feet from you. Orange would definitely be safer.

Of course if you were wearing the orange vest that you are required to wear during ES activities you would be visible.
But I guess following the regs can be inconvenient.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: lordmonar on December 23, 2015, 09:43:16 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on December 23, 2015, 09:32:17 PM
Quote from: nomad129 on December 23, 2015, 09:20:35 PM
Transitioning to ABUs is probably inevitable. For what it's worth, my opinion is that unlike our active duty brethren nothing in our mission requires any type of camouflage. Luckily ABUs, just like their ACU counterparts, don't actually blend in with anything, anywhere. I think we should drop camouflage uniforms entirely for blue BDUs, maybe in a more modern cut like ACUs though. I also think it's time to adopt orange shirts for search and rescue because wearing camouflage in these missions to totally counter productive...

I hate to say I agree with you. Especially in the North Georgia mountains, where the foliage is so thick in places we can barely see a person two feet from you. Orange would definitely be safer.
And neither one of you understand why so many want the ABU and BDU in the first place. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on December 23, 2015, 09:43:54 PM
Quote from: PHall on December 23, 2015, 09:38:23 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on December 23, 2015, 09:32:17 PM
Quote from: nomad129 on December 23, 2015, 09:20:35 PM
Transitioning to ABUs is probably inevitable. For what it's worth, my opinion is that unlike our active duty brethren nothing in our mission requires any type of camouflage. Luckily ABUs, just like their ACU counterparts, don't actually blend in with anything, anywhere. I think we should drop camouflage uniforms entirely for blue BDUs, maybe in a more modern cut like ACUs though. I also think it's time to adopt orange shirts for search and rescue because wearing camouflage in these missions to totally counter productive...

I hate to say I agree with you. Especially in the North Georgia mountains, where the foliage is so thick in places we can barely see a person two feet from you. Orange would definitely be safer.

Of course if you were wearing the orange vest that you are required to wear during ES activities you would be visible.
But I guess following the regs can be inconvenient.

You ain't seen the foliage we gots here. Even a orange vest ain't always visible
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on December 23, 2015, 09:56:44 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on December 23, 2015, 09:43:54 PM
Quote from: PHall on December 23, 2015, 09:38:23 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on December 23, 2015, 09:32:17 PM
Quote from: nomad129 on December 23, 2015, 09:20:35 PM
Transitioning to ABUs is probably inevitable. For what it's worth, my opinion is that unlike our active duty brethren nothing in our mission requires any type of camouflage. Luckily ABUs, just like their ACU counterparts, don't actually blend in with anything, anywhere. I think we should drop camouflage uniforms entirely for blue BDUs, maybe in a more modern cut like ACUs though. I also think it's time to adopt orange shirts for search and rescue because wearing camouflage in these missions to totally counter productive...

I hate to say I agree with you. Especially in the North Georgia mountains, where the foliage is so thick in places we can barely see a person two feet from you. Orange would definitely be safer.

Of course if you were wearing the orange vest that you are required to wear during ES activities you would be visible.
But I guess following the regs can be inconvenient.

You ain't seen the foliage we gots here. Even a orange vest ain't always visible


And how would a small triangle at the neckline help in BBDUs?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Storm Chaser on December 23, 2015, 10:11:26 PM
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on December 23, 2015, 07:59:23 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on December 23, 2015, 07:35:12 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on December 22, 2015, 08:26:53 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on December 19, 2015, 04:30:37 PM
It's beginning to look like we are falling in 3 camps: Those who want ABUs (mostly cadets, but some seniors as well); those who don't, and want to keep BDUs; and those who don't, and want to move away from the AF style and stay with corporate BBDUs.

What about the fourth camp of those of us who don't really care whether we wear BDUs, BBDUs, or ABUs, but would like a single utility uniform that all members can wear.


Could be resolved if the #TotalForce allows CAP ABUs for all.

Does that apply to the grooming and weight standards as well?

I think relaxing weight standards is definitely possible, but grooming standards are a different issue. While there may be religious or health reasons for not meeting certain grooming standards, most of the time is a matter of choice. I'm not sure the Air Force would go for that. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on December 23, 2015, 10:42:45 PM
Garibaldi-

If the thick foliage prevents people from seeing an orange vest, an orange shirt may not make that big of a difference...

>:D
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: PHall on December 24, 2015, 12:58:30 AM
Quote from: Garibaldi on December 23, 2015, 09:43:54 PM
Quote from: PHall on December 23, 2015, 09:38:23 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on December 23, 2015, 09:32:17 PM
Quote from: nomad129 on December 23, 2015, 09:20:35 PM
Transitioning to ABUs is probably inevitable. For what it's worth, my opinion is that unlike our active duty brethren nothing in our mission requires any type of camouflage. Luckily ABUs, just like their ACU counterparts, don't actually blend in with anything, anywhere. I think we should drop camouflage uniforms entirely for blue BDUs, maybe in a more modern cut like ACUs though. I also think it's time to adopt orange shirts for search and rescue because wearing camouflage in these missions to totally counter productive...

I hate to say I agree with you. Especially in the North Georgia mountains, where the foliage is so thick in places we can barely see a person two feet from you. Orange would definitely be safer.

Of course if you were wearing the orange vest that you are required to wear during ES activities you would be visible.
But I guess following the regs can be inconvenient.

You ain't seen the foliage we gots here. Even a orange vest ain't always visible

If it's that thick then how can you see what you're looking for?  I don't think tripping over them is a viable option!
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: abdsp51 on December 24, 2015, 01:18:34 AM
Folks are forgetting one thing that's the big issue with this.  The DoD has to allow it not the AF and Total Force is not the cure all and be all you think it is or is going to be.  And should we transition to it the H&W and grooming will probably stay the same. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on December 24, 2015, 11:36:06 AM
Quote from: PHall on December 24, 2015, 12:58:30 AM
Quote from: Garibaldi on December 23, 2015, 09:43:54 PM
Quote from: PHall on December 23, 2015, 09:38:23 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on December 23, 2015, 09:32:17 PM
Quote from: nomad129 on December 23, 2015, 09:20:35 PM
Transitioning to ABUs is probably inevitable. For what it's worth, my opinion is that unlike our active duty brethren nothing in our mission requires any type of camouflage. Luckily ABUs, just like their ACU counterparts, don't actually blend in with anything, anywhere. I think we should drop camouflage uniforms entirely for blue BDUs, maybe in a more modern cut like ACUs though. I also think it's time to adopt orange shirts for search and rescue because wearing camouflage in these missions to totally counter productive...

I hate to say I agree with you. Especially in the North Georgia mountains, where the foliage is so thick in places we can barely see a person two feet from you. Orange would definitely be safer.

Of course if you were wearing the orange vest that you are required to wear during ES activities you would be visible.
But I guess following the regs can be inconvenient.

You ain't seen the foliage we gots here. Even a orange vest ain't always visible

If it's that thick then how can you see what you're looking for?  I don't think tripping over them is a viable option!

You would be surprised at the number of missing persons searches I've been on. The terrain rough, foliage thick, and it was our assigned AO due to the LKP/place last seen, etc.

As a lot of people say, it's all well and good to think its not a good idea, but you weren't there. Our last save in 1989 had members in the worst possible terrain imaginable, and pretty lousy wx to boot.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: goblin on December 24, 2015, 02:27:18 PM

Quote from: abdsp51 on December 24, 2015, 01:18:34 AM
Folks are forgetting one thing that's the big issue with this.  The DoD has to allow it not the AF and Total Force is not the cure all and be all you think it is or is going to be.  And should we transition to it the H&W and grooming will probably stay the same.

This.

Total Force means absolutely nothing.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: TheSkyHornet on December 24, 2015, 02:50:15 PM
Quote from: Goblin on December 24, 2015, 02:27:18 PM

Quote from: abdsp51 on December 24, 2015, 01:18:34 AM
Folks are forgetting one thing that's the big issue with this.  The DoD has to allow it not the AF and Total Force is not the cure all and be all you think it is or is going to be.  And should we transition to it the H&W and grooming will probably stay the same.

This.

Total Force means absolutely nothing.

Exactly. It's a recognition and morale booster. That's all.

The subject of uniforms is about uniformity, feasibility, and purpose, not what we're entitled to.

I'm personally not a fan of opening military uniforms to all personnel because of the H&W/Grooming concerns. Yes, while we do have mission needs, we also need to strongly consider the public perception of a 300-lb person with a beard in a military uniform. This isn't to insult anyone's physical fitness or appearance. This is just societal norms. The public doesn't look kindly upon seeing someone in a uniform that looks completely out of place. We need to be very mindful of how this portrays the Air Force or any other branch.

Personal story:
Had a cadet show up in blues one day with a goatee and side burns. His uniform looked great, but his appearance looked like hell. I pulled him aside, and asked him what was going on with the facial hair, and followed up with "When you go out, people don't know that you're a CAP cadet or that you're not Air Force. They know none of this. They see a person in a uniform that looks the way you do right now. Now what do you think their perception of this would be?"

So think about that when we consider what uniform we want and who's going to wear it.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on December 24, 2015, 03:58:48 PM
(http://11mvce1u204yohuqc313738f.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Gen.-Michael-Cunniff-e1450903578698.jpg)

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/09/22/15/2CA43BE300000578-3244712-image-m-2_1442931582150.jpg)

Guess the AF doesn't quite have the same hold ups on this as some members in CAP.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: winterg on December 24, 2015, 04:00:48 PM
That general is Air Guard (I believe) and was ordered by Christie to shape up after this.  If it is the recent story I am remembering.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on December 24, 2015, 04:11:59 PM
Quote from: winterg on December 24, 2015, 04:00:48 PM
That general is Air Guard (I believe) and was ordered by Christie to shape up after this.  If it is the recent story I am remembering.


He was reprimanded by the Pentagon for failing the waist measurement test. They don't care what he looks like as long as he makes tape, basically. He ended up passing this week I believe.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: winterg on December 24, 2015, 04:14:04 PM
Had to find the article. 

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/chris-christie-national-guard_56015404e4b00310edf876f0
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: kwe1009 on December 24, 2015, 04:27:44 PM
Simple question:  Why do so many CAP members want to switch from a uniform that was mostly loved by those military members who wore it to ABUs?  The ABU is almost universally hated by those forced to wear it because it is uncomfortable, expensive, and the boots are difficult to keep clean if you wear them in the field.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Holding Pattern on December 24, 2015, 04:37:17 PM
Quote from: kwe1009 on December 24, 2015, 04:27:44 PM
Simple question:  Why do so many CAP members want to switch from a uniform that was mostly loved by those military members who wore it to ABUs?  The ABU is almost universally hated by those forced to wear it because it is uncomfortable, expensive, and the boots are difficult to keep clean if you wear them in the field.

Uniformity and availability.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on December 24, 2015, 04:44:16 PM
Quote from: kwe1009 on December 24, 2015, 04:27:44 PM
Simple question:  Why do so many CAP members want to switch from a uniform that was mostly loved by those military members who wore it to ABUs?  The ABU is almost universally hated by those forced to wear it because it is uncomfortable, expensive, and the boots are difficult to keep clean if you wear them in the field.

In a word: change.

In a few more words, cadets and not a few seniors think they are kewl. A lot of SMs, myself included, are tired of the quality of the current BDUs, as the real military issue uniforms are becoming harder to find than a large pizza at a Weight Watcher's convention. Some more SMs, who either are currently AD, Reserve, or just out of the AF, are sick to death of them, much in the way many soldiers, sailors, Marines and airmen are sick to death of wearing a uniform day in, day out. I knew a SM in Arkansas who wore nothing but the smurf suit. I asked him why, and he said after 25+ years of wearing his AF uniform, he was sick to death of it and would proudly wear the smurf suit until he** froze over, or in his case, when they were phased out.

Personally, I don't care if we get rid of BDUs and go with the ABU OR the BBDU. I'm getting too fat and fuzzy to wear the AF style uniform and I can't seem to lose weight for the life of me. Just give me something to wear and I'm cool.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Storm Chaser on December 24, 2015, 06:32:04 PM
And the debate never ends...

I currently wear BDUs. I've contemplated wearing BBDUs, but I own several BDU sets, and haven't had the need to spend extra money for a set of BBDUs. That said, if CAP one day decides we're moving to BBDUs as our sole utility/field uniform, I'd gladly spend the money. But I'm also not opposed to wearing the ABUs. I just wish we got away from so many styles of uniforms that are not uniformed at all.

In addition, if we are going to wear the ABU, I hope we don't make it any more "distinctive" and ugly than it needs to be. I like black boots, but I don't think they look good with ABUs. There's a reason none of the Armed Forces, with the exception of the Navy and Coast Guard for obvious reasons, are wearing black boots with their current utility uniforms. Adopting green sage boots means many of our members will be able to get them at Surplus Stores, Airman Attics, or donated by current and former Air Force members. If we go to tan boots, which the Air Force authorized in the beginning of the ABU adoption, then we'll have even more procurement sources, as the Army wears these.

The same goes for black t-shirts. Why would we want to wear those with this uniform? If we're not to wear the tan t-shirts worn by the Air Force, then I would argue for navy blue to match the grade insignias, badges, and Civil Air Patrol and name tapes. Which brings me to my last point. Why would we want to wear the same ultramarine color on ABUs? I get that it would same money, but it just doesn't look good. If we have to be distinctive, lets move to navy blue for both ABUs and BBDUs.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: lordmonar on December 24, 2015, 07:07:43 PM
Quote from: kwe1009 on December 24, 2015, 04:27:44 PM
Simple question:  Why do so many CAP members want to switch from a uniform that was mostly loved by those military members who wore it to ABUs?  The ABU is almost universally hated by those forced to wear it because it is uncomfortable, expensive, and the boots are difficult to keep clean if you wear them in the field.
a) We want to look like our parent organization. b) your assumption that the BDU was "mostly loved" is not true.  Ask the right age of military personnel and a large number of them would love to go back to the ODs.   c) Your assumption that the ABUs are "almost universally hated" is also false.   I loved my ABUs.  They were much easier to take care of.   They may have been more expensive to buy....but when you factored in that I did not have to dry clean them I saved hundreds of dollars over the lifetime of the uniforms.   Add to that the time saved from having to polish boots.   As for keeping the boots clean......brush them off and you are good to go!


Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: kwe1009 on December 24, 2015, 07:10:41 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on December 24, 2015, 06:32:04 PM
And the debate never ends...

I currently wear BDUs. I've contemplated wearing BBDUs, but I own several BDU sets, and haven't had the need to spend extra money for a set of BBDUs. That said, if CAP one day decides we're moving to BBDUs as our sole utility/field uniform, I'd gladly spend the money. But I'm also not opposed to wearing the ABUs. I just wish we got away from so many styles of uniforms that are not uniformed at all.

In addition, if we are going to wear the ABU, I hope we don't make it any more "distinctive" and ugly than it needs to be. I like black boots, but I don't think they look good with ABUs. There's a reason none of the Armed Forces, with the exception of the Navy and Coast Guard for obvious reasons, are wearing black boots with their current utility uniforms. Adopting green sage boots means many of our members will be able to get them at Surplus Stores, Airman Attics, or donated by current and former Air Force members. If we go to tan boots, which the Air Force authorized in the beginning of the ABU adoption, then we'll have even more procurement sources, as the Army wears these.

The same goes for black t-shirts. Why would we want to wear those with this uniform? If we're not to wear the tan t-shirts worn by the Air Force, then I would argue for navy blue to match the grade insignias, badges, and Civil Air Patrol and name tapes. Which brings me to my last point. Why would we want to wear the same ultramarine color on ABUs? I get that it would same money, but it just doesn't look good. If we have to be distinctive, lets move to navy blue for both ABUs and BBDUs.

Good points.  I would suggest that we stick with black boots no matter what uniform CAP decides for us.  They are easy to find almost anywhere and pretty inexpensive.  The problem with the tan or sage boots is keeping them clean after tromping through the mud on an ES mission/activity.  Black boots can be easily wiped off and polished. 

While sage boots and ABUs may be easy to come by near an Air Force base, the same can't be said for those locations far away from any military base.  They will never be seen in quantities like the BDU simply because they will not be manufactured in those numbers.  The market will dry up as soon as the Air Force moves to another pattern.

Price is another issue.  The ABU runs about $100 for a hat, shirt, and pants ($80 from AAFES).  The Sage boots are $100 and up.  The BDU on Vanguard is only $82 and you can find black boots for $35 and up.  So the cost difference (new items only) between ABU and BDU is around $83 for the ABU.  With the new Curry Blues Voucher not covering as much of the cost of blues as the old way, the cost to be a cadet would skyrocket and for really no good reason.  It is still easy to find new BDUs and they are cheaper than ABUs.  Don't forget if we switch to ABU, that will likely mean new cold weather gear as the BDU field jackets and Gortex won't be authorized.  That can easily add another $200 to the overall cost to get an APECS jacket.

I always felt silly wearing the ABU because it doesn't camouflage you from anything.

At the end of the day there is really only one reason to move to ABUs, people think they will look cool. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: lordmonar on December 24, 2015, 07:16:20 PM
Quote from: kwe1009 on December 24, 2015, 07:10:41 PM
I always felt silly wearing the ABU because it doesn't camouflage you from anything.

At the end of the day there is really only one reason to move to ABUs, people think they will look cool.
No....the ABU camouflage you from everything.   That is what a universal camouflage pattern is supposed to do. :)

And finally.....what is wrong with wanting to look cool?  Is that not one of the reasons why uniforms were invented in the first place?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on December 24, 2015, 07:20:05 PM
People keep quoting prices for NEW ABUs. When this kerfuffle all started, I went and bought an entire set, minus insignia, for under $60. Used, off Evil Bay and local sources. It can happen that some will choose new, because airman/nco stripes are hard to remove without leaving signs, and surely they are going to spend a lot. We have suffered with used BDUs from DRMO, surplus stores, and donations, that have had badges ripped off and stitch remnants, which makes them unserviceable for the most part. I'm sure we'll encounter that issue when and if the time comes with the ABU as well.

But it can be done. Let's end this debate for now, until it becomes more of a reality. Then we can begin trashing the subject again.

Seacrest out.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: kwe1009 on December 24, 2015, 07:21:56 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 24, 2015, 07:07:43 PM
Quote from: kwe1009 on December 24, 2015, 04:27:44 PM
Simple question:  Why do so many CAP members want to switch from a uniform that was mostly loved by those military members who wore it to ABUs?  The ABU is almost universally hated by those forced to wear it because it is uncomfortable, expensive, and the boots are difficult to keep clean if you wear them in the field.
a) We want to look like our parent organization. b) your assumption that the BDU was "mostly loved" is not true.  Ask the right age of military personnel and a large number of them would love to go back to the ODs.   c) Your assumption that the ABUs are "almost universally hated" is also false.   I loved my ABUs.  They were much easier to take care of.   They may have been more expensive to buy....but when you factored in that I did not have to dry clean them I saved hundreds of dollars over the lifetime of the uniforms.   Add to that the time saved from having to polish boots.   As for keeping the boots clean......brush them off and you are good to go!

I would love to go back to ODs as well (or DCU).  I never said that the BDU was the most loved uniform ever.  I said "mostly loved" and I don't recall ever hearing anyone complain about the fit.  I heard lots of complaints about the price compared to the ODs but they were cheaper than ABUs.  I honestly haven't come across anyone who would say they liked the ABU over the BDU.  The BDU is just as easy to care for as the ABU.  I wash and dry them the same way, no issues.  No ironing really needed for the BDU unless you got the summer weights.  I never dry cleaned my BDUs.  I never spent more than 15 minutes/week polishing boots and they stayed highly polished and shiny. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: lordmonar on December 24, 2015, 07:28:09 PM
Quote from: kwe1009 on December 24, 2015, 07:21:56 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 24, 2015, 07:07:43 PM
Quote from: kwe1009 on December 24, 2015, 04:27:44 PM
Simple question:  Why do so many CAP members want to switch from a uniform that was mostly loved by those military members who wore it to ABUs?  The ABU is almost universally hated by those forced to wear it because it is uncomfortable, expensive, and the boots are difficult to keep clean if you wear them in the field.
a) We want to look like our parent organization. b) your assumption that the BDU was "mostly loved" is not true.  Ask the right age of military personnel and a large number of them would love to go back to the ODs.   c) Your assumption that the ABUs are "almost universally hated" is also false.   I loved my ABUs.  They were much easier to take care of.   They may have been more expensive to buy....but when you factored in that I did not have to dry clean them I saved hundreds of dollars over the lifetime of the uniforms.   Add to that the time saved from having to polish boots.   As for keeping the boots clean......brush them off and you are good to go!

I would love to go back to ODs as well (or DCU).  I never said that the BDU was the most loved uniform ever.  I said "mostly loved" and I don't recall ever hearing anyone complain about the fit.  I heard lots of complaints about the price compared to the ODs but they were cheaper than ABUs.  I honestly haven't come across anyone who would say they liked the ABU over the BDU.  The BDU is just as easy to care for as the ABU.  I wash and dry them the same way, no issues.  No ironing really needed for the BDU unless you got the summer weights.  I never dry cleaned my BDUs.  I never spent more than 15 minutes/week polishing boots and they stayed highly polished and shiny.
I liked ABUs better then BDUs.   So you can't say that anymore.   And while YMMV on how much you were able to get away with on AD in taking care of your BDUs....not everyone lived in the same Air Force.   ABUs cut a lot of expense and time saving from my Air Force life.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: TarRiverRat on December 25, 2015, 04:06:00 AM
I still say if we are going to go to an updated or different uniform then we need to go to one that ALL members can wear and not a select few.  If not all members can wear the BDU or the ABU then we all need to go to one that we can.  BBDU fits that bill.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: lordmonar on December 25, 2015, 07:18:01 AM
Quote from: TarRiverRat on December 25, 2015, 04:06:00 AM
I still say if we are going to go to an updated or different uniform then we need to go to one that ALL members can wear and not a select few.  If not all members can wear the BDU or the ABU then we all need to go to one that we can.  BBDU fits that bill.
Or......we could just tell those who refuse to meet standards "thanks for playing",  :)

The problem is......looking like the USAF IS  important to our rank and file.   And doing away with the USAF style uniforms will affect the membership and the nature of CAP.

The status quo is and always has been a compromise between these two issues.

If we went all corporate a not insignificant number of members would quit.
The USAF says you must meeting weight and grooming standards to wear their uniform.....so we would have to kick out a not insignificant number of members to go all USAF uniforms.

If you can figure out how to solve one or the other of these problems.....I'm all ears.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Holding Pattern on December 26, 2015, 02:48:31 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 25, 2015, 07:18:01 AM
Quote from: TarRiverRat on December 25, 2015, 04:06:00 AM
I still say if we are going to go to an updated or different uniform then we need to go to one that ALL members can wear and not a select few.  If not all members can wear the BDU or the ABU then we all need to go to one that we can.  BBDU fits that bill.
Or......we could just tell those who refuse to meet standards "thanks for playing",  :)

The problem is......looking like the USAF IS  important to our rank and file.   And doing away with the USAF style uniforms will affect the membership and the nature of CAP.

The status quo is and always has been a compromise between these two issues.

If we went all corporate a not insignificant number of members would quit.
The USAF says you must meeting weight and grooming standards to wear their uniform.....so we would have to kick out a not insignificant number of members to go all USAF uniforms.

If you can figure out how to solve one or the other of these problems.....I'm all ears.

Make an optional CAP distinctive uniform that is worth wearing?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Storm Chaser on December 26, 2015, 04:26:45 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 25, 2015, 07:18:01 AM
Quote from: TarRiverRat on December 25, 2015, 04:06:00 AM
I still say if we are going to go to an updated or different uniform then we need to go to one that ALL members can wear and not a select few.  If not all members can wear the BDU or the ABU then we all need to go to one that we can.  BBDU fits that bill.
Or......we could just tell those who refuse to meet standards "thanks for playing",  :)
If we went all corporate a not insignificant number of members would quit.

Can you show exact numbers? How do you know this for a fact? Have you or CAP ever conducted an official survey?

I know some people may be in for the uniform, but I'm not convinced it's the majority, at least not in the senior member side. Of course, every squadron, group and wing is different. In my group, most senior members wear corporate uniforms as a choice. Many, if not most, prefer the polo combination. I know in other groups/units, most wear Air Force-style uniforms instead. They want to look more military. But what are the actual numbers?

The reason many members don't like the corporate uniforms is because they're not true equivalents to their Air Force-style counterparts. Those who care about looking more military want a flight cap and a service dress jacket for their corporate uniform. They also want standardized pants. If we had a good-looking, professional corporate uniform that showed our link to the Air Force and our CAP heritage, how many people would actually leave CAP because of the uniform?

I agree that no solution is a perfect solution. Eliminate the Air Force-style uniform and many members (How many? I don't know) may chose to leave CAP. Eliminate the corporate uniform and many members will have to leave CAP. Keep the status quo and we may keep the current members and continue to have these debates and discussions about uniforms. We'll continue to focus on the wrong things.

But what about the future? That's the real question we need to ask. We know the status quo keeps things relatively unchanged in the present. But would a single, standardized, professional looking uniform that every member can wear with pride, one that doesn't discriminate against half of our senior membership and doesn't forget about our link to the Air Force, be better for CAP in the long run?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: sarmed1 on December 26, 2015, 04:47:22 PM
As an AF guy, I am ok with the idea of one uniform.  I have no problem with CAP attempting to follow the reasonable appearance standard much like the USAF does.  That at least will solve most weight related concerns and the medical associated issues.  I would say draw the line at grooming issues.  You like long hair and a beard, too bad:  cut it and shave it.  You have 10 holes in your ear, too bad, take them out for CAP.

mk

 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Fubar on December 27, 2015, 07:05:07 AM
Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on December 26, 2015, 02:48:31 AMMake an optional CAP distinctive uniform that is worth wearing?

You'd loose the folks who are in this organization to look like they're in the military, as our corporate variations need to be civilian in nature (otherwise, the USAF wouldn't have an issue with everyone looking military in their USAF-style uniform). What's tough to predict are the percentages on how CAP overall would be impacted.

For example, what percentage of the membership currently regularly wears USAF-style uniforms (ignoring for the moment if they are within regulations to do so). From that, what percentage would quit if they were no longer allowed to look very similar to someone in the armed forces? From there, you should also consider what percentage of the folks quitting are worth having anyway (are they the hard working squadron staffers who also enjoy creases and shined shoes, or only the guys who show up with all their ribbons and contribute nothing)?

I doubt anybody can predict the percentages well enough to know if we should make any changes or not. Let's say 50% of the membership is wearing USAF-style uniforms, but only 10% of them would quit, and then only 1% of the quitters are actively contributing? Compared to 75% of the membership is likes to wear USAF-style uniforms, 80% of them would quit if they went away, and over half of them are actively contributing to the organization?

Plus you have some cultural biases within wings. In mine, for seniors the polo rules the day, with the rare flight suit or BDU sprinkled in. Cadets by rule are 100% USAF-style. In my wing, moving to a true uniform would have minimal impact on seniors, but a reasonable person can't conclude what's good for my wing will work nationwide. I have no idea what cadets would do in response to moving to one non-military uniform (look how they reacted to dropping the American flag from BDUs).

I don't know how one could make informed decisions about this without obtaining some polling data, but I have no idea what the accuracy is for that sort of thing.

There are no easy answers, if there were, 90% of the discussion topics on this board wouldn't be wasted upon a topic that provides little operational impact for our organization because we'd have a uniform we'd all be happy with. Until then, the current compromise is what we're stuck with.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: goblin on December 27, 2015, 12:52:01 PM

Quote from: Fubar on December 27, 2015, 07:05:07 AM
Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on December 26, 2015, 02:48:31 AMMake an optional CAP distinctive uniform that is worth wearing?

You'd loose the folks who are in this organization to look like they're in the military...

Good!

Is that really a member you want in the program?  One who is only interested in playing military and would quit if he/she couldn't?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on December 27, 2015, 02:15:44 PM
What is wrong with that, as long as (s)he is doing a job in the squadron?

If CAP keeps the sane missions, ie Aerospace, ES, and Cadet Programs, who would be best to motivate and coach cadets? A member with no military knowledge, or a member who is interested in the program because of that connection?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: goblin on December 27, 2015, 02:18:14 PM
If the uniform is the deciding factor then there is something wrong with that. That person is self serving rather than serving a greater purpose.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on December 27, 2015, 02:23:11 PM
Again, what is wrong with having a self-serving person in the organization if they are working to meet the goals?

We could argue that if you are employed by X company, because you are getting paid, your goals are also self-serving. Should I get rid of you since you are self-serving?

Monetary gains can be equal to other motivators in volunteer organizations.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: goblin on December 27, 2015, 02:25:21 PM
I guess I have an unrealistic view that people would be in this program to serve its missions and not to play Air Force on Facebook.

YMMV
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on December 27, 2015, 02:31:47 PM
So you are saying that if you are in CAP to "play Air Force," you are not able to do the three missions? That it is mutually exclusive?!!!

Again, some may be in to play Air Force. Others are not. But it is in the organization's best interest not to dismiss those that are working to achieve the goals of the organization no matter what their motivation.

Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: goblin on December 27, 2015, 02:33:50 PM
I'm saying if you need the uniform and the "status" to want to serve this program than your priorities are in the wrong order.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: sarmed1 on December 27, 2015, 03:32:16 PM
I think a more accurate description would be there are people here because of the para-military aspect of the organization and sometimes specifically the near direct affiliation to the USAF.  Either because of previous military service or the fact that the had desired to serve and were ineligible for some reason.  Loss of a military-esque uniform brings the organization down to a level they see no more military than the boy scouts or local fire dept; which could equally use their talent or support rather than CAP if they eliminate the USAF style uniform.  As a USAF member I dont see that as "playing" Air Force

mk
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Fubar on December 27, 2015, 06:34:18 PM
Clearly we have people in this organization who find looking military a huge draw, otherwise they wouldn't be wearing our USAF-style uniforms against the height & weight regulations (if they didn't care, they wouldn't mind wearing the corporate uniforms). Based on photos posted from national gatherings, a fair amount of those folks are at the higher echelons of our organization. To be at that level, I think it's safe to assume they're actively contributing to our organization. How many of them would quit if we standardized on one corporate uniform?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Nuke52 on December 28, 2015, 01:58:04 AM
Quote from: Goblin on December 27, 2015, 12:52:01 PM
Quote from: Fubar on December 27, 2015, 07:05:07 AM
You'd loose the folks who are in this organization to look like they're in the military...
Good!
Is that really a member you want in the program?  One who is only interested in playing military and would quit if he/she couldn't?

Quote from: Goblin on December 27, 2015, 02:18:14 PM
If the uniform is the deciding factor then there is something wrong with that. That person is self serving rather than serving a greater purpose.

Quote from: Goblin on December 27, 2015, 02:25:21 PM
I guess I have an unrealistic view that people would be in this program to serve its missions and not to play Air Force on Facebook.
YMMV

Quote from: Goblin on December 27, 2015, 02:33:50 PM
I'm saying if you need the uniform and the "status" to want to serve this program than your priorities are in the wrong order.

Methinks thou doth protest too much...
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: kwe1009 on December 28, 2015, 02:31:59 AM
Everyone joins any organization (including CAP) for their own reasons.  We may see some of those reasons as good and others as bad.  As long as the member is servicing and doing a good job then I really don't care why they joined. 

Many people join the military because they want to serve their country and many join simply for financial reasons (money for college).  Is one person serving better because of the reason they joined?  Of course not!  The reason someone joins has nothing to do with how well they are serving or how valuable they are to the organization. 

We all joined for different reasons and we should not be quick to judge others because their reason is not as noble as others.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on December 28, 2015, 02:45:38 AM
Ta heck with this ABU/BBDU/BDU business. I went a'Goodwilling today and found a practically brand-new OG-107 poly-cotton shirt. Seriously, looks brand new, no fading or patch detritus. I also found a blue Wooly-Pully that I didn't buy. If its there tomorrow I may purchase it.

*Hums while sewing patches on...*
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Storm Chaser on December 28, 2015, 05:33:04 AM
I think we spend too much time talking about uniforms.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Holding Pattern on December 28, 2015, 06:27:45 AM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on December 28, 2015, 05:33:04 AM
I think we spend too much time talking about uniforms.

Wholehearted agreement, with the caveat that this is one of the few threads where it is actually on topic.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: vesryn on December 29, 2015, 01:34:13 PM
So I'm reasonably sure that either this thread is dead or the following has already been restated.

The NER Commander recently came to RCLS and answered questions about the ABU deployment.

Quote from: Goblin on December 11, 2015, 06:14:30 PM
#notoffical
This test was official and allowed per the BoG and National Commander.

Quote from: A.Member on December 11, 2015, 06:16:56 PM
"Wear testing" but they can't even get matching color boots?  Hmmm...
Wearing different boots was intentional. It is still unknown whether we will switch to the green/tan boots or stick with the leather boots, though the draft chapter of CAPM 39-1 is currently written with black leather boots.

Quote from: Garibaldi on December 11, 2015, 07:01:49 PM
And why are we even talking about it again? The decision was made several years ago BY CAP to take ABUs off the table. It is a non-issue. It is a dead horse. It has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS A DEAD HORSE!!!
Certainly not a dead horse.  As stated before, the BoG already has a (pretty much) complete section of CAPM 39-1 ready. All that is necessary for deployment is AF approval.

Quote from: Garibaldi on December 12, 2015, 01:54:17 PM
So I'm seeing that wing patches wouldn't be worn. Is this correct, or just part of the many types of tests they're running with regards to color of insignia, boots, and such?
There will be no patches on the ABU uniform, just like the AF. Only the name tape and CAP tape.

Quote from: 1st Lt Thompson on December 13, 2015, 02:33:30 PM
Like any uniform change, if this does go through, they will have a lengthy phase in date. You'll have a few years to pick up what you need, they aren't going to change to a new uniform and make you switch in a month.

(If the AF approves the change) there will be a 5 year phase in beginning in March 1st of 2016.

I stopped reading the tread after page 6, so sorry If I didn't answer your question.

Oh, and the summer NCSA applications should be up on January 9th. There will be 3 glider academies this year, down from 4.

As usual, all this information is subject to change without notice. None of this is set in stone.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: abdsp51 on December 29, 2015, 04:38:15 PM
Quote from: Trenzalorian on December 29, 2015, 01:34:13 PM
So I'm reasonably sure that either this thread is dead or the following has already been restated.

The NER Commander recently came to RCLS and answered questions about the ABU deployment.

Quote from: Goblin on December 11, 2015, 06:14:30 PM
#notoffical
This test was official and allowed per the BoG and National Commander.

Quote from: A.Member on December 11, 2015, 06:16:56 PM
"Wear testing" but they can't even get matching color boots?  Hmmm...
Wearing different boots was intentional. It is still unknown whether we will switch to the green/tan boots or stick with the leather boots, though the draft chapter of CAPM 39-1 is currently written with black leather boots.

Quote from: Garibaldi on December 11, 2015, 07:01:49 PM
And why are we even talking about it again? The decision was made several years ago BY CAP to take ABUs off the table. It is a non-issue. It is a dead horse. It has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS A DEAD HORSE!!!
Certainly not a dead horse.  As stated before, the BoG already has a (pretty much) complete section of CAPM 39-1 ready. All that is necessary for deployment is AF approval.

Quote from: Garibaldi on December 12, 2015, 01:54:17 PM
So I'm seeing that wing patches wouldn't be worn. Is this correct, or just part of the many types of tests they're running with regards to color of insignia, boots, and such?
There will be no patches on the ABU uniform, just like the AF. Only the name tape and CAP tape.

Quote from: 1st Lt Thompson on December 13, 2015, 02:33:30 PM
Like any uniform change, if this does go through, they will have a lengthy phase in date. You'll have a few years to pick up what you need, they aren't going to change to a new uniform and make you switch in a month.

(If the AF approves the change) there will be a 5 year phase in beginning in March 1st of 2016.

I stopped reading the tread after page 6, so sorry If I didn't answer your question.

Oh, and the summer NCSA applications should be up on January 9th. There will be 3 glider academies this year, down from 4.

As usual, all this information is subject to change without notice. None of this is set in stone.

Not up to the AF it is DoD approval that is required. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Storm Chaser on December 29, 2015, 05:58:51 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on December 29, 2015, 04:38:15 PM
Quote from: Trenzalorian on December 29, 2015, 01:34:13 PM
So I'm reasonably sure that either this thread is dead or the following has already been restated.

The NER Commander recently came to RCLS and answered questions about the ABU deployment.

Quote from: Goblin on December 11, 2015, 06:14:30 PM
#notoffical
This test was official and allowed per the BoG and National Commander.

Quote from: A.Member on December 11, 2015, 06:16:56 PM
"Wear testing" but they can't even get matching color boots?  Hmmm...
Wearing different boots was intentional. It is still unknown whether we will switch to the green/tan boots or stick with the leather boots, though the draft chapter of CAPM 39-1 is currently written with black leather boots.

Quote from: Garibaldi on December 11, 2015, 07:01:49 PM
And why are we even talking about it again? The decision was made several years ago BY CAP to take ABUs off the table. It is a non-issue. It is a dead horse. It has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS A DEAD HORSE!!!
Certainly not a dead horse.  As stated before, the BoG already has a (pretty much) complete section of CAPM 39-1 ready. All that is necessary for deployment is AF approval.

Quote from: Garibaldi on December 12, 2015, 01:54:17 PM
So I'm seeing that wing patches wouldn't be worn. Is this correct, or just part of the many types of tests they're running with regards to color of insignia, boots, and such?
There will be no patches on the ABU uniform, just like the AF. Only the name tape and CAP tape.

Quote from: 1st Lt Thompson on December 13, 2015, 02:33:30 PM
Like any uniform change, if this does go through, they will have a lengthy phase in date. You'll have a few years to pick up what you need, they aren't going to change to a new uniform and make you switch in a month.

(If the AF approves the change) there will be a 5 year phase in beginning in March 1st of 2016.

I stopped reading the tread after page 6, so sorry If I didn't answer your question.

Oh, and the summer NCSA applications should be up on January 9th. There will be 3 glider academies this year, down from 4.

As usual, all this information is subject to change without notice. None of this is set in stone.

Not up to the AF it is DoD approval that is required.

Not according to AFI 10-2701, Para. 1.3.2 and 1.3.3, which clearly states that the CAP-USAF/CC is the approval authority for CAP's Air Force-style uniforms.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: vesryn on December 29, 2015, 06:07:57 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on December 29, 2015, 05:58:51 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on December 29, 2015, 04:38:15 PM
Quote from: Trenzalorian on December 29, 2015, 01:34:13 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on December 11, 2015, 07:01:49 PM
And why are we even talking about it again? The decision was made several years ago BY CAP to take ABUs off the table. It is a non-issue. It is a dead horse. It has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS A DEAD HORSE!!!
Certainly not a dead horse.  As stated before, the BoG already has a (pretty much) complete section of CAPM 39-1 ready. All that is necessary for deployment is AF approval.

Quote from: 1st Lt Thompson on December 13, 2015, 02:33:30 PM
Like any uniform change, if this does go through, they will have a lengthy phase in date. You'll have a few years to pick up what you need, they aren't going to change to a new uniform and make you switch in a month.

(If the AF approves the change) there will be a 5 year phase in beginning in March 1st of 2016.

I stopped reading the tread after page 6, so sorry If I didn't answer your question.

Not up to the AF it is DoD approval that is required.

Not according to AFI 10-2701, Para. 1.3.2 and 1.3.3, which clearly states that the CAP-USAF/CC is the approval authority for CAP's Air Force-style uniforms.

