Should CAP Officer Basic Course be required for CAP officer promotions?

Started by ßτε, April 03, 2010, 10:01:11 AM

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Should CAP OBC be required for CAP officer promotions?

Yes
42 (73.7%)
No
15 (26.3%)
I don't know
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 57

Hawk200

Quote from: heliodoc on April 03, 2010, 07:17:26 PMCAP probably has to many folks thinking CAP can match RM in the OBC and other related training....

There's ALOT more to CAP leadership than Online courses and "fun times" to run an organization

Also that it MIGHT requiring giving up more than a little vacation time....don't see too many ARC types and other volunteer whining about their vaca time!!!
I don't expect CAP officers to meet the same requirements as military ones, it's just not gonna happen, and I think that's mostly more of a case of will than ability.

I think just about every state has a commissioning program that consists of 18 drill weekends, and two AT's in whatever school they have that performs the commissioning training and process. I don't think we should have that, but four weekends out of a year, and a few dozen hours of online training is not much to ask at all. I would enroll in any such program if it came out tomorrow, and I'm already a major.

Now, I know people will say "But we're paying to be members!". I also think that's a failed argument considering that people pay thousands of dollars a year just to take classes that don't even contribute to a degree or certificate, they do it just to learn something. One way to sweeten the pot in that regard might be to somehow make the course creditable toward some college electives. Yeah, it'd take some work, but it will never get done if people blow it off for being too hard.

Quote from: Eclipse on April 03, 2010, 07:24:58 PMAnd neither is anybody here, and again you need to knock it off.
I wouldn't say that anyone was really whining about it, but it has been mentioned here and in other threads.

Quote from: Eclipse on April 03, 2010, 07:24:58 PMYour assertion that members who give up weeks of vacation and other time off to serve at encampments is some how less important than other CAP activities is so misinformed and belligerent it's incredible even for you.  That time is spent serving someone else, specifically the cadets, and most encampment staffers are hyper-involved in CAP on all levels - they are the same people you will see at all the PD functions, usually as instructors, and they'll be the ones running most of the ES missions, real or otherwise.
It may not be presented in a manner you like, but there's merit to it. I've seen many people that support the "fun stuff" almost religiously, but don't consider professional development and personal advancement like they should.

A glaring example was a member that had attended three encampments, but had been a 1LT for almost four years. "Don't have time for SLS" was a failed argument considering that one year there was an SLS on a weekend that the encampment overlapped. If I'd been in charge of it, and enough staff were available for those two days, I would have sent her over there in the mornings for those two days to take it. She could have come back in the evenings, and contributed to the encampment as well. Two birds with one stone, but "Don't have time" was the excuse.

There are a lot of examples of people stuck in certain ranks because they just didn't accomplish PD. One group commander that had been a Capain for twelve years because he didn't take his ECI 13. You think that in twelve years, you could have found the time? I did, and I was active duty when I took it.

There are many people that are simply advocating further training than we have. Leadership should be focused on, as command fails in this organization unless you're in a command position.

We want to be considered professionals, but there are just as many organizations that have similar missions to ours that have more stringent requirements and require additional training to be part of them. Many people here want to think of CAP as "elite". It's not something we're gonna be if our standards are lower than those others.

Hawk200

Quote from: Short Field on April 03, 2010, 07:53:23 PMThe people who assume a two-week intensive course will solve all our leadership and mangement issues fail to realize that the course will be taught by the same people who are currently in our leadership and management positions.  What is going to be taught differently than what is taught or expected now?
A very salient point. We need to put together something, and then stick to it. Make it a requirement that any instructor teaching it has also taken it. Might not hurt to see if we can resource some military instructors on the development of it, and maybe have some teach it at the higher levels. Trickle it down.

Granted, the PD officer is gonna end up with a bit more workload in both the short and long term.

My best friend is a Training NCO in the Air Force. He considers training the most important job in the Air Force. It took a few years for me to see it, but I agree with him now. He'd probably also be a perfect person to start with when it comes to military instructors take a look at our courses.

FARRIER

Food for thought:


Back before Computer Based Training became the rage, my colleagues and I, at the training center for the airline I worked for, discussed having some of the course work for recurrency completed at home. And then, come to class ready to discuss what was studied. It would have required actual class time.

Using the above train of thought, for many of our schools, have the knowledge work, via CBT, done before going to the activity. Then maybe we wouldn't need a week for the course.

Respectfully,
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Hawk200

Quote from: FARRIER on April 03, 2010, 08:33:35 PM
Food for thought:


Back before Computer Based Training became the rage, my colleagues and I, at the training center for the airline I worked for, discussed having some of the course work for recurrency completed at home. And then, come to class ready to discuss what was studied. It would have required actual class time.

Using the above train of thought, for many of our schools, have the knowledge work, via CBT, done before going to the activity. Then maybe we wouldn't need a week for the course.

