Flying cadets in non-orientation (C-17) flights?

[jeders]

Ok...   Hmmm....  Can anyone guide me to which regulation or policy clearly states that?  (the chaplains and airplanes no-cppt, that is)  If this is indeed the case, I am going to make quite a few cadets at my squadron very happy.

Here you go.

Encourage at least two senior members to be present at all cadet activities (with the exception of chaplain counseling or cadet orientation flights). This policy is for the protection of the senior members as well as the cadets.

So while jimmydeanno is technically right that there is no "one-on-one" rule, there is such a thing as being careful and protecting yourself. However, my point in bringing it up was that flying is explicitly exempt from the recommendation.

If you copied and pasted directly from the reg, you've got an olde version.

The current text, emphasis mine:

d. Ensure that at least two "approved" senior members are present at all overnight cadet activities. Encourage at least two senior members to be present at all cadet activities (with the exception of chaplain counseling or cadet orientation flights). This policy is for the protection of the senior members as well as the cadets.

Mine is the current text, like bte said, I dropped the first sentence because it wasn't relevant to the discussion. Probably should have put an ellipses to avoid confusion, meh.

No, we're not talking about orientation flights, we are talking about ALL flying activities.

You can take cadets up, regardless of mission symbol, period. The only thing that the symbol means is who pays for it.

I do not believe you are correct.  I am under the impression that Cadets are explicitly forbidden to fly on "A Missions" when transporting or ferrying planes and pilots. 

If you go read CAPR 60-1, you will see that that is not so. Remember, all that the A, B, and C mean are who pays for it and what insurance coverage we use. It doesn't restrict cadets from being passengers.

[ßτε]

ensure and encourage are two different words

Yes, they are. And they are both used in the regulation.

d. Ensure that at least two "approved" senior members are present at all overnight cadet activities. Encourage at least two senior members to be present at all cadet activities (with the exception of chaplain counseling or cadet orientation flights). This policy is for the protection of the senior members as well as the cadets.

[Eclipse]

Yep.

Ensure = "will"

Encourage = "should"

Should is optional.

[SarDragon]

OK, I see what's going on. The quote I questioned is missing the first sentence of my cite. Now that we have conclusively established that, let's get back to the basic discussion. There is no longer any need to debate ensure vs. encourage.

[SJFedor]

No, we're not talking about orientation flights, we are talking about ALL flying activities.

You can take cadets up, regardless of mission symbol, period. The only thing that the symbol means is who pays for it.

I do not believe you are correct.  I am under the impression that Cadets are explicitly forbidden to fly on "A Missions" when transporting or ferrying planes and pilots. 

If you go read CAPR 60-1, you will see that that is not so. Remember, all that the A, B, and C mean are who pays for it and what insurance coverage we use. It doesn't restrict cadets from being passengers.
[/quote]

And not only that, but if we were forbidden to take Cadets up on A-missions, we've broken that rule every time we do a cadet orientation flight (A-15)

[ol'fido]

Again this is the early '80s I'm talking about here. In 84 or early '85, I was a c/LtCol and flew as an observer on a mission. I was 19 or 20 at the time. The aircraft was a Illinois Dept of Transportation helicopter with a IDOT pilot and the co-pilot was the USAF 0-6 that commanded the GLLR at that time. Not a CAP senior in sight. Oh, and I wasn't observer qualified either.

[Check Pilot/Tow Pilot]

No, we're not talking about orientation flights, we are talking about ALL flying activities.

You can take cadets up, regardless of mission symbol, period. The only thing that the symbol means is who pays for it.

I do not believe you are correct.  I am under the impression that Cadets are explicitly forbidden to fly on "A Missions" when transporting or ferrying planes and pilots. 

If you go read CAPR 60-1, you will see that that is not so. Remember, all that the A, B, and C mean are who pays for it and what insurance coverage we use. It doesn't restrict cadets from being passengers.

And not only that, but if we were forbidden to take Cadets up on A-missions, we've broken that rule every time we do a cadet orientation flight (A-15)
[/quote]

Steve,

Note this paragraph in CAPR 60-3, para 1-10e. dated 17 Aug 2009:

e. Use of qualified CAP cadets is encouraged as much as possible on appropriate missions. Cadets should be trained in the various functions of mission operations and support as permitted. Cadets qualify no differently than adult members in emergency services qualifications, and can be properly utilized in age-appropriate scenarios. Additional guidance for employing cadets on missions can be found on the NHQ CAP/DOS website.

And on the NHQ CAP/DOS Website: Cadets in Emergency Services at http://www.capmembers.com/emergency_services/operations_support/cadets_in_emergency_services.cfm, that restricts cadets under the age of 18 from "emergency services operations":

Only cadets 18 years of age and older, who hold a valid CAPF 101,
Specialty Qualification Card are authorized to fly on aircraft involved in the
performance of emergency services operations. Any cadet may be flown
directly to and from a mission base when needed to perform mission
duties, provided the pilot-in-command is at least a qualified mission
transport pilot.

So what is the definition of "emergency services operations"?

[bosshawk]

Why don't you ask the National DOS: they are the ones that coined the term?

[Eclipse]

So what is the definition of "emergency services operations"?

Mission tasking or training.  AFAM or otherwise.

[Check Pilot/Tow Pilot]

Why don't you ask the National DOS: they are the ones that coined the term?

Good idea Paul!

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[bosshawk]

I will hold my breath awaiting the reply.  Then, I will exhale.

[Check Pilot/Tow Pilot]

And the quick reply is:

Response (KB Manager) - 10/12/2010 11:29 AM
Emergency services operations are conducted under several mission symbols, not just one.  What we're talking about in general is SAR, Disaster Relief, and some Homeland Security Operations, as well as associated training, on both Corporate or AFAMs.  The missions symbols that could possibly be used for this as of 12 October 2010 are:  A1, A2, A5, A18, A99, B5, B8, B10, B11, B13, B14, B18, B21, B99, C14, C18, C21, C99, C911.  That said, this is not blanket approval for cadets to be flown on any flight under those mission symbols.  There has to be a need for that cadet, and it is only for too and from the mission bases, not for traditional sortie activities like reconnaissance.  If there is a question, as to appropriateness or not, we suggest you call the NOC at 888-211-1812 ext. 300 when
the need arises if it is not clear.

[bosshawk]

After turning purple, I just exhaled.