Agreed. http://www.cap-ny153.org/CAP%20Org%20Chart.jpg (http://www.cap-ny153.org/CAP%20Org%20Chart.jpg) <-- Here's a simplified version of the structure of CAP. CAP-USAF is the only obstacle towards ABU deployment at this stage.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: lordmonar on December 29, 2015, 07:45:39 PM
abdsp51 may be referring to the supposed DOD memorandum that says ABUs, ACUs and other IR technology uniforms can't be sold or given to non DOD personnel with out their authorizations.

It was pointed out that when this was first brought to our attention that it is a BS road block as they sell the stupid things online and at surplus stores to anyone with the money.   

One would speculate that if DOD was really hot about that....then they would have shut down those sources a long time ago.
In fact my first set of ABUs were purchased direct from the manufacturer before they were available at AAFES.....so it was a non-enforced policy from day one as far as the ABUs were concerned.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Storm Chaser on December 29, 2015, 08:46:28 PM
Quote from: Trenzalorian on December 29, 2015, 06:07:57 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on December 29, 2015, 05:58:51 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on December 29, 2015, 04:38:15 PM
Quote from: Trenzalorian on December 29, 2015, 01:34:13 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on December 11, 2015, 07:01:49 PM
And why are we even talking about it again? The decision was made several years ago BY CAP to take ABUs off the table. It is a non-issue. It is a dead horse. It has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS A DEAD HORSE!!!
Certainly not a dead horse.  As stated before, the BoG already has a (pretty much) complete section of CAPM 39-1 ready. All that is necessary for deployment is AF approval.

Quote from: 1st Lt Thompson on December 13, 2015, 02:33:30 PM
Like any uniform change, if this does go through, they will have a lengthy phase in date. You'll have a few years to pick up what you need, they aren't going to change to a new uniform and make you switch in a month.

(If the AF approves the change) there will be a 5 year phase in beginning in March 1st of 2016.

I stopped reading the tread after page 6, so sorry If I didn't answer your question.

Not up to the AF it is DoD approval that is required.

Not according to AFI 10-2701, Para. 1.3.2 and 1.3.3, which clearly states that the CAP-USAF/CC is the approval authority for CAP's Air Force-style uniforms.

Agreed. http://www.cap-ny153.org/CAP%20Org%20Chart.jpg (http://www.cap-ny153.org/CAP%20Org%20Chart.jpg) <-- Here's a simplified version of the structure of CAP. CAP-USAF is the only obstacle towards ABU deployment at this stage.

That org chart is outdated. We no longer have Wing Liaison Offices. The current version of AFI 10-2701 was published on 31 July 2014.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: TheSkyHornet on December 29, 2015, 09:21:48 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on December 29, 2015, 08:46:28 PM
Quote from: Trenzalorian on December 29, 2015, 06:07:57 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on December 29, 2015, 05:58:51 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on December 29, 2015, 04:38:15 PM
Quote from: Trenzalorian on December 29, 2015, 01:34:13 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on December 11, 2015, 07:01:49 PM
And why are we even talking about it again? The decision was made several years ago BY CAP to take ABUs off the table. It is a non-issue. It is a dead horse. It has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS A DEAD HORSE!!!
Certainly not a dead horse.  As stated before, the BoG already has a (pretty much) complete section of CAPM 39-1 ready. All that is necessary for deployment is AF approval.

Quote from: 1st Lt Thompson on December 13, 2015, 02:33:30 PM
Like any uniform change, if this does go through, they will have a lengthy phase in date. You'll have a few years to pick up what you need, they aren't going to change to a new uniform and make you switch in a month.

(If the AF approves the change) there will be a 5 year phase in beginning in March 1st of 2016.

I stopped reading the tread after page 6, so sorry If I didn't answer your question.

Not up to the AF it is DoD approval that is required.

Not according to AFI 10-2701, Para. 1.3.2 and 1.3.3, which clearly states that the CAP-USAF/CC is the approval authority for CAP's Air Force-style uniforms.

Agreed. http://www.cap-ny153.org/CAP%20Org%20Chart.jpg (http://www.cap-ny153.org/CAP%20Org%20Chart.jpg) <-- Here's a simplified version of the structure of CAP. CAP-USAF is the only obstacle towards ABU deployment at this stage.

That org chart is outdated. We no longer have Wing Liaison Offices. The current version of AFI 10-2701 was published on 31 July 2014.

Twice in this thread, two outdated references were linked.

Use current information, folks. This is how bad gouge gets spread and we end up with clueless, incompetent leaders who spend time arguing over what's true and what's not true.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Ned on December 29, 2015, 09:27:42 PM
Quote from: Trenzalorian on December 29, 2015, 01:34:13 PM
As stated before, the BoG already has a (pretty much) complete section of CAPM 39-1 ready. All that is necessary for deployment is AF approval.

I'm pretty sure you mean the NUC (National Uniform Committee) and not the BoG (Board of Governors).  As a fairly recent member of both, I can tell you that the NUC does in fact have a chapter ready to be approved and perhaps more importantly, the BoG does not do uniforms.  They do policy.

Quote from: lordmonar on December 29, 2015, 07:45:39 PM
abdsp51 may be referring to the supposed DOD memorandum that says ABUs, ACUs and other IR technology uniforms can't be sold or given to non DOD personnel with out their authorizations.

Hmmm.  Less "supposed" that real.  I've seen it several times, and had it in hand when discussing this very issue with the CAP-USAF commander.

QuoteIt was pointed out that when this was first brought to our attention that it is a BS road block as they sell the stupid things online and at surplus stores to anyone with the money.   

One would speculate that if DOD was really hot about that....then they would have shut down those sources a long time ago.

I think you may be overstating that a bit for effect, perhaps.  Because the issue isn't what the DoD does or fails to do to enforce it's policies.  The point is that they (DoD) do in fact have a policy that prohibits ABU use by CAP.  In my view we were inadvertently left of the list of authorized users, but nonetheless it exists.  (FWIW, every AF general I've spoken to on this privately shares my belief that we were simply inadvertently left off the list.)

But our AF colleagues correctly believe that their hands are tied until and unless we get a change / exemption to the existing DoD policy,  IOW, they cannot issue a written authorization for CAP to go to ABU that directly conflicts with an existing (and perhaps less-than-vigorously enforced) DoD policy.

Now, after speaking with multiple AF general officers on this, the consensus is that the AF is generally OK with CAP wearing ABU, and they are likely to support any request we make to DoD (through channels) for a change / exemption to the policy.  But CAP actually has to put together a request and send it forward through the AF to DoD. 

Which, for a variety of reasons, has not yet happened.

Maybe now it will go forward.  We will all just have to wait and see.

In the meantime we will continue to go in circles on this issue on CT, because there will never, ever, ever be a consensus amongst the membership on what looks "better," "more professional," or is more respectful of our diverse membership.

As you may have noticed, opinions on uniforms are often strongly held and passionately defended.  I have yet to see anyone post something to the effect of "Hey, now that I've seen your argument, I've changed my mind."  But I have seen lots of people offended and ticked off by comments made in the "all USAF" vs. "all corporate" wars.

But all means keep posting.  Maybe someone will change their mind someday.  In the meantime, the rest of us will continue to focus on our missions - what we do -- rather than what we wear.

Ned Lee
Former Member, CAP BoG
Former Member, NUC
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on December 29, 2015, 10:53:56 PM
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on December 27, 2015, 02:31:47 PM
So you are saying that if you are in CAP to "play Air Force," you are not able to do the three missions? That it is mutually exclusive?!!!

Again, some may be in to play Air Force. Others are not. But it is in the organization's best interest not to dismiss those that are working to achieve the goals of the organization no matter what their motivation.

When I was in CAP, my primary motivation was to continue service to support the Air Force since I was involuntarily separated from the Air National Guard (honourably) due to medical reasons.

Secondarily, my interest was in CP.  I had a tumultuous, unsafe childhood and had a huge motivation to provide a "safe place" for young people where they would not be bullied, hazed, etc.

I never "played Air Force on Facebook," but as I said in earlier posts my first and best unit (sigh  :() wore the AF-type uniform only, even though it was with berry boards at first, and BDU's, and wore them correctly, and observed customs and courtesies.  So in a way it felt like my old ANG unit except for not getting paid, no UCMJ, no small arms, no being nearby F-4's/F-16's taking off, and I was an officer (all right, there were other differences, but I don't feel like listing them all here).

Over the years it gutted me to see the Air Force connections thinned out (Colonel Lee, I know you have higher-up connections to those in the Air Force who do support CAP, but I'm talking way down the food chain) - no more LO's, no more LNCO's, much more base access restrictions (in my experience), the silly, apocryphal "CAP Major tries to make Airman Snuffy salute and chews him out when he doesn't" stories, and, lastly, the uniform issues.

Since I cannot be in CAP, I have thought of getting re-involved with the AFA (after all, they did give me a free year's membership back in 1995 for the local chapter naming me CAP Senior Member of the Year), but outside of the excellent magazine, it's just not the same...plus, AFA encourages its members to join CAP (or at least used to).
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: TarRiverRat on December 30, 2015, 02:15:46 AM
I for one would not have a problem if we went to ABUs or any AF authorized uniform if all of CAP members could wear it.  I just have a problem when it discriminates against a group of members just because they are unable to meet the weight standards. I plan to continue to wear the uniform that I am allowed and do the best job for CAP that I can.  It would just be nice if we could all wear the same thing.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: TheSkyHornet on December 30, 2015, 06:39:50 PM
Quote from: TarRiverRat on December 30, 2015, 02:15:46 AM
I for one would not have a problem if we went to ABUs or any AF authorized uniform if all of CAP members could wear it.  I just have a problem when it discriminates against a group of members just because they are unable to meet the weight standards. I plan to continue to wear the uniform that I am allowed and do the best job for CAP that I can.  It would just be nice if we could all wear the same thing.

It's a military uniform. It's not that it reflects our ability to perform in CAP; it's the fact that the public's perception of someone seen in a military-esque outfit might not look fit to serve in the military. Most people know nothing of CAP, or USAF Aux, or any of that. They see a "soldier" and think "Gosh, he's fat...old...walking with a cane... etc." It doesn't reflect on CAP. It reflects on the DoD and subsequent branches.

It's a very subjective topic and will never have a clear answer aside from what we're dictated as policy. But the varying opinions will always exist.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Fixedwing on January 03, 2016, 04:19:43 PM

Issue One:  Speaking of dead horses: why are we wearing ANY form of cammies?  We do search and rescue in cammies, what?  Are we hiding from someone?  Instead of buying more uniforms (and enriching Vanguard) why not go with the blue field uniform?  It is CAP distinctive, most people already have one and it is well suited for the purpose.  The last exercise I went on half the people showed up in the blue field uniform anyway.  I cannot think of a single good reason to make people spend good money on another uniform, esp one that makes no sense.  Oh, and new boots too.

No horse is so dead that it can't take another whack

Issue Two: If CAP is "wear testing ABUs, a) why bother they've been worn by the AF for years already, b) "wear test" them with people like GTMs, not a couple of guys from headquarters.  What are  they testing for?  Reinforced seats?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: PHall on January 03, 2016, 04:40:44 PM
Quote from: Fixedwing on January 03, 2016, 04:19:43 PM

Issue One:  Speaking of dead horses: why are we wearing ANY form of cammies?  We do search and rescue in cammies, what?  Are we hiding from someone?  Instead of buying more uniforms (and enriching Vanguard) why not go with the blue field uniform?  It is CAP distinctive, most people already have one and it is well suited for the purpose.  The last exercise I went on half the people showed up in the blue field uniform anyway.  I cannot think of a single good reason to make people spend good money on another uniform, esp one that makes no sense.  Oh, and new boots too.

No horse is so dead that it can't take another whack

Issue Two: If CAP is "wear testing ABUs, a) why bother they've been worn by the AF for years already, b) "wear test" them with people like GTMs, not a couple of guys from headquarters.  What are  they testing for?  Reinforced seats?

They were testing stuff like the different color name/branch tapes and such to make sure it's distinctive enough. As per the regs.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on January 03, 2016, 04:47:01 PM
Quote from: Fixedwing on January 03, 2016, 04:19:43 PM

Issue One:  Speaking of dead horses: why are we wearing ANY form of cammies?  We do search and rescue in cammies, what?  Are we hiding from someone?  Instead of buying more uniforms (and enriching Vanguard) why not go with the blue field uniform?  It is CAP distinctive, most people already have one and it is well suited for the purpose.


Last time I checked, that isn't true. It is about 30-70 (BBDU v. BDU) that I've seen, and that's being generous. We wear the camoflage BDU because it was authorized as our uniform in the early 90s, as the Air Force transitioned to them in the early to mid 80s and stopped wearing and issuing the OG-107 pickle suits. We also have hi-visibility packs and vests to wear in the woods.

Quote

The last exercise I went on half the people showed up in the blue field uniform anyway.


Where was this? Most of the missions I've been on, most of the people wore the polo combo, and they were all either pilots or in the IC. The ground teams all wore BDUs. But, in any given geographical area, your mileage may vary.

Quote

I cannot think of a single good reason to make people spend good money on another uniform, esp one that makes no sense.  Oh, and new boots too.


Agreed. For the most part. But, if it IS approved, we would most likely retain the black boots that ALL MEMBERS HAVE ALREADY.

Quote

No horse is so dead that it can't take another whack


Debatable.

Quote

Issue Two: If CAP is "wear testing ABUs, a) why bother they've been worn by the AF for years already, b) "wear test" them with people like GTMs, not a couple of guys from headquarters.  What are  they testing for?  Reinforced seats?


If you read up, you can see that they were looking for things like suitability, distinctiveness from the AF ABU (patches, boots, etc.), durability, and so on. I agree that they should have given them to GTs for field testing, but since we can't depend on a mission every day, it's kind of a moot point. We wear the uniforms once a week, and on weekend activities, which require either the blues, BDUs or even civilian attire. Perhaps they should have given them to people at an encampment to wear for the week, then taken them back at the conclusion of the activity. Just my opinion. Again, YMMV.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Meridius on January 09, 2016, 01:32:53 PM
I am prior service military and I wore the BDU for 10 years.  I am interested in the ABU to look more like our Air Force brethren.  I am concerned that the ABU will be phased out in favor of the multi-cam and that all DoD will wear.  I will, follow the guidelines from headquarters to the letter, like any good soldier, sailor, or airman would/should do.

Patches:  The BDUs we wear today has way too many patches.  Patches above the pocket, on each pocket, on each sleeve.  The Air Force does not allow for patches on the pockets or sleeves, only name tape, rank, and occupational badges and wings.  Fine.  I get it and makes the uniform look sterile.  However, we are not a standing military armed force.  We are, among other things, an Emergency Services oriented organization.  With that said, we provide volunteer services to the Air Force, DoD, State, and local governments upon approval of Wing with assigned mission numbers. 

My point is:  our customers need to know who we are especially when we interact at the local level.  We need to display both our military heritage as well as our volunteer skills such as SAR, Disaster Assistance, etc.  For this sake, one or two mission oriented patches on the pockets should be allowed with strict guidelines to keep us from looking like clowns in the Air Force uniform.  Therefore, our ES operations and uniforms should  be distinct for that purpose.   For example, a retooled emergency services patch (i.e. no white background; subdue it to blue, grean, tan, whatever) and/or the applicable SAR patch from NESA, Hawk, etc, como, safety, however, absolutely no sleeve and the myriad other examples of patches that I have seen (army combat patch included).

If we beat the proverbial "dead horse," this is the argument that should be focused.  It is a given we are changing uniforms at some point in the future. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: sarmed1 on January 09, 2016, 09:36:55 PM
Quote from: Meridius on January 09, 2016, 01:32:53 PM
... We need to display both our military heritage as well as our volunteer skills such as SAR, Disaster Assistance, etc.  For this sake, one or two mission oriented patches on the pockets should be allowed with strict guidelines to keep us from looking like clowns in the Air Force uniform.  Therefore, our ES operations and uniforms should  be distinct for that purpose. ....

As a professional Emergency Services guy....  Its the guys with all of the patches that we worry about (abstractly speaking).  If you need extra patches to show to the folks running the show to prove that you know what you are doing there is an issue.  Usually it means that there wasnt any kind of pre-incident communication.  To me that means that you are showing up as an afterthought, and they wernt expecting you to bring anything to the table other than a warm body anyway.  If the right kind of coordination was done ahead of time, they know what you can and cant do and there is no "need to prove it" when you get there.

I am kind of partial to the idea of 2 separate uniforms.  DoD style for day to day military-esque things (ie cadet programs) and the BBDU for ES operations. Yes its an extra expense but if ES is what you want to do consider it part of your "gear".  There is less heartache over what goes with the BBDU as far as outerwear, boots, hats, field equipment or grooming standards.  Everyone looks the same when out and about providing a service to the customer.  There is (theoretically) less of a chance of "airsoft seal team" in appearance when it comes to field gear.  (seriously who wants to mix misc green/tan/brown camo and blue)

just a thought
MK

Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: TheSkyHornet on January 11, 2016, 07:10:23 PM
Quote from: sarmed1 on January 09, 2016, 09:36:55 PM
Quote from: Meridius on January 09, 2016, 01:32:53 PM
... We need to display both our military heritage as well as our volunteer skills such as SAR, Disaster Assistance, etc.  For this sake, one or two mission oriented patches on the pockets should be allowed with strict guidelines to keep us from looking like clowns in the Air Force uniform.  Therefore, our ES operations and uniforms should  be distinct for that purpose. ....

As a professional Emergency Services guy....  Its the guys with all of the patches that we worry about (abstractly speaking).  If you need extra patches to show to the folks running the show to prove that you know what you are doing there is an issue.  Usually it means that there wasnt any kind of pre-incident communication.  To me that means that you are showing up as an afterthought, and they wernt expecting you to bring anything to the table other than a warm body anyway.  If the right kind of coordination was done ahead of time, they know what you can and cant do and there is no "need to prove it" when you get there.

I am kind of partial to the idea of 2 separate uniforms.  DoD style for day to day military-esque things (ie cadet programs) and the BBDU for ES operations. Yes its an extra expense but if ES is what you want to do consider it part of your "gear".  There is less heartache over what goes with the BBDU as far as outerwear, boots, hats, field equipment or grooming standards.  Everyone looks the same when out and about providing a service to the customer.  There is (theoretically) less of a chance of "airsoft seal team" in appearance when it comes to field gear.  (seriously who wants to mix misc green/tan/brown camo and blue)

just a thought
MK

I made that point on here a while ago and got chewed out heavy for it.

I'm not a fan of wearing your resume all over your uniform. It's one thing to have a ribbon rack, unit insignia, and grade, but to have this flood of patches everywhere is overkill. I think it makes the uniform look like a Boy Scouts funfest and gives off the impression that the more patches you have, the better CAP member you are. Which just isn't true. Many qualifications doesn't mean you perform any of them superb.

Your team leaders know your skills because you're on their team. You wouldn't be on the ground team without the qualification. Wearing it on your sleeve doesn't symbolize anything. Sure, we could break this down into every single patch/badge one wears from wings to ES to SUPTFC. I see way too may cadets especially trying to rack build, and uniform build with patches, and they don't retain information nor do they really care once they're qualified. I compare it to getting a Ranger tab and serving on a medical ward.

Personally, though, I agree with having a ground team uniform separate from your standard BDUs. As far as the patches go, the public, law enforcement, whomever, have no idea what those patches mean and they don't really care. They just want to know that whoever is on the team can do the job they're there to do.

We represent the military, whether anyone feels that we're Airmen or not. The public sees a uniform, and they immediately think military. You can spend all day trying to explain to them what CAP is. But they see a camouflage uniform and patches everywhere, and all pretty and colorful, and it starts to look like a camouflage clown suit.

I know this will light some fires and probably throw shack my way. It's not meant to be offensive or demeaning, but I'd like to see a working uniform be used more for working and less for showing off. Let the dress uniform be flashy. Let the working uniform look sharp and get dirty when it needs to. That's its purpose.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: goblin on January 11, 2016, 10:20:56 PM
^this
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: TarRiverRat on January 12, 2016, 02:38:44 AM
Quote from: sarmed1 on January 09, 2016, 09:36:55 PM

I am kind of partial to the idea of 2 separate uniforms.  DoD style for day to day military-esque things (ie cadet programs) and the BBDU for ES operations. Yes its an extra expense but if ES is what you want to do consider it part of your "gear".  There is less heartache over what goes with the BBDU as far as outerwear, boots, hats, field equipment or grooming standards.  Everyone looks the same when out and about providing a service to the customer.  There is (theoretically) less of a chance of "airsoft seal team" in appearance when it comes to field gear.  (seriously who wants to mix misc green/tan/brown camo and blue)

just a thought
MK

I like this idea.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: JeffDG on January 12, 2016, 02:43:11 AM
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on January 11, 2016, 07:10:23 PM
I'm not a fan of wearing your resume all over your uniform. It's one thing to have a ribbon rack, unit insignia, and grade, but to have this flood of patches everywhere is overkill. I think it makes the uniform look like a Boy Scouts funfest and gives off the impression that the more patches you have, the better CAP member you are. Which just isn't true. Many qualifications doesn't mean you perform any of them superb.

Really, your "resume" ES wise is your CAPF 101 card.  That's where your credentials are listed.

You could have been a GBD 10 years ago and never been involved in Ground Ops since, but you can wear your Master GT badge, but your 101 won't show it because you're not current.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on January 12, 2016, 09:46:27 PM
Then comparing a resume with the 101 is null. A resume is a list of what you know, what you do now, and what you did before if it is relevant.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: LSThiker on January 12, 2016, 11:23:15 PM
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on January 11, 2016, 07:10:23 PM
I'm not a fan of wearing your resume all over your uniform. It's one thing to have a ribbon rack, unit insignia, and grade, but to have this flood of patches everywhere is overkill. I think it makes the uniform look like a Boy Scouts funfest and gives off the impression that the more patches you have, the better CAP member you are. Which just isn't true. Many qualifications doesn't mean you perform any of them superb.

True, more patches one has does not mean your are superb or a better CAP member.  That is true for not only CAP but also the military.  Just because a Soldier has 4 skill badges, three tabs, and two pocket badges on his ACUs, does not mean he/she is a better Soldier.  Just means he has more training, of which it does not mean he is excellent in any of those trainings either.


I agree that the number of patches we have on our BDU/BBDUs is a bit much.  I could go for eliminating the vast majority of them.  Keep the badges, sure why not. 

Or at least, redesigning them to be simple, professional, and of the least number of colors.  For example, redesign the ES patch to something similar to the communications patch (but obviously red).  Safety and CISM could be similar to the communications patch as well.  Redesign the cartoonish looking patches (e.g. NBB and model rocketry) and make them look more professional and current.  Make all NCSA patches of the same design (roundel vs shield).  Only have one placement (left breast pocket) for these patches and wearer must choose only 1.  I know, I know, history.  And money.  I get that.  Over all, you get only 3 spots for qualifications (two badges and one breast pocket patch).  As far as mandatory patches:  name tape, CAP tape, command insignia pin.   
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: TarRiverRat on January 13, 2016, 01:10:59 AM
I wish we could use the command insignia pin instead of the bird splat that Vanguard has.  When I got it, it looked awful.  I still have not placed it on my BBDUs as of yet.  Right now I only have my grade, wing patch, name, and Civil Air Patrol tape on my BBDU.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: TheSkyHornet on January 13, 2016, 08:12:31 PM
Quote from: LSThiker on January 12, 2016, 11:23:15 PM
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on January 11, 2016, 07:10:23 PM
I'm not a fan of wearing your resume all over your uniform. It's one thing to have a ribbon rack, unit insignia, and grade, but to have this flood of patches everywhere is overkill. I think it makes the uniform look like a Boy Scouts funfest and gives off the impression that the more patches you have, the better CAP member you are. Which just isn't true. Many qualifications doesn't mean you perform any of them superb.

True, more patches one has does not mean your are superb or a better CAP member.  That is true for not only CAP but also the military.  Just because a Soldier has 4 skill badges, three tabs, and two pocket badges on his ACUs, does not mean he/she is a better Soldier.  Just means he has more training, of which it does not mean he is excellent in any of those trainings either.


I agree that the number of patches we have on our BDU/BBDUs is a bit much.  I could go for eliminating the vast majority of them.  Keep the badges, sure why not. 

Or at least, redesigning them to be simple, professional, and of the least number of colors.  For example, redesign the ES patch to something similar to the communications patch (but obviously red).  Safety and CISM could be similar to the communications patch as well.  Redesign the cartoonish looking patches (e.g. NBB and model rocketry) and make them look more professional and current.  Make all NCSA patches of the same design (roundel vs shield).  Only have one placement (left breast pocket) for these patches and wearer must choose only 1.  I know, I know, history.  And money.  I get that.  Over all, you get only 3 spots for qualifications (two badges and one breast pocket patch).  As far as mandatory patches:  name tape, CAP tape, command insignia pin.

Love it.

I'd like to see patches that blend in better (subdued). I think the utility uniform we have stands out a lot (and that's not a joke on camouflage; it's very colorful)
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: ironputts on February 09, 2016, 01:00:58 PM
How is the wear test going?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on February 09, 2016, 01:36:52 PM
Quote from: ironputts on February 09, 2016, 01:00:58 PM
How is the wear test going?

Probably won't know for a while. The NUC has to take all results, collate the data and present their findings. I'd say at least a year before we know.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Holding Pattern on February 09, 2016, 08:30:06 PM
Quote from: ironputts on February 09, 2016, 01:00:58 PM
How is the wear test going?

Uniforms are being sent for review due to spontaneous combustion noted by wearers when people are discussing uniform regulations around them.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Raikkonen on February 09, 2016, 10:04:23 PM
Quote from: Goblin on December 11, 2015, 06:21:48 PM

Quote from: winterg on December 11, 2015, 06:16:58 PM
We might as well commence the ABU rodeo. We haven't had one here in a while. Lol

I would even happily give up my beret if it meant CAP dropped all patches when switching to ABU. Rank, tapes, & badges only.

Or you could just give it up regardless.

Nobody is happy with the lack of patches. It's on the the ABUs biggest complaints.

No kidding?  That crap got expensive when it came time to get new uniforms.  Rank x 2, Name, USAF, MAJCOM Patch, Wing patch, Squadron Patch, Specialty Badges, Missile if you had it...  I was delighted when they announced the ABU wouldn't have all of that.  Big waste of money for both the Air Force and the individual. 
Title: ABU Wear Test
Post by: goblin on February 09, 2016, 11:48:47 PM
Quote from: Raikkonen on February 09, 2016, 10:04:23 PM
Quote from: Goblin on December 11, 2015, 06:21:48 PM

Quote from: winterg on December 11, 2015, 06:16:58 PM
We might as well commence the ABU rodeo. We haven't had one here in a while. Lol

I would even happily give up my beret if it meant CAP dropped all patches when switching to ABU. Rank, tapes, & badges only.

Or you could just give it up regardless.

Nobody is happy with the lack of patches. It's on the the ABUs biggest complaints.

No kidding?  That crap got expensive when it came time to get new uniforms.  Rank x 2, Name, USAF, MAJCOM Patch, Wing patch, Squadron Patch, Specialty Badges, Missile if you had it...  I was delighted when they announced the ABU wouldn't have all of that.  Big waste of money for both the Air Force and the individual.

At least some of those with unit pride. It was another ABU vs FDU argument that we got to keep our unit patches.

Another version of "us vs. them"
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: PHall on February 10, 2016, 03:48:07 AM
Quote from: Goblin on December 11, 2015, 06:21:48 PM

Quote from: winterg on December 11, 2015, 06:16:58 PM
We might as well commence the ABU rodeo. We haven't had one here in a while. Lol

I would even happily give up my beret if it meant CAP dropped all patches when switching to ABU. Rank, tapes, & badges only.

Or you could just give it up regardless.

Nobody is happy with the lack of patches. It's on the the ABUs biggest complaints.

When the ABU first came out there was much wailing about all of the patches disappearing. The Air Force seems to have adapted. CAP probably will too.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Raikkonen on February 10, 2016, 04:50:16 PM
At least some of those with unit pride. It was another ABU vs FDU argument that we got to keep our unit patches.

Another version of "us vs. them"
[/quote]


I believe you can still display unit pride and not have patches sewn all over your uniform.  The Squadron patch was fine with me but more than likely everyone on your base was in the same MAJCOM and Wing so those patches were unnecessary spending. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: billford1 on February 15, 2016, 01:42:34 AM
I haven't kept up with this thread so I don't know what has developed since an earlier decision was not to go forward with the ABU. Has something changed? Is CAP really going to go forward with the ABU ?   
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: lordmonar on February 15, 2016, 03:27:58 AM
A proposal is on the table. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on February 15, 2016, 12:40:24 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on February 15, 2016, 03:27:58 AM
A proposal is on the table.

Translation: three to five years to make it through approval from all stages.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Storm Chaser on February 15, 2016, 02:18:14 PM

Quote from: Garibaldi on February 15, 2016, 12:40:24 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on February 15, 2016, 03:27:58 AM
A proposal is on the table.

Translation: three to five years to make it through approval from all stages.

And by then the Air Force may be in a different uniform.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: MacGruff on February 15, 2016, 03:07:08 PM
Our Wing Commander came to one of our Group Staff Meetings and stated that one of the changes he expects to see due to the move of CAP to 1st Air Force is that CAP uniforms will be changing to ABUs. The timeline he suggested was "very soon" and that it will not have a long transition period. Supposedly the Air Force folks were asking "why are you in BDUs?"

Whether this came to him from above, or are his own speculations, I do not know.



Let's get more rumors going?!?!?!

>:D >:D >:D
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on February 15, 2016, 03:20:15 PM
Quote from: MacGruff on February 15, 2016, 03:07:08 PM
Our Wing Commander came to one of our Group Staff Meetings and stated that one of the changes he expects to see due to the move of CAP to 1st Air Force is that CAP uniforms will be changing to ABUs. The timeline he suggested was "very soon" and that it will not have a long transition period. Supposedly the Air Force folks were asking "why are you in BDUs?"

Whether this came to him from above, or are his own speculations, I do not know.



Let's get more rumors going?!?!?!

>:D >:D >:D

We also are going with ABU nametapes and grade insignia and sage green boots. AF Airmen WILL have to salute us, and the AF is making sure CAP is recognized by airmen worldwide by giving them recognition training during BMT. This will be done by 2017.

This is all part of the Total Force movement. By 2020, we will be given training in such support roles as in-flight refueling, combat SAR, cross training into MH-53s that the Air Force is retiring, and air-ground coordination with C-130 crews for regular inland SAR. Our ground teams will receive the same training as pararescue.

Total Force FTW!
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: JeffDG on February 15, 2016, 03:28:05 PM
Quote from: MacGruff on February 15, 2016, 03:07:08 PM
Our Wing Commander came to one of our Group Staff Meetings and stated that one of the changes he expects to see due to the move of CAP to 1st Air Force is that CAP uniforms will be changing to ABUs. The timeline he suggested was "very soon" and that it will not have a long transition period. Supposedly the Air Force folks were asking "why are you in BDUs?"

Whether this came to him from above, or are his own speculations, I do not know.



Let's get more rumors going?!?!?!

>:D >:D >:D
I heard the same thing from the Wing Commander's father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Гугл переводчик on February 15, 2016, 03:51:47 PM
Don't forget, our "rangers" will wear the Army Ranger tab as well as authorization for Multicam  >:D
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on February 15, 2016, 04:35:55 PM
Quote from: SamuelRosinsky on February 15, 2016, 03:51:47 PM
Don't forget, our "rangers" will wear the Army Ranger tab as well as authorization for Multicam  >:D

Only if you complete Ranger training and earn the tab. Or complete Hawk Mountain. Either way.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: billford1 on February 16, 2016, 01:27:02 AM
I'm hoping the AF will provide the ABU to Cadets.  I'd buy one for my Cadet but we've had a few Cadets that would be hard pressed to buy their own.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Fubar on February 16, 2016, 01:41:37 AM
Quote from: billford1 on February 16, 2016, 01:27:02 AM
I'm hoping the AF will provide the ABU to Cadets.  I'd buy one for my Cadet but we've had a few Cadets that would be hard pressed to buy there own.

The Air Force has certainly been generous with funding lately (see CEAP), and they do chip in for uniforms that are needed for encampment.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: USACAP on February 17, 2016, 03:52:49 AM
At a time the USAF is on the verge of dumping the ABU in favor of the OCP the Army's wearing ...??
The ABU is certainly the worst and least practical uniform ever fielded by the US military.
Was never intended to be worn in anything resembling a field environment.
Interesting.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: lordmonar on February 17, 2016, 04:07:10 AM
Bull.   On all counts.   But there you go.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: abdsp51 on February 17, 2016, 04:24:33 AM
Quote from: USACAP on February 17, 2016, 03:52:49 AM
At a time the USAF is on the verge of dumping the ABU in favor of the OCP the Army's wearing ...??
The ABU is certainly the worst and least practical uniform ever fielded by the US military.
Was never intended to be worn in anything resembling a field environment.
Interesting.


Cite from a valid source?  I can tell you that is false on all accounts. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: THRAWN on February 17, 2016, 01:59:39 PM
Quote from: USACAP on February 17, 2016, 03:52:49 AM
At a time the USAF is on the verge of dumping the ABU in favor of the OCP the Army's wearing ...??
The ABU is certainly the worst and least practical uniform ever fielded by the US military.
Was never intended to be worn in anything resembling a field environment.
Interesting.

That distinction belongs to the ACU.

And not to sound broken recordish, where are you getting your info from?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on February 17, 2016, 07:22:08 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on February 17, 2016, 04:24:33 AM
Quote from: USACAP on February 17, 2016, 03:52:49 AM
At a time the USAF is on the verge of dumping the ABU in favor of the OCP the Army's wearing ...??
The ABU is certainly the worst and least practical uniform ever fielded by the US military.
Was never intended to be worn in anything resembling a field environment.
Interesting.


Cite from a valid source?  I can tell you that is false on all accounts.

I was going to say. the number of times I've heard "ABU is going away! (Pick One: [Congress|The Chief of Staff|My Air Guard Buddy|The Homeless guy in from of McDonalds]) said so!"
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: LSThiker on February 17, 2016, 07:32:57 PM
I wonder who and when this was added to the ABU wiki page:

QuoteThe Air Force's auxiliary, Civil Air Patrol, has wear-tested the ABU in late 2015, but no adoption date has been announced.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: sardak on February 17, 2016, 08:06:03 PM
QuoteI wonder who and when this was added to the ABU wiki page:

QuoteThe Air Force's auxiliary, Civil Air Patrol, has wear-tested the ABU in late 2015, but no adoption date has been announced.

When is easy, who is more difficult to find, because only an IP address is listed.

On January 22, the ABU entry was changed to read: In March 2016, CAP will start using the ABU's.

On January 29, it was revised to: In March 2016, CAP will start using the ABUs (citation needed).

Later that same day it was revised to: The Air Force's auxiliary, Civil Air Patrol, has wear-tested the ABU in late 2015, but no adoption date has been announced.

Then, same day, a frown was added at the end: The Air Force's auxiliary, Civil Air Patrol, has wear-tested the ABU in late 2015, but no adoption date has been announced. :(

Again, same day, the frown was removed.

Mike
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: kwe1009 on February 17, 2016, 09:52:51 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on February 17, 2016, 04:24:33 AM
Quote from: USACAP on February 17, 2016, 03:52:49 AM
At a time the USAF is on the verge of dumping the ABU in favor of the OCP the Army's wearing ...??
The ABU is certainly the worst and least practical uniform ever fielded by the US military.
Was never intended to be worn in anything resembling a field environment.
Interesting.


Cite from a valid source?  I can tell you that is false on all accounts.

I can agree that the ABU is at least the worst Air Force utility uniform in the last 20-30 years.  The source that I am citing is myself as I have been in for nearly 30 years and the ABU is by far the worst uniform that I have had to wear.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: PHall on February 17, 2016, 10:12:15 PM
Quote from: kwe1009 on February 17, 2016, 09:52:51 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on February 17, 2016, 04:24:33 AM
Quote from: USACAP on February 17, 2016, 03:52:49 AM
At a time the USAF is on the verge of dumping the ABU in favor of the OCP the Army's wearing ...??
The ABU is certainly the worst and least practical uniform ever fielded by the US military.
Was never intended to be worn in anything resembling a field environment.
Interesting.


Cite from a valid source?  I can tell you that is false on all accounts.

I can agree that the ABU is at least the worst Air Force utility uniform in the last 20-30 years.  The source that I am citing is myself as I have been in for nearly 30 years and the ABU is by far the worst uniform that I have had to wear.


The Ripstop ABU's (RABU) aren't that bad. About the same weight as Ripstop BDU's.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: lordmonar on February 17, 2016, 11:17:25 PM
I wore OD's, BDUs and the ABU.....and I prefer the ABUs over the BDUs.

YMMV. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Гугл переводчик on February 18, 2016, 02:24:23 AM
My cadets have started asking me when we will get MultiCam...  :'(
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: kwe1009 on February 18, 2016, 03:17:49 AM
Quote from: SamuelRosinsky on February 18, 2016, 02:24:23 AM
My cadets have started asking me when we will get MultiCam...  :'(

1 March 20XX   >:D
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: almostspaatz on February 18, 2016, 03:30:03 AM
Quote from: kwe1009 on February 18, 2016, 03:17:49 AM
Quote from: SamuelRosinsky on February 18, 2016, 02:24:23 AM
My cadets have started asking me when we will get MultiCam...  :'(

1 March 20XX   >:D

When the second Tuesday of the month falls on the 15th....
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Toth on February 18, 2016, 03:50:38 AM
Still waiting to hear the end of this one, in multiple ways
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: JeffDG on February 18, 2016, 04:06:11 AM
Quote from: kwe1009 on February 18, 2016, 03:17:49 AM
Quote from: SamuelRosinsky on February 18, 2016, 02:24:23 AM
My cadets have started asking me when we will get MultiCam...  :'(

1 March 20XX   >:D
You're short one "X"
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: lordmonar on February 18, 2016, 01:27:48 PM
Quote from: SamuelRosinsky on February 18, 2016, 02:24:23 AM
My cadets have started asking me when we will get MultiCam...  :'(
When they join the Army.  :)
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: kwe1009 on February 18, 2016, 03:02:26 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on February 18, 2016, 04:06:11 AM
Quote from: kwe1009 on February 18, 2016, 03:17:49 AM
Quote from: SamuelRosinsky on February 18, 2016, 02:24:23 AM
My cadets have started asking me when we will get MultiCam...  :'(

1 March 20XX   >:D
You're short one "X"

You are probably right!
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NC Hokie on February 18, 2016, 03:46:37 PM
Quote from: almostspaatz on February 18, 2016, 03:30:03 AM
Quote from: kwe1009 on February 18, 2016, 03:17:49 AM
Quote from: SamuelRosinsky on February 18, 2016, 02:24:23 AM
My cadets have started asking me when we will get MultiCam...  :'(

1 March 20XX   >:D

When the second Tuesday of the month falls on the 15th....

<COUNTS ON FINGERS>

I see what you did there!
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: THRAWN on February 18, 2016, 03:54:52 PM
Quote from: NC Hokie on February 18, 2016, 03:46:37 PM
Quote from: almostspaatz on February 18, 2016, 03:30:03 AM
Quote from: kwe1009 on February 18, 2016, 03:17:49 AM
Quote from: SamuelRosinsky on February 18, 2016, 02:24:23 AM
My cadets have started asking me when we will get MultiCam...  :'(

1 March 20XX   >:D

When the second Tuesday of the month falls on the 15th....

