Confused and Dazed...

[West MI-CAP-Ret]

I'm finishing my 5th month of a 2 month suspension.

I believe I am a victim of gossip. I thought my outgoing commander had a good opinion of me, but somehow the new commander just took a disliking to me. Yes, I know there are two sides of the story, but this story has me scratching me head.

At the end of my 2-month suspension, rather than have me return, I was told not to return until we meet with the group commander. Unbeknown to me, the group was going through a transition. 3 weeks later, I get a phone call from the new group commander asking me where I was [because he sent me an email about a meeting between himself and the commander, but I never received it]. Now I'm waiting for another phone call instead.

My question is, what are my options? I don't wish to do anything while my case is working its way through channels, but Oct 31 my membership ends.

I'd like to think that once my case is heard, I'd be allowed to return, knowing exactly what set the commander off, and working within that framework to stay out of trouble and do what I love to do. However, I believe I'm being discriminated with because from day-one, the co just didn't warm up to me. I ask to be transferred to my old squadron but the new group commander said no, wanting me to work this out with the co; something I've been unable to do [why all the responsibility is being placed on a junior member whom has no power to enact anything except beg for forgiveness!]

Does anyone have any ideas? I'm asking for ideas if the group commander 2bs me; something I really doubt. It is hoped that I'll be allowed to return.

Thanks for your thoughts, Lablover 

[lordmonar]

Basic option is to contact the Wing Commander, IG.

If that does not help...region commander and his IG followed by the National Commander and his IG.

All else fails the MARB.

[Extremepredjudice]

Inspector General.

Or Fraud, waste and abuse hotline: (877) 227-9142 and select option #4

[Spaceman3750]

Or Fraud, waste and abuse hotline: (877) 227-9142 and select option #4

FWA is for financial and property misuse, not problems with your CC.

[tsrup]

Inspector General.

Or Fraud, waste and abuse hotline: (877) 227-9142 and select option #4

No no no no no.

1000 times no.

This is very bad advice.

[FW]

60 day suspensions can only be renewed for reasons to include: wing/region commander approval for continuing an investigation for cadet protection violations and/or possible FWA; for which the CAP General Counsel is involved. The renewal of the suspension must be in writing and, the reasons must be explained to you.  If this was not done, you may appeal to the MARB (of course things may have changed since the CAP C&BLs are being rewritten). 

This is most definately NOT an IG issue; it is a membership issue and is addressed in CAPR 35-8, CAPR 35-1 and CAPR 35-3. 

[Eclipse]

FWA has nothing to do with personnel issues.  You should contact the IG.

If you were actually suspended with proper process, then you should have paperwork, a remediation plan, and they aren't allowed to
arbitrarily extend the suspension until they feel like letting you back, that's not how CAP works - you're either a member in good standing,
entitled to all benefits as such, or you're not, and if you're not, it's because someone followed the proper procedures and you know exactly the when
why and how.

When you contact the IG, stay away from any nonsense about rumors, gossip, or who may or may not like you.  Focus on the original issues that
got you suspended, whether or not the proper process was followed, and the fact that you feel regs are being violated in your not being allowed to
return, etc.

IG's have little interest in he-said / she-said trivialities.  They are only interested in whether regs have been violated, members abused, or property / financial malfeasance.  They are not the secret police of CAP, and have their own process to follow.

Since you are a member of a unit, it is unlikely that the group CC would terminate you. If they have cause, it should be the unit CC.  This is a practical
issue of where your avenue of appeal would be.

You should also arm yourself with the regs in regards to terminations.  If you do get terminated, and plan to appeal, there is a fixed time period and
specific process, and if not followed, you'll be out of luck.

[Devil Doc]

Sorry.. By the title I thaught you were going to start singing the song from Led Zeppelin belted out by the greatest singer in the world Robert Plant.

[West MI-CAP-Ret]

 
Dazed and Confused Update

First, as expected, I received a lot of good and professional replies.

Also, after reviewing the following regs, I believe I'm closer to the answer, but I don't think I've hit "pay-dirt" yet:

CAPR 35-1:  This regulation prescribes policy and procedures for the assignment of senior members as well as which member types are eligible for duty assignment. It also prescribes policy and procedures for suspended status which applies to both cadets and senior members.

CAPR 35-3:   This regulation establishes policies and procedures for terminating membership in Civil Air Patrol (CAP) prior to the membership expiration date.

CAPR 35-8:   This regulation creates a Membership Action Review Board (MARB) to review cases where members are removed from unit command, are demoted, have their membership suspended for more than 60 days due to regulatory infractions or misconduct not giving rise to a criminal investigation or criminal charges or proceedings, or have their membership terminated.

CAPR 123-2:   ... It includes procedures for submitting and processing complaints against all CAP members acting in their volunteer capacity and against the corporate entity.

