Legal Rights in "Foggy-Bottom"

[a2capt]

If an issue is explosive enough, the member in question will likely get out of CAP, not just go to another squadron.

As you can see from the above scenario.. funny that, too. I swear, NIN must be a past CC that I've worked with.. because that story is just so .. familiar.


Because it plays out in many different places and times. Like a busted record.

[West MI-CAP-Ret]

Didn't want to get into the boilerplate of what the issues are.  However,  it would help to give some historical context. 

First, I'm a special and unique case (besides what my moma says😙).  I have multiple sclerosis.  A year ago I had a "dust up" with my group DC's wife, whom was my commander at the local level.  The outgoing Grp cmdr did nothing to solve the impasse (like get both parties in a room and mediate a solution).  So, a two-month suspension turned into a seven month suspension, with the new Grp cmdr inviting the Wg cmdr to participating in a mediated meeting with me, the cc whom suspended me and the new Grp cmdr (the Wg/CC got involved when the outgoing Grp/CC wrote me, suggesting since being a multiple sclerosis (MS) patient, I should consider retiring, because CAP mbrs can be called out on ES missions on a moments notice.-even @ the time I had an admin rating).  At the meeting the Wg cmdr asked me what were my failures and how could I have done things differently?  I shared I should have done a better job in communication.  Finally, I was offered a choice: go to another Sqdrn or join Grp.  I chose Grp.  The Wg cmdr wisely ask me to get a list of MS limitations fm my doctor.  This is where we are.  Now, the dpty CC says that according to the mediated settlement, my only choices was either work with Grp, or be xfrd to the inactive Sqdrn at Wg.  I certainly remember things differently.  As you can see, "the waters are muddy". 

I assume the wise and professional thing to do is see what the Grp CC wants to do?

[capmaj]

As in most things in life, the adage applies..............  " If it ain't in writing, it didn't happen!"  Do you have anything in writing as to what decisions came out of your previous meetings?

[EMT-83]

Forced to retire because of a disability? Have these people heard about CAPR 36-1 and 36-2?

[NC Hokie]

So, a two-month suspension turned into a seven month suspension...

How, exactly, did that happen?  If you weren't suspected of cadet abuse or fighting membership termination, CAPR 35-1 limits suspension to a maximum of 180 days.

Wg/CC got involved when the outgoing Grp/CC wrote me, suggesting since being a multiple sclerosis (MS) patient, I should consider retiring, because CAP mbrs can be called out on ES missions on a moments notice.

Looks like written evidence of a CAPR 39-2 violation to me.  Although no overt action was taken, the suggestion to leave because of your disability meets the definition of discrimination.

Now, the dpty CC says that according to the mediated settlement, my only choices was either work with Grp, or be xfrd to the inactive Sqdrn at Wg.  I certainly remember things differently.

"Sir, my recollection of the settlement disagrees with yours. Do you have any documentation to support your recollection?"

[Storm Chaser]

Didn't want to get into the boilerplate of what the issues are.  However,  it would help to give some historical context. 

First, I'm a special and unique case (besides what my moma says😙).  I have multiple sclerosis.  A year ago I had a "dust up" with my group DC's wife, whom was my commander at the local level.  The outgoing Grp cmdr did nothing to solve the impasse (like get both parties in a room and mediate a solution).  So, a two-month suspension turned into a seven month suspension, with the new Grp cmdr inviting the Wg cmdr to participating in a mediated meeting with me, the cc whom suspended me and the new Grp cmdr (the Wg/CC got involved when the outgoing Grp/CC wrote me, suggesting since being a multiple sclerosis (MS) patient, I should consider retiring, because CAP mbrs can be called out on ES missions on a moments notice.-even @ the time I had an admin rating).  At the meeting the Wg cmdr asked me what were my failures and how could I have done things differently?  I shared I should have done a better job in communication.  Finally, I was offered a choice: go to another Sqdrn or join Grp.  I chose Grp.  The Wg cmdr wisely ask me to get a list of MS limitations fm my doctor.  This is where we are.  Now, the dpty CC says that according to the mediated settlement, my only choices was either work with Grp, or be xfrd to the inactive Sqdrn at Wg.  I certainly remember things differently.  As you can see, "the waters are muddy". 

I assume the wise and professional thing to do is see what the Grp CC wants to do?