<COUNTS ON FINGERS>

I see what you did there!

Lousy Smarch weather....
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: MacGruff on February 18, 2016, 05:57:24 PM
Quote from: sardak on February 17, 2016, 08:06:03 PM
QuoteI wonder who and when this was added to the ABU wiki page:

QuoteThe Air Force's auxiliary, Civil Air Patrol, has wear-tested the ABU in late 2015, but no adoption date has been announced.

When is easy, who is more difficult to find, because only an IP address is listed.

On January 22, the ABU entry was changed to read: In March 2016, CAP will start using the ABU's.

On January 29, it was revised to: In March 2016, CAP will start using the ABUs (citation needed).

Later that same day it was revised to: The Air Force's auxiliary, Civil Air Patrol, has wear-tested the ABU in late 2015, but no adoption date has been announced.

Then, same day, a frown was added at the end: The Air Force's auxiliary, Civil Air Patrol, has wear-tested the ABU in late 2015, but no adoption date has been announced. :(

Again, same day, the frown was removed.

Mike


Well!  There you go!  You read it on the internet, so it must be true!!!!    >:D >:D

And, on Wiki to boot!. Wow - who can doubt that source of internet information...    ;D
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: West MI-CAP-Ret on February 19, 2016, 10:53:17 PM
I retired from the Air Force back in 2004 so I have no first-hand knowledge about the ABU.  But I've read and other AF members have shared that it's not a comfortable uniform to wear.  As of two years ago, there wasn't a warm weather equivalent.  (Can someone update me if this has changed)  The ABU is a very expensive uniform to wear.  Maintenance folks pushed through an olive green boot because it was impossible to keep the suade boots clean.


Words from an old dinosaur... I love shiny boots.  Every Friday I'd order a pizza, drink my bud-light and shine my boots.  In our squadron's ready room there was one of those floor model shoe-shine machines (Red felt on one side, black on the other) and first thing Monday morning I'd put my boot under the machine's brushes and man I'd get at least a four inch shine.


Bottom line.  I think we should really think long and hard before we start using an expensive uniform, that is hard to maintain.  I also think cadets (and some adults) really couldn't take care of the suade shoes.  But that in itself is not a reason for not getting the ABU.  The ABU is just so darn expensive (also, I really like unit patches to enhance unit pride and build identity.


For the past four years I've ballooned to 25 lbs over the CAP weight standards.  So, I've had to wear the corporate uniform.  I believe we all should transition to the dark blue BDUs.  Really, did we really need to have kids running around the woods like the Michigan Militia?  Just a thought.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on February 19, 2016, 11:24:25 PM
Quote from: DemonOps on February 19, 2016, 10:53:17 PM
Bottom line.  I think we should really think long and hard before we start using an expensive uniform, that is hard to maintain.  I also think cadets (and some adults) really couldn't take care of the suade shoes.  But that in itself is not a reason for not getting the ABU.  The ABU is just so darn expensive (also, I really like unit patches to enhance unit pride and build identity.

A generalization.

I have two sets of ABUs hanging in my closet. It cost me less than $50 for both sets combined.  I can obtain BDUs for a similar price, but if they're used, generally they're not in nearly as good shape due to the fact that they're probably 10+ years old now.

Also, suede boots require next to no care.

How can you say "people can't take care of suite shoes" right after a paragraph detailing how much care you had to put into black leather boots with a straight face.

I have three pairs of the tan ACU combat boots that I wore while I was in the Army Cadets. In seven years, all I ever did was a quick brush with a stiff bristle brush. Anybody who knows me understands that I'm a stickler for personal appearance in uniform.

Bottom line: the maintenance aspects of that uniform are far simpler than BDUs.


Quote
I believe we all should transition to the dark blue BDUs.  Really, did we really need to have kids running around the woods like the Michigan Militia?  Just a thought.

I believe we are the Air Force's official auxiliary. Why wouldn't we wear our parent service's uniform? With all the orange jim-jam we're expected to wear in the field, I suspect nobody in their right mind would think we were "the militia."

With all the touting of "Total Force," ask yourself this:  Would anybody think it a good idea to say to the Air Force Reserve or Air National Guard "hey, you guys, wear something different than the Air Force uniform?"  No.

Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: PHall on February 20, 2016, 12:54:55 AM
Quote from: DemonOps on February 19, 2016, 10:53:17 PM
I retired from the Air Force back in 2004 so I have no first-hand knowledge about the ABU.  But I've read and other AF members have shared that it's not a comfortable uniform to wear.  As of two years ago, there wasn't a warm weather equivalent.  (Can someone update me if this has changed)  The ABU is a very expensive uniform to wear.  Maintenance folks pushed through an olive green boot because it was impossible to keep the suade boots clean.


Words from an old dinosaur... I love shiny boots.  Every Friday I'd order a pizza, drink my bud-light and shine my boots.  In our squadron's ready room there was one of those floor model shoe-shine machines (Red felt on one side, black on the other) and first thing Monday morning I'd put my boot under the machine's brushes and man I'd get at least a four inch shine.


Bottom line.  I think we should really think long and hard before we start using an expensive uniform, that is hard to maintain.  I also think cadets (and some adults) really couldn't take care of the suade shoes.  But that in itself is not a reason for not getting the ABU.  The ABU is just so darn expensive (also, I really like unit patches to enhance unit pride and build identity.


For the past four years I've ballooned to 25 lbs over the CAP weight standards.  So, I've had to wear the corporate uniform.  I believe we all should transition to the dark blue BDUs.  Really, did we really need to have kids running around the woods like the Michigan Militia?  Just a thought.

Ripstop ABU's became available in the past couple of years. They wear the same as Ripstop BDU's.
I don't miss the patches. I don't miss shining boots. And in Clothing Sales, the ABU costs about the same as the BDU did. Adjusted for inflation of course.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: lordmonar on February 20, 2016, 01:04:01 AM
Quote from: PHall on February 20, 2016, 12:54:55 AM
Ripstop ABU's became available in the past couple of years. They wear the same as Ripstop BDU's.
I don't miss the patches. I don't miss shining boots. And in Clothing Sales, the ABU costs about the same as the BDU did. Adjusted for inflation of course.
I loved the wash and wear.  I loved the idea that it was a work uniform, and not a green and black inspection uniform.  The first version of the uniform was very hot.  It had four layers of fabric on the front when you considered the pocket, the front of the shirt, and then two layers for the map pocket.   They have removed them from follow on uniforms.

+1 about the cost.  When you factor in the savings of no patches it covers the slight cost increase.

As for availability.....Like Nin said.   They are hitting the surplus stores.  The Airman's Attic are full of them (they keep trying to give them to us!).  BDUs are getting scares, getting expensive and getting worn out.

It's time.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: USACAP on February 20, 2016, 11:53:59 PM
LOL.
Yeah, the ACU was pretty bad, but not nearly as bad as the ABU ...
ABU is preposterously poor in all ways. It is in NO way a "battle uniform."
The USAF bubbas downrange I see outside the wire are all wearing Army uniforms - ACU in the ITO, Multicam/OCP in ATO.
Word inside the Beltway, despite this:
http://m.military.com/daily-news/2014/09/03/air-force-says-no-to-new-camouflage.html (http://m.military.com/daily-news/2014/09/03/air-force-says-no-to-new-camouflage.html)
Is that the USAF is going to pick up OCP.

Quote from: THRAWN on February 17, 2016, 01:59:39 PM
Quote from: USACAP on February 17, 2016, 03:52:49 AM
At a time the USAF is on the verge of dumping the ABU in favor of the OCP the Army's wearing ...??
The ABU is certainly the worst and least practical uniform ever fielded by the US military.
Was never intended to be worn in anything resembling a field environment.
Interesting.
That distinction belongs to the ACU.
And not to sound broken recordish, where are you getting your info from?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Laplace on February 27, 2016, 12:43:40 PM
I'm here in Washington DC at the Winter Command Council meeting.  ABUs discussion was on the agenda yesterday, with a Command Council vote set for today. 

Proposals are the adoption of the ABU with dark blue tapes/silver lettering and black boots.  Along with this would be the phase out of the blue BDU corporate uniform and the adoption of the woodland BDU uniform as a corporate uniform able to be worn by all.

This discussion also included a continuing/renewed effort to get us mail order access to AAFES.

There was talk of doing away totally with the current ultramarine blue tapes and going with dark blue on all the field uniforms.  This would entail CAP buying out Vanguard's supply of ultramarine tape.

Command Council will vote today by ballot on these 3 separate items.  This vote is only to narrow down what CAP proposes to the Air Force. 

Interesting........
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Al Sayre on February 27, 2016, 02:26:47 PM
Quote from: USACAP on February 20, 2016, 11:53:59 PM
LOL.
Yeah, the ACU was pretty bad, but not nearly as bad as the ABU ...
ABU is preposterously poor in all ways. It is in NO way a "battle uniform."
The USAF bubbas downrange I see outside the wire are all wearing Army uniforms - ACU in the ITO, Multicam/OCP in ATO.
Word inside the Beltway, despite this:
http://m.military.com/daily-news/2014/09/03/air-force-says-no-to-new-camouflage.html (http://m.military.com/daily-news/2014/09/03/air-force-says-no-to-new-camouflage.html)
Is that the USAF is going to pick up OCP.

Quote from: THRAWN on February 17, 2016, 01:59:39 PM
Quote from: USACAP on February 17, 2016, 03:52:49 AM
At a time the USAF is on the verge of dumping the ABU in favor of the OCP the Army's wearing ...??
The ABU is certainly the worst and least practical uniform ever fielded by the US military.
Was never intended to be worn in anything resembling a field environment.
Interesting.
That distinction belongs to the ACU.
And not to sound broken recordish, where are you getting your info from?

Why go out and procure a new uniform when you can authorize existing ones from other services when needed with a couple of pen strokes from the appropriate authorities? ...
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: wacapgh on February 27, 2016, 03:04:37 PM
Quote from: Laplace on February 27, 2016, 12:43:40 PM
I'm here in Washington DC at the Winter Command Council meeting.  ABUs discussion was on the agenda yesterday, with a Command Council vote set for today. 

Proposals are the adoption of the ABU with dark blue tapes/silver lettering and black boots.  Along with this would be the phase out of the blue BDU corporate uniform and the adoption of the woodland BDU uniform as a corporate uniform able to be worn by all.

This discussion also included a continuing/renewed effort to get us mail order access to AAFES.

There was talk of doing away totally with the current ultramarine blue tapes and going with dark blue on all the field uniforms.  This would entail CAP buying out Vanguard's supply of ultramarine tape.

Command Council will vote today by ballot on these 3 separate items.  This vote is only to narrow down what CAP proposes to the Air Force. 

Interesting........

Hmm. I would have gone the other direction - Phase out the Woodland camo and allow the blue for everyone (including Cadets). We'd still have a more "civilian" looking alternative when needed, and not have mixed camouflage patterns.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Laplace on February 27, 2016, 03:14:36 PM
Quote from: wacapgh on February 27, 2016, 03:04:37 PM
Quote from: Laplace on February 27, 2016, 12:43:40 PM
I'm here in Washington DC at the Winter Command Council meeting.  ABUs discussion was on the agenda yesterday, with a Command Council vote set for today. 

Proposals are the adoption of the ABU with dark blue tapes/silver lettering and black boots.  Along with this would be the phase out of the blue BDU corporate uniform and the adoption of the woodland BDU uniform as a corporate uniform able to be worn by all.




Hmm. I would have gone the other direction - Phase out the Woodland camo and allow the blue for everyone (including Cadets). We'd still have a more "civilian" looking alternative when needed, and not have mixed camouflage patterns.

Someone asked this question, and one of the main reasons to not phase out the Woodland BDUs is that would obligate CAP to buy the $300,000 of BDUs that Vanguard has in stock. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: MacGruff on February 27, 2016, 04:08:27 PM
Quote from: Laplace on February 27, 2016, 03:14:36 PM
Quote from: wacapgh on February 27, 2016, 03:04:37 PM
Quote from: Laplace on February 27, 2016, 12:43:40 PM
I'm here in Washington DC at the Winter Command Council meeting.  ABUs discussion was on the agenda yesterday, with a Command Council vote set for today. 

Proposals are the adoption of the ABU with dark blue tapes/silver lettering and black boots.  Along with this would be the phase out of the blue BDU corporate uniform and the adoption of the woodland BDU uniform as a corporate uniform able to be worn by all.




Hmm. I would have gone the other direction - Phase out the Woodland camo and allow the blue for everyone (including Cadets). We'd still have a more "civilian" looking alternative when needed, and not have mixed camouflage patterns.

Someone asked this question, and one of the main reasons to not phase out the Woodland BDUs is that would obligate CAP to buy the $300,000 of BDUs that Vanguard has in stock.


Wow, that makes so little sense!!!

Take out the Woodland BDUs that the cadets and some SMs wear and make the other SMs start wearing it because someone has inventory? Why keep the two different styles? I thought we were trying to get away from the woodland BDUs? And then, what happens if/when Vanguard runs out of stock? Will they then buy more due to the "demand"???



Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Storm Chaser on February 27, 2016, 04:25:17 PM
BDU as a corporate uniform? That definitely makes no sense. The blue corporate field uniform should've been the one adopted for all, including cadets.

I don't see much use in adopting the ABU, especially since it's only a matter of time before the Air Force phases it out in favor of a DoD unified field uniform. Even if the purpose is to be closer to our parent service, the black boots will distinctively set us apart. While some may prefer the black boots to the suede alternatives, there is a reason none of the services, except for the Navy and Coast Guard, are wearing them with their camouflage uniforms.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: PHall on February 27, 2016, 06:12:23 PM
Quote from: Laplace on February 27, 2016, 03:14:36 PM
Quote from: wacapgh on February 27, 2016, 03:04:37 PM
Quote from: Laplace on February 27, 2016, 12:43:40 PM
I'm here in Washington DC at the Winter Command Council meeting.  ABUs discussion was on the agenda yesterday, with a Command Council vote set for today. 

Proposals are the adoption of the ABU with dark blue tapes/silver lettering and black boots.  Along with this would be the phase out of the blue BDU corporate uniform and the adoption of the woodland BDU uniform as a corporate uniform able to be worn by all.





Hmm. I would have gone the other direction - Phase out the Woodland camo and allow the blue for everyone (including Cadets). We'd still have a more "civilian" looking alternative when needed, and not have mixed camouflage patterns.

Someone asked this question, and one of the main reasons to not phase out the Woodland BDUs is that would obligate CAP to buy the $300,000 of BDUs that Vanguard has in stock.

It would be no problem for Vanguard to sell those Woodland BDU's. Paintballers and Hunters come to mind as customers.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on February 27, 2016, 06:34:06 PM
Quote from: PHall on February 27, 2016, 06:12:23 PM
It would be no problem for Vanguard to sell those Woodland BDU's. Paintballers and Hunters come to mind as customers.

$300,000 worth of BDUs?

thats (rough guesstimate back of the envelope) 5,000 sets of BDUs (5000 pants, 5000 shirts)

that seems... off.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Spaceman3750 on February 27, 2016, 06:47:02 PM
Quote from: NIN on February 27, 2016, 06:34:06 PM
Quote from: PHall on February 27, 2016, 06:12:23 PM
It would be no problem for Vanguard to sell those Woodland BDU's. Paintballers and Hunters come to mind as customers.

$300,000 worth of BDUs?

thats (rough guesstimate back of the envelope) 5,000 sets of BDUs (5000 pants, 5000 shirts)

that seems... off.

Additionally, the Vanguard page for BDUs states that they're used by CAP and Young Marines, so why are we responsible for buying out the entire supply?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Spam on February 27, 2016, 06:49:00 PM
Plus, woodland camo BDUs are in fact being used by DoD, as covered here in other threads. There's always a market for them.

V/R
Spam

Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Jester on February 27, 2016, 07:05:00 PM
ABUs and black boots may be the most atrocious thing I've ever heard.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Spaceman3750 on February 27, 2016, 07:18:21 PM
Any word on how the vote went (not sure when it is slated to happen)?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Laplace on February 27, 2016, 07:25:07 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on February 27, 2016, 07:18:21 PM
Any word on how the vote went (not sure when it is slated to happen)?

Just happened!   61 in favor of ABU and switch to navy/silver tapes.   Blue BDUs were voted by majority as corporate uniform, NOT the Woodland BDU.

Next step is submission to Air Force.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Spaceman3750 on February 27, 2016, 07:27:18 PM
Quote from: Laplace on February 27, 2016, 07:25:07 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on February 27, 2016, 07:18:21 PM
Any word on how the vote went (not sure when it is slated to happen)?

Just happened!   61 in favor of ABU and switch to navy/silver tapes.   Blue BDUs were voted by majority as corporate uniform, NOT the Woodland BDU.

Next step is submission to Air Force.

This sounds like a perfectly reasonable compromise and one that I'm happy with. Hooray for status quo >:D. Black boots with ABUs will look weird but I understand the cost implications for members who don't have gobs of money to spend on boots.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: PHall on February 27, 2016, 07:35:39 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on February 27, 2016, 07:27:18 PM
Quote from: Laplace on February 27, 2016, 07:25:07 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on February 27, 2016, 07:18:21 PM
Any word on how the vote went (not sure when it is slated to happen)?

Just happened!   61 in favor of ABU and switch to navy/silver tapes.   Blue BDUs were voted by majority as corporate uniform, NOT the Woodland BDU.

Next step is submission to Air Force.

This sounds like a perfectly reasonable compromise and one that I'm happy with. Hooray for status quo >:D. Black boots with ABUs will look weird but I understand the cost implications for members who don't have gobs of money to spend on boots.

Black boots will help in making us look different from the Air Force. Plus black boots are available just about everywhere.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Spaceman3750 on February 27, 2016, 07:37:06 PM
Quote from: PHall on February 27, 2016, 07:35:39 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on February 27, 2016, 07:27:18 PM
Quote from: Laplace on February 27, 2016, 07:25:07 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on February 27, 2016, 07:18:21 PM
Any word on how the vote went (not sure when it is slated to happen)?

Just happened!   61 in favor of ABU and switch to navy/silver tapes.   Blue BDUs were voted by majority as corporate uniform, NOT the Woodland BDU.

Next step is submission to Air Force.

This sounds like a perfectly reasonable compromise and one that I'm happy with. Hooray for status quo >:D. Black boots with ABUs will look weird but I understand the cost implications for members who don't have gobs of money to spend on boots.

Black boots will help in making us look different from the Air Force. Plus black boots are available just about everywhere.

Yup, no disagreement here.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: RiverAux on February 27, 2016, 08:08:36 PM
Quote from: Laplace on February 27, 2016, 12:43:40 PM
Proposals are the adoption of the ABU with dark blue tapes/silver lettering and black boots.  Along with this would be the phase out of the blue BDU corporate uniform and the adoption of the woodland BDU uniform as a corporate uniform able to be worn by all.


Somewhere in the depths of CAPTalk is a thread I started suggesting that the Woodland BDU could now be used as our corporate uniform.   

However, I would agree with the later comments here that switching over people currently with BBDUs into camo doesn't make a lot of sense.  I could see putting everyone in camo though. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: wings15 on February 27, 2016, 08:58:43 PM
COPIED FROM MICHIGAN WING FACEBOOK:

The Civil Air Patrol Command Council just voted to transition to the ABUs and to keep the current dark blue BDUs for the CAP Corporate uniform. The name tapes and rank will also change to dark blue with silver thread *** The ABUs/name tape change still need to be approved by the Air Force, do NOT go out and buy the ABUs***

The ABUs are not approved for wear yet, CAP only voted to move forward to try and get the Air Force to approve this uniform for us.

PICTURE OF ABU'S:
https://www.facebook.com/MIWGCAP/photos/a.10151055245118845.439978.9548473844/10153534448528845/?type=3&theater (https://www.facebook.com/MIWGCAP/photos/a.10151055245118845.439978.9548473844/10153534448528845/?type=3&theater)
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: MedCadet on February 27, 2016, 09:34:00 PM
Can anyone provide any insight on the transition period length, and the approximate waiting period for USAF approval?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on February 27, 2016, 09:40:26 PM
Quote from: MedCadet on February 27, 2016, 09:34:00 PM
Can anyone provide any insight on the transition period length, and the approximate waiting period for USAF approval?

No.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on February 27, 2016, 09:42:53 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on February 27, 2016, 07:27:18 PM

This sounds like a perfectly reasonable compromise and one that I'm happy with. Hooray for status quo >:D. Black boots with ABUs will look weird but I understand the cost implications for members who don't have gobs of money to spend on boots.

I've been eyeball shopping for ABU boots (you know, just in case) and the cheapest "name" ABU boots I've been able to find were Bellevilles for about $130.

(I'm sure you'd be able to find some no-name brand knock offs shipped by the containerload from China for less, but I was looking for boots that would last me more than a year or two)

Daggone ABU boots are *expensive*
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: THRAWN on February 27, 2016, 09:43:16 PM
Quote from: wings15 on February 27, 2016, 08:58:43 PM
COPIED FROM MICHIGAN WING FACEBOOK:

The Civil Air Patrol Command Council just voted to transition to the ABUs and to keep the current dark blue BDUs for the CAP Corporate uniform. The name tapes and rank will also change to dark blue with silver thread *** The ABUs/name tape change still need to be approved by the Air Force, do NOT go out and buy the ABUs***

The ABUs are not approved for wear yet, CAP only voted to move forward to try and get the Air Force to approve this uniform for us.

PICTURE OF ABU'S:
https://www.facebook.com/MIWGCAP/photos/a.10151055245118845.439978.9548473844/10153534448528845/?type=3&theater (https://www.facebook.com/MIWGCAP/photos/a.10151055245118845.439978.9548473844/10153534448528845/?type=3&theater)

And now all hell breaks loose....but but but I SAW IT ON FACETHING!....who ever decided to release this, on Facething, should be relieved. Cadets and the pro-ABU elements are going to stop reading after the second sentence.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: THRAWN on February 27, 2016, 09:44:20 PM
The black boots look just fine, are functional and won't bankrupt the membership.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Jester on February 27, 2016, 09:54:14 PM
The issue sage boot is under $100.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: THRAWN on February 27, 2016, 10:02:10 PM
Quote from: Jester on February 27, 2016, 09:54:14 PM
The issue sage boot is under $100.

Jungle boots are under $25. Most members have black boots already. Why add an expense on top of an expense?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: abdsp51 on February 27, 2016, 10:03:15 PM
Quote from: Jester on February 27, 2016, 09:54:14 PM
The issue sage boot is under $100.

You are aware that's due to the high quantities and govt rate they are procured at right?  Those boots actually retail above $100.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: ProdigalJim on February 27, 2016, 10:20:44 PM
The phase-in period will probably help ease the cost burden for everyone once ABUs officially happen.

And ABUs are beginning to be available in surplus, eBay and other sources so I don't think it's going to be the apocalypse that's being predicted.

Honestly, I don't know why we all go so ballistic about how much uniforms cost. Boy Scout uniforms, for example, cost $49.99 for the shirt and another $49.99 for the pants...throw in a neckerchief and a hat and a handbook, and you're up to $120 or so. My kids when they were in high school had to pay fees for their athletic uniforms. Yes it's an expense, but CAP is hardly unusual in requiring people to pay for uniforms.



Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: THRAWN on February 27, 2016, 10:26:30 PM
Quote from: ProdigalJim on February 27, 2016, 10:20:44 PM
The phase-in period will probably help ease the cost burden for everyone once ABUs officially happen.

And ABUs are beginning to be available in surplus, eBay and other sources so I don't think it's going to be the apocalypse that's being predicted.

Honestly, I don't know why we all go so ballistic about how much uniforms cost. Boy Scout uniforms, for example, cost $49.99 for the shirt and another $49.99 for the pants...throw in a neckerchief and a hat and a handbook, and you're up to $120 or so. My kids when they were in high school had to pay fees for their athletic uniforms. Yes it's an expense, but CAP is hardly unusual in requiring people to pay for uniforms.

Apples and hand grenades....sure they're both round....that's about $100 for a complete uni for the Scouts. Less, if you can find surplus (by way of example, I got me and my son complete uniforms for under $75 for both). CAP wants you to have blues and BDUs and multiple sets of each....
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Stonewall on February 27, 2016, 10:34:44 PM
How many CAP senior members are in the AF/ANG/AFRES who already have several sage boots that will have to buy and maintain black boots now?

Probably not enough to make an impact but just from my experience, I have been issued at least 10 pair of sage boots in the past 6 years and bought 3 or 4 pair (I don't like the issued ones).

I think the black boots just look silly. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on February 27, 2016, 10:35:50 PM
Quote from: Stonewall on February 27, 2016, 10:34:44 PM
How many CAP senior members are in the AF/ANG/AFRES who already have several sage boots that will have to buy and maintain black boots now?


None. They have black boots for the B/BDUs.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: THRAWN on February 27, 2016, 10:39:39 PM
Quote from: Stonewall on February 27, 2016, 10:34:44 PM
How many CAP senior members are in the AF/ANG/AFRES who already have several sage boots that will have to buy and maintain black boots now?

Probably not enough to make an impact but just from my experience, I have been issued at least 10 pair of sage boots in the past 6 years and bought 3 or 4 pair (I don't like the issued ones).

I think the black boots just look silly.

Sillier than the bright blue on camoflague?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Jester on February 27, 2016, 11:15:17 PM

Quote from: THRAWN on February 27, 2016, 10:02:10 PM
Quote from: Jester on February 27, 2016, 09:54:14 PM
The issue sage boot is under $100.

Jungle boots are under $25. Most members have black boots already. Why add an expense on top of an expense?

I wouldn't use knock-off cheap boots as a justification for anything.

Quote from: abdsp51 on February 27, 2016, 10:03:15 PM
Quote from: Jester on February 27, 2016, 09:54:14 PM
The issue sage boot is under $100.

You are aware that's due to the high quantities and govt rate they are procured at right?  Those boots actually retail above $100.

Walk into MCS, find the boots on the wall, buy them. I'm not talking about the ones in supply.

Black boots look like garbage with ABUs. I don't care about shines. They went to suede to shift focus on things that matter.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: goblin on February 27, 2016, 11:31:46 PM
I don't think that's why we went to suede.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Chappie on February 27, 2016, 11:31:54 PM
Here is what was posted on the NCWG Facebook Group: 
The CAP Command Council has voted to endorse 3 uniform related proposals that were brought to the council by Maj Gen Vazquez, CAP's National Commander.

NOTE - the proposals still require AF APRROVAL which is pending.

Secondly, even once approved, there will be a structured transition process.

The proposals are:

1. Make the AF ABU uniform with tan T-Shirt, tan belt and Black Belt as the CAP AF style utility uniform.

2. Transition the name tapes and associated insignia for the utility uniforms (AF and Corporate) from ultramarine blue w/white thread to dark/navy blue with silver thread.

3. Retain Blue BDU style uniform as the CAP corporate utility uniform and phase out the Woodland style BDU utility uniform on a to be announced transition schedule.

NOTE - the proposals still require AF APRROVAL which is pending. Please do not purchase or where any uniform items that are not CURRENTLY authorized by CAPM 39-1.

There is still no guarantee that the AF will approve these proposals. More to follow. The picture shows a representation of the configuration that is being proposed for the ABU style uniform.


The picture of Col LeClair wearing the test uniform included black boots.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: abdsp51 on February 27, 2016, 11:40:57 PM
Adopt ABU. Keep the black shirt, belt and boots to provide distinctness. 

The sand tshirts are hideous...
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on February 28, 2016, 01:38:09 AM
Quote from: ProdigalJim on February 27, 2016, 10:20:44 PM
The phase-in period will probably help ease the cost burden for everyone once ABUs officially happen.

And ABUs are beginning to be available in surplus, eBay and other sources so I don't think it's going to be the apocalypse that's being predicted.

Honestly, I don't know why we all go so ballistic about how much uniforms cost. Boy Scout uniforms, for example, cost $49.99 for the shirt and another $49.99 for the pants...throw in a neckerchief and a hat and a handbook, and you're up to $120 or so. My kids when they were in high school had to pay fees for their athletic uniforms. Yes it's an expense, but CAP is hardly unusual in requiring people to pay for uniforms.

^^ This.

When we moved from fatigues to BDUs, the EXACT SAME ARGUMENTS were had: "uniformity," "cost," "camouflage," and "why?" 
- We moved to BDUs and if my rememberey serves, better than 90% of our membership switched in the first year. So much for uniformity. (a lack of uniformity only bothers a small subset of people..)
- Yes, BDUs were somewhat more expensive than fatigues had been, but fatigues were dwindling rapidly in availability. Even jungle fatigues. Probably even worse than BDUs are today since there was not any sort of commercial market for that uniform like there is today. BDUs were far more readily available than fatigues when we switched. (Even now, I've gotten an ABU shirt and two pairs of ABU pants and spent less than $30, as ABUs are readily available now, and we've had units *turn down* tri-walls full of ABUs from AF sources that were offered for free, citing "we can't wear them". ABUs are plentiful if you look for them.)
- We've worn a camouflage uniform since circa 1991 and nobody's misplaced a member in the woods due to his uniform yet (and you won't do it with ABUs, either)
- It is the Air Force uniform.

The switch to BDUs was predicted to be the end of everything, from discipline to the organization itself.

Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on February 28, 2016, 01:43:00 AM
Quote from: Jester on February 27, 2016, 11:15:17 PM
Walk into MCS, find the boots on the wall, buy them. I'm not talking about the ones in supply.

Black boots look like garbage with ABUs. I don't care about shines. They went to suede to shift focus on things that matter.

I'd love to walk into an MCS.  The nearest one is 90 minutes away and I still haven't cracked the code of who I have to talk to so I can get on the authorization list at the gate, nevermind my vanload of cadets.  The minute I figure that one out, I'll be there.

But I don't disagree with you about the focus shift.  I only shine my jump boots infrequently, but all I ever did with the rough-outs worn with ACUs was brush them off once in awhile with a suede brush. Life was considerably nicer when a) I didn't have to worry about scuffing my boots; and b) I didn't have to shine them anyway if I did.

:)

ETA: https://www.shopmyexchange.com/browse/military/air-force-uniforms/af-footwear/_/N-108188 (https://www.shopmyexchange.com/browse/military/air-force-uniforms/af-footwear/_/N-108188)  Which ones are the "issue boot" you speak of, cuz even thru MCSS, the Bellevilles I was coveting are $136.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Jester on February 28, 2016, 02:15:02 AM
The DLATS boot is that same model but cheaper. I don't know why they're not on the site.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: LSThiker on February 28, 2016, 02:47:11 AM
I know this was talked about with the Col Knowles picture, but was there any "final" word on wing patch and squadron patches?  The examples shown show only badges with no NCSA, Wing/Region, Squadron, Left Pocket patches. 

I am curious if CAP will eliminate those as well or if they will stay on board with the final proposal to the USAF.

Likewise, will that also be the same standard for the Corporate BDUs?

How is the small talk/rumor mill going for transitioning the Corporate BDUs to having the dark blue tapes instead of the ultramarine?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on February 28, 2016, 04:16:53 AM
Quote from: LSThiker on February 28, 2016, 02:47:11 AM
How is the small talk/rumor mill going for transitioning the Corporate BDUs to having the dark blue tapes instead of the ultramarine?

it is my understanding that all the utility uniforms (ABUs and BBDUs) would have the same nametag color.

Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: LSThiker on February 28, 2016, 04:36:45 AM
Quote from: NIN on February 28, 2016, 04:16:53 AM
Quote from: LSThiker on February 28, 2016, 02:47:11 AM
How is the small talk/rumor mill going for transitioning the Corporate BDUs to having the dark blue tapes instead of the ultramarine?

it is my understanding that all the utility uniforms (ABUs and BBDUs) would have the same nametag color.

If for whatever reason the ABUs get rejected by the USAF or the dark blue gets rejected by the USAF, is CAP still planning on making the change for the corporate uniform?  Or will CAP approve (again according to the rumor mill) the switch to dark blue tapes before seeking the USAF approval?


It has been a long time since I attended the winter session.  In the past, the CAP-USAF commander would usually attend.  Before the vote session, he would make a comment towards the USAF's point of view.  Did he make a comment on the possible switch?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on February 28, 2016, 05:24:37 AM
Quote from: LSThiker on February 28, 2016, 04:36:45 AM
If for whatever reason the ABUs get rejected by the USAF or the dark blue gets rejected by the USAF, is CAP still planning on making the change for the corporate uniform?  Or will CAP approve (again according to the rumor mill) the switch to dark blue tapes before seeking the USAF approval?

It has been a long time since I attended the winter session.  In the past, the CAP-USAF commander would usually attend.  Before the vote session, he would make a comment towards the USAF's point of view.  Did he make a comment on the possible switch?

well, any change to the AF Uniform (even the BDUs) still has to get a blessing from the AF, so I suspect that any and all such changes would be held until the AF signs off on ABUs (or doesn't).  If ABUs don't go, I suspect all will remain status quo.

I wasn't in Washington, so I have no idea what Colonel Tyynismaa might have said (I did see a pic of him speaking, so we do know he talks! LOL) but it is my understanding that CAP-USAF is likely rogered up on most/all of the changes to go forward to HAF since they were spooled up to do the same in 2014 before CAP pulled the package.  Plus, I believe that CAP-USAF has been in on the process the whole time, so if I don't miss my guess, any changes that CAP has even thought about have probably been looked at from a "will CAP-USAF approve this?" stand point before it even leaves the NUC.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Storm Chaser on February 28, 2016, 02:10:12 PM
A transition period in which both black boots and sage or tan boots where allowed would mitigate the cost of having to buy new boots right away. I think that's better than keeping the black boots with ABUs, which just look odd.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: PHall on February 28, 2016, 03:10:13 PM
When the Air Force was transitioning to the ABU there was a 2 or 3 year period where black boots were allowed to be worn with the ABU because of problems with the green boots.
So it's not like the Air Force has never seen black boots with the ABU.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: goblin on February 28, 2016, 03:14:38 PM
It's also in the AFI.

Exception: If approved by MAJCOM commanders, black leather boots may be temporarily authorized with ABUs in industrial work environments or in work center where industrial products or processes cause irreparable staining to the sage green suede or tan suede boot. This exception is not specifically restricted to flightline activities and is in effect until a stain-resistant green boot becomes available
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Spaceman3750 on February 28, 2016, 04:45:25 PM

Quote from: Goblin on February 28, 2016, 03:14:38 PM
It's also in the AFI.

Exception: If approved by MAJCOM commanders, black leather boots may be temporarily authorized with ABUs in industrial work environments or in work center where industrial products or processes cause irreparable staining to the sage green suede or tan suede boot. This exception is not specifically restricted to flightline activities and is in effect until a stain-resistant green boot becomes available

There is a stain resistant green boot now, but the point is still valid.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on February 28, 2016, 04:51:41 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on February 28, 2016, 02:10:12 PM
A transition period in which both black boots and sage or tan boots where allowed would mitigate the cost of having to buy new boots right away. I think that's better than keeping the black boots with ABUs, which just look odd.

(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10391914_204243029480_5685878_n.jpg?oh=0920915ee1a47c3fe59df76b6e420143&oe=57664211)

We wore white t-shirts for a short time after BDUs came in. Took maybe a year to get that sorted.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: raivo on February 28, 2016, 05:49:47 PM
Quote from: NIN on February 28, 2016, 04:51:41 PMWe wore white t-shirts for a short time after BDUs came in. Took maybe a year to get that sorted.

I wore a white t-shirt with my BDUs once when I was a brand new cadet who didn't know any better. My flight sergeant informed me that was a "target" and would get me shot.

My first squadron was a little strange.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Storm Chaser on February 28, 2016, 05:51:26 PM
We had a transition period in the Air Force with regards to the sage boots. When the ABU was introduced, tan boots where initially allowed, but never black. Black boots were kept for the flight suit for a while, until we fully transitioned to sage green.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Lem on February 28, 2016, 11:49:03 PM
Greetings everyone

Pardon my ignorance  but could someone please explain the difference between the ABU's and the ACU's.  I know our local surplus/tactical shop carries some ACU's for the Virginia Defense Force. Not sure if they have any of the ABU's. If and when these are approved to wear I will ask them to check on the availability and cost

Thank you for your time and consideration for this matter
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: JeffDG on February 29, 2016, 12:02:59 AM
A few clarifications.

First:  Boots.  This was discussed.  The black was chosen by the uniform committee for several reasons.  1)  Cost.  The black boots are much lower cost than the suede, 2)  Shining...I believe on Wing/CC said shining boots "builds character", 3)  Uniformity.  All the other uniform combinations in CAP have black boots (BBDU, Flight Suits, etc), and 4)  It's another distinctive element that may assist with compliance with the AFI requiring our AF uniforms to be distinct.

Second:  T-Shirts.  A member of the National CAC asked a question about "performance" T-shirts vs. Cotton.  The answer was that it wasn't specifically addressed, but the assumption was that any under-shirt authorized by the USAF would be available for the ABU, but that would be pending final approval.  Another member of the National CAC had the courage (considering the general preference among the cadet population for the ABUs) to speak against the change, and did so eloquently.

Third:  Wear-out will likely be on the order of 3 years, but again, will be part of the transition plan.

Fourth:  Patches, they discussed no change to wing patches (ie @ option of Wing/CC), a single unit patch, a single "activity" patch, along with nametape and rating (ie wings/GT/etc) patch, either subdued or full colour

Those are just a few notes from a guy sitting in on the meeting.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: JeffDG on February 29, 2016, 12:05:24 AM
Quote from: NIN on February 28, 2016, 05:24:37 AM
I wasn't in Washington, so I have no idea what Colonel Tyynismaa might have said (I did see a pic of him speaking, so we do know he talks! LOL) but it is my understanding that CAP-USAF is likely rogered up on most/all of the changes to go forward to HAF since they were spooled up to do the same in 2014 before CAP pulled the package.  Plus, I believe that CAP-USAF has been in on the process the whole time, so if I don't miss my guess, any changes that CAP has even thought about have probably been looked at from a "will CAP-USAF approve this?" stand point before it even leaves the NUC.
Col T said that CAP-USAF would be happy to coordinate the request.

Gen Vasquez said he's hopeful, but doesn't want to prejudge what the AF will do with it.

The NUC had AF representation on it, so none of this will be a surprise to them.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: LSThiker on February 29, 2016, 12:06:49 AM
Quote from: Lem on February 28, 2016, 11:49:03 PM
Greetings everyone

Pardon my ignorance  but could someone please explain the difference between the ABU's and the ACU's.  I know our local surplus/tactical shop carries some ACU's for the Virginia Defense Force. Not sure if they have any of the ABU's. If and when these are approved to wear I will ask them to check on the availability and cost

Thank you for your time and consideration for this matter

ABUs = Airman Battle Uniform (Air Force uniform)
ACUs = Army Combat Uniform (Army uniform)

ABUs, which are cut essentially the same as BDUs, are the Air Force's newest uniform.  They use a tiger stripe pattern:
(http://thumbs3.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mcXGbKxD9srVfcAzuRoKLQA.jpg)


To make matters muddy, the ACU is not a camouflage pattern.  Rather it is a design and cut of a specific army uniform.  It is cut different than the old BDUs in both the top and bottoms.  The camouflage pattern is called UCP or Universal Camouflage Pattern:

(http://crackberry.com/sites/crackberry.com/files/styles/w325/public/images/wallpaper_20081120110421_3207154172.jpg?itok=Kgo29Nhz)

This pattern is being phased out for the Operational Camouflage Pattern or OCP:
(http://www.stripes.com/polopoly_fs/1.350173.1433262832!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_804/image.jpg)

So the ACU UCP is being phased out for the ACU OCP.  The uniforms are cut and designed the same but use different camouflage patterns. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: abdsp51 on February 29, 2016, 12:09:42 AM
Quote from: LSThiker on February 29, 2016, 12:06:49 AM
So the ACU UCP is being phased out for the ACU OCP.  The uniforms are cut and designed the same but use different camouflage patterns.

