Legal Rights in "Foggy-Bottom"

[West MI-CAP-Ret]

Rather than muddling the question with extraneous facts, I have a question.  Does the command staff of a unit, have a legal right to threaten a senior with the "ether / or" choice of either stay in your group job assignment or be placed in a 100 unit at wing hq  (my understanding of where you send seniors that pay dues, but don't come to squadron meetings).

There is a lot more to this tale, and I'd love to share it with someone who knows either personnel assignments or jag manuals.

Warmly,
Dave fm west Michigan

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

First of all, we do not have "JAG manuals" to the best of my knowledge, since we are not under the UCMJ.  However, we do have legal officers, and you would do worse than to contact one.

Even if the CC "has the right," doing such a thing is quite immature and not a way to retain quality people.

[Eclipse]

Not sure on the question.

You can't force a member to stay somewhere they don't want to, but no unit CC is compelled to take a member they don't want.

If the question is "be active or go to 000", that happens all the time, but there's nothing stopping the member from
moving to a unit, doing his safety every month and sitting quietly.

[West MI-CAP-Ret]

Rather that request a meeting with the wing and group commander, I've asked for a meeting with one of wing's legal officers.  I don't want to write directly to anyone in wing.

[Eclipse]

Rather that request a meeting with the wing and group commander, I've asked for a meeting with one of wing's legal officers.  I don't want to write directly to anyone in wing.

Mistake #1 - address it directly and with the people making the decision, don't dance around.

Unless you're signing a contract, the Legal officer has nothing to say about it and will likely be clueless.
There's also no anonymity.

[LSThiker]

Can you repeat the question a little more clearly?

Are you saying that a commander is saying you either stay in your group assignment or transfer to the 000 squadron?  Is this a unit commander, group commander or wing commander? 

If it is a unit commander, he is not required to take you into his/her unit.

[RiverAux]

Do CAP lawyers even have any special training in CAP regulations? 

In any case, this isn't a question for them anyway.  Chain of command all the way.

[Eclipse]

Do CAP lawyers even have any special training in CAP regulations?

Not to my knowledge.   Their role is contract negotiations and protecting the corporation from external and internal liability.

[a2capt]

Again?

[capmaj]

This might be of interest to you.

CAPR 39-2, Para 1, Sec 11, Sub para b........  ' Commanders may initiate transfers for those members under their command to other units
under their command. In the event a member objects to such transfer, the request will be forwarded
to the commander of the next higher echelon for final decision.'

[Private Investigator]

Does the command staff of a unit, have a legal right to threaten a senior with the "ether / or" choice of either stay in your group job assignment or be placed in a 100 unit at wing hq ...

Dave I am guessing this has to do with PA# 14-01. I have been on Group Staff a few times and on two different occassions the new Group Commanders asked me to leave. So once I went to Wing and the other time to a Squadron. On a sidenote both of those Group Commanders got fired. So if you are having fun in CAP look for a friendlier home Unit, JMHO, YMMV.   

[a2capt]

Just like the Wing Conference admission being given to cadets, there has to be more to this. But the basic question is answered, yes a CC can transfer you, yes you can protest it, to the next CC in line.

[Garibaldi]

Just like the Wing Conference admission being given to cadets, there has to be more to this. But the basic question is answered, yes a CC can transfer you, yes you can protest it, to the next CC in line.

I was told there is a place in e-services where the losing commander can deny a transfer. No reason has to be given.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I was told there is a place in e-services where the losing commander can deny a transfer. No reason has to be given.

There is, and it is a stupid concept as far as I am concerned.

Why would a CC use it, other than to make the member requesting transfer stay in a place where s/he is miserable (which will probably lead to a heated conflict between member and commander, followed by the member's saying "up an afterburner with you and with CAP," and quitting), or just to show the CC can do it.

Those cases would reflect much more on the member than on the commander.

I have never been a unit CC, though I have been a Deputy Commander.  My personal outlook is that if a member wanted to move to another unit where s/he felt more fulfilled/happy, etc., I would not stand in the way of it.  Nothing would be gained by invoking that.

[arajca]

The main reason for the losing commander being able to deny a transfer out is if the member is involved in an investigation or has had a negative action started but it hasn't been processed by National. Or so I've been told.