I'm in "limbo".  I've been suspended for 60 days which has evolved to 5-months last Sept 23, yet I have not been allowed to return to active CAP status until the sqdrn CC has a meeting with me and the group commander (this was attempted in August, with the group CC sending out emails – which I never received – explaining the date and time for the meeting.  The new group CC, upset that I would miss this important meeting, has rescheduled a new phone call meeting, but it has been 30 days...)

It has been suggested that this is a membership issue, not an IG issue.  I've reviewed the before mentioned membership regs, and what I'm missing are the procedures of addressing this issue. If not IG, then whom?  The MARB is for review of 2b termination cases, in which I have not been terminated.

I believe that CAPR 123-2.ch6 has the information I need.  Before going to the wing IG, the reg reminds members to handle situations at the lowest chain of command.   So, I thought I would write to my current sqdrn co,  state the problem as succinctly as possible, quoting applicable regulations, i.e. CAPR 35-1, 2.2c, stating that I was never given a remediation plan, and after five months since the end of my 60 day suspension with no end in sight except for the expiration of my membership this month, I was hoping we could resolve all issues.

I was initially suspended due to applying to attend our wing conference without informing my unit commander. 

Background:  I had taken a leave of absence to go back to college.  In the middle of mid-term exams, and not going to meetings, I went on autopilot, filled out the paperwork like I have done for the past 15 years, and sent in a check.  The problem was, I always told my unit cc I was going, and this time I did not.  Rather than go into detail again how from day-one I have never had a good relationship with the squadron cc, I thought I would acknowledge my faults in jumping the chain of command, give the briefest of explanation that due to my hectic schedule, I made a stupid mistake that a retired AF nco, and a 20 year member of CAP should of known.  I profoundly apologize, and in the future will never, ever contact anyone officially from CAP without first giving my unit commander the due respect she deserves and ask for permission.

Finally, I thought I would finish with my desire that my request be handled at the squadron level, rather than make my case larger than it could be.

Thank you all for pointing me in the right direction.  I'm going to walk my two beautiful labs, Sarah and Chloe for their morning 2-mile walk, while their master listens to talk radio.

Warmly, Lab Lover

[RogueLeader]

If it is just the case of not asking to go to a conference (I'm not doubting, but only have one side,) I would hate to be in your unit.  Every unit I have been in has always encouraged attending outside training, and never required seniors to ask.  Cadets, I have found, need to ask/ advise that they are going outside unit activities beforehand as a heads up so CC doesn't get a phone call and not know about it.  YMMV.

[Eclipse]

I was initially suspended due to applying to attend our wing conference without informing my unit commander. 

That's ridiculous, and there is no way a suspension, based solely on the above sentence, would ever be sustained, let alone indefinitely extended or converted to a termination,  and no unit CC worth his badge is ever going to care beyond a passing "let me know next time" comment.

There has to be far more to this story then is on this page, that's the only thing we can guess from 50k feet. That or there's a real problem in this
unit that the Wing CC should be addressing ASAP.

[tsrup]

I was initially suspended due to applying to attend our wing conference without informing my unit commander. 

That's ridiculous, and there is no way a suspension, based solely on the above sentence, would ever be sustained, let alone indefinitely extended or converted to a termination,  and no unit CC worth his badge is ever going to care beyond a passing "let me know next time" comment.

There has to be far more to this story then is on this page, that's the only thing we can guess from 50k feet. That or there's a real problem in this
unit that the Wing CC should be addressing ASAP.

I don't know,
It seems like a suspension based upon the blanket reasoning of "insubordination" could be pushed through wing. 

Not that this seems appropriate, but it's all I can come up with based on the information above.

This really needs to be taken up through the chain of command.  They're the ones with the answers and the reasons to the questions above.  I think it's time to stop dealing with the Unit Commander entirely as the time has come and passed for his/her usefulness in this situation.

The IG should only become involved if you suspect the suspension was based upon wrongdoing on behalf of the Unit CC. 


Though if this truly is a case of a vindictive Unit CC and an incredulous Wing CC, expect to have to take this up to region level.  Be prepared and well versed in the regulations, know the tongue & quill, and understand that ultimately when the higher echelon investigates, it's going to be their word against yours. 


I hate to keep the broken record spinning, but again: take this higher up the chain as suggested more than a week ago.

[a2capt]

A Leave of Absence does not mean "I'm not renewing my membership",  OTOH, not renewing means the former.

Permission to go to the Wing Conference? A suspension worth offense? Come on. The first sounds obscene. The second sounds knee jerk so bad it must have kicked the jerker in the face, stupid.

[Garibaldi]

A Leave of Absence does not mean "I'm not renewing my membership",  OTOH, not renewing means the former.