Close the Army is/has gone to a pattern known as Skorpion.  Almost identical to multi-cam(OCP)  but enough of a variation to avoid a lawsuit.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: LSThiker on February 29, 2016, 12:17:02 AM
Quote from: abdsp51 on February 29, 2016, 12:09:42 AM
Quote from: LSThiker on February 29, 2016, 12:06:49 AM
So the ACU UCP is being phased out for the ACU OCP.  The uniforms are cut and designed the same but use different camouflage patterns.

Close the Army is/has gone to a pattern known as Skorpion.  Almost identical to multi-cam(OCP)  but enough of a variation to avoid a lawsuit.

Kind of.  The Army is still calling it the OCP in a generic sense.  It is just further clarified using the Trade-Names as Multi-Cam OCP and Scorpion W2 OCP.  Both of which are OCP.

Not exactly "official" but a good enough explanation.
http://soldiersystems.net/2014/10/03/ocp-is-ocp-confused-yet/ (http://soldiersystems.net/2014/10/03/ocp-is-ocp-confused-yet/) 


Here is the confusing ALARACT:
QuoteALARACT 085/2015

DTG: R 012016Z JUN 15

UNCLAS

SUBJ/ALARACT 085/2015 – TRANSITION TO OPERATIONAL CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN ARMY COMBAT UNIFORM (ACU) ENSEMBLE

THIS ALARACT MESSAGE HAS BEEN TRANSMITTED BY USAITA ON BEHALF OF HQDA DCS G-4//DALO-SUT//

(U) REFERENCES.

A. ARMY POSTURE STATEMENT, 2013

B. ARMY CAMPAIGN PLAN, 2013

C. AR 670-1, 10 APRIL 2015

D. DA PAM 670-1, 10 APRIL 2015

E. HOUSE REPORT 111-151, SEPTEMBER 2009

1. (U) THE PURPOSE OF THIS MESSAGE IS TO PROVIDE INFORMATION ON THE TRANSITION FROM THE UNIVERSAL CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN AND OPERATION ENDURING FREEDOM CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN ACU TO THE OPERATIONAL CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN ACU. THIS MESSAGE ALSO PROVIDES GUIDANCE ON THE WEAR OF THE OPERATIONAL CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN ACU ENSEMBLE AS APPROVED BY THE SECRETARY OF ARMY AND CHIEF OF STAFF OF THE ARMY ON 1 MAY 2014. POLICY CONTAINED IN THIS MESSAGE IS EFFECTIVE 1 JULY 2015. PREVIOUSLY GRANTED EXCEPTIONS TO POLICY FOR WEAR OF THE OPERATION ENDURING FREEDOM CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN UNIFORM OUTSIDE OF COMBAT AREAS OF OPERATIONS REMAIN IN EFFECT.

2. (U) DURING THE TRANSITION PERIOD, SOLDIERS ARE AUTHORIZED TO WEAR ANY OF THE THREE CAMOUFLAGE PATTERNS OF THE ACU (UNIVERSAL CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN, OPERATION ENDURING FREEDOM CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN, AND THE OPERATIONAL CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN). ALL COMPONENTS OF THE UNIFORM MUST BE OF THE SAME CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN UNLESS OTHERWISE STATED IN THIS MESSAGE. COMMANDERS WILL NOT REQUIRE SOLDIERS TO PURCHASE SPECIFIC UNIFORM ITEMS PRIOR TO THE MANDATORY POSSESSION DATE LISTED IN PARAGRAPH 10 BELOW.

3. (U) THE OPERATIONAL CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN ACU ENSEMBLE CONSISTS OF THE FOLLOWING ITEMS:

3.A. COAT
3.B. TROUSERS
3.C. UNDERSHIRT (TAN 499)
3.D. BELT, RIGGER (TAN 499)
3.E. DRAWERS (TAN 499)
3.F. SOCKS, TAN, GREEN OR BLACK, CUSHION SOLE
3.G. BOOTS, COMBAT, COYOTE COLOR
3.H. HEADGEAR

4. (U) ACU WEAR POLICY. THERE IS NO CHANGE TO CURRENT WEAR POLICY (AR 670-1) EXCEPT AS NOTED BELOW.

4.A. DURING THE TRANSITION PERIOD, CLOTHING INITIAL ISSUE POINTS ARE AUTHORIZED TO CONTINUE TO ISSUE TO INITIAL ENTRY TRAINING SOLDIERS THE TAN/SAND COLORED UNDERGARMENTS WITH THE OPERATIONAL CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN ACU. SOLDIERS ARE AUTHORIZED TO WEAR THE SAND UNDERSHIRT; WHITE, TAN OR BROWN DRAWERS; SAND RIGGER BELT; AND TAN COMBAT BOOTS WITH THE OPERATION ENDURING FREEDOM AND/OR OPERATIONAL CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN ACU COAT AND TROUSERS. THE TAN 499 UNDERSHIRT, TAN 499 RIGGER BELT, AND COYOTE COMBAT BOOTS ARE NOT AUTHORIZED FOR WEAR WITH THE UNIVERSAL CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN COAT AND TROUSERS.

4.B. THE EXCEPTIONS OUTLINED ABOVE ALSO APPLIES TO THE COMBAT VEHICLE CREWMAN UNIFORM, MECHANIC COVERALLS, AND THE ARMY AIRCREW COMBAT UNIFORM (A2CU).

5. (U) INSIGNIA AND ACCOUTERMENTS WORN ON THE ACU MUST BE OF THE CORRESPONDING CAMOUFLAGES PATTERN COLOR. THE BACKGROUND MATERIAL OF NAME TAPES, SHOULDER SLEEVE INSIGNIA, TABS, GRADE INSIGNIA, FORMER WARTIME SERVICE, AND SEW-ON BADGES WILL MATCH THE CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN OF THE UNIFORM.

6. (U) THE RAPID FIELDING INITIATIVE WILL CONTINUE TO ISSUE SOLDIERS FLAME RESISTANT ARMY COMBAT UNIFORMS IN THE OPERATION ENDURING FREEDOM CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN UNTIL INVENTORIES ARE EXHAUSTED.

7. (U) THE ARMY'S PLAN TO TRANSITION TO THE OPERATIONAL CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN ACU STARTING 1 JULY 2015 AND END 1 OCTOBER 2019. THE OPERATIONAL CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN ACU WILL BE AVAILABLE AS FOLLOWS:

7.A. (U) IN ARMY MILITARY CLOTHING STORES (AMCS) BY INSTALLATION IAW THE ENCLOSED APPENDIX. DA FORM 3078 PERSONAL CLOTHING REQUESTS WILL NOT BE ACCEPTED FOR OPERATIONAL CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN ACU UNTIL JANUARY 2016. EXCEPTIONS TO POLICY PRIOR TO THE START DATE WILL ONLY BE GRANTED BY THE CLOTHING AND SERVICES OFFICE.

7.B. AT THE CLOTHING INITIAL ISSUE POINT LOCATIONS FOR INITIAL ENTRY TRAINING SOLDIERS IN 2QFY16.

7.C. FOR SOLDIERS (ACTIVE DUTY AND UNITED STATES ARMY RESERVE (USAR)) ON ORDERS TO PERFORM DRILL SERGEANT DUTIES AND ADVANCED INDIVIDUAL TRAINING PLATOON SERGEANTS ARE AUTHORIZED TO OBTAIN THEIR SUPPLEMENTAL ISSUE OF THE OPERATIONAL CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN ACU FROM THEIR LOCAL AMCS BEGINNING ON 15 DECEMBER 2015 (1QFY16) AND HAVE 90 DAYS TO DRAW THEIR SUPPLEMENTAL ISSUE IN ACCORDANCE WITH COMMON TABLE ALLOWANCES 50-900, TABLE NUMBER 3.

7.D. AT THE CLOTHING CENTRAL DISTRIBUTION FACILITY AT THE KENTUCKY LOGISTICS OPERATIONS CENTER FOR ARMY NATIONAL GUARD, USAR, AND SENIOR RESERVE OFFICER TRAINING CORPS IN 4QFY16.

8. (U) THE WEAR OUT DATE FOR THE UNIVERSAL CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN ACU IS 30 SEPTEMBER 2019.

9. (U) THE MANDATORY POSSESSION DATE FOR THE OPERATIONAL CAMOUFLAGE PATTERN ACU IS 1 OCTOBER 2019.

10. (U) HQDA G-1 POC FOR UNIFORM WEAR POLICY IS SGM EVA COMMONS, DSN: 312-225-5473, COMMERCIAL: (703) 695-5473, OR E-MAIL: EVA.M.COMMONS.MIL@MAIL.MIL. HQDA G-4 POC IS MAJ DANNY PADELLO, DSN: 224-2718, COMMERCIAL: (703) 614-2718, OR E-MAIL: DANIEL.E.PADELLO.MIL@MAIL.MIL.

11. (U) THIS MESSAGE HAS BEEN AUTHORIZED BY THE ARMY G-1 AND ARMY G-4.

12. (U) THE DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF, G-1 IS THE PROPONENT OF WEAR AND APPEARANCE OF ARMY UNIFORMS AND INSIGNIA POLICY AND WILL INCORPORATE THE GUIDANCE IN THIS MESSAGE INTO REFERENCE D BY 1 JULY 2015.

13. (U) THIS MESSAGE EXPIRES 15 MAY 2016.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: abdsp51 on February 29, 2016, 12:27:05 AM
Quote from: LSThiker on February 29, 2016, 12:17:02 AM
Quote from: abdsp51 on February 29, 2016, 12:09:42 AM
Quote from: LSThiker on February 29, 2016, 12:06:49 AM
So the ACU UCP is being phased out for the ACU OCP.  The uniforms are cut and designed the same but use different camouflage patterns.

Close the Army is/has gone to a pattern known as Skorpion.  Almost identical to multi-cam(OCP)  but enough of a variation to avoid a lawsuit.

Kind of.  The Army is still calling it the OCP in a generic sense.  It is just further clarified using the Trade-Names as Multi-Cam OCP and Scorpion W2 OCP.  Both of which are OCP.

Not exactly "official" but a good enough explanation.
http://soldiersystems.net/2014/10/03/ocp-is-ocp-confused-yet/ (http://soldiersystems.net/2014/10/03/ocp-is-ocp-confused-yet/)
They can call it OCP all they want.  There a slight variation between the multicam and scorpion due to the Army/DOD not wanting to pay the licensing fees.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: LSThiker on February 29, 2016, 12:32:12 AM
Quote from: abdsp51 on February 29, 2016, 12:27:05 AM
Quote from: LSThiker on February 29, 2016, 12:17:02 AM
Quote from: abdsp51 on February 29, 2016, 12:09:42 AM
Quote from: LSThiker on February 29, 2016, 12:06:49 AM
So the ACU UCP is being phased out for the ACU OCP.  The uniforms are cut and designed the same but use different camouflage patterns.

Close the Army is/has gone to a pattern known as Skorpion.  Almost identical to multi-cam(OCP)  but enough of a variation to avoid a lawsuit.

Kind of.  The Army is still calling it the OCP in a generic sense.  It is just further clarified using the Trade-Names as Multi-Cam OCP and Scorpion W2 OCP.  Both of which are OCP.

Not exactly "official" but a good enough explanation.
http://soldiersystems.net/2014/10/03/ocp-is-ocp-confused-yet/ (http://soldiersystems.net/2014/10/03/ocp-is-ocp-confused-yet/)
They can call it OCP all they want.  There a slight variation between the multicam and scorpion due to the Army/DOD not wanting to pay the licensing fees.

Did not say there was not.  Not even arguing that. 

So my point still stands that the Army is phasing out the ACU UCP for the ACU OCP.

But right now all three patterns are allowed.  Ultimately, just the ACU OCP Scorpion W2 will be allowed.   
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Holding Pattern on February 29, 2016, 01:20:08 AM
Quote from: JeffDG on February 29, 2016, 12:02:59 AM2)  Shining...I believe on Wing/CC said shining boots "builds character",
:clap:
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: lordmonar on February 29, 2016, 02:09:21 AM
Quote from: abdsp51 on February 29, 2016, 12:09:42 AM
Quote from: LSThiker on February 29, 2016, 12:06:49 AM
So the ACU UCP is being phased out for the ACU OCP.  The uniforms are cut and designed the same but use different camouflage patterns.

Close the Army is/has gone to a pattern known as Skorpion.  Almost identical to multi-cam(OCP)  but enough of a variation to avoid a lawsuit.
Actually it was the other way around if I'm not mistaken.

The Army got Crye Precision to make the Skorpion pattern as part of the ACU testing.   Afterward Crye made changes and marketed the Multi-cam patter.

Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on February 29, 2016, 02:40:09 AM

Quote from: JeffDG on February 29, 2016, 12:02:59 AM
,2)  Shining...I believe on Wing/CC said shining boots "builds character"

If that's the case, I have an over abundance of it. Anybody need some?

:)
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on February 29, 2016, 04:58:57 AM
Quote from: NIN on February 29, 2016, 02:40:09 AM

Quote from: JeffDG on February 29, 2016, 12:02:59 AM
,2)  Shining...I believe on Wing/CC said shining boots "builds character"

If that's the case, I have an over abundance of it. Anybody need some?

:)


Yea, that's some FMJ-Generation reasoning for keeping the boots...
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Al Sayre on February 29, 2016, 12:38:48 PM
Quote from: NIN on February 29, 2016, 02:40:09 AM

Quote from: JeffDG on February 29, 2016, 12:02:59 AM
,2)  Shining...I believe on Wing/CC said shining boots "builds character"

If that's the case, I have an over abundance of it. Anybody need some?

:)

No thanks, we already have enough characters...
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: GaryJSO on February 29, 2016, 02:27:31 PM
The heck with all that, let's get to the real question everybody has on their mind:

Will we be able to wear our WWII vintage wings on the ABU?

I think they will, because they wouldn't want Vanguard to miss a chance to gouge us another $8 a pop for an item costs them 75¢ to make.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: THRAWN on February 29, 2016, 02:41:55 PM
Quote from: GaryJSO on February 29, 2016, 02:27:31 PM
The heck with all that, let's get to the real question everybody has on their mind:

Will we be able to wear our WWII vintage wings on the ABU?

I think they will, because they wouldn't want Vanguard to miss a chance to gouge us another $8 a pop for an item costs them 75¢ to make.

Nobody said that you HAVE TO wear them anyway. Some of us prefer that you didn't....
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on February 29, 2016, 03:04:10 PM
Quote from: Al Sayre on February 29, 2016, 12:38:48 PM
No thanks, we already have enough characters...

Well, lemme know. I'm keeping mine in an old tin of Kiwi.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: LTC Don on February 29, 2016, 04:03:02 PM
My only issue with this is that right now, I have 12-year olds too small for the smallest BDUs. I've had a couple that had to buy 'kids' BDUs just to have any kind of similar camo uniform.  How is that going to work with the ABUs once they become mandatory?  XS-Short is still too big for young cadets, who may not hit their 'growth spurt' for another 2-3 years.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Paul Creed III on February 29, 2016, 04:05:34 PM
Quote from: LTC Don on February 29, 2016, 04:03:02 PM
My only issue with this is that right now, I have 12-year olds too small for the smallest BDUs. I've had a couple that had to buy 'kids' BDUs just to have any kind of similar camo uniform.  How is that going to work with the ABUs once they become mandatory?  XS-Short is still too big for young cadets, who may not hit their 'growth spurt' for another 2-3 years.

I suspect that this will continue to be an issue if/when ABUs become authorized. I've had cadets that had to take their BDUs to a tailor to be altered and they still swam in them sometimes.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: LTC Don on February 29, 2016, 04:42:58 PM
Then there is the issue of hats, the patrol cap, and this absurd allergy to boonie hats.  Will the ABU boonie be authorized?

It'll be interesting to see if NHQ can actually work with CAP-USAF and the DRMO system to divert stocks to CAP Wings BEFORE being released into the state's federal surplus chain and the auction systems so we don't lose access to millions of uniforms and accessories, like we did with the BDUs.   ::)
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on February 29, 2016, 04:50:22 PM
Quote from: LTC Don on February 29, 2016, 04:03:02 PM
My only issue with this is that right now, I have 12-year olds too small for the smallest BDUs. I've had a couple that had to buy 'kids' BDUs just to have any kind of similar camo uniform.  How is that going to work with the ABUs once they become mandatory?  XS-Short is still too big for young cadets, who may not hit their 'growth spurt' for another 2-3 years.

Its been an issue since forever.

Cadets didn't fit into fatigues. Moms tailored

Cadets didn't fit into BDUs. Moms tailored (or, you found the exposed button "kid's BDUs" which is, technically speaking, not really BDUs.) 
(I had a mom in the sq who pulled her son's BDU shirt lower pockets, moved them up like 2 inches, sewed them back on, and then did a 2" hem on the bottom of the shirt. She also did a wonderful trick on the sleeves to take like 2 1/2 - 3" out of them)

The same thing will happen to ABUs.

Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on February 29, 2016, 04:52:30 PM
Quote from: LTC Don on February 29, 2016, 04:42:58 PM
It'll be interesting to see if NHQ can actually work with CAP-USAF and the DRMO system to divert stocks to CAP Wings BEFORE being released into the state's federal surplus chain and the auction systems so we don't lose access to millions of uniforms and accessories, like we did with the BDUs.   ::)

Yes.

There have been anecdotal reports of various ANG and AFRES units offering CAP squadrons ABUs by the pallet load and we've had to "turn them down."

I suspect that if we were somehow able to obtain ABUs just from the IET washouts at Lackland, we'd probably keep CAP cadets in uniforms for the next 20 years.

Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: lordmonar on February 29, 2016, 04:55:01 PM
The Nellis Airman's Attic has been wanting to give us boxes and boxes of ABUs......so start hitting up your local bases and start making that contact with them.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Meridius on February 29, 2016, 09:04:40 PM
What no one has said...  Congress in the FY15 appropriations bill dictated that the services will go to one utility uniform (OCP, ABU, whatever).  So, CAP may be adopting a uniform that is being phased out when Congress is telling everyone in uniform to wear the same uniform.  Didn't we just become a "component of the United States Air Force?"  If that is the case, why are we not adopting multi-cam or skorpion?

Personally, I like the ABU.  I liked the woodland BDU.  Wore it (BDU) for a decade while in the Army.  But the OCP would be better in terms of wearing an active uniform (active in the sense that it is currently being used) not a uniform (BDU/ABU) that is being relegated to history.  Since we are non-active duty and volunteer, keep the white on blue or go to silver on navy tapes and badges.

Patches - as stated earlier - I don't want to have us continue to look like clowns with patches all over the place.  However, for ES, our customers are usually non-military such as county ES or law enforcement SAR.  SAR type patches probably should be worn, or at least addressed.  Definitely, SUBDUE them.  No white, no bright colors other than red or cinnamon with browns, blacks and greens.  Or, just Velcro them on during missions on shoulder or pocket, whatever.  Limit the number and ENFORCE -- limit the occupational and skill badges (we have one member that wears foreign jump wings, command, expert infantry badge, basic paratrooper, army basic air crew, CAP observer, and GBD).

My opinion, of course.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: lordmonar on February 29, 2016, 09:09:43 PM
Yes Congress did pass that as part of FY 15 spending bill.....and they then failed to comply with their part of the bill to actually give the services the rules and specifications that they were supposed to provide.

They Army has changed to their version of Multi-cams.....the USAF's current stance seems to be.....we will use the ABUs in garrison and then issues the "common combat uniform" as they send airman to combat.

I have not heard a peep out of the Navy and  Marines.

But yes....if the USAF ever changes......in time so would CAP.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Lem on February 29, 2016, 09:23:24 PM
Thanks  to all that responded to the difference in the ABU and the ACU  that helped  greatly. This is surely an exciting time to be a member in the Civil Air Patrol. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: arajca on February 29, 2016, 09:26:24 PM
Quote from: Meridius on February 29, 2016, 09:04:40 PM
Patches - as stated earlier - I don't want to have us continue to look like clowns with patches all over the place.  However, for ES, our customers are usually non-military such as county ES or law enforcement SAR.  SAR type patches probably should be worn, or at least addressed.  Definitely, SUBDUE them.  No white, no bright colors other than red or cinnamon with browns, blacks and greens.  Or, just Velcro them on during missions on shoulder or pocket, whatever.  Limit the number and ENFORCE -- limit the occupational and skill badges (we have one member that wears foreign jump wings, command, expert infantry badge, basic paratrooper, army basic air crew, CAP observer, and GBD).

My opinion, of course.
Don't subdue them. The purpose of subdued patches is to make them blend in. I developed a system to 'subtilize' the patches. Bright colors become dark colors, i.e. red becomes maroon/rust, bright blue becomes navy blue, white to grey, yellow/gold to old gold, etc. still full color, but not nearly as garish on the uniforms.

There is already a limit on badges - 4 max, 5 if one wears a command badge, on the service uniforms. Two/three on the working (bdu/bbdu) uniforms - two above the CAP tape, and command badge above the name (current commanders)/below the name tape (graduated commanders). The only badge authorized on a pocket flap is the graduated commander's badge. You have an enforcement issue.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: JeffDG on February 29, 2016, 09:51:42 PM
There was a question at the Command Council about patches, and it was stated that full colour will be authorized.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Lem on February 29, 2016, 11:02:20 PM
Well this my opinion but I think if we are going to all the trouble to change uniforms we should go with the same regulations as the Air Force   as to the number and placement of patches. The dark blue/ silver letters will be distinctive enough to tell the difference.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: lordmonar on February 29, 2016, 11:22:23 PM
Yep

I'm gonna recommend to my wing commander to not allow patch.  Just rank and badges. 

YMMV
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: USACAP on February 29, 2016, 11:50:30 PM
Yep. You're on to something pal.
The USAF brass intends to end up in Multicam/Skorpion-OCP.
They just want it to be a fait accompli so they don't have to apologize to the USMC.
The Army is the largest service component, personnel-wise ... despite the Marines moaning about needing their funky digital camo (which is all borrowed from the Canadians), they'll end up in the same Multicam/Skorpion-OCP as the Army.
People get all whiney whenever this topic comes up.

Personally I think CAP should wear safety orange "in the field." Eliminate the need for orange vests and all that.

Quote from: Meridius on February 29, 2016, 09:04:40 PM
What no one has said...  Congress in the FY15 appropriations bill dictated that the services will go to one utility uniform (OCP, ABU, whatever). 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Shieldel on March 01, 2016, 12:27:40 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on February 29, 2016, 11:22:23 PM
Yep

I'm gonna recommend to my wing commander to not allow patch.  Just rank and badges. 

YMMV

I'll bring it to CAC. I'm still Nellis Comp's CAC Rep. I can bring that up at the upcoming meeting if you'd like
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: lordmonar on March 01, 2016, 12:29:07 AM
Quote from: Shieldel on March 01, 2016, 12:27:40 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on February 29, 2016, 11:22:23 PM
Yep

I'm gonna recommend to my wing commander to not allow patch.  Just rank and badges. 

YMMV

I'll bring it to CAC. I'm still Nellis Comp's CAC Rep. I can bring that up at the upcoming meeting if you'd like
No need.  I'm the Wing Command NCO.....:)
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Shieldel on March 01, 2016, 12:30:21 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on March 01, 2016, 12:29:07 AM
Quote from: Shieldel on March 01, 2016, 12:27:40 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on February 29, 2016, 11:22:23 PM
Yep

I'm gonna recommend to my wing commander to not allow patch.  Just rank and badges. 

YMMV

I'll bring it to CAC. I'm still Nellis Comp's CAC Rep. I can bring that up at the upcoming meeting if you'd like
No need.  I'm the Wing Command NCO.....:)

I keep forgetting these things. BAHAHA. I'm saying to myself "C'mon Scheidle you JUST dealt with Sgt this last weekend at the SAREX!" -facepalm-
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: GaryJSO on March 01, 2016, 01:01:09 AM
Quote from: THRAWN on February 29, 2016, 02:41:55 PM
Quote from: GaryJSO on February 29, 2016, 02:27:31 PM
The heck with all that, let's get to the real question everybody has on their mind:

Will we be able to wear our WWII vintage wings on the ABU?

I think they will, because they wouldn't want Vanguard to miss a chance to gouge us another $8 a pop for an item costs them 75¢ to make.

Nobody said that you HAVE TO wear them anyway. Some of us prefer that you didn't....

I wouldn't wear the vintage wings if NHQ offered a stipend for doing it.  Pay $12.50 (+S&H) for something that looks more like an Argentianian parachutist badge than US pilot wings, just to put on a light blue shirt I wear maybe every two months, and after 31 Dec 16 will go into the shoebox with all the stuff I actually earned instead of bought just to participate in a marketing gimmick?  Not.

But thanks for the smile; it's always amusing when people take the time to state in writing they are too dense to pick up on really obvious satire.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: THRAWN on March 01, 2016, 01:05:47 AM
Quote from: GaryJSO on March 01, 2016, 01:01:09 AM
Quote from: THRAWN on February 29, 2016, 02:41:55 PM
Quote from: GaryJSO on February 29, 2016, 02:27:31 PM
The heck with all that, let's get to the real question everybody has on their mind:

Will we be able to wear our WWII vintage wings on the ABU?

I think they will, because they wouldn't want Vanguard to miss a chance to gouge us another $8 a pop for an item costs them 75¢ to make.

Nobody said that you HAVE TO wear them anyway. Some of us prefer that you didn't....

I wouldn't wear the vintage wings if NHQ offered a stipend for doing it.  Pay $12.50 (+S&H) for something that looks more like an Argentianian parachutist badge than US pilot wings, just to put on a light blue shirt I wear maybe every two months, and after 31 Dec 16 will go into the shoebox with all the stuff I actually earned instead of bought just to participate in a marketing gimmick?  Not.

But thanks for the smile; it's always amusing when people take the time to state in writing they are too dense to pick up on really obvious satire.

It is even more amusing when people prove that they are classless instead of leaving us all to just guess...keep the personal attacks to yourself.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: abdsp51 on March 01, 2016, 01:18:03 AM
Quote from: USACAP on February 29, 2016, 11:50:30 PM
The USAF brass intends to end up in Multicam/Skorpion-OCP.

Cite because everything I have heard and seen says ABUs are here to stay for a long time.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: goblin on March 01, 2016, 02:37:19 AM

Quote from: abdsp51 on March 01, 2016, 01:18:03 AM
Quote from: USACAP on February 29, 2016, 11:50:30 PM
The USAF brass intends to end up in Multicam/Skorpion-OCP.

Cite because everything I have heard and seen says ABUs are here to stay for a long time.

Second this
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: USACAP on March 01, 2016, 04:21:12 AM
PEO Soldier inside baseball. Nothing to cite but snarky emails.

Doesn't really matter to this CAP discussion, I suppose.
The surplus and backstock of ABUs, when big-USAF does switch, could keep the Civil Air Patrol running for a decade!
The thing that is a $pain$ will be acquiring all the accoutrement - GoreTex jackets/pants, etc etc.

Quote from: abdsp51 on March 01, 2016, 01:18:03 AM
Quote from: USACAP on February 29, 2016, 11:50:30 PM
The USAF brass intends to end up in Multicam/Skorpion-OCP.

Cite because everything I have heard and seen says ABUs are here to stay for a long time.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: abdsp51 on March 01, 2016, 04:59:37 AM
Quote from: USACAP on March 01, 2016, 04:21:12 AM
PEO Soldier inside baseball. Nothing to cite but snarky emails.

Doesn't really matter to this CAP discussion, I suppose.


Yeah you need more than that.  Current stance is that the ABU is here to stay and we are not phasing out any time soon to anything else. 

And it matters since you are trying to present it as fact.  So I hope you have a source from HAF otherwise all hearsay and rumor.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: USACAP on March 01, 2016, 05:21:34 AM
Heh, I guess you'll just be all surprised when you see it on the cover of Air Force Times then ... :)

Quote from: abdsp51 on March 01, 2016, 04:59:37 AM
Quote from: USACAP on March 01, 2016, 04:21:12 AM
PEO Soldier inside baseball. Nothing to cite but snarky emails.

Doesn't really matter to this CAP discussion, I suppose.


Yeah you need more than that.  Current stance is that the ABU is here to stay and we are not phasing out any time soon to anything else. 

And it matters since you are trying to present it as fact.  So I hope you have a source from HAF otherwise all hearsay and rumor.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: PHall on March 01, 2016, 05:28:38 AM
Quote from: USACAP on March 01, 2016, 05:21:34 AM
Heh, I guess you'll just be all surprised when you see it on the cover of Air Force Times then ... :)

Quote from: abdsp51 on March 01, 2016, 04:59:37 AM
Quote from: USACAP on March 01, 2016, 04:21:12 AM
PEO Soldier inside baseball. Nothing to cite but snarky emails.

Doesn't really matter to this CAP discussion, I suppose.


Yeah you need more than that.  Current stance is that the ABU is here to stay and we are not phasing out any time soon to anything else. 

And it matters since you are trying to present it as fact.  So I hope you have a source from HAF otherwise all hearsay and rumor.

The Air Force Times is not exactly a reliable source either. They're just a fish wrapper that caters to Air Force personnel.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: abdsp51 on March 01, 2016, 05:52:56 AM
Quote from: USACAP on March 01, 2016, 05:21:34 AM
Heh, I guess you'll just be all surprised when you see it on the cover of Air Force Times then ... :)

As PHall said not reliable please provide something more credible and solid.  That same publication said the A10 was getting axed.  Otherwise you have no clue as to what you are talking about.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: stillamarine on March 02, 2016, 03:48:02 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on March 01, 2016, 05:52:56 AM
Quote from: USACAP on March 01, 2016, 05:21:34 AM
Heh, I guess you'll just be all surprised when you see it on the cover of Air Force Times then ... :)

As PHall said not reliable please provide something more credible and solid.  That same publication said the A10 was getting axed.  Otherwise you have no clue as to what you are talking about.

Amusingly enough I was at the Alabama Association of Chief's of Police conference yesterday and met the squadron commander of the SFS by pointing out his ABUs to my wife. We got to talking about CAP supposedly going to ask AF for permission for the ABUs. He said that the word he's getting is all the services would be in the same utilities by '19. Granted this is just word of mouth on my end. Don't know where he got it. I just found it amusing after reading the last dozen comments.

We Marines are hardheaded. We were the first ones to move away from woodland cammies then everyone else followed suit. I guess we don't want to be ordered into a uniform we didn't choose ourselves and I'm not mad at them.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on March 02, 2016, 05:37:51 PM
Quote from: stillamarine on March 02, 2016, 03:48:02 PM
Amusingly enough I was at the Alabama Association of Chief's of Police conference yesterday and met the squadron commander of the SFS by pointing out his ABUs to my wife. We got to talking about CAP supposedly going to ask AF for permission for the ABUs. He said that the word he's getting is all the services would be in the same utilities by '19. Granted this is just word of mouth on my end. Don't know where he got it. I just found it amusing after reading the last dozen comments.


He got it where you got it. Someone with zero actual need to know or knowledge made a prognostication.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: stillamarine on March 02, 2016, 06:52:40 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on March 02, 2016, 05:37:51 PM
Quote from: stillamarine on March 02, 2016, 03:48:02 PM
Amusingly enough I was at the Alabama Association of Chief's of Police conference yesterday and met the squadron commander of the SFS by pointing out his ABUs to my wife. We got to talking about CAP supposedly going to ask AF for permission for the ABUs. He said that the word he's getting is all the services would be in the same utilities by '19. Granted this is just word of mouth on my end. Don't know where he got it. I just found it amusing after reading the last dozen comments.


He got it where you got it. Someone with zero actual need to know or knowledge made a prognostication.

Like I said, it wasn't meant to provide an opinion one way or another. It just was amusing and fit the bs in this thread. And I don't know much about your experience in the military but in my experience 90% of what you hear in the military is a product of that someone with zero actual need to know or knowledge.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Holding Pattern on March 02, 2016, 10:37:57 PM
Just got an email about the NUC decision and rationale along with the reminder nothing has been changed yet from capnhq. Check your emails!
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: LSThiker on March 02, 2016, 10:52:25 PM
Quote from: stillamarine on March 02, 2016, 06:52:40 PM
in my experience 90% of what you hear in the military is a product of that someone with zero actual need to know or knowledge.

Ah yes, the E-4 mafia rumor machine with an E-9 or E-8 feeding it :)
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Гугл переводчик on March 03, 2016, 01:57:37 AM
We have a USAF 2nd Lt who told his airman that if they see anyone around base wearing ABU's with tapes that say "Civil Air Patrol" to not go up to them and attack them for stolen valor. The young AF Airman on this base have a history of being... energetic  ;)
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: PHall on March 03, 2016, 02:28:33 AM
Quote from: SamuelRosinsky on March 03, 2016, 01:57:37 AM
We have a USAF 2nd Lt who told his airman that if they see anyone around base wearing ABU's with tapes that say "Civil Air Patrol" to not go up to them and attack them for stolen valor. The young AF Airman on this base have a history of being... energetic  ;)

Maybe I need to visit your base.    >:D      Bruhahahahaha!!!
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: JeffDG on March 03, 2016, 03:11:40 AM
Quote from: SamuelRosinsky on March 03, 2016, 01:57:37 AM
We have a USAF 2nd Lt who told his airman that if they see anyone around base wearing ABU's with tapes that say "Civil Air Patrol" to not go up to them and attack them for stolen valor. The young AF Airman on this base have a history of being... energetic  ;)
You have airmen who listened to 2nd Lts?   >:D
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: goblin on March 03, 2016, 04:12:00 AM

Quote from: SamuelRosinsky on March 03, 2016, 01:57:37 AM
We have a USAF 2nd Lt who told his airman that if they see anyone around base wearing ABU's with tapes that say "Civil Air Patrol" to not go up to them and attack them for stolen valor. The young AF Airman on this base have a history of being... energetic  ;)

What base?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: LSThiker on March 03, 2016, 04:29:02 AM
Quote from: Goblin on March 03, 2016, 04:12:00 AM

Quote from: SamuelRosinsky on March 03, 2016, 01:57:37 AM
We have a USAF 2nd Lt who told his airman that if they see anyone around base wearing ABU's with tapes that say "Civil Air Patrol" to not go up to them and attack them for stolen valor. The young AF Airman on this base have a history of being... energetic  ;)

What base?

Perhaps the base that Boise Composite Squadron (ID-073) meets on:  Gowen Field Air National Guard Base

Just a stab in the dark. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: RogueLeader on March 03, 2016, 04:50:03 AM
I would have guessed Mountain Home AFB. But that works too.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Гугл переводчик on March 03, 2016, 05:09:42 AM
Quote from: RogueLeader on March 03, 2016, 04:50:03 AM
I would have guessed Mountain Home AFB. But that works too.

Plot Twist. Mountain Home AFB and Gowen Field are both correct.  >:D
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: goblin on March 03, 2016, 05:46:30 AM

Quote from: LSThiker on March 03, 2016, 04:29:02 AM
Quote from: Goblin on March 03, 2016, 04:12:00 AM

Quote from: SamuelRosinsky on March 03, 2016, 01:57:37 AM
We have a USAF 2nd Lt who told his airman that if they see anyone around base wearing ABU's with tapes that say "Civil Air Patrol" to not go up to them and attack them for stolen valor. The young AF Airman on this base have a history of being... energetic  ;)

What base?

Perhaps the base that Boise Composite Squadron (ID-073) meets on:  Gowen Field Air National Guard Base

Just a stab in the dark.

And I was supposed to know this how?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: SarDragon on March 03, 2016, 08:29:18 AM
Quote from: Goblin on March 03, 2016, 05:46:30 AM

Quote from: LSThiker on March 03, 2016, 04:29:02 AM
Quote from: Goblin on March 03, 2016, 04:12:00 AM

Quote from: SamuelRosinsky on March 03, 2016, 01:57:37 AM
We have a USAF 2nd Lt who told his airman that if they see anyone around base wearing ABU's with tapes that say "Civil Air Patrol" to not go up to them and attack them for stolen valor. The young AF Airman on this base have a history of being... energetic  ;)

What base?

Perhaps the base that Boise Composite Squadron (ID-073) meets on:  Gowen Field Air National Guard Base

Just a stab in the dark.

And I was supposed to know this how?

Your Google Foo is very weak. Sam's unit is listed right on his posts, and a very quick search for CAP ID-073 show us as quickly that it is the unit ID for Boise Composite Squadron. Further investigation reveals that they meet at Gowen Field Air National Guard Base, in Boise.

Quote from: SamuelRosinsky on March 03, 2016, 05:09:42 AM
Quote from: RogueLeader on March 03, 2016, 04:50:03 AM
I would have guessed Mountain Home AFB. But that works too.

Plot Twist. Mountain Home AFB and Gowen Field are both correct.  >:D

For Sam, how so? The two airfields are an hour apart.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Гугл переводчик on March 03, 2016, 12:47:18 PM
The LT lives and works at Mountain Home, but also recently did some work on Gowen
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: jeders on March 03, 2016, 02:41:55 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on March 03, 2016, 03:11:40 AM
Quote from: SamuelRosinsky on March 03, 2016, 01:57:37 AM
We have a USAF 2nd Lt who told his airman that if they see anyone around base wearing ABU's with tapes that say "Civil Air Patrol" to not go up to them and attack them for stolen valor. The young AF Airman on this base have a history of being... energetic  ;)
You have airmen who listened to 2nd Lts?   >:D

They're still young and don't know any better.  >:D
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: goblin on March 03, 2016, 03:06:34 PM

Quote from: SarDragon on March 03, 2016, 08:29:18 AM
Quote from: Goblin on March 03, 2016, 05:46:30 AM

Quote from: LSThiker on March 03, 2016, 04:29:02 AM
Quote from: Goblin on March 03, 2016, 04:12:00 AM

Quote from: SamuelRosinsky on March 03, 2016, 01:57:37 AM
We have a USAF 2nd Lt who told his airman that if they see anyone around base wearing ABU's with tapes that say "Civil Air Patrol" to not go up to them and attack them for stolen valor. The young AF Airman on this base have a history of being... energetic  ;)

What base?

Perhaps the base that Boise Composite Squadron (ID-073) meets on:  Gowen Field Air National Guard Base

Just a stab in the dark.

And I was supposed to know this how?

Your Google Foo is very weak. Sam's unit is listed right on his posts, and a very quick search for CAP ID-073 show us as quickly that it is the unit ID for Boise Composite Squadron. Further investigation reveals that they meet at Gowen Field Air National Guard Base, in Boise.

Quote from: SamuelRosinsky on March 03, 2016, 05:09:42 AM
Quote from: RogueLeader on March 03, 2016, 04:50:03 AM
I would have guessed Mountain Home AFB. But that works too.

Plot Twist. Mountain Home AFB and Gowen Field are both correct.  >:D

For Sam, how so? The two airfields are an hour apart.

