Uniforms and Rank/Grade

[ColonelJack]

I don't want to do this as a poll, because I'm not necessarily interested in finding out "how many" ... what I would like to know is "why".

So here goes:

It's apparent that there are some people on the board who wouldn't mind one bit if CAP did away with uniforms and rank/grade insignia (and titles) entirely.  It's also apparent that such a suggestion would be a line in the sand that, if crossed, would mean they'd leave the program.

I'd like to find out where you stand on the issue, and why.

Should we even have uniforms and rank/grade in CAP?  If so, why?  If not, why not?

Hoping you'll humor an old man ...

Jack

[a2capt]

Line in the sand? No.

Rank/grade is just a way of indicating accomplishments and experience, in this organization. Not necessarily an indicator of level of responsibility.

[MIKE]

IIRC initially CAP did not have uniforms and grade insignia... That came later, IIRC as means to prevent members from being shot as spies, and grant protection under the Geneva Convention.

[capmaj]

Eliminating military-style uniforms would certainly simplify membership, particularly among our newer members.

We could just have a system of recognition of Senior Achievement level completion as an indicator of positional requirements, i.e. Level II for Squadron CC, Level III for Group, Level IV for Wing positions and higher and Level V for Region CC and/or National  office.

Just a thought.

[huey]

Most of us are proud of wearing our variaties of uniform, especially to the cadets!

[Grumpy]

IIRC initially CAP did not have uniforms and grade insignia... That came later, IIRC as means to prevent members from being shot as spies, and grant protection under the Geneva Convention.

I'd like to learn more.  Do you have a source on that?

[davedove]

I like the uniforms and rank/grade, but it's not really a deal breaker one way or the other.

I do, however, think that the way grade is assigned needs to be reformed.  After all, the current system is more a reflection on the individual's advancement in professional development and not responsibility.  Well, we already have ribbons for that.

[lordmonar]

Uniforms and ranks sets ourselves apart from just a bunch of guys sitting around talking about aircraft.

It gives us credibility, identity, and an esprit de corps.

And not a line in the sand for me.......but I think it would change the tone of our organization if uniforms/ranks were done away with all together.

[Alaric]

I see no problem the way the CGAux does it rank is about position/responsibility not the many ways we can do it in CAP (professional development / prior service / professional aptitude (teacher/clergy/lawyer/accountant/pilot/RTO)

[DMinick]

Personally I love the ranks/grades! For me it's not about "power", but pride! I am currently over the weight limit and must wear the white aviator rather than the blues, however, one of the things I'm looking forward most to about this weight loss journey is being able to wear those blues with my ribbons on it! To me that shows an accomplishment. Our cadets enjoy wearing them for the same reason. Granted there are a few that use it as a power thing, but most of them do not.

[MIKE]

I see no problem the way the CGAux does it rank is about position/responsibility not the many ways we can do it in CAP (professional development / prior service / professional aptitude (teacher/clergy/lawyer/accountant/pilot/RTO)

Having now lived in both worlds...  I think both ways are flawed.  If you use the Aux system, you have prior squadron commanders, group commanders or even wing commanders hanging around wearing their old grades doing a 2d Lts job... Or you get a brand new SM or 2d Lt who gets a staff job at wing and is now an insta-Maj etc.

I would like to have grade that means something... Keep professional development requirements for progression, but also tie that to a manning table so that the people with the training and experience hold jobs with commensurate grade and authority.  Your a Capt because you have completed level II with full time in grade with no short cuts, and are holding a Capt level command or staff billet as per the manning document.

[Alaric]

I see no problem the way the CGAux does it rank is about position/responsibility not the many ways we can do it in CAP (professional development / prior service / professional aptitude (teacher/clergy/lawyer/accountant/pilot/RTO)

Having now lived in both worlds...  I think both ways are flawed.  If you use the Aux system, you have prior squadron commanders, group commanders or even wing commanders hanging around wearing their old grades doing a 2d Lts job... Or you get a brand new SM or 2d Lt who gets a staff job at wing and is now an insta-Maj etc.

I would like to have grade that means something... Keep professional development requirements for progression, but also tie that to a manning table so that the people with the training and experience hold jobs with commensurate grade and authority.  Your a Capt because you have completed level II with full time in grade with no short cuts, and are holding a Capt level command or staff billet as per the manning document.

The problem with that is that appointments are up to the command in different levels and our squadrons are so varies.  So for instance, I'm a Major and my job moves me to another state where the only squadron nearby has a large number of seniors, what should they do when I come, oust someone who is doing a good job?, demote me?

[lordmonar]

Well....if we are going to be talking about a "new system".

How about all rank and file members being "flight officers" based on their PD ranks FO=Level I, Staff FO=Level II, Master FO=Level III, Senior FO=Level IV, Chief Flight Officer=Level V.

"rank" 1 Lt, 2 Lt, Col etc is based on the job that you are doing now.

National CC is a MGen....and his Deputy is BGen.....Staff are Col (assistants are Lt Col)
Regional CC is a BGen....and his deputy is a Col.......Staff is Lt Col (assistants are Maj)
Wing CC is a Col.....and his Dupty is a Lt Col.....staff is Major and Capt.
Group CC is a Lt Col....duty is Major.....Staff is Capt and 1st Lts.
Squadron CC is a major, duty is Capt, Staff is 1st Lt and 2d Lts.

When the national CC steps down.....he becomes a FO=5 unless/until he accepts a staff position......so he goes from National CC to just a CAP pilot....then he is CFO.  If he takes on a job at region...he can be a Lt Col or Major.