Respectfully,
I ate it. You got my vote.

NC Hokie

Quote from: Short Field on April 03, 2010, 07:53:23 PM
The OBC comes about the right time for new members.  Sometime between when they join and when they have eighteen months TIG as a 1st Lt, they need to have gotten their tech rating and completed SLS and OBC.  Then they get promoted to Capt.  That gives what training they have received time to settle and take hold plus allows them some experience to provide context for SLS and OBC.
Sorry, but I simply can't agree with you on this.  Eighteen months into one's CAP career is NOT the time to finally cover foundational topics such as Intro to Followership, CAP Core Values, CAP Ethics, CAP Uniform Wear, Specialty Training Tracks, Organization of CAP, etc.
NC Hokie, Lt Col, CAP

Graduated Squadron Commander
All Around Good Guy

High Speed Low Drag

I am in complete agreement with the others - OBC should be done sooner.  If I was world dictator (or at least the CAP 2-star), I would make OBC mandatory to get 2nd Lt (or the special skills rank).  Everyone starts as a SMWOG, complete Level 1, to include OBC, then you get your rank after appropriate TIG. 

I would then add AOC (Advanced Officer Course) to get to Capt.  AOC would consist of more advanced topics.  I really like the idea that FARRIER put out - complete CBT, then a weekend of hands-on.
G. St. Pierre                             

"WIWAC, we marched 5 miles every meeting, uphill both ways!!"

RiverAux

I have to say that I am incredibly surprised about the overwhelmingly positive response to the suggestion that all CAP officers have to take OBC before their next promotion no matter their current position in the PD levels.  A thread I started a while back suggesting that officer re-take the new versions of SLS or CLC, which are both radically different from the old versions, received quite a bit of condemnation IIRC. 

Short Field

Quote from: NC Hokie on April 04, 2010, 02:02:05 PM
Eighteen months into one's CAP career is NOT the time to finally cover foundational topics such as Intro to Followership, CAP Core Values, CAP Ethics, CAP Uniform Wear, Specialty Training Tracks, Organization of CAP, etc.
Duh, you mean your squadron commander is not having those topics covered in the Summary Conversation or follow-on PD classes? 

The three Senior Squadrons in our area meet twice a month for an hour each meeting.  That is a grand total of 24 contact hours a year.  So before a new members has even 36 contact hrs in the organization, he needs to be required to taking another on-line course (granted a lot of folks will have taken it) for promotion?  Sorry, but the new member needs to be spending time progressing in their speciality track and mastering their job in the squadron.  For those squadrons that support ES, the new members need to be progressing through IS 100, 200, 700, 800, 300, and 400 plus the CAP specific ES courses.  Most new members join to be active in our missions - so the best way to make sure they stay members is to get them qualified and active in the mission as soon as possible.   
SAR/DR MP, ARCHOP, AOBD, GTM1, GBD, LSC, FASC, LO, PIO, MSO(T), & IC2
Wilson #2640

RiverAux

To sidetrack a little -- I think twice a month meetings are fine for seniors, but an hour per meeting is way too little.  2 hours at a minimum is enough to get some adequate training in as well as to deal with various administrative issues. 

MSgt Van

I'd recommend the same before a prior service NCO is allowed to sew on their stripes.

Lt Oliv

The first six months in CAP are pretty busy. Before you can even put that brand-spanking-new membership card to use, you have to complete Level I. So, the OBC is NOT the first introduction to Core Values, Customs and Courtesy etc etc.

Then, pile on the prep work for ES. Depending on your unit, you may even be looking at a specialty track and kicking right off with a staff assignment.

Did we mention that people are working full time jobs?

Is our biggest problem poorly prepared 2d Lts? Or is it more senior officers who lack the basic foundation?

Here's an idea.

Instead of saying OBC before you can put on 2LT (which will result in people not putting on grade for around 8-12 months rather than 6 months), why not require OBC and Technician Level for promotion to 1st LT.

Currently, to be a 1st Lieutenant, all you need is TIG and Technician rating, and the OBC is required for promotion to Captain. I think when you are looking at Captain, you're probably too set in your ways. But as a brand new SMWOG, you are getting way too much thrown at a simple volunteer. Why not throw the OBC requirement on the 1st Lieutenant?

You're still new enough to learn as you are still "settling in" but not around so long that the course has no chance of making an impact.

Hawk200

Quote from: Lt Oliv on April 04, 2010, 05:52:45 PMThen, pile on the prep work for ES. Depending on your unit, you may even be looking at a specialty track and kicking right off with a staff assignment.
It may be how I'm reading this, but if units are pushing completion of ES quals over professional development, then there's a problem. ES doesn't have anything to do with promotions or development for seniors or cadets.