None of that shows up on Tapatalk app, FYI
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: AirAux on March 03, 2016, 05:46:18 PM
Hey, did no one get the e-mail from Gen Vasquez yesterday?  Dark blue and silver thread for all nape tapes, etc, also, black boots, not green ones.  Oh and we will be going to dark blue and silver thread for current BDU's and BBDU's.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: arajca on March 03, 2016, 05:51:59 PM
What email?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: winterg on March 03, 2016, 05:52:39 PM
Yeah, I think Starfleet mentioned it yesterday.  I got the email about the same time he posted. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: RogueLeader on March 03, 2016, 06:46:06 PM
I didn't get one from the CAP/CC but I did get one front the national uniform board.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Pace on March 03, 2016, 07:15:47 PM
Quote from: RogueLeader on March 03, 2016, 06:46:06 PM
I didn't get one from the CAP/CC but I did get one front the national uniform board.
Care to share with the peanut gallery?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: THRAWN on March 03, 2016, 07:18:51 PM
Quote from: Pace on March 03, 2016, 07:15:47 PM
Quote from: RogueLeader on March 03, 2016, 06:46:06 PM
I didn't get one from the CAP/CC but I did get one front the national uniform board.
Care to share with the peanut gallery?

It'd be nice if someone could post the message for those of us outside the circle of trust...
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: winterg on March 03, 2016, 07:20:09 PM
Looks like I misspoke, the email I got was from the NUC, not CAP/CC. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Pace on March 03, 2016, 07:22:00 PM
Quote from: winterg on March 03, 2016, 07:20:09 PM
Looks like I misspoke, the email I got was from the NUC, not CAP/CC.
Hey, maybe Guite will post it!??
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: winterg on March 03, 2016, 07:24:50 PM
Quote from: Pace on March 03, 2016, 07:22:00 PM
Quote from: winterg on March 03, 2016, 07:20:09 PM
Looks like I misspoke, the email I got was from the NUC, not CAP/CC.
Hey, maybe Guite will post it!??
Here it is. 

Fellow members of the Civil Air Patrol:

The idea of Civil Air Patrol transitioning their Air Force style utility uniform from the BDU to the ABU, has been a topic of discussion in both official and unofficial circles for some time.

Previously, the decision was made to not pursue the ABU for CAP because the Air Force was considering phasing out the ABU. Recently, we were informed that the Air Force has no intention of phasing out the ABU in the near future. At that time, the decision was made to examine the possibility of CAP transitioning to the ABU, due to the increase in issues with BDU availability in some parts of the country. The National Uniform Committee was tasked with examining the issue.

It's important to remember that the Air Force Instruction governing our wear of the Air Force Uniform requires that our uniforms be easily distinguishable from Air Force Uniforms at a distance and at low light. This is accomplished through the use of distinctive insignia, name tapes, etc.

The National Uniform Committee, in coordination with CAP-USAF recommended that CAP ask for Air Force approval to wear the ABU with the following distinguishing modifications:

1.  Name and CAP tapes, aviation and specialty badges would be on a Navy Blue background with silver thread. These colors would be the same as currently in use on the NCO stripes. The NUC examined the possibility of using the ABU tapes. Because our adult members wear the same grade insignia as Air Force Officers, use of the ABU tapes was not considered to be distinguishable in accordance to the AFI. AFJROTC and AFROTC wear the ABU tapes, but they do not wear officer grade insignia. Wing, Unit, and Activity patches would be optional under the proposal.

2.  Black boots. There were many factors in our recommendation to retain the black boots. The first was cost to the membership. Many members already own black boots. Also, black boots are still available at reasonable prices commercially. The green boots cost over $100. Another consideration was asking members to buy a second pair of boots if they chose to wear other uniform combinations. The corporate (blue) uniform has black boots, as do the flight duty uniforms.  The final reason was the black boots provide a further distinguishing factor to the uniform.

Our final recommendation was to phase out the ultramarine blue tapes and insignia, and convert to the navy blue and silver tapes. These tapes better match the corporate BDU's and will eliminate the confusion caused by having two different color tapes.

As you have undoubtedly heard by now, our National Commander, Maj Gen Joseph Vazquez, sought the opinion of the CAP Command Council regarding the proposed changes. The Command Council overwhelmingly supported the change to the ABU. The proposal now goes to the Air Force for approval. As a reminder, the ABU Uniform for CAP is NOT approved yet.

The Command Council also recommended phasing out the ultramarine tapes in favor of the navy blue tapes on the Corporate BDU.

I hope this has answered your questions about how we arrived at our recommendations. If you have any further questions, I encourage you to address them with your chain of command. They have the most up to date information. Thank you.

Colonel Richard J. Greenwood, CAP
Chair, National Uniform Committee
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Pace on March 03, 2016, 07:29:05 PM
Thank you!
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: THRAWN on March 03, 2016, 07:30:24 PM
Thankee-sai...
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on March 03, 2016, 07:33:19 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on March 03, 2016, 07:30:24 PM
Thankee-sai...

Say thankee big big! May it do ya fine.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: THRAWN on March 03, 2016, 07:36:09 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on March 03, 2016, 07:33:19 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on March 03, 2016, 07:30:24 PM
Thankee-sai...

Say thankee big big! May it do ya fine.

Hile, gunslinger! Long days and pleasant nights...
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on March 03, 2016, 07:44:52 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on March 03, 2016, 07:36:09 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on March 03, 2016, 07:33:19 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on March 03, 2016, 07:30:24 PM
Thankee-sai...

Say thankee big big! May it do ya fine.

Hile, gunslinger! Long days and pleasant nights...

May you have twice the number.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: THRAWN on March 03, 2016, 07:47:38 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on March 03, 2016, 07:44:52 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on March 03, 2016, 07:36:09 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on March 03, 2016, 07:33:19 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on March 03, 2016, 07:30:24 PM
Thankee-sai...

Say thankee big big! May it do ya fine.

Hile, gunslinger! Long days and pleasant nights...

May you have twice the number.

And now that we have hijacked the thread, gotta run...Oy is yapping to be let out...
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: calebtornado12 on March 04, 2016, 12:47:11 AM
So here's my big question now... We know that all the officer ranks will be the navy blue and silver color, and worn on the collar, but now my question is:

1. What will the NCO ranks look like?

2. Where will they be located on the uniform?

Just hadn't seen any talk about that so I'm pretty curious about it.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: lordmonar on March 04, 2016, 12:48:48 AM
They will look like they do now.
They will be located on the sleeves....just like they do now.

Nothing to talk about....because nothing is going to change in that respect.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: calebtornado12 on March 04, 2016, 12:51:37 AM
Well Currently on the BDUs, the rank is worn on the collar for NCOs as well as officers, so how would they look on a sleeve?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: calebtornado12 on March 04, 2016, 12:52:21 AM
they aren't currently worn on sleeves for cadets, only collars. And red, white and blue insignia on the ABU would look pretty stupid.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: lordmonar on March 04, 2016, 12:58:01 AM
Oh.....you mean CADET insignia.

I would assume no change there either.

As for it looking stupid.....if you have a suggestion please send it up the chain of command for consideration by the National Uniform Board.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: calebtornado12 on March 04, 2016, 01:01:45 AM
Do we know of any discussion from the NUB about it? because that might be a pretty big topic soon.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: lordmonar on March 04, 2016, 01:16:08 AM
Quote from: calebtornado12 on March 04, 2016, 01:01:45 AM
Do we know of any discussion from the NUB about it? because that might be a pretty big topic soon.
Not directly.  But like I said....I assume that no changes to how the rank is worn by anyone.....just the color of the uniform and the background of the name tapes, badges and officer rank.

Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: JeffDG on March 04, 2016, 02:41:38 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on March 04, 2016, 01:16:08 AM
Quote from: calebtornado12 on March 04, 2016, 01:01:45 AM
Do we know of any discussion from the NUB about it? because that might be a pretty big topic soon.
Not directly.  But like I said....I assume that no changes to how the rank is worn by anyone.....just the color of the uniform and the background of the name tapes, badges and officer rank.
That's my impression as well, and they actually took the colours (blue/silver) for the nametapes and insignia from the CAP NCO stripes.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on March 04, 2016, 03:58:23 AM
Quote from: calebtornado12 on March 04, 2016, 01:01:45 AM
Do we know of any discussion from the NUB about it? because that might be a pretty big topic soon.

No it won't be. The cadet insignia have been through plenty of uniforms, and work just fine.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: slimshady on March 04, 2016, 08:10:18 PM
http://capmembers.bmetrack.com/c/v?e=8F6F84&c=2B380&l=E78D192&email=ErFmr6i5SC4O8vRHSEMluDciHg%2FVbFy1&relid=AC100142
Title: Re: ABU,S Finally coming pending USAF Approval
Post by: THRAWN on March 04, 2016, 08:14:41 PM
We needed another thread on this?

PACE? Little help?
Title: Re: ABU,S Finally coming pending USAF Approval
Post by: goblin on March 04, 2016, 08:14:50 PM
Thank you for being the driving force behind this change
Title: Re: ABU,S Finally coming pending USAF Approval
Post by: Pace on March 04, 2016, 08:16:45 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on March 04, 2016, 08:14:41 PM
We needed another thread on this?

PACE? Little help?
Done. No need to start a new thread when we have this one.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: RogueLeader on March 04, 2016, 08:45:35 PM
Not when that same email was posted yesterday . . .
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: billford1 on March 06, 2016, 08:52:17 PM
It's going to be good when the AF and CAP finally go forward with the ABU. I'll be interested how quickly the ABU can be provided Cadets by CAP in various sizes. Some Cadets can afford to buy their own uniforms and some can't.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: LSThiker on March 06, 2016, 09:32:35 PM
Quote from: billford1 on March 06, 2016, 08:52:17 PM
It's going to be good when the AF and CAP finally go forward with the ABU. I'll be interested how quickly the ABU can be provided Cadets by CAP in various sizes. Some Cadets can afford to buy their own uniforms and some can't.

How ever fast the associated units can acquire the ABUs for issue to cadets from various non-CAP sources.  Even with BDUs, CAP does not provide those to cadets.  The cadet must either get them from the unit supply or purchase them voluntarily.

Nevertheless, I am curious what the phase-in/phase-out time frame will be. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on March 06, 2016, 09:36:38 PM
Quote from: LSThiker on March 06, 2016, 09:32:35 PM
Quote from: billford1 on March 06, 2016, 08:52:17 PM
It's going to be good when the AF and CAP finally go forward with the ABU. I'll be interested how quickly the ABU can be provided Cadets by CAP in various sizes. Some Cadets can afford to buy their own uniforms and some can't.

How ever fast the associated units can acquire the ABUs for issue to cadets from various non-CAP sources.  Even with BDUs, CAP does not provide those to cadets.  The cadet must either get them from the unit supply or purchase them voluntarily.

Nevertheless, I am curious what the phase-in/phase-out time frame will be.

Regardless of phase in time, ebay will sell out about 20 seconds after the authorization hits.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: abdsp51 on March 06, 2016, 09:41:24 PM
Still has to be approved so we'll see.  And I'm sure some units have a stockpile of uniforms hidden away somewhere. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on March 07, 2016, 02:23:45 AM
I'm sure we're looking at a 3-5 year timeline. Enough for most cadets to be in and out of the program.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: LSThiker on March 07, 2016, 02:38:28 AM
Quote from: Garibaldi on March 06, 2016, 09:36:38 PM
Regardless of phase in time, ebay will sell out about 20 seconds after the authorization hits.

I am sure there are some members that have already bought them the instant they read the ABU email. 

On a personal note, I will probably skip on purchasing the ABUs and just go full corporate.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on March 07, 2016, 03:07:55 AM

Quote from: LSThiker on March 07, 2016, 02:38:28 AM
I am sure there are some members that have already bought them the instant they read the ABU email.

I bought mine in 2013 knowing the proposal was headed to HAF. Then, in 2014, the request was yanked at basically the 11th hour. Into the footlocker they went.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: lordmonar on March 07, 2016, 05:30:45 AM
I saved mine from 2008 know that we would get to wear them.  ;D
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: USAFRiggerGuy on March 07, 2016, 02:57:04 PM
I also have 3 sets of ABUs and the sage boots ready to be worn from my time in the Air Force. Although they do seem a little tighter than when I last wore them in 2012! [emoji13]
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: kwe1009 on March 07, 2016, 03:40:38 PM
Quote from: USAFRiggerGuy on March 07, 2016, 02:57:04 PM
I also have 3 sets of ABUs and the sage boots ready to be worn from my time in the Air Force. Although they do seem a little tighter than when I last wore them in 2012! [emoji13]

I have learned that Air Force uniforms tend to shrink after a person leaves the service.  I'm not sure how that happens but all of my AF uniforms shrank!
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: TheSkyHornet on March 07, 2016, 03:41:43 PM
Quote from: kwe1009 on March 07, 2016, 03:40:38 PM
Quote from: USAFRiggerGuy on March 07, 2016, 02:57:04 PM
I also have 3 sets of ABUs and the sage boots ready to be worn from my time in the Air Force. Although they do seem a little tighter than when I last wore them in 2012! [emoji13]

I have learned that Air Force uniforms tend to shrink after a person leaves the service.  I'm not sure how that happens but all of my AF uniforms shrank!

Definitely gremlins...
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: kwe1009 on March 07, 2016, 03:46:48 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on March 07, 2016, 02:23:45 AM
I'm sure we're looking at a 3-5 year timeline. Enough for most cadets to be in and out of the program.

When the Air Force went to ABUs I think it was like a 5 phase in period.  I would imagine the phase in period for CAP might be even longer.  We will have to wait and see.  I guess that I am one of the minority that isn't looking forward to ABUs.  I have never liked them.

Lastly, for those complaining about the black boots and black t-shirts with the ABU, the Air Force wore those with DCUs for many years. Not everyone who deployed was issued desert tan boots. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on March 07, 2016, 04:11:47 PM
Quote from: kwe1009 on March 07, 2016, 03:46:48 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on March 07, 2016, 02:23:45 AM
I'm sure we're looking at a 3-5 year timeline. Enough for most cadets to be in and out of the program.

When the Air Force went to ABUs I think it was like a 5 phase in period.  I would imagine the phase in period for CAP might be even longer.  We will have to wait and see.  I guess that I am one of the minority that isn't looking forward to ABUs.  I have never liked them.

Lastly, for those complaining about the black boots and black t-shirts with the ABU, the Air Force wore those with DCUs for many years. Not everyone who deployed was issued desert tan boots.


I'm basing 3 years on optimistic projections, and 5 years on "reasonable". As NIN posted regarding the BDU transition, most people changed over from the Green suits within a year.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on March 07, 2016, 04:34:57 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on March 07, 2016, 04:11:47 PM
I'm basing 3 years on optimistic projections, and 5 years on "reasonable". As NIN posted regarding the BDU transition, most people changed over from the Green suits within a year.

I think you'll see a 3-ish year phase in.

This idea that you can buy uniforms and wear them for 7-10 years is a pipe dream.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Storm Chaser on March 07, 2016, 05:09:13 PM
Because of the way ABUs are sized (actual chest and waist size as opposed to the Small, Medium, Large, etc. range sizes of BDUs), I fear many members will be wearing ABUs that are either a size too small or too big.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: THRAWN on March 07, 2016, 05:12:02 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on March 07, 2016, 05:09:13 PM
Because of the way ABUs are sized (actual chest and waist size as opposed to the Small, Medium, Large, etc. range sizes of BDUs), I fear many members will be wearing ABUs that are either a size too small or too big.

Kind of like they do now with BDUs. And blues. And flight suits. And GWs....
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on March 07, 2016, 05:15:55 PM
Phase-in really has no bearing on about 83% of the membership. Cadets have their fingers poised over the "submit order" button on various websites right as we speak. Some members already have ABUs from AD or when CAP initially was thinking of it. And there are members like me who need to lose a little weight before thinking about squeezing into a new uniform, so that will take some time. For me, about four months or so.

There will be some members that will absolutely not change to ABUs until the last minute for various reasons. "I just bought a new set of BDUs", "My BDUs are perfectly serviceable, so I'll wait until I have to start repairing them", "I hate the blasted things, I'll just keep these since they will be the new corporate uniform. Oh, wait, they don't look like crap? I'll get them, but I'll wait a bit".

Then we have to consider the availability spectrum. Some units will not be able to get them at a surplus shop or DRMO, or don't have access to an AF base to get them. Evilbay may have some but they usually run in the medium sizes.

I'm just spitballing here.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Storm Chaser on March 07, 2016, 05:29:42 PM

Quote from: THRAWN on March 07, 2016, 05:12:02 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on March 07, 2016, 05:09:13 PM
Because of the way ABUs are sized (actual chest and waist size as opposed to the Small, Medium, Large, etc. range sizes of BDUs), I fear many members will be wearing ABUs that are either a size too small or too big.

Kind of like they do now with BDUs. And blues. And flight suits. And GWs....

Kind of, but worse. The BDU sizing allows for some wiggle room that the ABU doesn't offer.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Holding Pattern on March 07, 2016, 05:41:27 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on March 07, 2016, 05:09:13 PM
Because of the way ABUs are sized (actual chest and waist size as opposed to the Small, Medium, Large, etc. range sizes of BDUs), I fear many members will be wearing ABUs that are either a size too small or too big.

I thought those were the 2 approved military sizes for issuing uniforms?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on March 07, 2016, 05:56:51 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on March 07, 2016, 05:29:42 PM

Quote from: THRAWN on March 07, 2016, 05:12:02 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on March 07, 2016, 05:09:13 PM
Because of the way ABUs are sized (actual chest and waist size as opposed to the Small, Medium, Large, etc. range sizes of BDUs), I fear many members will be wearing ABUs that are either a size too small or too big.

Kind of like they do now with BDUs. And blues. And flight suits. And GWs....

Kind of, but worse. The BDU sizing allows for some wiggle room that the ABU doesn't offer.

I think the point was that some people don't fit into the uniforms regardless of wiggle room
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: vorteks on March 07, 2016, 06:05:45 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on March 07, 2016, 05:12:02 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on March 07, 2016, 05:09:13 PM
Because of the way ABUs are sized (actual chest and waist size as opposed to the Small, Medium, Large, etc. range sizes of BDUs), I fear many members will be wearing ABUs that are either a size too small or too big.

Kind of like they do now with BDUs. And blues. And flight suits. And GWs....

:-X
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on March 07, 2016, 06:50:06 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on March 07, 2016, 05:15:55 PM
Phase-in really has no bearing on about 83% of the membership. Cadets have their fingers poised over the "submit order" button on various websites right as we speak. Some members already have ABUs from AD or when CAP initially was thinking of it. And there are members like me who need to lose a little weight before thinking about squeezing into a new uniform, so that will take some time. For me, about four months or so.

There will be some members that will absolutely not change to ABUs until the last minute for various reasons. "I just bought a new set of BDUs", "My BDUs are perfectly serviceable, so I'll wait until I have to start repairing them", "I hate the blasted things, I'll just keep these since they will be the new corporate uniform. Oh, wait, they don't look like crap? I'll get them, but I'll wait a bit".

Then we have to consider the availability spectrum. Some units will not be able to get them at a surplus shop or DRMO, or don't have access to an AF base to get them. Evilbay may have some but they usually run in the medium sizes.

I'm just spitballing here.


I'm about 20lbs into my weight loss. Minimum 8 months or so until I'm within the CAP allowance, but realistically, if it comes to it, I may hold off until my BBDUs are worn down, and I hit "maintenance" weight. Basically, I'm thinking 2 years out, maybe longer if BBDUs give out before the weight does. It sure is a long road on the downward trend.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: The CyBorg is destroyed on March 07, 2016, 09:48:38 PM
Quote from: kwe1009 on March 07, 2016, 03:40:38 PM
Quote from: USAFRiggerGuy on March 07, 2016, 02:57:04 PM
I also have 3 sets of ABUs and the sage boots ready to be worn from my time in the Air Force. Although they do seem a little tighter than when I last wore them in 2012! [emoji13]

I have learned that Air Force uniforms tend to shrink after a person leaves the service.  I'm not sure how that happens but all of my AF uniforms shrank!

My Tony Nelson uniform hanging in my closet will soon only be fit for G.I. Joe figures.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Гугл переводчик on March 07, 2016, 10:08:23 PM
(http://m.imgur.com/A66hlYi)


http://m.imgur.com/A66hlYi (http://m.imgur.com/A66hlYi)

They almost look black in this picture.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on March 07, 2016, 10:15:48 PM
Quote from: SamuelRosinsky on March 07, 2016, 10:08:23 PM
(http://m.imgur.com/A66hlYi)


http://m.imgur.com/A66hlYi (http://m.imgur.com/A66hlYi)

They almost look black in this picture.

As I said over here: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=20795.msg381275#msg381275 (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=20795.msg381275#msg381275)

Quote[...]but we can look back in the deep dark recesses here and find whole threads literally eviscerating unsuspecting people for perceived slights seen in photos, things like the color of the material on a badge or the alignment of their insignia when it was likely some kind of trick of lighting or camera artifact caused by an angle or something.

The lighting in that photo is suspect at best.  If you were looking at something more white balanced, etc, I'd say that we're getting a true color representation, but we're not.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Гугл переводчик on March 07, 2016, 10:49:38 PM
My apologies, didn't see that post
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: PHall on March 08, 2016, 01:39:55 AM
IIRC, the phase in time when we went from Fatigues to BDU's was 3 years.
Most cadets were wearing BDU's within 90 days.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Brit_in_CAP on March 08, 2016, 01:49:43 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on March 07, 2016, 05:15:55 PM
Phase-in really has no bearing on about 83% of the membership. Cadets have their fingers poised over the "submit order" button on various websites right as we speak. Some members already have ABUs from AD or when CAP initially was thinking of it.
Not here.  Most, if not all, of my cadets are poised over the 'save money first' button as Mom and Dad aren't paying, especially the ones who bought BDUs fairly recently.  Likewise most of the SM since none of us have the uniform from prior service.  Obviously YMMV and I'm sure you're right about the cadets in many squadrons.  I truly wish it were true for mine!   :'(

Quote from: Garibaldi on March 07, 2016, 05:15:55 PM
There will be some members that will absolutely not change to ABUs until the last minute for various reasons. "I just bought a new set of BDUs", "My BDUs are perfectly serviceable, so I'll wait until I have to start repairing them", "I hate the blasted things, I'll just keep these since they will be the new corporate uniform. Oh, wait, they don't look like crap? I'll get them, but I'll wait a bit".


:)  Indeed, there's always that member who'll take it to the wire and beyond.... >:D

Quote from: Garibaldi on March 07, 2016, 05:15:55 PM

Then we have to consider the availability spectrum. Some units will not be able to get them at a surplus shop or DRMO, or don't have access to an AF base to get them. Evilbay may have some but they usually run in the medium sizes.

Right...and there's the real problem, finding them in cadet sizes.  From what other people have written, I can see that being a serious issue.

Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on March 08, 2016, 04:03:17 PM
Quote from: Brit_in_CAP on March 08, 2016, 01:49:43 PM
Right...and there's the real problem, finding them in cadet sizes.  From what other people have written, I can see that being a serious issue.

More or less its a serious issue already with BDUs.

No matter how much we want it to be, these:
(http://cdn3.volusion.com/agfqr.qmuxr/v/vspfiles/photos/PRP-F572008320-2.jpg)

are not these:
(http://airsofttm.wz.cz/zakladni.jpg)

So technically, if you put a small, small cadet in the former-type "BDUs" you're really just creating a Halloween Costume.

Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Storm Chaser on March 08, 2016, 04:28:06 PM

Quote from: NIN on March 08, 2016, 04:03:17 PM
Quote from: Brit_in_CAP on March 08, 2016, 01:49:43 PM
Right...and there's the real problem, finding them in cadet sizes.  From what other people have written, I can see that being a serious issue.

More or less its a serious issue already with BDUs.

No matter how much we want it to be, these:
(http://cdn3.volusion.com/agfqr.qmuxr/v/vspfiles/photos/PRP-F572008320-2.jpg)

are not these:
(http://airsofttm.wz.cz/zakladni.jpg)

So technically, if you put a small, small cadet in the former-type "BDUs" you're really just creating a Halloween Costume.

I've been able to find real BDU-style uniforms in extra small sizes, but at a much higher price.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on March 08, 2016, 04:32:07 PM
Yeah, the extra small short bdus are quite hard to find. Like unicorns.

Many years ago, my group Supply Officer scored an entire room full of Extra Small Short jungle fatigue uniforms, still in the waxed cardboard shipping boxes. I kind of suspect they were leftovers that were intended to be shipped to Southeast Asia prior to 1975.

He had probably 500 sets of uniforms in the supply room and refused to issue any of them out. Would have been nice to find a similar stash of BDUs.

Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Storm Chaser on March 08, 2016, 05:06:42 PM
You can get the smaller BDU sizes here:

http://shop.youngmarinesbx.com/BDU-Youth-Military-Spec-Blouse-Shirt-NO-BUTTONS-SHOWING-6001.htm;jsessionid=09079485B5E14442880BB69BC333C0A2.m1plqscsfapp03 (http://shop.youngmarinesbx.com/BDU-Youth-Military-Spec-Blouse-Shirt-NO-BUTTONS-SHOWING-6001.htm;jsessionid=09079485B5E14442880BB69BC333C0A2.m1plqscsfapp03)

Unfortunately, these BDUs tend to fade faster than government issue or similar BDUs.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: DesertRat on March 08, 2016, 05:08:15 PM
So, last night at our Squadron meeting, an SM is spouting about how we "are going to start wearing ABU's." OK Fine. I like my beard, so I wear BBDU's anyway. But why do people jump into announcing things like this when the bosses who make decisions have not done it yet?

Misinformation and rumor don't do us any good. Now we will have to field parent questions about uniform purchases and more expense etc, that could have waited until we have an actual directive. Right now, we have to give them nebulous answers. *headache*

All I hope is that I can donate a bit of cash to the squadron and buy those BDU's for pennies on the dollar; personally love the things!
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: goblin on March 08, 2016, 05:31:09 PM

Quote from: DesertRat on March 08, 2016, 05:08:15 PMBut why do people jump into announcing things like this when the bosses who make decisions have not done it yet?

#TotalForce
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on March 08, 2016, 05:44:37 PM
Quote from: Goblin on March 08, 2016, 05:31:09 PM

Quote from: DesertRat on March 08, 2016, 05:08:15 PMBut why do people jump into announcing things like this when the bosses who make decisions have not done it yet?

#TotalForce

In an org such as ours, a lot of people want to think they are "in the know" and think their position, grade, or longevity will bear their thinking out. Personally, until COL Greenwood, who is also my Wing CC, announces something solid, I will entertain no conflicting rumor, innuendo, information, or misinformation. My source is solid, I trust him imminently, and unless it comes from him DIRECTLY, it's a no-go. Period.

People spreading rumors like this are doing more of a disservice than they can know. I bet within 3 weeks there will be photos circulating on Facebook or Twitgram or Instaface or whatever with cadets in ABUs, and they're going to get their little hearts broken when someone comes down on them and tells them to go back to BDUs. "But...muh unit commander said we could..." Nope. Cite me the ICL, or formal announcement, or take them off.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Spam on March 08, 2016, 06:02:35 PM
Garibaldi, as YOUR unit commander, I'm saying, no we cant - yet.

We never will (you and I) unless we lose some weight, and that holds for the other couple of guys in the unit whom I've told to get out of USAF style this past year. I am amazed at the large blind spots some fellow officers have regarding how they think they are going to cram their fatness into blues, and depressed at seeing it in fellow staffers and commanders whom I'd expect to set the pace. I was very depressed driving home from Commanders Call this SAT, which I attended in the polo shirt and the "Revenant Bear Hide" fuzzy black jacket (and where I was criticized twice by fellow fat commanders for wearing this, in lieu of USAF blues).

Seems to me the "ABU Wear Test" really should have another component:  senior leadership holding ALL levels accountable for "testing" them selves for fitness to "wear"...


V/R
Spam

Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on March 08, 2016, 07:21:15 PM
Quote from: Spam on March 08, 2016, 06:02:35 PM
Garibaldi, as YOUR unit commander, I'm saying, no we cant - yet.

We never will (you and I) unless we lose some weight, and that holds for the other couple of guys in the unit whom I've told to get out of USAF style this past year. I am amazed at the large blind spots some fellow officers have regarding how they think they are going to cram their fatness into blues, and depressed at seeing it in fellow staffers and commanders whom I'd expect to set the pace. I was very depressed driving home from Commanders Call this SAT, which I attended in the polo shirt and the "Revenant Bear Hide" fuzzy black jacket (and where I was criticized twice by fellow fat commanders for wearing this, in lieu of USAF blues).

Seems to me the "ABU Wear Test" really should have another component:  senior leadership holding ALL levels accountable for "testing" them selves for fitness to "wear"...


V/R
Spam

It flows downhill, sir.  This is why I hung up the BDUs except for mission critical...missions. Polo/tactical slacks for me until the 40 pounds I want to lose are gone for good. Perhaps we can set the tone...
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: kwe1009 on March 08, 2016, 07:35:44 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on March 08, 2016, 05:44:37 PM
Quote from: Goblin on March 08, 2016, 05:31:09 PM

Quote from: DesertRat on March 08, 2016, 05:08:15 PMBut why do people jump into announcing things like this when the bosses who make decisions have not done it yet?

#TotalForce

In an org such as ours, a lot of people want to think they are "in the know" and think their position, grade, or longevity will bear their thinking out. Personally, until COL Greenwood, who is also my Wing CC, announces something solid, I will entertain no conflicting rumor, innuendo, information, or misinformation. My source is solid, I trust him imminently, and unless it comes from him DIRECTLY, it's a no-go. Period.

People spreading rumors like this are doing more of a disservice than they can know. I bet within 3 weeks there will be photos circulating on Facebook or Twitgram or Instaface or whatever with cadets in ABUs, and they're going to get their little hearts broken when someone comes down on them and tells them to go back to BDUs. "But...muh unit commander said we could..." Nope. Cite me the ICL, or formal announcement, or take them off.

You are absolutely correct.  The funny thing is that exactly how many CAP directives are sent through the rumor mill for dissemination to the masses instead of official channels?  I am pretty positive that any change in uniform direction will be sent through official channels to everyone, not just an email to Squadron Commander Joe.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: vorteks on March 08, 2016, 07:39:18 PM
Quote from: Spam on March 08, 2016, 06:02:35 PM
... I am amazed at the large blind spots some fellow officers have regarding how they think they are going to cram their fatness into blues, and depressed at seeing it in fellow staffers and commanders whom I'd expect to set the pace. I was very depressed driving home from Commanders Call this SAT, which I attended in the polo shirt and the "Revenant Bear Hide" fuzzy black jacket (and where I was criticized twice by fellow fat commanders for wearing this, in lieu of USAF blues).

Expect JeffDG and others to express their moral outrage at that remark despite its veracity...
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Spam on March 09, 2016, 12:22:32 AM
Well, someone may bring up the Respect core value, sure. It is a valid issue, and we should keep it in mind, no argument here. I need to clarify that I don't think most of the folks wearing in contravention are intentionally disrespecting the uniform. I just think all of us have blind spots, and some of us will simply refuse to admit to ourselves that we're not as thin as we once were in the face of an attractive uniform option (or, an attractive NEW - ABU - uniform option).

Hence, the conflict arises when someone else struggles with pointing out the sensitive truth. Some folks are just no good at sensitive counseling (I'm not that good at it, myself) and there's no really sweet and nice "respectful" way to pop someone's bubble of innocent fantasy to tell them that they're not a recruiting poster in uniform, much less compliant with regs. You must step out of your comfort zone, and bust theirs, to tell them.

Where we go wrong is when we start really enjoying the correcting - in getting a thrill out of doing it like some petty tyrant. THAT is disrespect, and its a disservice equal to allowing members to profane the uniform.


V/R
Spam




Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on March 09, 2016, 12:43:07 AM
A uniform cannot be disrespected as it is not a living thing.

However other uniform users can. Whenever you wear uniforms improperly, you disrespect others. But not the uniform itself...
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Spam on March 09, 2016, 04:47:32 AM
Sure, you can show lack of respect for nonliving things:

4 U.S. Code § 8 - Respect for flag
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/4/8 (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/4/8)

"No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America;"

Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on March 09, 2016, 04:53:27 AM
Like they say, for everything there is an exception... The Flag of the United States is the nonliving thing that proves the exception...
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: PHall on March 09, 2016, 04:59:40 AM
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on March 09, 2016, 04:53:27 AM
Like they say, for everything there is an exception... The Flag of the United States is the nonliving thing that proves the exception...

Keep digging,  the hole's not deep enough yet.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Storm Chaser on March 09, 2016, 05:40:33 AM

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on March 09, 2016, 12:43:07 AM
A uniform cannot be disrespected as it is not a living thing.

However other uniform users can. Whenever you wear uniforms improperly, you disrespect others. But not the uniform itself...

The Air Force uniform means and represents something more mere organizational clothing and anyone who's served knows that.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on March 09, 2016, 06:17:39 AM
Aww man, aren't you gonna let me off easily...?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: stillamarine on March 09, 2016, 03:36:14 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on March 09, 2016, 05:40:33 AM

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on March 09, 2016, 12:43:07 AM
A uniform cannot be disrespected as it is not a living thing.

However other uniform users can. Whenever you wear uniforms improperly, you disrespect others. But not the uniform itself...

The Air Force uniform means and represents something more mere organizational clothing and anyone who's served knows that.

I served. For a fairly good bit of time. Couple combat zones. To me its just clothing. There's a difference between some out of standards CAP member and stolen valor or some other junk that is really disrespecting the uniform. By hey that's me.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on March 09, 2016, 04:14:47 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on March 08, 2016, 07:21:15 PM


It flows downhill, sir.  This is why I hung up the BDUs except for mission critical...missions. Polo/tactical slacks for me until the 40 pounds I want to lose are gone for good. Perhaps we can set the tone...






Huh?


You're either within H/W, or you're not. I too can fit into my old BDUs. Doesn't mean I do, because I'm about 40lbs away from the mark. The solution is BBDUs.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on March 09, 2016, 06:00:20 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on March 09, 2016, 04:14:47 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on March 08, 2016, 07:21:15 PM


It flows downhill, sir.  This is why I hung up the BDUs except for mission critical...missions. Polo/tactical slacks for me until the 40 pounds I want to lose are gone for good. Perhaps we can set the tone...





Huh?


You're either within H/W, or you're not. I too can fit into my old BDUs. Doesn't mean I do, because I'm about 40lbs away from the mark. The solution is BBDUs.
I don't really LOOK like I'm out of compliance, except for the front-mount food storage/dessication unit. I've seen members further out of compliance than me who squeeze into a FDU or BDUs, and I am not going to be one of them anymore. When I've lost sufficient weight, I'll be back to BDUs. Until then, it's polo and tac pants.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on March 09, 2016, 07:03:21 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on March 09, 2016, 06:00:20 PM
I don't really LOOK like I'm out of compliance, except for the front-mount food storage/dessication unit. I've seen members further out of compliance than me who squeeze into a FDU or BDUs, and I am not going to be one of them anymore. When I've lost sufficient weight, I'll be back to BDUs. Until then, it's polo and tac pants.

How many members say "I don't really LOOK out of compliance" or "I carry it well."?

Here, let me raise my hand. 

When I was ~225 lbs, I said that same thing. The hint is: I didn't.

the height/weight standards are a number.  You're x high, you need to weigh less than z weight.

Not "Well, if you don't look out of compliance, you can continue to wear the uniform."

Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Angus on March 09, 2016, 07:30:12 PM
So instead of starting another thread I'll ask my question here.  Why are the ABU discussions kicking up again?  I thought we weren't getting it until you know where freezes over. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on March 09, 2016, 07:32:30 PM
Quote from: Member Who on March 09, 2016, 07:30:12 PM
So instead of starting another thread I'll ask my question here.  Why are the ABU discussions kicking up again?  I thought we weren't getting it until you know where freezes over.

Did you even read the thread?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Angus on March 09, 2016, 07:54:01 PM
Not the whole thing since it dates back to December, I don't have that much time. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on March 09, 2016, 08:05:42 PM
Read it, your question will be answered.

to whet your interest, we MIGHT!
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on March 09, 2016, 08:15:30 PM
Go back to about page 14
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Angus on March 09, 2016, 08:32:22 PM
Quote from: NIN on March 09, 2016, 08:15:30 PM
Go back to about page 14

Thanks that at least makes it a little easier.  So this all kicks up cause of Wikipedia.  Groovy.  While yes there has been wear-testing I still highly doubt we'll get ABU's any time soon if ever.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on March 09, 2016, 08:32:56 PM
Quote from: Member Who on March 09, 2016, 08:32:22 PM
Quote from: NIN on March 09, 2016, 08:15:30 PM
Go back to about page 14

Thanks that at least makes it a little easier.  So this all kicks up cause of Wikipedia.  Groovy.  While yes there has been wear-testing I still highly doubt we'll get ABU's any time soon if ever.


...
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on March 09, 2016, 08:41:37 PM
Quote from: Member Who on March 09, 2016, 08:32:22 PM
Quote from: NIN on March 09, 2016, 08:15:30 PM
Go back to about page 14

Thanks that at least makes it a little easier.  So this all kicks up cause of Wikipedia.  Groovy.  While yes there has been wear-testing I still highly doubt we'll get ABU's any time soon if ever.

Did you actually *read* the thread?

Cuz it sounds like you skimmed it and all you got was "Wikipedia"

Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Al Sayre on March 09, 2016, 08:45:25 PM
Quote from: Member Who on March 09, 2016, 07:30:12 PM
So instead of starting another thread I'll ask my question here.  Why are the ABU discussions kicking up again?  I thought we weren't getting it until you know where freezes over.

The devil has been turning up his thermostat lately...
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: THRAWN on March 09, 2016, 08:45:48 PM
Why take the time to read when all that does it take time away from complaining about not having time to read?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on March 09, 2016, 09:18:22 PM
Not only complaining about "no time to read" but one well-intentioned member will repeat what has been posted earlier...
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on March 09, 2016, 11:07:59 PM
Quote from: NIN on March 09, 2016, 07:03:21 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on March 09, 2016, 06:00:20 PM
I don't really LOOK like I'm out of compliance, except for the front-mount food storage/dessication unit. I've seen members further out of compliance than me who squeeze into a FDU or BDUs, and I am not going to be one of them anymore. When I've lost sufficient weight, I'll be back to BDUs. Until then, it's polo and tac pants.

How many members say "I don't really LOOK out of compliance" or "I carry it well."?

Here, let me raise my hand. 

When I was ~225 lbs, I said that same thing. The hint is: I didn't.

the height/weight standards are a number.  You're x high, you need to weigh less than z weight.

Not "Well, if you don't look out of compliance, you can continue to wear the uniform."

Not sure if you are supporting or refuting my position...all I know is I'm 240 @ 5'7", so the AF style is staying in the closet. Addendum: including missions.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: USACAP on March 10, 2016, 12:27:04 AM
The CAP weight standard is entirely 1 dimensional though.
You can't eyeball me and calculate my bodyfat % nor my weight.
I am ~30lbs over the weight for my height but sit @ 17% bodyfat.
Have never been asked to step on a scale for CAP and never would.
H/W isn't the full measure of how the USAF (or the .mil) computes fitness and bodyfat ...
Unless CAP members take the whole test and comply with all of the Air Force Physical Fitness Requirements ... you rely on 1 screening factor.
I suppose most people who can't "make weight" are just soft around the middle and don't have a 600lb deadlift.