[Eclipse]

Why would a CC use it, other than to make the member requesting transfer stay in a place where s/he is miserable (which will probably lead to a heated conflict between member and commander, followed by the member's saying "up an afterburner with you and with CAP," and quitting), or just to show the CC can do it.

The main reason for the losing commander being able to deny a transfer out is if the member is involved in an investigation or has had a negative action started but it hasn't been processed by National. Or so I've been told.

Yep - the last thing you want is troublesome members shopping units to try and propagate their nonsense or avoid disciplinary action.
And a good CC does not visit his problems on others.

This is especially an issue in border areas where I've seen members hop wings back and forth because of personality issues
and other nonsense.

[Alaric]

I'm fortunate in that I've never had this invoked as I've only moved due to work.  As those are usually moves of 1000+ miles, I'd be quite annoyed of my Alabama squadron commander had not allowed me to transfer to Illinois or Illinois not to transfer to Connecticut.  After all that would be one hell of a commute

[a2capt]

My comment was that the -current- commander can also initiate the transfer of you -out- of the unit, and if you don't like it, you can protest to -their- commander.

This is different than the losing commander rejecting a plucking transfer out, where the member goes to another unit and those people initiate a transfer.

That would be where, say, the member is involved in an issue that is about to explode, so they try to get out of Dodge fast. 

Three meetings, for both new and transfers. Why are you in such a hurry to transfer is a great starting question.
When they start ripping on their prior unit to no end, maybe the problem is in the mirror, too.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Yep - the last thing you want is troublesome members shopping units to try and propagate their nonsense or avoid disciplinary action.
And a good CC does not visit his problems on others.

This is especially an issue in border areas where I've seen members hop wings back and forth because of personality issues
and other nonsense.

Then the gaining commander has a responsibility to evaluate his/her new member before taking them on.  For the losing commander to withhold consent to transfer is just likely to breed resentment.

Personality issues...yes.  Sometimes there are units where a member and a CC just do not "click," and they are not going to get along no matter what.  Is it good for unit morale to forcibly keep someone that you hate/hates you?

That would be where, say, the member is involved in an issue that is about to explode, so they try to get out of Dodge fast. 

If an issue is explosive enough, the member in question will likely get out of CAP, not just go to another squadron.

[NIN]

Yep - the last thing you want is troublesome members shopping units to try and propagate their nonsense or avoid disciplinary action.
And a good CC does not visit his problems on others.

This is especially an issue in border areas where I've seen members hop wings back and forth because of personality issues
and other nonsense.

Then the gaining commander has a responsibility to evaluate his/her new member before taking them on.  For the losing commander to withhold consent to transfer is just likely to breed resentment.

Personality issues...yes.  Sometimes there are units where a member and a CC just do not "click," and they are not going to get along no matter what.  Is it good for unit morale to forcibly keep someone that you hate/hates you?

That would be where, say, the member is involved in an issue that is about to explode, so they try to get out of Dodge fast. 

If an issue is explosive enough, the member in question will likely get out of CAP, not just go to another squadron.

Oh, gosh, I wish it was that easy.

Having spent about 10 years off-and-on as a commander, its not nearly that easy.

All too often, people have "personality conflicts" with others. Either they're goofy, or the people in charge are.  Either way, there are issues that don't always rise to the level of disciplinary action or whatever.

As a commander, I've had people come to me and say "I want to transfer to your unit."

My first thought is "Why?"

Especially when a person lives 3 miles from their current unit and they want to transfer to a unit that is a 40 mile drive or something.

When I was a squadron commander from 1999 to 2004, I had 7-8 cadets and/or seniors come to me about transferring. (Hell, even Mike Johnston here wanted to transfer from Mass! <GRIN>)   My first question was "Does your squadron commander know you want to transfer?" 

Almost universally the answer was "no!"

My personal policy on transfers was "If your transfer doesn't also involve a change in zip codes, I want to know why, and you better be talking to your current commander about it."  I was not going to run a "refugee squadron" for people escaping disciplinary action or whatever, and as a commander, if there was some kind of an issue going on in my unit that was causing someone to transfer, I'd like to know about it before they just disappear off my roster.

OTOH, sometimes you're just on the wrong foot with the commander or something and there is nothing you're going to do to fix that easily.  And maybe then it is time to go "elsewhere."

But you're not sneaking out of your current unit to my unit under the cover of darkness.  I have always had a good relationship with my adjacent and fellow commanders and I'm not about to sour that because you can't get along.