Now....to keep some newby SM going to instant Major......we fix that by placing hard PD requirements for different levels of jobs.

[Storm Chaser]

IIRC initially CAP did not have uniforms and grade insignia... That came later, IIRC as means to prevent members from being shot as spies, and grant protection under the Geneva Convention.

I'm not sure where you got this information, but a uniform and grade insignia alone would have no bearing on preventing someone from being "shot" as a spy. The U.S. government extended officer commissions to the precursors of the Public Health Service and NOAA Corps, in part, to prevent this from happening in times of war. Our members have never had such commissions, not even during WWII.

As far as uniforms go, I believe that an organization like ours should have a uniform, although it doesn't necessarily have to be like the ones we have now. I don't mind grade insignias, but I do have mixed feelings about the way they're implemented today. I believe that, in addition to experience and professional development, grades should be linked to levels of responsibilities. That's the way it's done in most organizations, military or otherwise.

[SarDragon]

IIRC initially CAP did not have uniforms and grade insignia... That came later, IIRC as means to prevent members from being shot as spies, and grant protection under the Geneva Convention.

CAP officer rank was introduced in July 1942, so your "initially" period is relatively short. There's no mention in my source about why we have rank.

[RiverAux]

IIRC initially CAP did not have uniforms and grade insignia... That came later, IIRC as means to prevent members from being shot as spies, and grant protection under the Geneva Convention.

Uh, the Office of Civilian Defense announcement flyer dated Dec. 1, 1941 stated that CAP was going to be uniformed and have ranks and CAP General Order #1 (dated Jan 7 1942) discussed uniforms.  (Ref "CAP Uniforms and Insignia: The first ten years"). 

So, you're correct that CAP didn't have uniforms and rank for a few months, but that was just because we hadn't gotten very organized yet.  We were envisioned having them from the very beginning. 

[Critical AOA]

No secret that I am not a fan of the air force style uniforms in CAP.  But would I do away with uniforms entirely?  Absolutely not!  We do need a way to set ourselves apart from others in the AOA.   I would lose the blues and BDUs.  I would go with cargo / tactical pants and either a golf shirt or a khaki shirt.

As far as rank, I guess I could take it or leave it though it might be better if it was somehow tied to one's position or level of responsibility.  The idea of a bunch of Lt Colonels and Majors sitting around in a squadron with a 1st Lt as their commander is rather ridiculous in my opinion.   As far as using rank or ribbons as an indication of personal achievement, that can be accomplished with a limited number of badges or patches for various mission skills.  This would include pilot wings, specialty track badges, etc.  These would be for CAP qualifications only, not what you did back in the day in the military.

[abdsp51]

No secret that I am not a fan of the air force style uniforms in CAP.  But would I do away with uniforms entirely?  Absolutely not!  We do need a way to set ourselves apart from others in the AOA.   I would lose the blues and BDUs.  I would go with cargo / tactical pants and either a golf shirt or a khaki shirt.

As far as rank, I guess I could take it or leave it though it might be better if it was somehow tied to one's position or level of responsibility.  The idea of a bunch of Lt Colonels and Majors sitting around in a squadron with a 1st Lt as their commander is rather ridiculous in my opinion.   As far as using rank or ribbons as an indication of personal achievement, that can be accomplished with a limited number of badges or patches for various mission skills.  This would include pilot wings, specialty track badges, etc.  These would be for CAP qualifications only, not what you did back in the day in the military.

Disgruntled much?

[Critical AOA]

No secret that I am not a fan of the air force style uniforms in CAP.  But would I do away with uniforms entirely?  Absolutely not!  We do need a way to set ourselves apart from others in the AOA.   I would lose the blues and BDUs.  I would go with cargo / tactical pants and either a golf shirt or a khaki shirt.

As far as rank, I guess I could take it or leave it though it might be better if it was somehow tied to one's position or level of responsibility.  The idea of a bunch of Lt Colonels and Majors sitting around in a squadron with a 1st Lt as their commander is rather ridiculous in my opinion.   As far as using rank or ribbons as an indication of personal achievement, that can be accomplished with a limited number of badges or patches for various mission skills.  This would include pilot wings, specialty track badges, etc.  These would be for CAP qualifications only, not what you did back in the day in the military.

Disgruntled much?

Jack asked for our opinions and I gave mine which by the way is similar to others above mine in some regards.  You have yet to offer your opinion but instead just decided to attack me.  I take it your are one of those that loves the fruit salad.  I guess it makes you feel like a man.

[skymaster]

IIRC initially CAP did not have uniforms and grade insignia... That came later, IIRC as means to prevent members from being shot as spies, and grant protection under the Geneva Convention.

Uh, the Office of Civilian Defense announcement flyer dated Dec. 1, 1941 stated that CAP was going to be uniformed and have ranks and CAP General Order #1 (dated Jan 7 1942) discussed uniforms.  (Ref "CAP Uniforms and Insignia: The first ten years"). 

So, you're correct that CAP didn't have uniforms and rank for a few months, but that was just because we hadn't gotten very organized yet.  We were envisioned having them from the very beginning.

Actually, in Georgia the Air Patrol had uniforms BEFORE 1 December 1941. Here is a photo from the summer of 1941, showing 3 Air Patrol officers in uniform. The uniform was a khaki USAAF uniform, with a Georgia State Defense Corps patch, silver prop/wing insignia, grade insignia, and a flight cap with red trim. So you are absolutely correct, they WERE intended from the very beginning.