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on March 09, 2016, 04:14:47 PM
You're either within H/W, or you're not.
I too can fit into my old BDUs. Doesn't mean I do, because I'm about 40lbs away from the mark. The solution is BBDUs.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Spaceman3750 on March 10, 2016, 12:36:30 AM

Quote from: USACAP on March 10, 2016, 12:27:04 AM
The CAP weight standard is entirely 1 dimensional though.
You can't eyeball me and calculate my bodyfat % nor my weight.
I am ~30lbs over the weight for my height but sit @ 17% bodyfat.
Have never been asked to step on a scale for CAP and never would.
H/W isn't the full measure of how the USAF (or the .mil) computes fitness and bodyfat ...
Unless CAP members take the whole test and comply with all of the Air Force Physical Fitness Requirements ... you rely on 1 screening factor.
I suppose most people who can't "make weight" are just soft around the middle and don't have a 600lb deadlift.

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on March 09, 2016, 04:14:47 PM
You're either within H/W, or you're not.
I too can fit into my old BDUs. Doesn't mean I do, because I'm about 40lbs away from the mark. The solution is BBDUs.

That's cool, but that's the way the reg is written, and our core value of integrity dictates that you follow the reg, whether or not you think it will be enforced.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Ned on March 10, 2016, 12:42:07 AM
Quote from: USACAP on March 10, 2016, 12:27:04 AM
The CAP weight standard is entirely 1 dimensional though.
Well, to be fair, it is two-dimensional.   8)  (Height and weight)

QuoteYou can't eyeball me and calculate my bodyfat % nor my weight.

Actually, most people can do a fair job in estimating weight.  ("The man that robbed me was about 5-10 and weighed about 185 . . . ")  We do it all the time.  But I certainly agree that it is never going to be precise, and that some people are not very good at estimating weight.

QuoteI am ~30lbs over the weight for my height but sit @ 17% bodyfat.
Have never been asked to step on a scale for CAP and never would.

And if you are wearing corporates, I can't imagine why anyone would ever ask you about your weight, let alone ask you step on a scale.  Maybe I'm missing your point.
QuoteH/W isn't the full measure of how the USAF (or the .mil) computes fitness and bodyfat ...
Unless CAP members take the whole test and comply with all of the Air Force Physical Fitness Requirements ... you rely on 1 screening factor.

Absolutely true.  We don't have calipers, dunk tanks, PT tests, or weight control programs.  We don't have everyone stand around in their underwear twice a year to be weighed and taped.  Absolutely.

But what we do have is a simple, easy to administer H/W screening table approved by our AF colleagues.

Which, as you point out, is what we rely on.

Again, maybe I'm not seeing your point.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Toth on March 10, 2016, 04:21:44 AM
25 pages folks. Go CAPTalk.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: lordmonar on March 10, 2016, 04:39:51 AM
Quote from: Toth on March 10, 2016, 04:21:44 AM
25 pages folks. Go CAPTalk.
And you are adding to the post count.   
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Гугл переводчик on March 10, 2016, 04:54:02 AM
And I'm going to be "That Guy." and talk more about it.  >:D

One of our senior members picked something up on base, and the AF folks told him "Oh, you're with Civil Air Patrol? Here we have something for you!" And proceeds to give him a box of ABU's.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: lordmonar on March 10, 2016, 05:06:25 AM
The Airman's attic at Nellis has been trying to give us ABUs for the last two years.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Paul Creed III on March 10, 2016, 01:22:58 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on March 10, 2016, 05:06:25 AM
The Airman's attic at Nellis has been trying to give us ABUs for the last two years.

Up until a couple months ago, we were getting piles and piles of ABUs left at our office door; I'd just haul them over to our Airman's Attic. The last batch dropped off, we kept in supply.

We just had a Jeep-full of BDUs donated to us from a local AFJROTC who completed their transition to ABUs.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: jeders on March 10, 2016, 01:56:14 PM
Quote from: Toth on March 10, 2016, 04:21:44 AM
25 pages folks. Go CAPTalk.

Only 10 pages by my count, we can do better.  >:D
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: winterg on March 10, 2016, 01:58:25 PM
Quote from: jeders on March 10, 2016, 01:56:14 PM
Quote from: Toth on March 10, 2016, 04:21:44 AM
25 pages folks. Go CAPTalk.

Only 10 pages by my count, we can do better.  >:D
49 pages on TapaTalk.  :)

There's a strange satisfaction when a topic you started goes for this long on CapTalk without getting locked!
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Angus on March 10, 2016, 02:03:10 PM
Quote from: SamuelRosinsky on March 10, 2016, 04:54:02 AM
And I'm going to be "That Guy." and talk more about it.  >:D

One of our senior members picked something up on base, and the AF folks told him "Oh, you're with Civil Air Patrol? Here we have something for you!" And proceeds to give him a box of ABU's.

Hardly proof as you've seen other units have had the same happen to them.  They might just be assuming that we've got the ok to wear them.  I still say Ma Blue won't give it's approval any time soon if ever. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: jeders on March 10, 2016, 02:11:44 PM
Quote from: Member Who on March 10, 2016, 02:03:10 PM
Quote from: SamuelRosinsky on March 10, 2016, 04:54:02 AM
And I'm going to be "That Guy." and talk more about it.  >:D

One of our senior members picked something up on base, and the AF folks told him "Oh, you're with Civil Air Patrol? Here we have something for you!" And proceeds to give him a box of ABU's.

Hardly proof as you've seen other units have had the same happen to them.  They might just be assuming that we've got the ok to wear them.  I still say Ma Blue won't give it's approval any time soon if ever.

Again, have you even read the thread?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Angus on March 10, 2016, 02:18:34 PM
I've read enough there have been wear tests and now it's in the hands of Air Force for final approval.  A wear test doesn't prove that we will be approved to get the uniform.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on March 10, 2016, 02:24:51 PM
Quote from: Member Who on March 10, 2016, 02:18:34 PM
I've read enough there have been wear tests and now it's in the hands of Air Force for final approval.  A wear test doesn't prove that we will be approved to get the uniform.

*DING DING DING* Don Pardo, tell him what he's won!

Well, Pat, he's won a lifetime supply of Rice-a-Roni, that San Francisco treat, a year's supply of Turtle Wax, and for the discriminating gentleman, a three to five year wait for those coveted ABUs. Thank you for playing!
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Chappie on March 10, 2016, 07:02:43 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on March 10, 2016, 02:24:51 PM
Quote from: Member Who on March 10, 2016, 02:18:34 PM
I've read enough there have been wear tests and now it's in the hands of Air Force for final approval.  A wear test doesn't prove that we will be approved to get the uniform.

*DING DING DING* Don Pardo, tell him what he's won!

Well, Pat, he's won a lifetime supply of Rice-a-Roni, that San Francisco treat, a year's supply of Turtle Wax, and for the discriminating gentleman, a three to five year wait for those coveted ABUs. Thank you for playing!

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: almostspaatz on March 10, 2016, 10:17:58 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on March 10, 2016, 02:24:51 PM
Quote from: Member Who on March 10, 2016, 02:18:34 PM
I've read enough there have been wear tests and now it's in the hands of Air Force for final approval.  A wear test doesn't prove that we will be approved to get the uniform.

*DING DING DING* Don Pardo, tell him what he's won!

Well, Pat, he's won a lifetime supply of Rice-a-Roni, that San Francisco treat, a year's supply of Turtle Wax, and for the discriminating gentleman, a three to five year wait for those coveted ABUs. Thank you for playing!

I'm just glad people remember Don Pardo....  :clap:
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: ProdigalJim on March 10, 2016, 10:26:47 PM
Yeah but we forgot the Eskimo Pie...
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Гугл переводчик on March 10, 2016, 10:30:45 PM
Quote from: almostspaatz on March 10, 2016, 10:17:58 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on March 10, 2016, 02:24:51 PM
Quote from: Member Who on March 10, 2016, 02:18:34 PM
I've read enough there have been wear tests and now it's in the hands of Air Force for final approval.  A wear test doesn't prove that we will be approved to get the uniform.

*DING DING DING* Don Pardo, tell him what he's won!

Well, Pat, he's won a lifetime supply of Rice-a-Roni, that San Francisco treat, a year's supply of Turtle Wax, and for the discriminating gentleman, a three to five year wait for those coveted ABUs. Thank you for playing!

I'm just glad people remember Don Pardo....  :clap:

Who?  :angel:
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: winterg on March 10, 2016, 10:32:23 PM
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=don+pardo (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=don+pardo)

:)
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: almostspaatz on March 10, 2016, 10:35:57 PM
"Let me google that for you..."

never gets old  >:D
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: winterg on March 10, 2016, 10:37:50 PM
LMGTFY is my favorite site!
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on March 10, 2016, 10:39:52 PM
STILL does not say anything!

Mentions lots of shows he worked. But no details.

Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on March 11, 2016, 12:02:43 AM
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on March 10, 2016, 10:39:52 PM
STILL does not say anything!

Mentions lots of shows he worked. But no details.

He was the announcer for Saturday Night Live for many years, as well as being the "voice" for many game shows. He had a very distinct delivery and a voice you can't forget. He even appeared in a Weird Al video, " I Lost on Jeopardy".
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: -_adrian_- on March 11, 2016, 07:45:43 PM
Does anyone else think that wearing the black boots looks terrible.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: -_adrian_- on March 11, 2016, 07:49:16 PM
I feel that we should use the sage green boots. The black just looks bad with ABU'S. I know many cadets who have trouble shinning their boots or they just can't keep them shiny. I feel that if we used the sage green boots it would look so much better and make everyone's life a little bit better.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: PHall on March 11, 2016, 07:50:26 PM
You do know that the Green Boots are $100 plus a pair, right?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: vorteks on March 11, 2016, 07:52:13 PM
Quote from: -_adrian_- on March 11, 2016, 07:49:16 PM
I feel that we should use the sage green boots. The black just looks bad with ABU'S. I know many cadets who have trouble shinning their boots or they just can't keep them shiny. I feel that if we used the sage green boots it would look so much better and make everyone's life a little bit better.

That just means they need to try harder.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: -_adrian_- on March 11, 2016, 07:58:15 PM
I figured I would probably get a response like this but it would also save money on shoe shining products. It would also be easier to clean the mud and junk off of them quickly.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: -_adrian_- on March 11, 2016, 08:04:41 PM
Quote from: PHall on March 11, 2016, 07:50:26 PM
You do know that the Green Boots are $100 plus a pair, right?
Yeah so are a decent pair of black boots. I used to buy the cheaper black boots and all of them fell apart. The only ones that held up somewhat were a pair of 5.11 boots. Almost all of them hurt my feet and we're heavy and bulky so I decided to go buy a pair of Nike SFB's and have never looked back. I have no problem spend another 160 on another pair of them in sage green. I understand that others would be more reluctant but 100 dollars on a good pair of boots that protect your feet and keep them comfy dosent seam to far out of the question.(which are a vary important asset to yourself)
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on March 11, 2016, 08:05:13 PM
The uniform (thus far) is what it is.

Who knows: maybe the Air Staff will get the request and look at it and say "Uh, no.  You guys should have the same nametapes and boots" or something like that.

(note: I said "Maybe."  I have zero knowledge of the inner-workings of HAF and the Air Staff when it comes to this kind of thing)

Remember,  we wore ultramarine blue nametags when the Air Force did.  The AF went to dark blue on OD tapes in the 1970s, and we didn't follow suit.

So there is precedence for our uniform wear to be exactly that of the Air Force.

Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: winterg on March 11, 2016, 08:06:06 PM
We should wear blue suede boots to match our name tapes. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: RogueLeader on March 11, 2016, 08:07:08 PM
Quote from: -_adrian_- on March 11, 2016, 07:58:15 PM
I figured I would probably get a response like this but it would also save money on shoe shining products. It would also be easier to clean the mud and junk off of them quickly.

As one that has had both Black shiny boots and non-shiny boots (Army tan boots)  It is easier to fix a cleaning issue with black boots than it is with suede boots.  Trust me, I still have tan boots that are still somewhat red from red clay.  I've had clack boots that you can't tell where they've been.  The polish actually makes it easier to clean than suede- as there are tons of places for dirt mud, etc to hand on.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on March 11, 2016, 08:11:16 PM
Quote from: winterg on March 11, 2016, 08:06:06 PM
We should wear blue suede boots to match our name tapes.

And our CAP song could be by Elvis.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on March 11, 2016, 08:12:55 PM
Quote from: NIN on March 11, 2016, 08:05:13 PM
The uniform (thus far) is what it is.

Who knows: maybe the Air Staff will get the request and look at it and say "Uh, no.  You guys should have the same nametapes and boots" or something like that.

(note: I said "Maybe."  I have zero knowledge of the inner-workings of HAF and the Air Staff when it comes to this kind of thing)

Remember,  we wore ultramarine blue nametags when the Air Force did.  The AF went to dark blue on OD tapes in the 1970s, and we didn't follow suit.

So there is precedence for our uniform wear to be exactly that of the Air Force.

Is is CAP or USAF that wants us to have low-light identifiability?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: -_adrian_- on March 11, 2016, 08:13:04 PM
I have had both too. When I was in JROTC I was on a Raider team and I got my tan boots all kinds of nasty and I have used the same boots in black and the tan suede leather Nike SFB's and every single time the tan ones were so much faster to clean. Even the standard issue boots are so much easier to clean.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: stillamarine on March 11, 2016, 09:14:05 PM
I think I'm the only person in the world that don't care about black/sage boots.

Seriously how hard is it to put polish on and buff it off. A spit shine is not required. I swear the invention of corframs and suede boots is the military version of wimpification. I had a fellow Marine in my academy class and I had to teach him how to shine his boots!!!
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: lordmonar on March 11, 2016, 09:16:02 PM
Quote from: stillamarine on March 11, 2016, 09:14:05 PM
I think I'm the only person in the world that don't care about black/sage boots.

Seriously how hard is it to put polish on and buff it off. A spit shine is not required. I swear the invention of corframs and suede boots is the military version of wimpification. I had a fellow Marine in my academy class and I had to teach him how to shine his boots!!!
You are not the only one.

Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on March 11, 2016, 09:36:24 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on March 11, 2016, 08:12:55 PM
Is is CAP or USAF that wants us to have low-light identifiability?

You tell me.

Here, look in here: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/subtitle-D (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/subtitle-D)
or even here: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/subtitle-D/part-III/chapter-909 (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/subtitle-D/part-III/chapter-909)

No? Hmmm
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Spam on March 11, 2016, 09:43:24 PM
I'm with you too.

Rather than appearance and cool factor, the availability and cost per new member is far more important to me than the boot, speaking as a line commander. I care more about the cost to my cadets who are mowing lawns and sweating at minimum wage to afford their boots than blithely saying, "well, you should just buy a quality boot, and spend another 160 on a GOOD boot". The majority of our people won't use their boots more than a couple hours a week on average, nor do more than small percentage of our members extensively use them in field work (I base that on 30+ years as an active GTM/L/GBD in five Wings in three Regions with five command tours now).

If we could get issue rough side out boots cheap (like via the uniform vouchers), great. If black cheap, great. On polishing, I have MANY other ways to effectively teach the importance of being detail oriented to new cadets and officers.

V/R
Spam


Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: RogueLeader on March 11, 2016, 10:04:49 PM
Quote from: stillamarine on March 11, 2016, 09:14:05 PM
I think I'm the only person in the world that don't care about black/sage boots.

Seriously how hard is it to put polish on and buff it off. A spit shine is not required. I swear the invention of corframs and suede boots is the military version of wimpification. I had a fellow Marine in my academy class and I had to teach him how to shine his boots!!!

No issue for me either.  I just bought a pair of Coyote brown boots, and in just the course of regular wear of about 4 months, they would not be wearable in uniform.  I have a pair of Black boots for about 4 years that, while don't get quite the same level of use, are still completely serviceable.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: lordmonar on March 11, 2016, 10:10:51 PM
Quote from: NIN on March 11, 2016, 09:36:24 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on March 11, 2016, 08:12:55 PM
Is is CAP or USAF that wants us to have low-light identifiability?

You tell me.

Here, look in here: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/subtitle-D (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/subtitle-D)
or even here: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/subtitle-D/part-III/chapter-909 (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/subtitle-D/part-III/chapter-909)

No? Hmmm
Quote from: AFI 10-27011.3.4. CAP  Distinctive  Uniforms  and  Insignia.
The  emblems,  insignia,  and  badges  of  the CAP  Air  Force-style  uniform  will  clearly  identify  an  individual  as  a  CAP  member  at  a
distance and in low-light conditions.  CAP-USAF/CC must approve changes to the CAP Air Force-style  uniform.  CAP  uniforms  must  be sufficiently  different  from  U.S.  Armed  Forces uniforms so that confusion will not occur.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on March 11, 2016, 11:27:23 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on March 11, 2016, 10:10:51 PM
Quote from: NIN on March 11, 2016, 09:36:24 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on March 11, 2016, 08:12:55 PM
Is is CAP or USAF that wants us to have low-light identifiability?

You tell me.

Here, look in here: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/subtitle-D (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/subtitle-D)
or even here: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/subtitle-D/part-III/chapter-909 (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/subtitle-D/part-III/chapter-909)

No? Hmmm
Quote from: AFI 10-27011.3.4. CAP  Distinctive  Uniforms  and  Insignia.
The  emblems,  insignia,  and  badges  of  the CAP  Air  Force-style  uniform  will  clearly  identify  an  individual  as  a  CAP  member  at  a
distance and in low-light conditions.  CAP-USAF/CC must approve changes to the CAP Air Force-style  uniform.  CAP  uniforms  must  be sufficiently  different  from  U.S.  Armed  Forces uniforms so that confusion will not occur.

Zip. Zop. Zooie.  Thankee both. Although the law stuff went over my head.

I think, though, that the ultramarine tapes and insignia set us apart enough. The only other org that uses anything close is the USCG, if I'm not mistaken.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: USACAP on March 11, 2016, 11:30:46 PM
Shining boots is an insane waste of time ...
Form should ALWAYS follow function.
This is, however, an offspring of a military organization.
Sanity rarely reigns in a military bureaucracy.
Is what it is. Have to grin and bear it.

Quote from: stillamarine on March 11, 2016, 09:14:05 PM
I think I'm the only person in the world that don't care about black/sage boots.

Seriously how hard is it to put polish on and buff it off. A spit shine is not required. I swear the invention of corframs and suede boots is the military version of wimpification. I had a fellow Marine in my academy class and I had to teach him how to shine his boots!!!
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on March 12, 2016, 01:08:26 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on March 11, 2016, 10:10:51 PM
Quote from: AFI 10-27011.3.4. CAP  Distinctive  Uniforms  and  Insignia.
The  emblems,  insignia,  and  badges  of  the CAP  Air  Force-style  uniform  will  clearly  identify  an  individual  as  a  CAP  member  at  a
distance and in low-light conditions.  CAP-USAF/CC must approve changes to the CAP Air Force-style  uniform.  CAP  uniforms  must  be sufficiently  different  from  U.S.  Armed  Forces uniforms so that confusion will not occur.

That's where that came from...
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Holding Pattern on March 12, 2016, 01:10:35 AM
Quote from: USACAP on March 11, 2016, 11:30:46 PM
Shining boots is an insane waste of time ...

Lies! I have it on good authority that shining boots "builds character!"

Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on March 12, 2016, 01:47:09 AM
Quote from: NIN on March 12, 2016, 01:08:26 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on March 11, 2016, 10:10:51 PM
Quote from: AFI 10-27011.3.4. CAP  Distinctive  Uniforms  and  Insignia.
The  emblems,  insignia,  and  badges  of  the CAP  Air  Force-style  uniform  will  clearly  identify  an  individual  as  a  CAP  member  at  a
distance and in low-light conditions.  CAP-USAF/CC must approve changes to the CAP Air Force-style  uniform.  CAP  uniforms  must  be sufficiently  different  from  U.S.  Armed  Forces uniforms so that confusion will not occur.

That's where that came from...

:-X :-[
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on March 12, 2016, 02:13:13 AM
Wearing black boots, black tees, and color patches would set this uniform apart from when worn by the Armed Forces...

>:D


Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: PHall on March 12, 2016, 02:44:19 AM
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on March 12, 2016, 02:13:13 AM
Wearing black boots, black tees, and color patches would set this uniform apart from the Armed Forces...

>:D

Actually, it does. And at no additional cost to the members too!
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: SarDragon on March 12, 2016, 04:23:55 AM
Regarding black boots, I still have, and wear, a pair from when I was on active duty. The leather is a little grrr'd here and there, but they still take a decent shine. I doubt that rough out boots would have lasted that long.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: lordmonar on March 12, 2016, 04:35:39 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on March 12, 2016, 04:23:55 AM
Regarding black boots, I still have, and wear, a pair from when I was on active duty. The leather is a little grrr'd here and there, but they still take a decent shine. I doubt that rough out boots would have lasted that long.
I got a pair of ABU boots that I wear almost every day for work.  They are almost 10 years old now....and still great.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: goblin on March 12, 2016, 05:19:26 AM

Quote from: lordmonar on March 12, 2016, 04:35:39 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on March 12, 2016, 04:23:55 AM
Regarding black boots, I still have, and wear, a pair from when I was on active duty. The leather is a little grrr'd here and there, but they still take a decent shine. I doubt that rough out boots would have lasted that long.
I got a pair of ABU boots that I wear almost every day for work.  They are almost 10 years old now....and still great.

I guess it depends how much work you do in them.

I'm on my 4th pair in 5 years
Title: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Storm Chaser on March 12, 2016, 10:45:44 AM
Quote from: PHall on March 12, 2016, 02:44:19 AM
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on March 12, 2016, 02:13:13 AM
Wearing black boots, black tees, and color patches would set this uniform apart from the Armed Forces...

>:D

Actually, it does. And at no additional cost to the members too!

That it does. Although I would argue, why go to ABUs to look more like our parent service just to go out of our way to make our uniform stand out? If we wore corporate blue BDUs there wouldn't be any chance of getting confused with our parent service and members would be able to continue wearing their black boots, t-shirts, and patches at no additional cost.
Title: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Storm Chaser on March 12, 2016, 10:50:00 AM
Quote from: Goblin on March 12, 2016, 05:19:26 AM

Quote from: lordmonar on March 12, 2016, 04:35:39 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on March 12, 2016, 04:23:55 AM
Regarding black boots, I still have, and wear, a pair from when I was on active duty. The leather is a little grrr'd here and there, but they still take a decent shine. I doubt that rough out boots would have lasted that long.
I got a pair of ABU boots that I wear almost every day for work.  They are almost 10 years old now....and still great.

I guess it depends how much work you do in them.

I'm on my 4th pair in 5 years

I've wore my ABU boots for nearly 5 years now and they're still great for the most part. The sole is starting to wear out at the heal (something that happens to all my shoes), so I may need to replace them soon.

Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on March 12, 2016, 01:10:35 AM
Quote from: USACAP on March 11, 2016, 11:30:46 PM
Shining boots is an insane waste of time ...

Lies! I have it on good authority that shining boots "builds character!"

I've been shining boots for 29 years, since I was 12. I don't think it's helped me build any character, but it has taken a lot of my time over the years; time I could've used more productively doing something else.

I had my doubts when the Air Force replaced the black leather boots, but after I started wearing ABU boots it was evident to me that moving away from black leather boots that needed to be shined every day was a good move.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: foo on March 12, 2016, 02:26:15 PM
Shining boots doesn't build character? Obviously you've never seen Karate Kid.

(http://www.cleaningtips.guru/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/wax-on-wax-off.jpg)
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: -_adrian_- on March 12, 2016, 09:42:15 PM
I agree shinning boots doesn't build character, it is simply a waste of time. I could see using real leather dress shoes that actually need to be shined but not boots. They are boots they aren't supposed to super shiny and sqeaky clean. There is going to be a phase out period if ABU'S are authorized anyway and cadets are going to have to wear and purchase the boots black or sage green anyway so why not use what is the most functional. Besides a lot of cadets I know join because they want to wear a uniform similar or very close to the USAF uniforms and be involved in the AirForce activities. If we are supposed to be a extention or at least a auxiliary of the USAF why wouldn't we wear the uniform? Army jrotc uses ACU'S, MC jrotc uses marpat, Sea cadets and Navy jrotc use the navy ncwwu or whatever the naval digital camouflage is and we are probably the closest program to our parent organization than any of those groups and we are wearing a outdated uniform that a lot of the cadets of CAP don't want to wear. You can't have your cake and eat it too. We shouldn't be a program Backed by the AirForce and not wear the proper uniform. Even AF jrotc uses the ABU'S.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Hyperion on March 12, 2016, 10:13:29 PM
The reason people dislike the new ABU design is because it's unsymmetrical. We have a sharp contrast between the black boots and the rest of the uniform, and then we have the ugly navy blue patches. I redesigned the uniform via some quick (horrible) editing and changed the colors to be more symmetrical.

(https://i.imgur.com/HOJ7CUt.jpg)
(closer look: https://i.imgur.com/HOJ7CUt.jpg)

On the left is the current design: Black boots, green shirt, navy blue tapes.

On the right is the redesign: Black boots, black shirts, and black tapes. The black shirts will also save our members money since everyone has them for BDUs and they're also used for BBDUs too.This allows us to look even more distinctive while also not looking so ugly. Thoughts?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: lordmonar on March 12, 2016, 10:19:22 PM
Nope...leave it alone.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Nikos on March 12, 2016, 11:15:23 PM
I was wondering, as one of the newer people here.  How long does it usually take for a decision to be made about a uniform change?  I am asking with all due respect, and don't mean to offend. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: lordmonar on March 13, 2016, 12:08:33 AM
Depends.     Sometimes five minutes and some times five yesrs
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: PHall on March 13, 2016, 12:58:40 AM
The decision we are waiting for right now is coming from Headquarters Air Force. The Secretary of the Air Force will probably be the person who gives the final approval.
So it's out of CAP's hands.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: USACAP on March 13, 2016, 01:11:52 AM
Symmetry isn't really a uniform consideration ...

I haven't really pondered it but yeah!!
The say-no-to-black boots crowd has a valid point in the form of availability and affordability going forward.
For instance, Belleville is considered the cheapest Barry-compliant footwear provider to DoD.
When you go to IET, you're issued Belleville boots across the service components.

Now look @ the black boot options they manufacture... Versus the green and tan options...
This style (sole/upper pattern) is the most ubiquitous issued since 9/11:
https://www.bellevilleboot.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=28 (https://www.bellevilleboot.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=28)
I don't see an x00 pattern in black.
https://www.bellevilleboot.com/shop/index.php?c=12&l=product_list&sortby=&size=&width=&color=12&climate=3&gender=4&features=5 (https://www.bellevilleboot.com/shop/index.php?c=12&l=product_list&sortby=&size=&width=&color=12&climate=3&gender=4&features=5)

Arguing over boot color sounds silly, but as stocks of surplus black boots run out it does become a cost and sourcing issue.
Economy of scale and all that.

If the CAP sticks with black, we'll end up wearing surplus Navy and USCG footwear, I suppose?


Quote from: Hyperion on March 12, 2016, 10:13:29 PM
The reason people dislike the new ABU design is because it's unsymmetrical.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: abdsp51 on March 13, 2016, 01:25:25 AM
Quote from: USACAP on March 13, 2016, 01:11:52 AM
Arguing over boot color sounds silly, but as stocks of surplus black boots run out it does become a cost and sourcing issue.
Economy of scale and all that.

If the CAP sticks with black, we'll end up wearing surplus Navy and USCG footwear, I suppose?

1) Please learn how to properly quote someone here...
2) Black boots will be around for a long time.  There are plenty of occupations that require black footwear to include boots. 

There is nothing wrong with black boots for the ABU for our purposes. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Storm Chaser on March 13, 2016, 02:26:44 AM
Quote from: abdsp51 on March 13, 2016, 01:25:25 AM
There is nothing wrong with black boots for the ABU for our purposes.

No, but there's also no need for the ABUs. Why not replace woodland BDUs with the corporate blue BDU, a uniform that EVERYONE can wear?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: abdsp51 on March 13, 2016, 02:37:48 AM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on March 13, 2016, 02:26:44 AM
Quote from: abdsp51 on March 13, 2016, 01:25:25 AM
There is nothing wrong with black boots for the ABU for our purposes.

No, but there's also no need for the ABUs. Why not replace woodland BDUs with the corporate blue BDU, a uniform that EVERYONE can wear?

Right now not everyone can wear BBDU. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Storm Chaser on March 13, 2016, 03:53:26 AM
Quote from: abdsp51 on March 13, 2016, 02:37:48 AM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on March 13, 2016, 02:26:44 AM
Quote from: abdsp51 on March 13, 2016, 01:25:25 AM
There is nothing wrong with black boots for the ABU for our purposes.

No, but there's also no need for the ABUs. Why not replace woodland BDUs with the corporate blue BDU, a uniform that EVERYONE can wear?

Right now not everyone can wear BBDU.

Correct. I meant to say a uniform that everyone COULD wear, if approved.

To be fair, I don't have anything against ABUs. And while I prefer the sage green boots, I'm sure I'll eventually get used to the black boots. What I can't get used to is the fact that we have a uniform (the woodland BDU and eventually the ABU) that not every member can wear. That COULD be corrected by making the corporate blue BDU the utility/field uniform for ALL members.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: LSThiker on March 13, 2016, 04:46:24 AM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on March 13, 2016, 03:53:26 AM
That COULD be corrected by making the corporate blue BDU the utility/field uniform for ALL members.

While not the greatest situation as there would still be technically two uniforms, but at least make the corporate BDUs required for all senior members with cadets wearing the BDUs/ABUs.  It is an easy to define line to outsiders that the adult members/leaders wear the blue uniform while the cadets wear the ABUs.  YMMV.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on March 13, 2016, 05:23:35 AM
With the exception of the black tee, to me both photos look identical.

:D

Maybe I need new glasses?

:-\

...But I don't think that is the reason!

???
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Hyperion on March 13, 2016, 07:50:30 AM
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on March 13, 2016, 05:23:35 AM
With the exception of the black tee, to me both photos look identical.

:D

Maybe I need new glasses?

:-\

...But I don't think that is the reason!

???

Here's a closer look: https://i.imgur.com/HOJ7CUt.jpg

I changed the tee and all the patches to black. The patches are now black with white lettering. It gives the uniform a more balanced look while also saving money (no need for the sage tees) and helping distinguish us from at a distance even more. It may be difficult to see the difference between the patches because the navy blue is pretty dark already. Hope that clarifies things!
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Shuman 14 on March 13, 2016, 12:50:24 PM
I've avoided throwing my 2 cents in... until now.

I always liked ultramarine blue, it has, over time, become the "branch" color of CAP. I'd like to see the rank, badge and tape colors stay ultramarine blue. For tradition sake if nothing else.

As to boots, maybe authorize all three colors: tan, blue/green and black. That way, regardless of what you already possess can be worn and save the member money.

Same with t-shirts: green, tan or black to save money or, call me crazy, authorize a ultramarine blue t-shirt to match the tapes and such.

Clearly distinctive and low-light identifiable.

That or just put everyone into BBDUs, or, as someone suggested a few years ago, if you want a "more military and less SWAT team" look adopt a solid olive drab green uniform with ultramarine blue rank and tapes and full color patches.

Someone had posted that idea a few years back with a picture of a solid green ACU cut/style uniform with the ultramarine trappings attached. I went looking for the thread here but couldn't find it. I thought it looked pretty sharp and professional and clearly no confusion between USAF and CAP.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on March 13, 2016, 01:33:49 PM
Quote from: shuman14 on March 13, 2016, 12:50:24 PM
I've avoided throwing my 2 cents in... until now.

I always liked ultramarine blue, it has, over time, become the "branch" color of CAP. I'd like to see the rank, badge and tape colors stay ultramarine blue. For tradition sake if nothing else.

As to boots, maybe authorize all three colors: tan, blue/green and black. That way, regardless of what you already possess can be worn and save the member money.

Same with t-shirts: green, tan or black to save money or, call me crazy, authorize a ultramarine blue t-shirt to match the tapes and such.

Clearly distinctive and low-light identifiable.

That or just put everyone into BBDUs, or, as someone suggested a few years ago, if you want a "more military and less SWAT team" look adopt a solid olive drab green uniform with ultramarine blue rank and tapes and full color patches.

Someone had posted that idea a few years back with a picture of a solid green ACU cut/style uniform with the ultramarine trappings attached. I went looking for the thread here but couldn't find it. I thought it looked pretty sharp and professional and clearly no confusion between USAF and CAP.

Says the man with no dog in this fight, as regards patrons and uniforms.

Seriously, though, closer identity to Ma Blue to me says everything except insignia matches. The state defense forces have a closer identity to the NG, except for the lettering on the tapes and the red name tags for their dress uniforms. Everything else, excluding ribbons, is pretty much identical. Why can't we have the same kind of thing? There's no low-light identifiability there. Everything is ACU, including boots, but the caveat is that they HAVE TO conform to H/W or they're out. Something we can't enforce, apparently. There's no "corporate" uniform available.

Yeah, yeah, I understand it's comparing apples to tanks, but you get my drift.

It's quite possible that Ma Blue will say "You know what, we want you in sage boots, here's a few thousand of them in various sizes. We also uncovered a few conex containers of smaller sizes we were going to give our Korean allies (hey, Asians are typically smaller than Caucasians. Ask my Japanese 4'10 mother) for your cadets. Also, the insignia looks horrible. Stay with the ABU material."

It's also possible they'll say no way, go pound sand.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: -_adrian_- on March 13, 2016, 06:48:03 PM
Quote from: Hyperion on March 12, 2016, 10:13:29 PM
The reason people dislike the new ABU design is because it's unsymmetrical. We have a sharp contrast between the black boots and the rest of the uniform, and then we have the ugly navy blue patches. I redesigned the uniform via some quick (horrible) editing and changed the colors to be more symmetrical.

(https://i.imgur.com/HOJ7CUt.jpg)
(closer look: https://i.imgur.com/HOJ7CUt.jpg)

On the left is the current design: Black boots, green shirt, navy blue tapes.

On the right is the redesign: Black boots, black shirts, and black tapes. The black shirts will also save our members money since everyone has them for BDUs and they're also used for BBDUs too.This allows us to look even more distinctive while also not looking so ugly. Thoughts?
Or if we to just change the color of the boots to sage green it would be much more symmetrical.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: PHall on March 13, 2016, 07:31:13 PM
Quote from: -_adrian_- on March 13, 2016, 06:48:03 PM
Quote from: Hyperion on March 12, 2016, 10:13:29 PM
The reason people dislike the new ABU design is because it's unsymmetrical. We have a sharp contrast between the black boots and the rest of the uniform, and then we have the ugly navy blue patches. I redesigned the uniform via some quick (horrible) editing and changed the colors to be more symmetrical.

(https://i.imgur.com/HOJ7CUt.jpg)
(closer look: https://i.imgur.com/HOJ7CUt.jpg)

On the left is the current design: Black boots, green shirt, navy blue tapes.

On the right is the redesign: Black boots, black shirts, and black tapes. The black shirts will also save our members money since everyone has them for BDUs and they're also used for BBDUs too.This allows us to look even more distinctive while also not looking so ugly. Thoughts?
Or if we to just change the color of the boots to sage green it would be much more symmetrical.

I guess you just don't get it. The time for changes is over. The package is now up at Headquarters Air Force for their approval/disapproval.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: billford1 on March 13, 2016, 07:33:20 PM
I think the uniform in the picture looks just fine with the black boots which help the uniform look more distinctive. I hope the AF pulls the trigger.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: -_adrian_- on March 13, 2016, 07:34:18 PM
Quote from: PHall on March 13, 2016, 07:31:13 PM
Quote from: -_adrian_- on March 13, 2016, 06:48:03 PM
Quote from: Hyperion on March 12, 2016, 10:13:29 PM
The reason people dislike the new ABU design is because it's unsymmetrical. We have a sharp contrast between the black boots and the rest of the uniform, and then we have the ugly navy blue patches. I redesigned the uniform via some quick (horrible) editing and changed the colors to be more symmetrical.

(https://i.imgur.com/HOJ7CUt.jpg)
(closer look: https://i.imgur.com/HOJ7CUt.jpg)

On the left is the current design: Black boots, green shirt, navy blue tapes.

On the right is the redesign: Black boots, black shirts, and black tapes. The black shirts will also save our members money since everyone has them for BDUs and they're also used for BBDUs too.This allows us to look even more distinctive while also not looking so ugly. Thoughts?
Or if we to just change the color of the boots to sage green it would be much more symmetrical.

I guess you just don't get it. The time for changes is over. The package is now up at Headquarters Air Force for their approval/disapproval.
The Air Force could also have the package changed from black to sage green before they aprove it.
Quote from: PHall on March 13, 2016, 07:31:13 PM
Quote from: -_adrian_- on March 13, 2016, 06:48:03 PM
Quote from: Hyperion on March 12, 2016, 10:13:29 PM
The reason people dislike the new ABU design is because it's unsymmetrical. We have a sharp contrast between the black boots and the rest of the uniform, and then we have the ugly navy blue patches. I redesigned the uniform via some quick (horrible) editing and changed the colors to be more symmetrical.

(https://i.imgur.com/HOJ7CUt.jpg)
(closer look: https://i.imgur.com/HOJ7CUt.jpg)

On the left is the current design: Black boots, green shirt, navy blue tapes.

On the right is the redesign: Black boots, black shirts, and black tapes. The black shirts will also save our members money since everyone has them for BDUs and they're also used for BBDUs too.This allows us to look even more distinctive while also not looking so ugly. Thoughts?
Or if we to just change the color of the boots to sage green it would be much more symmetrical.

I guess you just don't get it. The time for changes is over. The package is now up at Headquarters Air Force for their approval/disapproval.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on March 13, 2016, 07:41:33 PM
Whichever way they go, it's all a waiting game now.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on March 13, 2016, 08:25:37 PM
I thought we were keeping black shirts too?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: foo on March 13, 2016, 11:06:39 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on March 13, 2016, 08:25:37 PM
I thought we were keeping black shirts too?

That was not one of the two "distinguishing modifications" listed for the ABU.

Quote from: A Message from the Chairman of the CAP National Uniform Committee to Fellow members of the Civil Air Patrol
The National Uniform Committee, in coordination with CAP-USAF recommended that CAP ask for Air Force approval to wear the ABU with the following distinguishing modifications:

1.  Name and CAP tapes, aviation and specialty badges would be on a Navy Blue background with silver thread. These colors would be the same as currently in use on the NCO stripes. The NUC examined the possibility of using the ABU tapes. Because our adult members wear the same grade insignia as Air Force Officers, use of the ABU tapes was not considered to be distinguishable in accordance to the AFI. AFJROTC and AFROTC wear the ABU tapes, but they do not wear officer grade insignia. Wing, Unit, and Activity patches would be optional under the proposal.

2.  Black boots. There were many factors in our recommendation to retain the black boots. The first was cost to the membership. Many members already own black boots. Also, black boots are still available at reasonable prices commercially. The green boots cost over $100. Another consideration was asking members to buy a second pair of boots if they chose to wear other uniform combinations. The corporate (blue) uniform has black boots, as do the flight duty uniforms.  The final reason was the black boots provide a further distinguishing factor to the uniform.

Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: etodd on March 14, 2016, 12:32:09 AM
Please excuse my sidetrack for a moment long enough to ask a quick question. In all these discussions of uniforms, is there any talk of changing the corporate uniform (black shoes, gray pants and 3 button shirt)?  Its the only uniform I own and what I wear as a pilot. I happy with it.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Paul Creed III on March 14, 2016, 12:34:11 AM
Quote from: etodd on March 14, 2016, 12:32:09 AM
Please excuse my sidetrack for a moment long enough to ask a quick question. In all these discussions of uniforms, is there any talk of changing the corporate uniform (black shoes, gray pants and 3 button shirt)?  Its the only uniform I own and what I wear as a pilot. I happy with it.

There has been discussions here on CAPTalk about headgear for this uniform but nothing at NUC level, as far as I have heard.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: etodd on March 14, 2016, 12:42:56 AM
Quote from: Paul Creed III on March 14, 2016, 12:34:11 AM
Quote from: etodd on March 14, 2016, 12:32:09 AM
Please excuse my sidetrack for a moment long enough to ask a quick question. In all these discussions of uniforms, is there any talk of changing the corporate uniform (black shoes, gray pants and 3 button shirt)?  Its the only uniform I own and what I wear as a pilot. I happy with it.

There has been discussions here on CAPTalk about headgear for this uniform but nothing at NUC level, as far as I have heard.

Thanks!  My Zulu.2 is enough headgear. :)
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Full time cadet on March 14, 2016, 01:31:36 AM
Why black boots....

If you can't wear the uniform properly just like the ones that worn it before us, don't bother wearing it.

and why silver on dark blue nametapes

The white on blue nametapes holds our heritage for many years, it is also a big factor of distinguishing us as CAP.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: abdsp51 on March 14, 2016, 01:39:20 AM
Quote from: etodd on March 14, 2016, 12:32:09 AM
Please excuse my sidetrack for a moment long enough to ask a quick question. In all these discussions of uniforms, is there any talk of changing the corporate uniform (black shoes, gray pants and 3 button shirt)?  Its the only uniform I own and what I wear as a pilot. I happy with it.

Then you are not in compliance with 39-1. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: abdsp51 on March 14, 2016, 01:40:35 AM
Quote from: Full time cadet on March 14, 2016, 01:31:36 AM
Why black boots....

If you can't wear the uniform properly just like the ones that worn it before us, don't bother wearing it.

and why silver on dark blue nametapes

The white on blue nametapes holds our heritage for many years, it is also a big factor of distinguishing us as CAP.

Do you have $100 plus bucks for a pair of boots?  It was in the email why the black boots are being retained and why the possible change to dark navy tapes.   
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on March 14, 2016, 01:43:57 AM
Quote from: abdsp51 on March 14, 2016, 01:39:20 AM
Then you are not in compliance with 39-1.

Perhaps you could give this nice member, who came here looking for an answer to his question, a tiny bit more amplification to your response.

Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: lordmonar on March 14, 2016, 01:48:31 AM
Quote from: Full time cadet on March 14, 2016, 01:31:36 AM
Why black boots....
Because everyone already has them.  Acceptable Black Boots can be found for under $50 vice the cheapest Sage Boot at $100.
QuoteIf you can't wear the uniform properly just like the ones that worn it before us, don't bother wearing it.
??
Quoteand why silver on dark blue nametapes
For many many years people have complained to the NUC that the Ultramarine Blue looks kind of cartoony.   The Silver on Navy was the most preferred choice.
QuoteThe white on blue nametapes holds our heritage for many years, it is also a big factor of distinguishing us as CAP.
Heritage....who cares about heritage.   Also "distinguished us as CAP"....from who?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: A.Member on March 14, 2016, 02:07:57 AM
Proposal is great as is, no changes needed.  NUC has done a excellent job!  Well done.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Holding Pattern on March 14, 2016, 02:19:11 AM
Quote from: A.Member on March 14, 2016, 02:07:57 AM
Proposal is great as is, no changes needed.  NUC has done a excellent job!  Well done.
I'm rather happy with everything. Except for the acronym of NUC. Intel supplanted it and it leaves us poor techies confused. But that isn't the NUC's fault.

http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/nuc/overview.html (http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/nuc/overview.html)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Unit_of_Computing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Unit_of_Computing)
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: etodd on March 14, 2016, 02:51:46 AM
Quote from: NIN on March 14, 2016, 01:43:57 AM
Quote from: abdsp51 on March 14, 2016, 01:39:20 AM
Then you are not in compliance with 39-1.

Perhaps you could give this nice member, who came here looking for an answer to his question, a tiny bit more amplification to your response.

Quote
5.2. Corporate-style Working Uniforms
5.2.1. Men's and Women's Corporate Field Uniform (Dark Blue, BDU Style). (Figure 5.2)
5.2.1.1. Field uniforms are specifically designed to be worn in a field or working environment that involves physical exertion. Field uniform wear is generally restricted to CAP meeting and activities with a field or training focus,....


I consider being a pilot to be "field or training" ....  Page 73 of 39-1 shows the uniform.  Its what most of our Squadron wears.

(???)
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: JeffDG on March 14, 2016, 02:53:54 AM
Quote from: etodd on March 14, 2016, 02:51:46 AM
Quote from: NIN on March 14, 2016, 01:43:57 AM
Quote from: abdsp51 on March 14, 2016, 01:39:20 AM
Then you are not in compliance with 39-1.

Perhaps you could give this nice member, who came here looking for an answer to his question, a tiny bit more amplification to your response.

Quote
5.2. Corporate-style Working Uniforms
5.2.1. Men's and Women's Corporate Field Uniform (Dark Blue, BDU Style). (Figure 5.2)
5.2.1.1. Field uniforms are specifically designed to be worn in a field or working environment that involves physical exertion. Field uniform wear is generally restricted to CAP meeting and activities with a field or training focus,....


I consider being a pilot to be "field or training" ....  Page 73 of 39-1 shows the uniform.  Its what most of our Squadron wears.

(???)
Check out 1.2.1
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: etodd on March 14, 2016, 02:59:28 AM
Quote from: JeffDG on March 14, 2016, 02:53:54 AM
Quote from: etodd on March 14, 2016, 02:51:46 AM
Quote from: NIN on March 14, 2016, 01:43:57 AM
Quote from: abdsp51 on March 14, 2016, 01:39:20 AM
Then you are not in compliance with 39-1.

Perhaps you could give this nice member, who came here looking for an answer to his question, a tiny bit more amplification to your response.

Quote
5.2. Corporate-style Working Uniforms
5.2.1. Men's and Women's Corporate Field Uniform (Dark Blue, BDU Style). (Figure 5.2)
5.2.1.1. Field uniforms are specifically designed to be worn in a field or working environment that involves physical exertion. Field uniform wear is generally restricted to CAP meeting and activities with a field or training focus,....


I consider being a pilot to be "field or training" ....  Page 73 of 39-1 shows the uniform.  Its what most of our Squadron wears.

(???)
Check out 1.2.1

Thanks. That got me to:

1.2.2. Wearing the USAF-style uniform is a privilege extended to CAP members ....

"Privilege" as opposed to requirement. 1.2.1 spells out the minimums.

So bottom line is anything over the minimum for flight duties is optional. With the caveat that if one DOES wear the USAF style ... there are requirements.

Thanks again. That answered my question. I'm happy. Moving along now.  :)
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: JeffDG on March 14, 2016, 03:04:55 AM
Quote from: etodd on March 14, 2016, 02:59:28 AM
Quote from: JeffDG on March 14, 2016, 02:53:54 AM
Quote from: etodd on March 14, 2016, 02:51:46 AM
Quote from: NIN on March 14, 2016, 01:43:57 AM
Quote from: abdsp51 on March 14, 2016, 01:39:20 AM
Then you are not in compliance with 39-1.

Perhaps you could give this nice member, who came here looking for an answer to his question, a tiny bit more amplification to your response.

Quote
5.2. Corporate-style Working Uniforms
5.2.1. Men's and Women's Corporate Field Uniform (Dark Blue, BDU Style). (Figure 5.2)
5.2.1.1. Field uniforms are specifically designed to be worn in a field or working environment that involves physical exertion. Field uniform wear is generally restricted to CAP meeting and activities with a field or training focus,....


I consider being a pilot to be "field or training" ....  Page 73 of 39-1 shows the uniform.  Its what most of our Squadron wears.

(???)
Check out 1.2.1

Thanks. That got me to:

1.2.2. Wearing the USAF-style uniform is a privilege extended to CAP members ....

"Privilege" as opposed to requirement. 1.2.1 spells out the minimums.

So bottom line is anything over the minimum for flight duties is optional. With the caveat that if one DOES wear the USAF style ... there are requirements.

Thanks again. That answered my question. I'm happy. Moving along now.  :)
1.2.1 requires that you maintain either the AF-blue uniform, or the aviator white uniform.  Having only the polo is not one of the options.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: abdsp51 on March 14, 2016, 03:05:12 AM
Quote from: etodd on March 14, 2016, 02:59:28 AM
Thanks. That got me to:

1.2.2. Wearing the USAF-style uniform is a privilege extended to CAP members ....

"Privilege" as opposed to requirement. 1.2.1 spells out the minimums.

So bottom line is anything over the minimum for flight duties is optional. With the caveat that if one DOES wear the USAF style ... there are requirements.

Thanks again. That answered my question. I'm happy. Moving along now.  :)

1.2. Wear of the CAP Uniform.
1.2.1. Individual members will obtain and maintain for wear either of the minimum basic uniforms described here. These combinations meet the requirements of most CAP events. A commander may require cadets to wear other optional uniform items only if the purchase is voluntary (such as requiring a specific uniform for participation in a National Cadet Special Activity) or if the uniform is supplied without expense to the cadet.
1.2.1.1. Minimum USAF-style Uniform: The minimum basic USAF-style uniform is the Blue Service Uniform (Class B) with short sleeve shirt (male) or blouse (female) as appropriate. Cadets authorized to wear the USAF-style uniform are required to maintain this uniform.
1.2.1.2. Minimum Corporate-style Uniform: The minimum basic CAP Corporate-style uniform is the Aviator Shirt Uniform with short sleeve shirt or blouse as appropriate. Cadets aged 18 and older who meet weight standards for wear of the USAF-style uniform must maintain the USAF-style Class B uniform as noted in the previous paragraph.

You must have missed these paragraphs which defines the min requirement and the polo is not it.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: etodd on March 14, 2016, 03:11:50 AM
Quote1.2.4.2. Members are normally required to wear a CAP uniform (either USAF- or Corporate-style) when working with cadets, when flying in a CAP aircraft (Corporate or member owned aircraft used in a CAP flight activity), or when conducting business under a CAP mission number (A, B, or C).

Page 73 shows the Corporate Working Style I wear. Seems to fit the above 1.2.4.2

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/M391_E6F33EAAEC28A.pdf (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/M391_E6F33EAAEC28A.pdf)

(Obviously this all varies by Wings and Squadrons. I'll stop posting now, as I'm happy with the Polo Shirt uniform and it works for me.)
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: abdsp51 on March 14, 2016, 03:18:39 AM
Quote from: etodd on March 14, 2016, 03:11:50 AM
Quote1.2.4.2. Members are normally required to wear a CAP uniform (either USAF- or Corporate-style) when working with cadets, when flying in a CAP aircraft (Corporate or member owned aircraft used in a CAP flight activity), or when conducting business under a CAP mission number (A, B, or C).

Page 73 shows the Corporate Working Style I wear. Seems to fit the above 1.2.4.2

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/M391_E6F33EAAEC28A.pdf (http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/M391_E6F33EAAEC28A.pdf)

(Obviously this all varies by Wings and Squadrons. I'll stop posting now, as I'm happy with the Polo Shirt uniform and it works for me.)

If you do not own one of the min required uniforms, you are in violation.  No amount of digging and providing pictures is going to help your cause.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: LSThiker on March 14, 2016, 03:24:07 AM
Quote from: etodd on March 14, 2016, 03:11:50 AM
Page 73 shows the Corporate Working Style I wear. Seems to fit the above 1.2.4.2

This may not necessarily be your "fault" as this may be confusing for a new member such as your self.  If I recall correctly, there was a discussion at the National Conference regarding a change to the Level 1 instruction on uniforms.  I believe NHQ has (or was going to) remove discussion about how to properly wear all uniforms and just leave the Polo shirt with the "implied" assumption that this is the only thing a new member needs to buy.  They were not going to discuss the USAF-style blues shirt or the white aviator shirt along with the BDUs or flight suit. 

A CMSgt and I raised this exact same concern (that all SMs were to either own the USAF-style or the Corporate uniform) about this to the person in charge of the break-out discussion, the NHQ paid-staff member.  Needless to say, it did not go well as there was no budging on this from NHQ.  It was basically a concession that since SMs usually only buy the polo uniform, there was no need to talk about corporate uniform.  Essentially, NHQ knows about it but is not going to enforce a cultural change and disrupt the status quo. 

Out of curiosity, etodd, did your Level 1 training only discuss the polo shirt?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: JeffDG on March 14, 2016, 03:26:36 AM
Quote from: LSThiker on March 14, 2016, 03:24:07 AM
Quote from: etodd on March 14, 2016, 03:11:50 AM
Page 73 shows the Corporate Working Style I wear. Seems to fit the above 1.2.4.2

This may not necessarily be your "fault" as this may be confusing for a new member such as your self.  If I recall correctly, there was a discussion at the National Conference regarding a change to the Level 1 instruction on uniforms.  I believe NHQ has (or was going to) remove discussion about how to properly wear all uniforms and just leave the Polo shirt with the "implied" assumption that this is the only thing a new member needs to buy.  They were not going to discuss the USAF-style blues shirt or the white aviator shirt along with the BDUs or flight suit. 

A CMSgt and I raised this exact same concern (that all SMs were to either own the USAF-style or the Corporate uniform) about this to the person in charge of the break-out discussion, the NHQ paid-staff member.  Needless to say, it did not go well as there was no budging on this from NHQ.  It was basically a concession that since SMs usually only buy the polo uniform, there was no need to talk about corporate uniform.  Essentially, NHQ knows about it but is not going to enforce a cultural change and disrupt the status quo. 

Out of curiosity, etodd, did your Level 1 training only discuss the polo shirt?
I'm not necessarily opposed to what the NHQ person said.  But for the love of God, if you're going to push something that is in contravention to the regulation, especially now that CAP/CC can amend regulations by the stroke of a pen, amend the regulation!  Go ahead and make the polo one of the allowable "minimum" uniform combinations and all of this goes away.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: etodd on March 14, 2016, 03:35:12 AM
Quote from: LSThiker on March 14, 2016, 03:24:07 AM

This may not necessarily be your "fault" as this may be confusing for a new member such as your self.

It was basically a concession that since SMs usually only buy the polo uniform, there was no need to talk about corporate uniform.  Essentially, NHQ knows about it but is not going to enforce a cultural change and disrupt the status quo.

Some of the pilots in my squadron wear the BDUs on some days and the polo other days and some wear the polo all the time.  So its not "me being confused".  LOL

Anyway ... I was just asking a simple question a couple pages ago and never meant to hijack this thread. Your quote above in regards to NHQ answers my question. Goodnite all.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: PA Guy on March 14, 2016, 05:50:15 AM
As usual an innocent member walks in and asks a question. Instantly every anal retentive barracks room lawyer on of the forum feels compelled to make a comment. Dog piles seem to be the favorite past time of some of the posters. It is just down right mean spirited. And what's worse they seem to enjoy it.

As for the thread itself for all that is holy lock this thread. There is nothing left to say that hasn't been. The decisions have been made, Deal with it. It is the Air Force's freaking uniform and they will decide the future of it in CAP.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: FW on March 14, 2016, 12:27:15 PM
Quote from: PA Guy on March 14, 2016, 05:50:15 AM
As for the thread itself for all that is holy lock this thread. There is nothing left to say that hasn't been. The decisions have been made, Deal with it. It is the Air Force's freaking uniform and they will decide the future of it in CAP.

OMDL! Methinks this has been the longest conversation about (what I think is) the most insignificant part of CAP ever! With membership levels dropping, funding stagnant, and morale in question, is this the best we can do?
I forget the number of uniform combinations I've worn over the years as a CAP member.  I really don't care what new set comes down the pike.  I got work to do... :-X
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on March 14, 2016, 12:44:39 PM
Quote from: FW on March 14, 2016, 12:27:15 PM
I forget the number of uniform combinations I've worn over the years as a CAP member.  I really don't care what new set comes down the pike.  I got work to do... :-X

Amen, brother. Amen.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on March 14, 2016, 12:54:33 PM
Quote from: FW on March 14, 2016, 12:27:15 PM
Quote from: PA Guy on March 14, 2016, 05:50:15 AM
As for the thread itself for all that is holy lock this thread. There is nothing left to say that hasn't been. The decisions have been made, Deal with it. It is the Air Force's freaking uniform and they will decide the future of it in CAP.

OMDL! Methinks this has been the longest conversation about (what I think is) the most insignificant part of CAP ever! With membership levels dropping, funding stagnant, and morale in question, is this the best we can do?
I forget the number of uniform combinations I've worn over the years as a CAP member.  I really don't care what new set comes down the pike.  I got work to do... :-X

Let's see....OG-107 jungle fatigues, regular OD fatigues, BDUs, several different styles of blues (shirt went through 2 changes, jacket about 3, maybe 4), and now the polo. I'm sure others have more, but I'm a basic sandwich kind of a guy.

Yeah, doesn't matter what we wear, we have a job to do. I'm kinda sick of it too. Reminds me of Cyrus from Trailer Park Boys: "**** off, I got work to do."
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on March 14, 2016, 01:04:43 PM
Quote from: PA Guy on March 14, 2016, 05:50:15 AM
As usual an innocent member walks in and asks a question. Instantly every anal retentive barracks room lawyer on of the forum feels compelled to make a comment. Dog piles seem to be the favorite past time of some of the posters. It is just down right mean spirited. And what's worse they seem to enjoy it.

That was kind of why I asked the posted above to clarify.

There is a term for this kind of thing on the internet that is not really appropriate for polite company, but suffice to day, its pretty standard on CAP-Talk:

1) New member registers on CAPTalk
2) Posts question they don't seem to be getting an answer to at their unit, or nobody at the unit knows, etc.
3) Multiple people either go "USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION!" or "YOU'RE WRONG!!!"
4) The new member goes "Well, so much for getting an answer to my question" and goes away.
5) Go to Step 3 and iterate until the participants are exhausted or a moderator finally has enough. 

Yes, there is a point where we do get the same question over and over, but nobody comes into a forum expecting to use the search function (after all, we have the Knowledgebase, right? <ducks>).  Thats why we should probably have a frequently asked questions section. 

"Read the FAQs first, in case your question is one of the x questions that get debated to death here..."

Then its behavioral.  We have to train out the Pavlovian tendency to treat new posters like they're slobbering idiots who can't lift a finger.  CAP is a complicated beast.  I explained it to parent like this  recently: "You're familiar with board games, right?  There are some fairly clear rules, some pieces,  a board with spaces, maybe some dice, you've played them before. Like Monopoly or Chutes & Ladders. Pretty linear A-to-B sort of thing, right?  Ever play Dungeons and Dragons?  You open the box and there are some dice like you've never seen before, some pieces of paper and a thick book of rules that one guy reads and explains to everybody else.  No board, no spaces, no pieces.   Civil Air Patrol is kind of like Dungeons and Dragons: a complex, multi-faceted beast of an organization that has a thick (virtual) binder of rules, policies, procedures, customs, unspoken and unwritten methods, arcane and byzantine stuff, and none of it conforms to what you've seen out of other organizations."

So lets all be helpful experienced game masters to our newbie players, eh?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Spaceman3750 on March 14, 2016, 02:11:16 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on March 14, 2016, 12:54:33 PM
Quote from: FW on March 14, 2016, 12:27:15 PM
Quote from: PA Guy on March 14, 2016, 05:50:15 AM
As for the thread itself for all that is holy lock this thread. There is nothing left to say that hasn't been. The decisions have been made, Deal with it. It is the Air Force's freaking uniform and they will decide the future of it in CAP.

OMDL! Methinks this has been the longest conversation about (what I think is) the most insignificant part of CAP ever! With membership levels dropping, funding stagnant, and morale in question, is this the best we can do?
I forget the number of uniform combinations I've worn over the years as a CAP member.  I really don't care what new set comes down the pike.  I got work to do... :-X

Let's see....OG-107 jungle fatigues, regular OD fatigues, BDUs, several different styles of blues (shirt went through 2 changes, jacket about 3, maybe 4), and now the polo. I'm sure others have more, but I'm a basic sandwich kind of a guy.

Yeah, doesn't matter what we wear, we have a job to do. I'm kinda sick of it too. Reminds me of Cyrus from Trailer Park Boys: "**** off, I got work to do."

We've been in the same fundamental uniform combinations (Blues/BDUs) for what, at least 15 years? Sure there's been minor changes along the way (US CAP tapes, or the CSU for those who opted to buy it) but there hasn't been a "go buy a new wardrobe" event in a significant amount of time right?

Seems like a pretty reasonable timeframe to me.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on March 14, 2016, 02:31:36 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on March 14, 2016, 02:11:16 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on March 14, 2016, 12:54:33 PM
Quote from: FW on March 14, 2016, 12:27:15 PM
Quote from: PA Guy on March 14, 2016, 05:50:15 AM
As for the thread itself for all that is holy lock this thread. There is nothing left to say that hasn't been. The decisions have been made, Deal with it. It is the Air Force's freaking uniform and they will decide the future of it in CAP.

OMDL! Methinks this has been the longest conversation about (what I think is) the most insignificant part of CAP ever! With membership levels dropping, funding stagnant, and morale in question, is this the best we can do?
I forget the number of uniform combinations I've worn over the years as a CAP member.  I really don't care what new set comes down the pike.  I got work to do... :-X

Let's see....OG-107 jungle fatigues, regular OD fatigues, BDUs, several different styles of blues (shirt went through 2 changes, jacket about 3, maybe 4), and now the polo. I'm sure others have more, but I'm a basic sandwich kind of a guy.

Yeah, doesn't matter what we wear, we have a job to do. I'm kinda sick of it too. Reminds me of Cyrus from Trailer Park Boys: "**** off, I got work to do."

We've been in the same fundamental uniform combinations (Blues/BDUs) for what, at least 15 years? Sure there's been minor changes along the way (US CAP tapes, or the CSU for those who opted to buy it) but there hasn't been a "go buy a new wardrobe" event in a significant amount of time right?

Seems like a pretty reasonable timeframe to me.

Blues have been essentially what they are since circa 1994 (when we went from the "Tony Nelson" uniform to the "Merrill McPeak" uniform).  BDUs have been like this since circa 1991.

So 25 years for BDUs, and 22 for Blues.  With relatively minor changes in insignia and such (wing patches, flags, hats, cutouts, etc)
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on March 14, 2016, 02:53:36 PM
Quote from: NIN on March 14, 2016, 01:04:43 PM
Quote from: PA Guy on March 14, 2016, 05:50:15 AM
As usual an innocent member walks in and asks a question. Instantly every anal retentive barracks room lawyer on of the forum feels compelled to make a comment. Dog piles seem to be the favorite past time of some of the posters. It is just down right mean spirited. And what's worse they seem to enjoy it.

That was kind of why I asked the posted above to clarify.

There is a term for this kind of thing on the internet that is not really appropriate for polite company, but suffice to day, its pretty standard on CAP-Talk:

1) New member registers on CAPTalk
2) Posts question they don't seem to be getting an answer to at their unit, or nobody at the unit knows, etc.
3) Multiple people either go "USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION!" or "YOU'RE WRONG!!!"
4) The new member goes "Well, so much for getting an answer to my question" and goes away.
5) Go to Step 3 and iterate until the participants are exhausted or a moderator finally has enough. 

Yes, there is a point where we do get the same question over and over, but nobody comes into a forum expecting to use the search function (after all, we have the Knowledgebase, right? <ducks>).  Thats why we should probably have a frequently asked questions section. 

"Read the FAQs first, in case your question is one of the x questions that get debated to death here..."

Then its behavioral.  We have to train out the Pavlovian tendency to treat new posters like they're slobbering idiots who can't lift a finger.  CAP is a complicated beast.  I explained it to parent like this  recently: "You're familiar with board games, right?  There are some fairly clear rules, some pieces,  a board with spaces, maybe some dice, you've played them before. Like Monopoly or Chutes & Ladders. Pretty linear A-to-B sort of thing, right?  Ever play Dungeons and Dragons?  You open the box and there are some dice like you've never seen before, some pieces of paper and a thick book of rules that one guy reads and explains to everybody else.  No board, no spaces, no pieces.   Civil Air Patrol is kind of like Dungeons and Dragons: a complex, multi-faceted beast of an organization that has a thick (virtual) binder of rules, policies, procedures, customs, unspoken and unwritten methods, arcane and byzantine stuff, and none of it conforms to what you've seen out of other organizations."

So lets all be helpful experienced game masters to our newbie players, eh?

Maybe we need, as a group, to take a pledge of non-jerkiness with regards to people asking what we consider to be dumb questions.

Something like...if you don't have anything more constructive to say than "HAVE YOU ASKED YOUR CHAIN OF COMMAND? HAVE YOU EVEN HEARD OF THE REGS?", then don't open your hole.

If your intent is to make fun of said poster without contributing something useful, shut your festering gob.

If your intent is to not contribute something useful to the conversation period, throw your keyboard out the window.

I'm guilty of not forwarding the conversation, contributing only my warped humor, from time to time, and I'll attempt to stop it.

I've already stopped berating other members of the board with inane and asinine responses to such innocent questions like "So, when are we getting ABUs?" or "How do I put on my nameplate?" or "wen i wint to inkempmunt i triped while marching us to lunch it was so funnee i lol'd"

I don't see any further use for dogpiling, making people feel like krep for not knowing where to turn. We always say, in person, if you don't know an answer, find out from someone. Why would it be different here? Sure, the regs are out there for anyone to read at their leisure, but who has that kind of time when you can ask a question from someone who HAS read the fargin' things and get your answer quicker, with possibly a nice reference for their edification. "Your nametag goes over the right pocket, resting on the flap. For future reference, all your uniform questions can be answered by looking at CAPM 39-1. It's your BFF from here on out. Also, you can ask anyone in your chain of command at your home unit. They will be more than happy to make you look sharp."

There are many, many people on this board, regular contributors like NIN, Lordmonar, FW, and others that know way more than I do, even with my 20+ years. I don't claim to know everything or even anything better than they do. I do have limited experience to draw on to give my POV but, as we're fond of saying, YMMV. Different wings, different units, do things differently. The way I do things is different from NIN or FW or PHall. It may be right, it may be wrong, but it's always different.

I'm not making a grandiose statement of exit this time, because I'm not leaving and it's just stupid. I'll be around, but posting less and learning more. Darmok and Jalad on the ocean.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: etodd on March 14, 2016, 02:59:17 PM
I've been on message boards since the early days of dialup BBS systems, so I know not to let certain folks get me down. LOL

I added a better explanation of who I am and what I'm doing in the newbie thread for any who are interested in why I think the way I do. I'll leave it at this and stop hijacking this 30 page thread. ;)

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=135.msg381928#msg381928 (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=135.msg381928#msg381928)

Blue skies to all.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on March 14, 2016, 03:51:42 PM
Quote from: etodd on March 14, 2016, 02:59:17 PM
I've been on message boards since the early days of dialup BBS systems, so I know not to let certain folks get me down. LOL

I added a better explanation of who I am and what I'm doing in the newbie thread for any who are interested in why I think the way I do. I'll leave it at this and stop hijacking this 30 page thread. ;)

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=135.msg381928#msg381928 (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=135.msg381928#msg381928)

Blue skies to all.

Excellent post, BTW. Thanks.  Glad the "festering gobs" didn't scare you off.

And FWIW, before CAPTalk.net the internet forum there was CAP-Talk the email list server and it was... similar.

Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: SkywalkerRA on March 14, 2016, 04:32:39 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on March 14, 2016, 02:53:36 PM
Quote from: NIN on March 14, 2016, 01:04:43 PM
Quote from: PA Guy on March 14, 2016, 05:50:15 AM
As usual an innocent member walks in and asks a question. Instantly every anal retentive barracks room lawyer on of the forum feels compelled to make a comment. Dog piles seem to be the favorite past time of some of the posters. It is just down right mean spirited. And what's worse they seem to enjoy it.

That was kind of why I asked the posted above to clarify.

There is a term for this kind of thing on the internet that is not really appropriate for polite company, but suffice to day, its pretty standard on CAP-Talk:

1) New member registers on CAPTalk
2) Posts question they don't seem to be getting an answer to at their unit, or nobody at the unit knows, etc.
3) Multiple people either go "USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION!" or "YOU'RE WRONG!!!"
4) The new member goes "Well, so much for getting an answer to my question" and goes away.
5) Go to Step 3 and iterate until the participants are exhausted or a moderator finally has enough. 

Yes, there is a point where we do get the same question over and over, but nobody comes into a forum expecting to use the search function (after all, we have the Knowledgebase, right? <ducks>).  Thats why we should probably have a frequently asked questions section. 

"Read the FAQs first, in case your question is one of the x questions that get debated to death here..."

Then its behavioral.  We have to train out the Pavlovian tendency to treat new posters like they're slobbering idiots who can't lift a finger.  CAP is a complicated beast.  I explained it to parent like this  recently: "You're familiar with board games, right?  There are some fairly clear rules, some pieces,  a board with spaces, maybe some dice, you've played them before. Like Monopoly or Chutes & Ladders. Pretty linear A-to-B sort of thing, right?  Ever play Dungeons and Dragons?  You open the box and there are some dice like you've never seen before, some pieces of paper and a thick book of rules that one guy reads and explains to everybody else.  No board, no spaces, no pieces.   Civil Air Patrol is kind of like Dungeons and Dragons: a complex, multi-faceted beast of an organization that has a thick (virtual) binder of rules, policies, procedures, customs, unspoken and unwritten methods, arcane and byzantine stuff, and none of it conforms to what you've seen out of other organizations."

So lets all be helpful experienced game masters to our newbie players, eh?

Maybe we need, as a group, to take a pledge of non-jerkiness with regards to people asking what we consider to be dumb questions.

Something like...if you don't have anything more constructive to say than "HAVE YOU ASKED YOUR CHAIN OF COMMAND? HAVE YOU EVEN HEARD OF THE REGS?", then don't open your hole.

If your intent is to make fun of said poster without contributing something useful, shut your festering gob.

If your intent is to not contribute something useful to the conversation period, throw your keyboard out the window.

I'm guilty of not forwarding the conversation, contributing only my warped humor, from time to time, and I'll attempt to stop it.

I've already stopped berating other members of the board with inane and asinine responses to such innocent questions like "So, when are we getting ABUs?" or "How do I put on my nameplate?" or "wen i wint to inkempmunt i triped while marching us to lunch it was so funnee i lol'd"

I don't see any further use for dogpiling, making people feel like krep for not knowing where to turn. We always say, in person, if you don't know an answer, find out from someone. Why would it be different here? Sure, the regs are out there for anyone to read at their leisure, but who has that kind of time when you can ask a question from someone who HAS read the fargin' things and get your answer quicker, with possibly a nice reference for their edification. "Your nametag goes over the right pocket, resting on the flap. For future reference, all your uniform questions can be answered by looking at CAPM 39-1. It's your BFF from here on out. Also, you can ask anyone in your chain of command at your home unit. They will be more than happy to make you look sharp."

There are many, many people on this board, regular contributors like NIN, Lordmonar, FW, and others that know way more than I do, even with my 20+ years. I don't claim to know everything or even anything better than they do. I do have limited experience to draw on to give my POV but, as we're fond of saying, YMMV. Different wings, different units, do things differently. The way I do things is different from NIN or FW or PHall. It may be right, it may be wrong, but it's always different.


Yes! I'm still relatively new to CAP and Captalk and I am constantly amazed at what I see posted. I mean, I want to yell sometimes, "We're on the same team, right???"

Before I considered joining CAP I did my research-lots of research-and I ended up on CT (of course.) After being on CT for a short time I remember thinking, "If the people in the squadrons I'm thinking of joining are like this, NO thanks!" So I tabled the idea of CAP and looked at other volunteer opportunities. Eventually my love for aviation won out and I decided I wasn't going to let someone on an online forum get in the way, so I didn't, and I'm glad I joined.

But, it would be good for us to remember that while honest, open discussion is good ... demonizing someone who doesn't know about "the TPS report" may not be the best way to build connection. Everyone on this forum has a mother and/or a boss, a commander....they don't need another one, right?
Title: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Storm Chaser on March 14, 2016, 07:29:11 PM
Right. I think sometimes it's easy to forget our core value of respect. Discussions are good and we can disagree, we should always be respectful. We also need to remember that some posters may not have the same level of knowledge and experience as some of our more seasoned members, so we need to be more patient and welcoming.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: etodd on March 14, 2016, 07:53:30 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on March 14, 2016, 07:29:11 PM
We also need to remember that some posters may not have the same level of knowledge and experience as some of our more seasoned members, so we need to be more patient and welcoming.

And many of the new members may also have different reasons for joining, different goals and different expectations than members who have been around for decades. I'm happy to be at CAP but freely admit I don't fit the cookie cutter some like.

I'm also a volunteer at Habitat for Humanity. I love their 'come as you are, we love to have you here' approach as they hand you a hardhat and hammer. It's all about 'getting the job done'.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Spam on March 14, 2016, 10:28:01 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on March 14, 2016, 02:53:36 PM
Darmok and Jalad on the ocean.


Shaka... when the walls fell. Sigh...


Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Holding Pattern on March 14, 2016, 11:05:09 PM
I keep waiting for the Tenagra memorial tour.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: almostspaatz on March 15, 2016, 01:52:46 AM
Quote from: Garibaldi on March 14, 2016, 02:53:36 PM
I've already stopped berating other members of the board with inane and asinine responses to such innocent questions like "So, when are we getting ABUs?" or "How do I put on my nameplate?" or "wen i wint to inkempmunt i triped while marching us to lunch it was so funnee i lol'd"

Those are the hardest...needless to say I spit all over my keyboard  :clap:
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Brit_in_CAP on March 15, 2016, 12:19:23 PM
Quote from: NIN on March 14, 2016, 01:04:43 PM
So lets all be helpful experienced game masters to our newbie players, eh?
:clap: :clap:

Although...Dungeons and Dragons...really, Sir?!
That would make you a Mage of an incredibly high level.. ;)
I know this only because I had friends who played, you understand, back (way back) in the day... 8)
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Angus on March 15, 2016, 12:48:04 PM
Quote from: Brit_in_CAP on March 15, 2016, 12:19:23 PM
Quote from: NIN on March 14, 2016, 01:04:43 PM
So lets all be helpful experienced game masters to our newbie players, eh?
:clap: :clap:

Although...Dungeons and Dragons...really, Sir?!
That would make you a Mage of an incredibly high level.. ;)
I know this only because I had friends who played, you understand, back (way back) in the day... 8)

For me I'm more of a Magic The Gathering sort than D&D. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on March 15, 2016, 12:56:00 PM
Quote from: Brit_in_CAP on March 15, 2016, 12:19:23 PM
:clap: :clap:

Although...Dungeons and Dragons...really, Sir?!
That would make you a Mage of an incredibly high level.. ;)
I know this only because I had friends who played, you understand, back (way back) in the day... 8)

I use that as an example because WIWAK (When I Was A Kid) my dad came home with that "New hot game, Dungeons and Dragons" (Basic Set, circa 1977 or 1978).

We opened up the box and there was this "big by board game standards" rule book, a couple of polyhedral dice, a couple "character sheets" and not much else.

Our idea of "games" up to that point were things like Life, Monopoly, etc.  Short, easily understood rules, pieces, six-sided dice and a board.  The idea that the "board" was "in your mind" was just so far outside our realm of comprehension (especially my dad's), that we looked it all over for about an hour and finally my dad declared "I can't figure this out" and we never played D&D.

Now, my dad was *never* going to be a D&D DM. Ever. (I have been, subsequently) 

Why? Not because he was dumb, but because the concept of an RPG, the complexity and the scope, was just not something he could generalize by reading the instructions (and a 48-page instruction book? Yeah forget that) to counteract his 30+ years of experience with board games.

And thats the way it is with CAP: there is a lot of complexity and scope.

How did I learn to play D&D and become a DM/GM for RPGs later?  I played with some good DM/GMs and got to see how the game worked. I played with players who were willing to help me learn how to play (instead of just slicing my head off when I pulled a Leroy Jenkins accidentally)

So the hint here is to bring people along with mentoring and coaching.  Its obvious to us for the most part because we've been doing it forever.

But remember that person who doesn't even know there are regulations.   (At least we don't have the "Big Book of Maxwells," the old thick pubs binder, to visually intimdate people and make them run and hide...)
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on March 15, 2016, 02:52:04 PM
I have one of those heavy binders in my desk
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: -_adrian_- on March 15, 2016, 03:45:56 PM
Quote from: neummy on March 13, 2016, 11:06:39 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on March 13, 2016, 08:25:37 PM
I thought we were keeping black shirts too?

That was not one of the two "distinguishing modifications" listed for the ABU.

Quote from: A Message from the Chairman of the CAP National Uniform Committee to Fellow members of the Civil Air Patrol
The National Uniform Committee, in coordination with CAP-USAF recommended that CAP ask for Air Force approval to wear the ABU with the following distinguishing modifications:

1.  Name and CAP tapes, aviation and specialty badges would be on a Navy Blue background with silver thread. These colors would be the same as currently in use on the NCO stripes. The NUC examined the possibility of using the ABU tapes. Because our adult members wear the same grade insignia as Air Force Officers, use of the ABU tapes was not considered to be distinguishable in accordance to the AFI. AFJROTC and AFROTC wear the ABU tapes, but they do not wear officer grade insignia. Wing, Unit, and Activity patches would be optional under the proposal.

2.  Black boots. There were many factors in our recommendation to retain the black boots. The first was cost to the membership. Many members already own black boots. Also, black boots are still available at reasonable prices commercially. The green boots cost over $100. Another consideration was asking members to buy a second pair of boots if they chose to wear other uniform combinations. The corporate (blue) uniform has black boots, as do the flight duty uniforms.  The final reason was the black boots provide a further distinguishing factor to the uniform.

Not all of the sage green boots are over a 100 dollars. They are about the same price as the black boots.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: lordmonar on March 15, 2016, 03:48:28 PM
Not saying you are wrong....but could you provide a link please.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: -_adrian_- on March 15, 2016, 03:53:43 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on March 14, 2016, 01:48:31 AM
Quote from: Full time cadet on March 14, 2016, 01:31:36 AM
Why black boots....
Because everyone already has them.  Acceptable Black Boots can be found for under $50 vice the cheapest Sage Boot at $100.
QuoteIf you can't wear the uniform properly just like the ones that worn it before us, don't bother wearing it.
??
Quoteand why silver on dark blue nametapes
For many many years people have complained to the NUC that the Ultramarine Blue looks kind of cartoony.   The Silver on Navy was the most preferred choice.
QuoteThe white on blue nametapes holds our heritage for many years, it is also a big factor of distinguishing us as CAP.
Heritage....who cares about heritage.   Also "distinguished us as CAP"....from who?
Most black boots that are 50 dollars are junk. I have bought them and they are terrible. Not all of the sage green boots are over 100 dollars. Besides there will be a phase in peroid and are going to have to buy new boots down the line anyway, so why don't we switch now? Also most of those black boots under a 100 dollars are not very good for your feet. Most of the sage green ones were designed to be very comfortable among other things.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: -_adrian_- on March 15, 2016, 04:01:57 PM
I have a genuine question. What are we going to do with belts? Are we going to continue using the dark blue nylon belt with black buckle or are we going to go to foliage green, sage green, black, or tan?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: lordmonar on March 15, 2016, 04:04:03 PM
That all depends on what you mean by "junk".