Regarding the "losing commander" aspect of the regulation:

In 1999, when I took over the unit I'm at now, my first official act as the commander after saluting the wing commander and playing flag switcheroo was to suspend three cadets for a fist fight at the meeting the week before.

They were counseled and suspended for 60 days, and they were given a letter that indicated the terms of their suspension ("no CAP activities", etc) and told "go home, cool your heels for 60 days and think hard about what the heck you're doing. No favorable actions, no nothing. Just sit down and shut up."

One cadet I knew was going to be applying for NCSAs. His suspension would have overlapped the application period (paper apps in those days) and ended just before the wing review board. I told him "Look, I know you want to apply for NCSAs.  I don't want this issue to goof up your chance for an NCSA this coming summer, so see me and I'll sign off your 31.  The suspension will be over before the review boards, and as long as you keep your nose clean, I don't have a problem sending you to an NCSA." 

He had also made some noises about wanting to transfer units and I told him "During this period, you get no favorable personnel actions, to include transfers. When your suspension period is up, we'll talk about a transfer, but not before that.  Do your 60 days and we'll talk."

A little past midway thru the suspension period, Cadet Board (a pseudonym) drop off my MML as "Transferring to Sq 12345".  Well, that is sure interesting.

I hear from another officer that this cadet is showing up at another unit's meetings, in uniform.  Further investigation reveals that he's been going out with that unit commander's daughter. Oh, this is going to be fun.

So I email him "Cadet Board, your membership just dropped off our roster and it shows you as transferring to Sq 12345. What is going on? I've heard that you're going to meetings of the Podunk Sq. Is that true?"

I get back this email about how his suspension isn't legitimate and that I don't have the authority to restrict him from doing what he wants, its a free country, etc, etc. (<Steve Irwin> "Listen! Crikey! Its the sound of the North American Guardhouse Lawyer in full bloom!"</Steve Irwin>)  He ends his email with "I've transferred to the Podunk Sq and there's not a thing you can do about it!!!!"

Hahahaha. In the words of Demo Dick Marcinko, "Doom on you."

That was in the morning.

By noon, I had sent the requisite letter to NHQ/DP requesting that the transfer be reversed (per the regulations), CC'd the wing commander on that, had a phone call with the wing commander to apprise him of the issue, and had a nice friendly phone call with my fellow commander at the Podunk Sq. Before I was done with my sandwich & Coke, his membership was sitting back on my MML.

Turns out, the unit commander was totally unaware that this cadet had been suspended by our unit and had these disciplinary issues.  He started showing up at their meetings (on a different night than ours, so it wasn't seen as odd) and never said a *word* about being suspended. 

The other commander was like "Whoa. I don't want him if this is the kind of cadet he is."

I bet dinner time conversation with his daughter was interesting that evening.

I emailed the cadet "Dear Cadet Board, your transfer to the Podunk Sq has been rescinded.  In the suspension letter you received on 11 NOV, I indicated to you that you were not to participate in CAP activities during the period of your suspension, and that there would be no favorable personnel actions during that time.   In further discussions, you and I talked about a transfer to another unit.  At that time, I told you that any transfers would occur after your suspension period.  We can further discuss your transfer after your suspension is over on 12 January."

That week, both he and his father showed up at our squadron meeting.  Turns out, the Guardhouse Lawyer apple didn't fall to far from the tree.

Dad spent a lot of time tell me what the regulations said (wrongly), how things were going to be (right, uh huh), and threatening me with dire consequences if I didn't let his little precious flower do what he wanted.  Dad was also one of those short, sawed-off kind of guys(no offense to short, sawed-off guys here..) who tries to physically intimidate people by standing up while everybody is sitting, using physically intimidating body language, etc. He tried that with me (unsuccessfully), and I literally laughed at his efforts.

Cadet finished out his 60 days, I signed off on his transfer to the Podunk Sq and I think I saw him one more time at wing activity.

That is the kind of thing that the regulation's requirements are there to prevent.  Sure, it can be used for other purposes, I suppose, but if you notice, it says in the event the losing commander disagrees, the transfer is reversed and the next higher echelon resolves.  At the very least, it may bring visibility to a issue. If the next  higher echelon is part of the problem, well, it might not.

ETA:

"I think we've seen this as an example of 'what not to do'."