If you haven't discuss this with the group commander, I recommend that you do that immediately. He, not the deputy, should be handling this situation.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Forced to retire because of a disability? Have these people heard about CAPR 36-1 and 36-2?

Indeed. 

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R036_001_D6D80CB431788.pdf

[West MI-CAP-Ret]

Problem Resolved.  It was suggest that I speak with the Grp CC.  If I had sense, I'd of called Monday.  Now things have been resolved through conversation.

My posting was a sincere request for procedures but it's still a lazy way to do it.  I'll download the legal and personnel issue this latest flap almost turned into.  By talking with all concerned,  misunderstandings and assumptions were cleared up.

[NIN]

Problem Resolved.  It was suggest that I speak with the Grp CC.  If I had sense, I'd of called Monday.  Now things have been resolved through conversation.

My posting was a sincere request for procedures but it's still a lazy way to do it.  I'll download the legal and personnel issue this latest flap almost turned into.  By talking with all concerned,  misunderstandings and assumptions were cleared up.

Yay!

[a2capt]

Easy-peasy.

"ES people can be called out on a moments notice", and that's one of the great things about this organization.  You can say "No, I can't go". you're not ordered to do anything. so that's a lame presumption.  Everyone can contribute as much or as little they're able to, or in ways that they can, someone has to do admin for all that ground pounding, someone needs to talk to them over the radio, etc.

If someone on the receiving end is that daft that they won't take -any- help from someone because they're not "capable" (their words) of "doing everything", well that's their loss.

[NIN]

If an issue is explosive enough, the member in question will likely get out of CAP, not just go to another squadron.

As you can see from the above scenario.. funny that, too. I swear, NIN must be a past CC that I've worked with.. because that story is just so .. familiar.


Because it plays out in many different places and times. Like a busted record.

Past CC? In a good way or a bad way? 

[SarDragon]

Gotta be good. I know some of the bad ones he's had to deal with.

[Brit_in_CAP]

Easy-peasy.

"ES people can be called out on a moments notice", and that's one of the great things about this organization.  You can say "No, I can't go". you're not ordered to do anything. so that's a lame presumption.  Everyone can contribute as much or as little they're able to, or in ways that they can, someone has to do admin for all that ground pounding, someone needs to talk to them over the radio, etc.

If someone on the receiving end is that daft that they won't take -any- help from someone because they're not "capable" (their words) of "doing everything", well that's their loss.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Nicely said!

[Brit_in_CAP]

Problem Resolved.  It was suggest that I speak with the Grp CC.  If I had sense, I'd of called Monday.  Now things have been resolved through conversation.

My posting was a sincere request for procedures but it's still a lazy way to do it.  I'll download the legal and personnel issue this latest flap almost turned into.  By talking with all concerned,  misunderstandings and assumptions were cleared up.

Good; I'm please for you and that sense prevailed!

[NIN]

Gotta be good. I know some of the bad ones he's had to deal with.

See this is the issue I see sometimes in CAP (and I'm not pointing fingers at a soul in this thread, FYI, I'm saying over the course of the last 33 years associated with CAP I've seen this)

You get well-meaning and well-intending members who work within their ability (ie. they have a disability, or schedule/kid constraints).  They can't do CAP 24x7 or 8x5 or even 2 x 2.  But they can be there one week out of 4 or 2 weeks out of 5 or something.  You find a niche and let them work it.  But you don't over assign them, either, and you may have to have a difficult conversation about requirements/needs versus abilities and capabilities.

I had a gent many years ago who was a super nice guy, very motivated and dedicated.  He was, unfortunately, not well educated, had a few cognitive and physical issues and tended to over-commit / over-volunteer himself and then not be able to perform.  Was he the guy you could station at the door of the mission base to check people in? Yes. Every day.  Was he the guy you were going to make your squadron finance officer or ES Ground Team leader? Probably not.  (He didn't have a HS diploma or GED when he joined. I recall that years ago "high school diploma" was a qualifying factor for rank, but maybe I'm on crack because I don't see it except for professional appointments, etc. Could be my crappy remembery..) 

You have to assign people within their capabilities and abilities, or have a plan to address why not within the context of the rules and regulations.