If I got to get my 12 year old into boots that he/she is gonna out grow in a year.....I'll take the $50 junkers please.
If you are talking about me......I will spend the $150 to get a "good" pair that will last me for 10 years.

So there you go.

Also....do you got a link to those cheap sage green boots?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: -_adrian_- on March 15, 2016, 04:19:05 PM
http://tacticalgear.com/tg-outrider-sage  those are 80 bucks. I will find some more though.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: bjf_55 on March 15, 2016, 04:25:29 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on March 15, 2016, 04:04:03 PM
That all depends on what you mean by "junk".

If I got to get my 12 year old into boots that he/she is gonna out grow in a year.....I'll take the $50 junkers please.
If you are talking about me......I will spend the $150 to get a "good" pair that will last me for 10 years.

So there you go.

Also....do you got a link to those cheap sage green boots?

http://www.511tactical.com/atac-8-sage-boot.html (http://www.511tactical.com/atac-8-sage-boot.html)
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: -_adrian_- on March 15, 2016, 04:35:56 PM
Quote from: bjf_55 on March 15, 2016, 04:25:29 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on March 15, 2016, 04:04:03 PM
That all depends on what you mean by "junk".

If I got to get my 12 year old into boots that he/she is gonna out grow in a year.....I'll take the $50 junkers please.
If you are talking about me......I will spend the $150 to get a "good" pair that will last me for 10 years.

So there you go.

Also....do you got a link to those cheap sage green boots?

http://www.511tactical.com/atac-8-sage-boot.html (http://www.511tactical.com/atac-8-sage-boot.html)
That's actually perfect. The 5.11 A.T.A.C. boots are great quality and only 50 bucks right now. Thanks bjf_55.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on March 15, 2016, 05:17:58 PM
You got me all excited, and then:
(http://imgur.com/cNjYFD8.jpg)

Only sizes available are 4-7 and 11.5.

Yep
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: -_adrian_- on March 15, 2016, 05:25:16 PM
Quote from: NIN on March 15, 2016, 05:17:58 PM
You got me all excited, and then:
(http://imgur.com/cNjYFD8.jpg)

Only sizes available are 4-7 and 11.5.

Yep
Sorry about that. http://tacticalgear.com/tg-outrider-sage
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: bjf_55 on March 15, 2016, 05:57:08 PM
Quote from: NIN on March 15, 2016, 05:17:58 PM
You got me all excited, and then:
(http://imgur.com/cNjYFD8.jpg)

Only sizes available are 4-7 and 11.5.

Yep

Was in the web special email I got from 511, sorry didn't check the availability.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Spam on March 15, 2016, 06:04:18 PM
"Now look, everybody, heres what we'll do: the letter will submit to SAF, the door to ABUs will not be open yet, but we will notify the membership to not purchase anythi - HEY, SAGE BOOTS CHEAP!!! - LEEEROOOOOOOYYY,   JENKINSSSSS" (online purchase firestorm ensues)...

(grin)

V/R
Spam



Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: goblin on March 15, 2016, 06:25:14 PM

Quote from: Spam on March 15, 2016, 06:04:18 PM
"Now look, everybody, heres what we'll do: the letter will submit to SAF, the door to ABUs will not be open yet, but we will notify the membership to not purchase anythi - HEY, SAGE BOOTS CHEAP!!! - LEEEROOOOOOOYYY,   JENKINSSSSS" (online purchase firestorm ensues)...

(grin)

V/R
Spam

This is perfect.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on March 15, 2016, 06:54:57 PM
Quote from: Spam on March 15, 2016, 06:04:18 PM
"Now look, everybody, heres what we'll do: the letter will submit to SAF, the door to ABUs will not be open yet, but we will notify the membership to not purchase anythi - HEY, SAGE BOOTS CHEAP!!! - LEEEROOOOOOOYYY,   JENKINSSSSS" (online purchase firestorm ensues)...

(grin)

I wondered how long it was going to be
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Al Sayre on March 15, 2016, 08:41:52 PM
FWIW, Bargain Outfitters is going out of business in about a month (April 5th), and they have boatloads of combat & tactical boots so you may be able to get a deal:
Mens: http://www.bargainoutfitters.com/net/browse/mens-boots-shoes-combat-tactical-boots.aspx?c=11&s=370 (http://www.bargainoutfitters.com/net/browse/mens-boots-shoes-combat-tactical-boots.aspx?c=11&s=370)
Womens: http://www.bargainoutfitters.com/net/browse/womens-boots-shoes-combat-tactical-boots.aspx?c=43&s=370 (http://www.bargainoutfitters.com/net/browse/womens-boots-shoes-combat-tactical-boots.aspx?c=43&s=370)
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on March 15, 2016, 10:02:38 PM
What will members do when they rush to get these specials  and SAF says "No?"


Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: lordmonar on March 15, 2016, 10:11:42 PM
Well.....then shame on them.   

They have been told to wait.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on March 15, 2016, 10:58:48 PM
They're out $______ and lesson learned.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: SkywalkerRA on March 15, 2016, 11:16:28 PM
I foresee numerous listings in marketplace: "For sale-sage green boots. Good price. Never used."
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on March 16, 2016, 12:01:58 AM

Quote from: SkywalkerRA on March 15, 2016, 11:16:28 PM
I foresee numerous listings in marketplace: "For sale-sage green boots. Good price. Never used."

Good things come to those who wait
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: -_adrian_- on March 16, 2016, 12:34:47 AM
Quote from: NIN on March 16, 2016, 12:01:58 AM

Quote from: SkywalkerRA on March 15, 2016, 11:16:28 PM
I foresee numerous listings in marketplace: "For sale-sage green boots. Good price. Never used."

Good things come to those who wait
Unless you wait too long and miss a opportunity.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: SkywalkerRA on March 16, 2016, 12:58:00 AM
Quote from: -_adrian_- on March 16, 2016, 12:34:47 AM
Quote from: NIN on March 16, 2016, 12:01:58 AM

Quote from: SkywalkerRA on March 15, 2016, 11:16:28 PM
I foresee numerous listings in marketplace: "For sale-sage green boots. Good price. Never used."

Good things come to those who wait
Unless you wait too long and miss a opportunity.

The secret is knowing when it's a real opportunity and when it's just an opportunity to waste money. I suppose that threshold will be different for all. In the meantime, black boots it is.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: USACAP on March 16, 2016, 01:43:59 AM
5.11 boots are worth all of $56.
Made in China...
And zippers? Really?

Quote from: bjf_55 on March 15, 2016, 04:25:29 PM
http://www.511tactical.com/atac-8-sage-boot.html (http://www.511tactical.com/atac-8-sage-boot.html)
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: SAREXinNY on March 16, 2016, 01:59:37 AM
Is there even talk about authorizing the sage boots? (I'm seriously asking, not being sarcastic)

Last I knew that wasn't even on the table.

(edited for grammar, because I can't type)
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: RogueLeader on March 16, 2016, 02:15:38 AM
Not that I've ever heard. I heard that they were specifically excluded from the proposal.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: PHall on March 16, 2016, 03:28:13 AM
Excluded for the two reasons given, cost and the fact that it helps make us look different from the Air Force fulfilling the requirements of AFI 10-2701.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: bjf_55 on March 16, 2016, 01:50:58 PM
Quote from: USACAP on March 16, 2016, 01:43:59 AM
5.11 boots are worth all of $56.
Made in China...
And zippers? Really?

Quote from: bjf_55 on March 15, 2016, 04:25:29 PM
http://www.511tactical.com/atac-8-sage-boot.html (http://www.511tactical.com/atac-8-sage-boot.html)

I've never had problems with the 511 boots I was issued for work but to each their own.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: jeders on March 16, 2016, 01:58:37 PM
I got a new pair of 5.11 boots last summer. They fit great and were incredibly comfortable right out of the box. Unfortunately, the plastic eyelets for the shoe laces broke after a week at NBB. Definitely not high quality.

Quote from: USACAP on March 16, 2016, 01:43:59 AM
5.11 boots are worth all of $56.
Made in China...
And zippers? Really?

The zippers were actually kind of nice to have, but they jammed before the eyelets broke.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: bjf_55 on March 16, 2016, 02:06:42 PM
Quote from: bjf_55 on March 15, 2016, 04:25:29 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on March 15, 2016, 04:04:03 PM
That all depends on what you mean by "junk".

If I got to get my 12 year old into boots that he/she is gonna out grow in a year.....I'll take the $50 junkers please.
If you are talking about me......I will spend the $150 to get a "good" pair that will last me for 10 years.

So there you go.

Also....do you got a link to those cheap sage green boots?

http://www.511tactical.com/atac-8-sage-boot.html (http://www.511tactical.com/atac-8-sage-boot.html)

Just to clarify my position, I was just giving an example of cheap green boots but don't really care either way if it is with back boots or not. I'll never wear the ABUs because I choose to have a beard and wear the BBDUs. I know most cadets love the idea of getting ABUs and are hoping they get them sooner than later. Luckily for the local squadron in my area the AFROTC unit has been trying to give us boxes of ABUs for years and if we take them there will be enough uniforms to issue all of the cadets 2 sets of complete ABU uniforms.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Holding Pattern on March 16, 2016, 04:21:06 PM
Quote from: SAREXinNY on March 16, 2016, 01:59:37 AM
Is there even talk about authorizing the sage boots? (I'm seriously asking, not being sarcastic)

Last I knew that wasn't even on the table.

(edited for grammar, because I can't type)

They aren't on the table at all. I don't know why we're even discussing them.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Nikos on March 16, 2016, 05:54:05 PM
I have been reading through this thread, and as one of the newer people here I find it interesting to say the least.  But, I have one question.  Could someone please tell me what a "smurf suit" is?  Thanks.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Angus on March 16, 2016, 06:00:09 PM
Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on March 16, 2016, 04:21:06 PM
Quote from: SAREXinNY on March 16, 2016, 01:59:37 AM
Is there even talk about authorizing the sage boots? (I'm seriously asking, not being sarcastic)

Last I knew that wasn't even on the table.

(edited for grammar, because I can't type)

They aren't on the table at all. I don't know why we're even discussing them.

Not everyone has seen the full text of the package.  So obviously people are guessing as to what's in it based off of ideas based on how Ma Blue wears ABU's and also how CAP could end up wearing them.  Plus even on page 1 of this thread which took place during the wear test both sage green and black boots are shown.  Which goes to theory that both ideas were floated about to see who it would work. 

That being said in the abstract I think that to the theories that sage green boots makes the difference as to tell us apart from AF is ridiculous, how often would people look between us and an active duty person and say "Hey I don't know who's who, I'd best look at their feet to tell them apart."
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Chappie on March 16, 2016, 06:06:43 PM
Quote from: Nikos on March 16, 2016, 05:54:05 PM
I have been reading through this thread, and as one of the newer people here I find it interesting to say the least.  But, I have one question.  Could someone please tell me what a "smurf suit" is?  Thanks.

It was an ultramarine flight suit that was phased out in 2009.  Here's a picture of it:

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/vintage-original-civil-air-patrol-505102378 (http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/vintage-original-civil-air-patrol-505102378)
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Holding Pattern on March 16, 2016, 07:00:55 PM
Quote from: Member Who on March 16, 2016, 06:00:09 PM
Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on March 16, 2016, 04:21:06 PM
Quote from: SAREXinNY on March 16, 2016, 01:59:37 AM
Is there even talk about authorizing the sage boots? (I'm seriously asking, not being sarcastic)

Last I knew that wasn't even on the table.

(edited for grammar, because I can't type)

They aren't on the table at all. I don't know why we're even discussing them.

Not everyone has seen the full text of the package.  So obviously people are guessing as to what's in it based off of ideas based on how Ma Blue wears ABU's and also how CAP could end up wearing them.  Plus even on page 1 of this thread which took place during the wear test both sage green and black boots are shown.  Which goes to theory that both ideas were floated about to see who it would work. 

That being said in the abstract I think that to the theories that sage green boots makes the difference as to tell us apart from AF is ridiculous, how often would people look between us and an active duty person and say "Hey I don't know who's who, I'd best look at their feet to tell them apart."

CAPNHQ sent an email explaining everything:

http://capmembers.bmetrack.com/c/v?e=8F6F84&c=2B380&l=E78D192 (http://capmembers.bmetrack.com/c/v?e=8F6F84&c=2B380&l=E78D192)

I'll requote it here: (adding bolds and underlines for important parts.)

Quote
Fellow members of the Civil Air Patrol:

The idea of Civil Air Patrol transitioning their Air Force style utility uniform from the BDU to the ABU, has been a topic of discussion in both official and unofficial circles for some time.

Previously, the decision was made to not pursue the ABU for CAP because the Air Force was considering phasing out the ABU. Recently, we were informed that the Air Force has no intention of phasing out the ABU in the near future. At that time, the decision was made to examine the possibility of CAP transitioning to the ABU, due to the increase in issues with BDU availability in some parts of the country. The National Uniform Committee was tasked with examining the issue.

It's important to remember that the Air Force Instruction governing our wear of the Air Force Uniform requires that our uniforms be easily distinguishable from Air Force Uniforms at a distance and at low light. This is accomplished through the use of distinctive insignia, name tapes, etc.

The National Uniform Committee, in coordination with CAP-USAF recommended that CAP ask for Air Force approval to wear the ABU with the following distinguishing modifications:

1.  Name and CAP tapes, aviation and specialty badges would be on a Navy Blue background with silver thread. These colors would be the same as currently in use on the NCO stripes. The NUC examined the possibility of using the ABU tapes. Because our adult members wear the same grade insignia as Air Force Officers, use of the ABU tapes was not considered to be distinguishable in accordance to the AFI. AFJROTC and AFROTC wear the ABU tapes, but they do not wear officer grade insignia. Wing, Unit, and Activity patches would be optional under the proposal.

2.  Black boots. There were many factors in our recommendation to retain the black boots. The first was cost to the membership. Many members already own black boots. Also, black boots are still available at reasonable prices commercially. The green boots cost over $100. Another consideration was asking members to buy a second pair of boots if they chose to wear other uniform combinations. The corporate (blue) uniform has black boots, as do the flight duty uniforms.  The final reason was the black boots provide a further distinguishing factor to the uniform.

Our final recommendation was to phase out the ultramarine blue tapes and insignia, and convert to the navy blue and silver tapes. These tapes better match the corporate BDU's and will eliminate the confusion caused by having two different color tapes.

As you have undoubtedly heard by now, our National Commander, Maj Gen Joseph Vazquez, sought the opinion of the CAP Command Council regarding the proposed changes. The Command Council overwhelmingly supported the change to the ABU. The proposal now goes to the Air Force for approval. As a reminder, the ABU Uniform for CAP is NOT approved yet.

The Command Council also recommended phasing out the ultramarine tapes in favor of the navy blue tapes on the Corporate BDU.

I hope this has answered your questions about how we arrived at our recommendations. If you have any further questions, I encourage you to address them with your chain of command. They have the most up to date information. Thank you.

Colonel Richard J. Greenwood, CAP
Chair, National Uniform Committee
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Angus on March 16, 2016, 07:18:32 PM
When did that email come out?  I never saw it.  However it does make the only point as to why I'd never think of the sage green boots, the cost. 

I will say though at the end the higher emphasis you put on us not being authorized to wear the uniform yet was unnecessary.  Especially considering, as I've stated previous in this thread I doubt that Ma Blue will ever authorize it.  They're going to keep us in BDUs for a while. However I do think they will at least agree to the change from ultramarine blue over to the navy blue with silver thread.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: RogueLeader on March 16, 2016, 07:32:59 PM
It came out on March 2nd.  If you use Gmail, it probably ended up in your Promotions tab.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Angus on March 16, 2016, 08:16:41 PM
Hmm, weird nothing there.  Might be that I had my email going through the native email app on my iPhone.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: PHall on March 17, 2016, 12:05:15 AM
The e-mail only went to members who have an e-mail address on file with National.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on March 17, 2016, 01:36:30 AM
Starfleet,

>:D

Not big enough!


:clap:
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Holding Pattern on March 17, 2016, 03:51:18 AM
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on March 17, 2016, 01:36:30 AM
Starfleet,

>:D

Not big enough!


:clap:

:D

To be fair, I also wanted to make the post noticeable enough so that when this question comes up again in 5 pages I can just do a quick scroll to find it...
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Angus on March 17, 2016, 12:49:43 PM
Quote from: PHall on March 17, 2016, 12:05:15 AM
The e-mail only went to members who have an e-mail address on file with National.

Been there done that, always had mine on file since I joined in 2005.   ;)  I've gotten a lot of other stuff from National too so I don't know what's up with not getting this one.  Maybe I'm just not one of the cool kids any more.   :o
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Storm Chaser on March 17, 2016, 12:59:21 PM
Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on March 16, 2016, 07:00:55 PM
As a reminder, the ABU Uniform for CAP is NOT approved yet.

Wait! The ABU is not approved yet?  :o >:D
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Angus on March 17, 2016, 01:30:24 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on March 17, 2016, 12:59:21 PM
Quote from: Starfleet Auxiliary on March 16, 2016, 07:00:55 PM
As a reminder, the ABU Uniform for CAP is NOT approved yet.

Wait! The ABU is not approved yet?  :o >:D

Nope won't be approved for us till Air Force transitions to a Starfleet type uniform.   >:D
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: -_adrian_- on March 17, 2016, 05:01:01 PM
Quote from: Nikos on March 16, 2016, 05:54:05 PM
I have been reading through this thread, and as one of the newer people here I find it interesting to say the least.  But, I have one question.  Could someone please tell me what a "smurf suit" is?  Thanks.
A Smurf suit is the Blue corp corporate BDU uniform.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: winterg on March 17, 2016, 05:02:34 PM
Quote from: -_adrian_- on March 17, 2016, 05:01:01 PM
Quote from: Nikos on March 16, 2016, 05:54:05 PM
I have been reading through this thread, and as one of the newer people here I find it interesting to say the least.  But, I have one question.  Could someone please tell me what a "smurf suit" is?  Thanks.
A Smurf suit is the Blue corp corporate BDU uniform.
Incorrect. The "smurf suit" was a blue jumpsuit no longer autorized in CAP. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: -_adrian_- on March 17, 2016, 05:08:12 PM
Quote from: winterg on March 17, 2016, 05:02:34 PM
Quote from: -_adrian_- on March 17, 2016, 05:01:01 PM
Quote from: Nikos on March 16, 2016, 05:54:05 PM
I have been reading through this thread, and as one of the newer people here I find it interesting to say the least.  But, I have one question.  Could someone please tell me what a "smurf suit" is?  Thanks.
A Smurf suit is the Blue corp corporate BDU uniform.
Incorrect. The "smurf suit" was a blue jumpsuit no longer autorized in CAP.
Oh sorry that's what I always thought it was.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: SMWOG on March 17, 2016, 05:23:19 PM
The smurf suit was one of the most inexpensive and practical uniforms we had. The combos that it had were fantastic. Boots,low quarters,flight cap,baseball cap.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: winterg on March 17, 2016, 05:26:02 PM
Quote from: SMWOG on March 17, 2016, 05:23:19 PM
The smurf suit was one of the most inexpensive and practical uniforms we had. The combos that it had were fantastic. Boots,low quarters,flight cap,baseball cap.
Who cares about practicality when you can have multiple specialized and costly uniform combinations that continually change? [emoji12]

Imagine if the smurf suit had remained in a more tolerable darker shade of blue? Talk about a comfy uniform. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Angus on March 17, 2016, 05:35:13 PM
Quote from: SMWOG on March 17, 2016, 05:23:19 PM
The smurf suit was one of the most inexpensive and practical uniforms we had. The combos that it had were fantastic. Boots,low quarters,flight cap,baseball cap.

It's a shame there was no giant white hat that came with it.   ;)
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Toad1168 on March 17, 2016, 05:47:58 PM
Quote from: Member Who on March 17, 2016, 05:35:13 PM
Quote from: SMWOG on March 17, 2016, 05:23:19 PM
The smurf suit was one of the most inexpensive and practical uniforms we had. The combos that it had were fantastic. Boots,low quarters,flight cap,baseball cap.

It's a shame there was no giant white hat that came with it.   ;)

Red for commanders  ;D
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on March 17, 2016, 05:48:13 PM
The new CAP song would have gone "Support your local CAP: Get la la la la la lost."
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on March 17, 2016, 05:53:16 PM
One day I was completely embarrassed as my uncle had given me a white watch cap. I wore it with the smurf suit to a SAREX or to a meeting. Someone made the connection. I had forgotten it...


Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Angus on March 17, 2016, 05:58:30 PM
Quote from: Toad1168 on March 17, 2016, 05:47:58 PM
Quote from: Member Who on March 17, 2016, 05:35:13 PM
Quote from: SMWOG on March 17, 2016, 05:23:19 PM
The smurf suit was one of the most inexpensive and practical uniforms we had. The combos that it had were fantastic. Boots,low quarters,flight cap,baseball cap.

It's a shame there was no giant white hat that came with it.   ;)

Red for commanders  ;D


Yellow for Wing Commanders.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Spaceman3750 on March 17, 2016, 06:31:39 PM
Quote from: Member Who on March 17, 2016, 05:58:30 PM
Quote from: Toad1168 on March 17, 2016, 05:47:58 PM
Quote from: Member Who on March 17, 2016, 05:35:13 PM
Quote from: SMWOG on March 17, 2016, 05:23:19 PM
The smurf suit was one of the most inexpensive and practical uniforms we had. The combos that it had were fantastic. Boots,low quarters,flight cap,baseball cap.

It's a shame there was no giant white hat that came with it.   ;)

Red for commanders  ;D


Yellow for Wing Commanders.

To match the chickens on the shoulders?

(http://images4.ravelry.com/uploads/garilynn/298671484/Bob_accepts_his_fate_wearing_Rubber_Chicken_hat_small2.jpg)
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Devil Doc on March 21, 2016, 12:37:12 PM
Wait.. Wait.. Wait... the ABU is now Approved... I should go out and buy $300 in ABUs and wear to my next Squadron meeting? am I doing this right?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on March 21, 2016, 01:01:57 PM
Quote from: Devil Doc on March 21, 2016, 12:37:12 PM
Wait.. Wait.. Wait... the ABU is now Approved... I should go out and buy $300 in ABUs and wear to my next Squadron meeting? am I doing this right?

No. No. And No.  >:D
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Angus on March 21, 2016, 01:12:50 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on March 21, 2016, 01:01:57 PM
Quote from: Devil Doc on March 21, 2016, 12:37:12 PM
Wait.. Wait.. Wait... the ABU is now Approved... I should go out and buy $300 in ABUs and wear to my next Squadron meeting? am I doing this right?

No. No. And No.  >:D

Well, he could but there's just no regulation supporting it so it would all be a metter of good guestimating based off the package.  But for all we know when the AF did approve it (I think it proves you know where froze over) they made some changes to the package. 
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Devil Doc on March 21, 2016, 01:21:17 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on March 21, 2016, 01:01:57 PM
Quote from: Devil Doc on March 21, 2016, 12:37:12 PM
Wait.. Wait.. Wait... the ABU is now Approved... I should go out and buy $300 in ABUs and wear to my next Squadron meeting? am I doing this right?

No. No. And No.  >:D

But.. But.. I'm a Captain..
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Angus on March 21, 2016, 01:37:28 PM
Quote from: Devil Doc on March 21, 2016, 01:21:17 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on March 21, 2016, 01:01:57 PM
Quote from: Devil Doc on March 21, 2016, 12:37:12 PM
Wait.. Wait.. Wait... the ABU is now Approved... I should go out and buy $300 in ABUs and wear to my next Squadron meeting? am I doing this right?

No. No. And No.  >:D

But.. But.. I'm a Captain..

That and $3.15 will get you a large Iced at Dunkin Donuts.  After all CAP runs on Dunkin.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on March 21, 2016, 03:22:37 PM
Quote from: Devil Doc on March 21, 2016, 12:37:12 PM
Wait.. Wait.. Wait... the ABU is now Approved... I should go out and buy $300 in ABUs and wear to my next Squadron meeting? am I doing this right?

Show me the authority.  The guidance.

Once you have those, the world is your oyster.

(BTW, a snappie of a slide from a region conference constitutes neither authority nor guidance.  Nor does a post on CAPTalk.  CAPM 39-1, or a relevant ICL to same, however, is a different matter. )
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Devil Doc on March 21, 2016, 04:42:39 PM
Quote from: NIN on March 21, 2016, 03:22:37 PM
Quote from: Devil Doc on March 21, 2016, 12:37:12 PM
Wait.. Wait.. Wait... the ABU is now Approved... I should go out and buy $300 in ABUs and wear to my next Squadron meeting? am I doing this right?

Show me the authority.  The guidance.

Once you have those, the world is your oyster.

(BTW, a snappie of a slide from a region conference constitutes neither authority nor guidance.  Nor does a post on CAPTalk.  CAPM 39-1, or a relevant ICL to same, however, is a different matter. )

Cmon Darrin... I went to Hawk Mountain Ranger School... I know what im doing.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: ironputts on March 21, 2016, 04:43:32 PM
It is time to end this discussion.......till the next uniform discussion...signing off.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: AlphaSigOU on March 21, 2016, 07:47:34 PM
Quote from: AngusW on March 21, 2016, 01:37:28 PMThat and $3.15 will get you a large Iced at Dunkin Donuts.  After all CAP runs on Dunkin.

Or if you are south of the Mason-Dixon Line, it's Krispy Kreme... :D
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on March 21, 2016, 07:51:09 PM
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on March 21, 2016, 07:47:34 PM
Quote from: AngusW on March 21, 2016, 01:37:28 PMThat and $3.15 will get you a large Iced at Dunkin Donuts.  After all CAP runs on Dunkin.

Or if you are south of the Mason-Dixon Line, it's Krispy Kreme... :D

Krispy Kreme, sweet tea and Chik-Fil-A(or KFC in some areas, YMMV). Life is good.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: RogueLeader on March 21, 2016, 07:55:23 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on March 21, 2016, 07:51:09 PM
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on March 21, 2016, 07:47:34 PM
Quote from: AngusW on March 21, 2016, 01:37:28 PMThat and $3.15 will get you a large Iced at Dunkin Donuts.  After all CAP runs on Dunkin.

Or if you are south of the Mason-Dixon Line, it's Krispy Kreme... :D

Krispy Kreme, sweet tea and Chik-Fil-A(or KFC in some areas, YMMV). Life is good.

Too much of any or all of those, and not enough work/metabolism will result in the BBDU for you.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on March 21, 2016, 08:15:32 PM
Quote from: RogueLeader on March 21, 2016, 07:55:23 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on March 21, 2016, 07:51:09 PM
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on March 21, 2016, 07:47:34 PM
Quote from: AngusW on March 21, 2016, 01:37:28 PMThat and $3.15 will get you a large Iced at Dunkin Donuts.  After all CAP runs on Dunkin.

Or if you are south of the Mason-Dixon Line, it's Krispy Kreme... :D

Krispy Kreme, sweet tea and Chik-Fil-A(or KFC in some areas, YMMV). Life is good.

Too much of any or all of those, and not enough work/metabolism will result in the BBDU for you.

Yep. Hardest part for me over the last 3 months was to drop my XL cream and sugar. Now it's just creme, sometimes not even a coffee at all. 2-3 of those a day was 120g of sugar...
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: THRAWN on March 21, 2016, 08:25:26 PM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on March 21, 2016, 08:15:32 PM
Quote from: RogueLeader on March 21, 2016, 07:55:23 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on March 21, 2016, 07:51:09 PM
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on March 21, 2016, 07:47:34 PM
Quote from: AngusW on March 21, 2016, 01:37:28 PMThat and $3.15 will get you a large Iced at Dunkin Donuts.  After all CAP runs on Dunkin.

Or if you are south of the Mason-Dixon Line, it's Krispy Kreme... :D

Krispy Kreme, sweet tea and Chik-Fil-A(or KFC in some areas, YMMV). Life is good.

Too much of any or all of those, and not enough work/metabolism will result in the BBDU for you.

Yep. Hardest part for me over the last 3 months was to drop my XL cream and sugar. Now it's just creme, sometimes not even a coffee at all. 2-3 of those a day was 120g of sugar...

Zounds, that's a lot. How's that working for you? I recently went over to tea (pinky out and all...) with no sugar. Bridey and I are going to try a sugar fast at the beginning of next month. A guy in my office had some good success with that, so we figured we'd give it a shot...
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: CAPDCCMOM on March 21, 2016, 08:29:35 PM
Watch out for the sugar numbers on the "Creamer" too, it is huge. Only black coffee has zero calories
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Angus on March 21, 2016, 08:32:46 PM
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on March 21, 2016, 07:47:34 PM
Quote from: AngusW on March 21, 2016, 01:37:28 PMThat and $3.15 will get you a large Iced at Dunkin Donuts.  After all CAP runs on Dunkin.

Or if you are south of the Mason-Dixon Line, it's Krispy Kreme... :D

I thought Dunkin has made some good in roads down that way.  It's been awhile since I've been in the deep south.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Garibaldi on March 21, 2016, 08:39:33 PM
Quote from: AngusW on March 21, 2016, 08:32:46 PM
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on March 21, 2016, 07:47:34 PM
Quote from: AngusW on March 21, 2016, 01:37:28 PMThat and $3.15 will get you a large Iced at Dunkin Donuts.  After all CAP runs on Dunkin.

Or if you are south of the Mason-Dixon Line, it's Krispy Kreme... :D

I thought Dunkin has made some good in roads down that way.  It's been awhile since I've been in the deep south.

Wee gotz tha Dunkin' down hurr. Ain't near close to popular as KK, but it's near nuff good
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on March 21, 2016, 09:59:53 PM
Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on March 21, 2016, 08:29:35 PM
Watch out for the sugar numbers on the "Creamer" too, it is huge. Only black coffee has zero calories

Cream, not sweetened creamer.

The weight loss is slow and sporadic, but I'm invested to see it through.
Title: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Storm Chaser on March 22, 2016, 11:03:33 AM
Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on March 21, 2016, 09:59:53 PM
Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on March 21, 2016, 08:29:35 PM
Watch out for the sugar numbers on the "Creamer" too, it is huge. Only black coffee has zero calories

Cream, not sweetened creamer.

The weight loss is slow and sporadic, but I'm invested to see it through.

I was able to lose 19 pounds in less than three months by cutting sugar and reducing carbs. It was hard to get used to drinking coffee with half and half only, but I've gotten used to it. Best part, my uniform fits better now.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on March 22, 2016, 11:53:15 AM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on March 22, 2016, 11:03:33 AM
I was able to lose 19 pounds in less than three months by cutting sugar and reducing carbs. It was hard to get used to drinking coffee with half and half only, but I've gotten used to it. Best part, my uniform fits better now.

November 2011, I was 237 lbs.
July 2012 I was 212.
Busted 200 in late August, finally hit 185 around Halloween.

I have been hovering between 183 and 190 since then.  Just about right.

Did several things that were less "dietetic" and more "lifestyle".

1) Drank more water. Lots more water.  Like 32-48 oz more a day.
2) Ate three meals a day.  A legit breakfast (cereal with yogurt, etc), a small lunch and a sensible dinner.
3) Stopped eating out 4-5 days a week.  (This was more budget than waistline, but it helped both!  It was probably 75% of my weight control problems. Portion control at restaurants is awful)
4) Shifted the balance of carbs and protein away from "Carb heavy" (mmm, carbs..) Things like "instead of getting two cheeseburgers, get 1 double cheeseburger. Still the same meat, but 1/2 the bun."
5) Eliminated nearly all "added sugar" from my diet.  Coffee was cream only.  I only add sugar to recipes when I have to, and if its something I can get away without, I will.  (Here in New England, the default Dunkin' Donuts coffee configuration is "regular": cream and sugar. The first time you watch them put the sugar in a "regular" coffee you'll be surprised your teeth haven't rotted out of your head just from watching. As a friend once said "Of course people like Dunkin's coffee. You put that much cream and sugar in anything and people will like it..")
6) Knocked off soda.  Like cold turkey.  Done.  Definitely not regular (see above about sugar), and I even stopped diet soda flat.  As a good friend would say "There is nothing in there your body needs.." EVERY time I've started drinking soda a little, especially diet soda, I put weight on.  Every time.   That stuff is not helpful to your body's chemistry.
7) Took snack food right out of the house. Gone.  No chips, pretzels, etc.  You want "idle snacking food?" Here's an apple.
8 ) Started going to bed earlier.  This is a funny one.  I noticed that if I stayed up late, I had a tendency to eat things after 9pm.  If I went to bed at 9:30 or 10pm, my body wasn't demanding fuel to keep going.  If I stayed up to 12:30 or 1am, my body would demand additional energy, so I'd munch on things.  Bad news.

I hate exercise.  I guess I just don't like to get sweaty.

I once had Ned tell me he'd burned like 600 calories running for an hour or something (oh, I hate running...ugh). 

I replied "Instead of burning 600 calories and wasting an hour beating up my undercarriage, I won't eat that 600 calorie Big Mac meal."

Don't get me wrong: exercise has its place. You still need it.  But my philosophy is "I can't always exercise to burn calories, but I am always going to have to eat."

So if I can keep control of what I'm jamming in my gob, maybe I don't have to worry so much about burning it off.

That said, these days I keep things under control by eating vegetable heavy meals (my fiancee is very health conscious) several days a week.

Things I did not give up: Coffee, Pizza and (cadets, cover your eyes) beer (good beer, not the crap you find stacked the end of the aisle in the supermarket).  I jokingly say that my diet is designed so I don't have to give those things up. :)
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on March 22, 2016, 03:26:46 PM
I've been seeing very interesting muscles develop from my 2-3/week sessions at the small group training. I'm sure I've actually packed on a good amount of muscle on top of the fat loss, but I'm about to start cutting a 'hole lotta suguh, which unfortunately means bye bye fruits, and sticking to my Protein + Veggies + Fats, and absolutely minimal sugar.

I'm 5'10", and plan on hitting 200 before re-evaluating my next steps (the body composition scale is WONKY, put my lean mass at 180, so according to that, at ~200 I should be at 10% BF, but unless I've been strong-manning it in my sleep, I've got my doubts. )
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Ned on March 22, 2016, 03:49:48 PM
Quote from: NIN on March 22, 2016, 11:53:15 AM

I once had Ned tell me he'd burned like 600 calories running for an hour or something (oh, I hate running...ugh). 

I replied "Instead of burning 600 calories and wasting an hour beating up my undercarriage, I won't eat that 600 calorie Big Mac meal."

Dude, what I  actually said (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=16888.msg304616#msg304616) in 2013 was:

Quote from: Ned
We all need to be fit, of course.  And frequent exercise is critical.

But exercise is not all that helpful if one's goal is to lose weight.  Losing weight is really about nutrition.

I am a bit of a runner, perhaps slightly more than some seniors.  My usual run is 11 miles or so in a little over 90 minutes.  According to my magic running computer, I burn about 1250 calories doing that.

By an amazing coincidence a Big Mac, medium fries, & medium Coke is almost exactly 1200 calories.

It takes me about two hours to run, cool down, shower, etc.  It takes me exactly 0.00 minutes to not eat a Big Mac and fries.

Clearly, it is much more efficient to not eat the junk in the first place rather than it is to try and "run it off" on the trail or treadmill.

(And a Big Mac is nowhere near the worst offender on the Mickey Dee's menu. )



(Today's lunch was salmon shioyaki, rice, a salad, and green tea.  Mmmm.)

Give proper credit to your elders, please.   8)


(ran the Hellyer Half Marathon on Sunday in 2:05.  Managed to fall arse-over-teakettle on the trail, finished with road rash and wounded pride.  Getting old is hell.)


Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on March 22, 2016, 03:53:22 PM
Half Marathon? You're about 12 miles over my abilities as is!
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: NIN on March 22, 2016, 04:16:36 PM
Quote from: Ned on March 22, 2016, 03:49:48 PM
Give proper credit to your elders, please.   8)

OK: "For an old guy, you have a heck of a memory."

:)
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: USACAP on March 24, 2016, 01:33:56 AM
The actual scale, as in the one you stand on, or the tables the military uses? :)
If you look at who/what the commercial bodyfat scales are calibrated for, then yes - the number you're getting is all wrong.
The military tables are way off too...

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on March 22, 2016, 03:26:46 PM
the body composition scale is WONKY ...
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on March 24, 2016, 02:52:04 PM
Quote from: USACAP on March 24, 2016, 01:33:56 AM
The actual scale, as in the one you stand on, or the tables the military uses? :)
If you look at who/what the commercial bodyfat scales are calibrated for, then yes - the number you're getting is all wrong.
The military tables are way off too...

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on March 22, 2016, 03:26:46 PM
the body composition scale is WONKY ...


It's a fancy digital scale where he inputs my "numbers", and it spews out a whole bunch of numbers in return. Some months I'm down fat, up muscle, others I'm down muscle, up fat. Go figure.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Jester on March 29, 2016, 01:55:39 PM
I was going through some stuff the other day and found my old green fleece and it got me thinking. Any idea if it will be or was included in the proposal?
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: RogueLeader on March 29, 2016, 02:09:57 PM
I haven't heard or seen anything either way.

Based off of past questions about it, likely not.  I would like to see it included though.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: kwe1009 on March 29, 2016, 02:17:34 PM
Quote from: Jester on March 29, 2016, 01:55:39 PM
I was going through some stuff the other day and found my old green fleece and it got me thinking. Any idea if it will be or was included in the proposal?

I don't think that it is up to the AF what color jackets we wear.  We have to get permission for the actual uniform for a variety of reasons.  I believe that it is completely CAP's call on the color of authorized fleece.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: Storm Chaser on March 29, 2016, 02:18:00 PM
Quote from: RogueLeader on March 29, 2016, 02:09:57 PM
I haven't heard or seen anything either way.

Based off of past questions about it, likely not.  I would like to see it included though.

I don't why it wouldn't be approved. Once the ABU is authorized, a list of approved accessories and outer garments will be announced as well.
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: RogueLeader on March 29, 2016, 02:24:51 PM
Quote from: kwe1009 on March 29, 2016, 02:17:34 PM
Quote from: Jester on March 29, 2016, 01:55:39 PM
I was going through some stuff the other day and found my old green fleece and it got me thinking. Any idea if it will be or was included in the proposal?

I don't think that it is up to the AF what color jackets we wear.  We have to get permission for the actual uniform for a variety of reasons.  I believe that it is completely CAP's call on the color of authorized fleece.

It is up to the AF to approve/disapprove whatever we want for uniforms, so it is not entirely CAPs call on what color fleece we wear.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on March 29, 2016, 02:18:00 PM
Quote from: RogueLeader on March 29, 2016, 02:09:57 PM
I haven't heard or seen anything either way.

Based off of past questions about it, likely not.  I would like to see it included though.

I don't why it wouldn't be approved. Once the ABU is authorized, a list of approved accessories and outer garments will be announced as well.

Just going off of previous history of the green fleece, and its just my opinion.  YMMV <shrugs>
Title: Re: ABU Wear Test
Post by: lordmonar on March 29, 2016, 03:01:15 PM
When the last 39-1 was in Draft....the ABUs were included........including the gray/green fleece coat.    I would assume that it will be included in the package sent to the AF for approval.

Of course the USAF could disapprove the fleece...but I can't see any reason why they would do so.