Permission to go to the Wing Conference? A suspension worth offense? Come on. The first sounds obscene. The second sounds knee jerk so bad it must have kicked the jerker in the face, stupid.

This whole thing stinks to high heaven. Stinks, I tells ya.

I think there's a LOT more to this than LabLover is telling us, probably for good reason. Suspended for applying to Wing Conference without notifying his CC? I got in trouble once for "airing our dirty laundry" to my former CC because I needed some advice on how to handle a potential time bomb, which eventually went off. My CC got very angry that I even suggested that he seek outside guidance from someone with years of experience running squadrons and threatened to suspend me. That's over and done now, water under the bridge. He was wrong, obviously.

So is this commander, from what we can see. But, what else is going on that we aren't aware of? Does LabLover have some dirt on said CC that he's afraid will be aired to Wing? Something their unit is doing wrong? LabLover have a reputation for working outside the CoC and the CC finding out after the fact?

Something else is going on, for sure. Only a dullard would suspend someone simply for applying to an activity, with or without "permission". I always inform my CC of my intentions just so he knows what I'm doing. He never has a problem with it. Maybe this CC "rules" with an iron fist and NOTHING is done without his say-so. Who knows? We need more info.

[Garibaldi]

I was initially suspended due to applying to attend our wing conference without informing my unit commander. 

Background:  I had taken a leave of absence to go back to college.  In the middle of mid-term exams, and not going to meetings, I went on autopilot, filled out the paperwork like I have done for the past 15 years, and sent in a check.  The problem was, I always told my unit cc I was going, and this time I did not.  Rather than go into detail again how from day-one I have never had a good relationship with the squadron cc, I thought I would acknowledge my faults in jumping the chain of command, give the briefest of explanation that due to my hectic schedule, I made a stupid mistake that a retired AF nco, and a 20 year member of CAP should of known.  I profoundly apologize, and in the future will never, ever contact anyone officially from CAP without first giving my unit commander the due respect she deserves and ask for permission.

Finally, I thought I would finish with my desire that my request be handled at the squadron level, rather than make my case larger than it could be.

OK, now it makes a little more sense. I have a feeling that his feelings got hurt because you didn't, after many times of doing so, did NOT inform him of your intentions. The fact that he involved the Group commander tells me that he either had sufficient grounds to suspend you, or he and the Group CC are way too close and not all of the story filtered up like it should have.

The fact that you and the CC have never had a good relationship is immaterial; the CC HAS to be impartial and fair in what he does, regardless of how you feel about one another. If he was being vindictive because he got hurt feelers, then he really needs to not be in that kind of position.

Ever notice if some of his buddies get preferential treatment? The rules aren't always followed? He picks and chooses what he enforces? Does he treat all his subordinates the same way?

If you have documentation of this sort of thing, your case gets better and better. I keep hammering this point home to EVERYONE who has ever felt wronged in CAP and life: document everything. Time, place, situation, what was said to the best of your knowledge, etc. If you can get witnesses to help you, do so. The more paper you have, the better it is for you. My guess is your CC isn't expecting you to fight this hard, if at all. Complacency in this situation works for you, not him.

Good luck.

[bflynn]

This whole thing just sounds bizzare.

My next step approach would be to speak with the squadron commander in person.  Explain that you've been patient, but you're in a situation that you shouldn't be in and suggest that this be ended by restoring your normal status so you can transfer out her area and continue to serve your community.

If she will not meet with you, then my next step would be to inform the squadron commander, that, absent her willingness to meet and resolve the problem, you will escalate to the wing commander and meet with them.  If that produces a similar result, go to Wing IG because you have two commanders not complying with actions required of them for a member...you have not been provided a remediation plan and shame on them for letting you hang out there like that.

If you meet with your commander and she will not end it, then ask for the missing elements - where is the remediation plan so you can show her that you've followed it.  If she still stonewalls, then personally, I'd say that the chances of ending this at the lowest level possible are done...it will be handled at group or at wing IG.

Push comes to shove - recognize that you may have better things to do than get up at 2am and go look for an ELT.  Or contact your local emergency management group and see if there is a way you can help them out during disasters other than through CAP.  There is no rule that you must be in CAP to help.

Barring that, there are a multitude of other organizations that want volunteers and appreciate them more than your squadron command apparently does.

[a2capt]

I realize things are done differently in other places. (may be), but permission to go to the Wing conference? Permission for a senior member to attend a general function/activity at all? Sounds like control-freakism gone way too far.

Maybe CAWG is different, and that's the normal thing elsewhere? I suspect not. SLS, CLC, you have to apply for them. Part of the application process is your CC signs the form. But at large activities, where the whole point is at large varied wide attendance, to disseminate information and training?