It amazes me how many units are pencil whipping off specialty track completions, and the member it's being done for either doesn't know what it is, or doesn't know how to do it. And it's all because the wrong level of emphasis is being placed on ES.  ES is almost an extracurricular, not a primary function. New members need to be trained how to do a job that runs a squadron, not thrown into a backseat or fast tracked to a Form 5.

I swear, if I run into one more "newish" member that tells me "I'm a pilot (or scanner)" when I ask them what their specialty track is, I'm probably gonna scream.

There's a time for ES, and it's not within the first six months, or even year. Get people knowledgeable about CAP first, then start them on the additionals.

ßτε

Quote from: Hawk200 on April 04, 2010, 06:41:01 PM
It may be how I'm reading this, but if units are pushing completion of ES quals over professional development, then there's a problem. ES doesn't have anything to do with promotions or development for seniors or cadets.
You are partially correct. ES doesn't have anything to do with promotions or development for cadets, nor for duty performance promotions for seniors. But ES definitely has a role in mission related skills promotions.

Also, there is nothing wrong with a unit emphasizing ES training, especially when the primary purpose of the unit is ES. I would much rather have a pilot train as a mission pilot than as an assistant administrative officer. It is ridiculous to me to tell a pilot that "we can't use your services unless you first follow our professional development program."

RiverAux

Keep in mind that performing ES is one of our primary missions and PD isn't.  Quite frankly after the basics are out of the way, if a new senior member is ES-oriented I'd rather they work on ES quals than PD.  I really don't want a member with months in CAP handling a staff position anyway.  I'd rather that they get acclimated to CAP life a bit before putting that sort of work on them. 

Gunner C

Professional development is an implied mission that supports the three stated missions.  Honestly, we hurt ourselves when we give it short shrift.  When we don't have properly trained members, the support functions that are absolutely vital are either poorly done or left undone completely.  How many of us here have complained about record keeping, poor public affairs, or badly conceived communications plans? 

New members should begin learning their "house keeping" jobs early.  It needs to be emphasized early that everyone needs to pull their own weight to get the mission done.  No, it shouldn't be their main emphasis early on, but it should be apparent to everyone who joins that we all have stuff that we need to do.  If they don't want to help out with an administrative function now, then they probably won't be willing to do it later on.  It's all part of being a member and part of a team.

Short Field

Quote from: Hawk200 on April 04, 2010, 06:41:01 PM
ES is almost an extracurricular, not a primary function. .....  There's a time for ES, and it's not within the first six months, or even year. Get people knowledgeable about CAP first, then start them on the additionals.
Wake up and read the mission statements.  ES is one of the three major mission areas for CAP.  ES is also why a lot of people join CAP.  NOW you want to tell them that they need to do paperwork and take classes for a year before they can even start training on ES anything ES related? 
SAR/DR MP, ARCHOP, AOBD, GTM1, GBD, LSC, FASC, LO, PIO, MSO(T), & IC2
Wilson #2640

Short Field

Quote from: Hawk200 on April 04, 2010, 06:41:01 PM
I swear, if I run into one more "newish" member that tells me "I'm a pilot (or scanner)" when I ask them what their specialty track is, I'm probably gonna scream.
Do something useful and scream at the person signing them off for their Summary Conversation.  That person is doing a poor job of explaining how CAP works. 

I had to really work hard to make sure our newbies were not being signed up for the ES speciality track simply because they wanted to be a scanner...  If your squadron is simply the blind leading the blind, no amount of PD is going to help you.
SAR/DR MP, ARCHOP, AOBD, GTM1, GBD, LSC, FASC, LO, PIO, MSO(T), & IC2
Wilson #2640

Short Field

Quote from: Gunner C on April 04, 2010, 08:38:58 PM
New members should begin learning their "house keeping" jobs early.  It needs to be emphasized early that everyone needs to pull their own weight to get the mission done. 

+1  But that does not have to be at the exclusion of the three missions. 
SAR/DR MP, ARCHOP, AOBD, GTM1, GBD, LSC, FASC, LO, PIO, MSO(T), & IC2
Wilson #2640

Hawk200

Quote from: Short Field on April 04, 2010, 10:09:55 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on April 04, 2010, 06:41:01 PM
ES is almost an extracurricular, not a primary function. .....  There's a time for ES, and it's not within the first six months, or even year. Get people knowledgeable about CAP first, then start them on the additionals.
Wake up and read the mission statements.  ES is one of the three major mission areas for CAP.  ES is also why a lot of people join CAP.  NOW you want to tell them that they need to do paperwork and take classes for a year before they can even start training on ES anything ES related?
Tell me something: What is a forest made of?

Maybe you'll figure it out when you wake up.

Short Field

SAR/DR MP, ARCHOP, AOBD, GTM1, GBD, LSC, FASC, LO, PIO, MSO(T), & IC2
Wilson #2640