OTOH, we also have people who rise to a level of capability within the organization that might be a notch or two above where they should be.  They don't necessarily have the people skills, background, management touch, whatever, to do the job they're suddenly thrust into (or actively sought out).  And they're often there not because they were an "awesome choice," but rather because they were the last man (woman) standing and thus the "last choice" and their abilities were secondary to their availability. (ie. they've never been "in charge" of anything before, or nobody would legitimately put them in charge of something due to a distinct lack of soft skills, abilities, etc. But they've been a person who shows up regularly or has stuck around one way or another.)

Sometimes these people have a little bit of "power" that goes to their heads and they run roughshod over thing.  Sometimes they're just "benign/benevolent dictators." 

And again, lets talk about the difficult conversations that people at higher echelons *didn't* have with these people beforehand.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

You get well-meaning and well-intending members who work within their ability (ie. they have a disability, or schedule/kid constraints).  They can't do CAP 24x7 or 8x5 or even 2 x 2.  But they can be there one week out of 4 or 2 weeks out of 5 or something.  You find a niche and let them work it.  But you don't over assign them, either, and you may have to have a difficult conversation about requirements/needs versus abilities and capabilities.

You have to assign people within their capabilities and abilities, or have a plan to address why not within the context of the rules and regulations.

OTOH, we also have people who rise to a level of capability within the organization that might be a notch or two above where they should be.  They don't necessarily have the people skills, background, management touch, whatever, to do the job they're suddenly thrust into (or actively sought out).

I have been struggling with these very things for almost a year (and Eclipse, respectfully, I know your feelings on this).

1.  I have a documented disability which limits my physical presence at the unit.

2.  My capabilities and abilities, or more accurately utilising them, can vary from week to week or even day to day.

3.  As an extreme introvert I lack so-called people skills.  I am not going to apologise for that; it is just the way I am.  I am not rude or impolite but am very bad in social settings.

It is frustrating to know that, being a member of an organisation I have been part of for roughly 20 years, that I have basically hit a wall and am a hamster running on a wheel for the three reasons enumerated.

I consider myself an intelligent person.  Not an intellectual, but intelligent certainly - both "book smarts" and the School of Hard Knocks.  I have been a "leader" before - going back to childhood, I was a Senior Patrol Leader and then Junior Assistant Scoutmaster in the BSA, and have supervised student assistants at a college I worked for.  However, my "leadership style" is to basically let subordinates develop while limiting my role to advising when needed and admonishing (gently at first) if they push the envelope (which has thankfully not happened much; I was blessed).

There has got to be a way for people who have inner capabilities to advance within the organisation without necessarily having the stereotypical outer "people skills" (I hate that term because it implies that having them corresponds with degrees of extraversion).

However, I do not know what they are.

[West MI-CAP-Ret]

It looks like noting was resolved.  The group commander in question is a very good, accomplished, former cadet Lt. Col.  His actions could simply be something being forced upon him.

BTW.  What really impresses me about this group is its professionalism.  Too many light-colonels or senior officers to put up with "winning, sniveling malcontents."  I've seen people called out for words that seemed like veiled or overt attacks against the Civil Air Patrol, other members, their chain of command, or all of the above. 

No one has done this too me.  Only constructive and respectful (i.e. professional) advice... except one person.  Rather than confront me, this person called my group commander, and reported me with the words "I believe you've got an officer "dissing you!" so my group CC called, and he was friendly, and simply stated its a free country, and our words are just words.  Just remove anything that would identify our group by name and unit ID.

Well, first, I've been accused (but never proven) to be a bomb-thrower to believe that words don't matter to this organization (and to a degree, I'm not sure that is a bad thing, since having posts attack and complain would bog down what this blog is trying to do).

So, I've got enough replies to know whom I can write a private email to.

To the "officer" who reported me to my boss, with anything sounding like "I think" in the sentence, was unfair to the group commander and me.  Obviously you don't see it that way, but frankly, what is your friend supposed to do with your words, since you didn't include what I wrote (which sees to me to find fault with the deputy group CC (husband of the officer which put me out on a two-month suspension that ended up being resolved by our state's wing commander, seven months later).

[Eclipse]

Just remove anything that would identify our group by name and unit ID.

((*cough*)) Signature  ((*cough*)) profile...

[a2capt]

Matters not, even if it's edited/removed. Even if it was never there.