Besides, earlier you said that you deferred your attendance fee to a cadet, not that you applied w/o their permission. Which is still absurd. I'd be "good on you, for paying for a cadet to attend .. "

[sardak]

Here is more to the story as Lab Lover first posted about this same issue back in March.

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=14927.msg268707#msg268707

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=14927.msg268803#msg268803

Mike

[Eclipse]

So...


...in March it was because of paying for someone else to to go to the conference:

I received the wing's invitation to their annual conference, but because of illness, I could not go, so I offered my funds to one of our cadets.  This is when I received a 2-month suspension because I didn't go through her (Sqdrn co).

And then it was because of something related to PA:

What I did was not waiting for her to return the news article I typed up regarding her change of command. 

Not buying it.  There's way more to this then is being indicated here.  Likely a pattern of minor infractions
that add up to a history of not following protocol.  Nothing egregious, and individually no big deal,
but eventually someone just said "enough".

1) If you don't know the specific reasons or charge for a suspension, it wasn't processed properly.
An improperly processed suspension is meaningless.

2) "Unofficial suspensions" (i.e. "Don't come back for a while..."  or "verbal") don't exist.  You are either a member in good standing
or you are not, and when you are not, you've been given formal reasoning why, along with what needs to be remediated and a finite
time frame for the resolution.  If these are not in the notification of suspension, see #1.

3) A properly processed suspension has a shelf-life which is indicated in the suspension and must be notified to all parties.
Open-ended suspensions, suspensions that "live-on" past their indicated duration, or any derivative thereof, don't exist.

4) Commanders a just people, and people are prone to mistakes and other foibles, but those foibles, "gossip" or similiar
cannot and would not be the grounds for a complaint or suspension. They might get you to the point where people are
looking for an excuse, but ultimately a suspension has to have sustainable, appropriate grounds.

Disengage this discussion and make some direct phone call tonight.  Ask direct questions and expect direct answers.
If you don't get them, or they are nonsensical, contact the Wing or Region IG tonight.  You might not like the answers,
but at least you'll have them.  This should have been resolved in the Spring, not still be an open issue this long.

Sometimes people like to revel / wallow in personal drama instead of just taking direct steps to move things forward with finality.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The fact that you and the CC have never had a good relationship is immaterial; the CC HAS to be impartial and fair in what he does, regardless of how you feel about one another. If he was being vindictive because he got hurt feelers, then he really needs to not be in that kind of position.

In a perfect world, you are 100% correct.

In CAP, throw it at the wall and see if it will stick.

Based on the somewhat limited information to hand, this sounds like yet another egregious example of the GOB network that has infected CAP for far too long.

One thing I learnt a looooong time ago is that you cannot make someone like you, and if someone is bent on not liking you, there's not a thing you can do about it.

One phrase I learnt almost as long ago that helps me deal with it: "What you think of me is none of my business."

In LabLover's place, I'd certainly be ticked off too, but I'd be weighing my options:

Is it worth remaining in CAP and giving yourself an ulcer, migraine headaches, etc. over?

I've found that sometimes Kenny Rogers' advice about "knowing when to fold 'em, etc." is pretty solid.

[Eclipse]

I've found that sometimes Kenny Rogers' advice about "knowing when to fold 'em, etc." is pretty solid.

Agree 100% - sometimes there are options like other units, different echelon, concentrate on specific activities, etc., but just as Groucho Marx
had no interest in joining a club that would allow someone like him as a member, sometimes if the club doesn't want your help, it's time to move to different
pastures.

I've seen more then a few people plant a flag on principle, fight the "good" fight (even when it's not really "good", nor really a "fight"), only to ultimately
quit once they were "absolved" (or whatever). 

Seems like a waste of perfectly good calories to me...

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Seems like a waste of perfectly good calories to me...

Not to mention Tums, Rolaids, Di-Gel, etc.

[West MI-CAP-Ret]

Good news.  Everything was taken care of.  I knew how horrible it sounded.  Yes, it does sound that their should of been more, but there really wasn't.  However, I ran Foul of wing a decade ago, and subsequently left cap rather than fight.  When I rejoined the problem I had grew out of proportion. 

Our current Wg commander took care of everything.  Although the group commander and sq co was present for a meeting with the Wg co, the conversation was between him and I.  I was given the option of joining another unit or work with group; I chose group.

Lessons learned:  don't lose your temper.  Never write anything official over email.  Sleep on a problem before action or reacting.

The real problem was a command problem.  An overworked group co actually wrote me suggesting that due to my illness I should retire because cap can be tough.  What he should of done is convened a meeting to resolve the problem.  This never happened.

90 percent of cap mbrs are great volunteers.  Look out for the rest! 

[Private Investigator]

LL, I am glad that is resolved. 98% of the problems in CAP units is misunderstandings.