Culling the uniform manual...

[mikeylikey]

ZigZag911 makes a good point about questioning the wearing of BDU's by CAP, the non-combatant civilian auxiliary of the Air Force.  There are 2 reasons why I believe we should do away with camouflage BDU's:

1. There is no need for camouflage in any of CAP's missions.

2. Camouflage is not ideal for SAR missions. 

The second point is especially true.  The first rule of emergency response is: don't become a victim.  Camouflage in the wrong setting can cause that to happen. 

People may argue that CAP should adopt camouflage to keep current with the Air Force, but the truth is, the Air Force needs it... CAP does not. 

Common sense would dictate that CAP uses BDU's because it was at one time (I SAID ONE TIME) in high production, routinely available at MCSS, orderable from the AAFES Catalogue, and the basic battle dress for the Armed forces, which meant CAP could acquire new and used surplus from the Federal Government (Like DRMO). 

That is the exact same reason CAP used the green fatigues (above reasoning is the same).

That is the exact same reason CAP continued to wear the Army Service Uniform well after 1947, because it was so highly available. 

However, today there is a new issue.  AAFES has discontinued stocking quantities of the BDU's in MCSS stores, and should by next fiscal year stop carrying them altogether because of the AF switch to the ABU. 

CAP does not wear battle dress because we are trying to be like the military, it is just plain ECONOMICS.

Wait until AAFES stops carrying black Combat boots in FY '08.  I bet we see a switch to the tan boots.

To go into more depth (which I am getting good at), the old style AF service coat that Cadets still wear will no doubt in a few years be discontinued.  There are only so many out there, and upkeep will cost too much.  CAP is like a HUGE recycle bin.  We get the AF hand-me-downs and we have gotten fairly good at using what we get. 

On a personal note, I am getting sick of people complaining about the blue and white name/CAP tapes and insignia.  We are stuck with them and need to live with it.  We are MORE STUCK with them now than ever before in our history.  You may ask why?  The simple truth is that Vanguard will fight and fight to keep producing those distinctive items.  They won out bigtime, and I would bet there is a clause in their contract with NHQ that states something to the point of not changing colors or thread type for at least 5 years, unless it advantageous to them to do it.  We should have pressed AF to allow subdued when the organization picked up the BDU's, but I guess there were more pressing matters.

WE can make a presentation to the AF when we switch over to the ABU that we need (because of economics) to use subdues patches.  Just think, we can maybe get AAFES to carry our items in the stores on a national scale again! 

   

[DNall]

You sure about that, cause published statements indicate otherwise on some of that, and my conversations indicate very strongly the other way on the rest.

Please post a link or source for these published statements so we can evaluate them and make our own judgements as to their validity and relevence. 

Okay

Not in this thread please.

Good point, by PM then

[afgeo4]

Lucky for us, the ABU does absolutely nothing for camouflaging in a woodland area. In fact, it's so visible, that we may not need to wear orange vests anymore!

Also, there are no patches authorized on the ABU, so making them subdued would be of no use.

I am still fully for the ABU because of its wash/wear qualities and because the boots are no-shine (which are the only two differences between the ABU and BDU aside from the silly colors and absolutely useless inside pockets). I just think we need to use the tiger stripe print ad background of nametapes with ultramarine lettering on them.

Oh... because vanguard will be producing ABU nametapes anyway, it would actually be cheaper for them to drop the white on blue CAP tape and order more tiger stripe.

(anyone know if AF combat vehicles will be repainted into the tiger stripe pattern too?)

[Hawk200]

We wear the BDUs as a utility uniform. Not for its camo.

When the Air Force changed its utility uniform, Civil Air Patrol followed suit, once the older stocks of the Air Force's former utility uniform were depleted. You couldn't get any more of them. It took a few years, but it changed.

There are better utility uniforms out there. Better than BDUs, ACU's, MCUUs, or ABU's. But they are expensive. For those of you that feel that we don't need the camo, I'm sure Headquarters would probably consider adopting an alternate utility, and would happily send you the bill for the acquisition of that new design.

It is a matter of practicality. New BDUs can be purchased at Air Force installations all over this country, or you can get them online at reasonable prices. There are also numerous surplus resources for BDUs. Shopping reasonably, you can get a pretty good condition setup for a reasonable price.

And the camo ones are whats available. If you have a source for surplus blue, brown, green, khaki, etc BDUs, I'd love to see it. But it must be a resource that can support every single member of Civil Air Patrol. A 100 pound bulk lot, one time purchase doesn't cut it. It must be able to support the whole team.

Now, that being said, can we get back to "What you'd eliminate" ?

[DNall]

ZigZag911 makes a good point about questioning the wearing of BDU's by CAP, the non-combatant civilian auxiliary of the Air Force.  There are 2 reasons why I believe we should do away with camouflage BDU's:

1. There is no need for camouflage in any of CAP's missions.

2. Camouflage is not ideal for SAR missions. 

The second point is especially true.  The first rule of emergency response is: don't become a victim.  Camouflage in the wrong setting can cause that to happen. 

People may argue that CAP should adopt camouflage to keep current with the Air Force, but the truth is, the Air Force needs it... CAP does not. 

Common sense would dictate that CAP uses BDU's because it was at one time (I SAID ONE TIME) in high production, routinely available at MCSS, orderable from the AAFES Catalogue, and the basic battle dress for the Armed forces, which meant CAP could acquire new and used surplus from the Federal Government (Like DRMO). 

That is the exact same reason CAP used the green fatigues (above reasoning is the same).

That is the exact same reason CAP continued to wear the Army Service Uniform well after 1947, because it was so highly available. 

However, today there is a new issue.  AAFES has discontinued stocking quantities of the BDU's in MCSS stores, and should by next fiscal year stop carrying them altogether because of the AF switch to the ABU. 

CAP does not wear battle dress because we are trying to be like the military, it is just plain ECONOMICS.

Wait until AAFES stops carrying black Combat boots in FY '08.  I bet we see a switch to the tan boots.

To go into more depth (which I am getting good at), the old style AF service coat that Cadets still wear will no doubt in a few years be discontinued.  There are only so many out there, and upkeep will cost too much.  CAP is like a HUGE recycle bin.  We get the AF hand-me-downs and we have gotten fairly good at using what we get. 

On a personal note, I am getting sick of people complaining about the blue and white name/CAP tapes and insignia.  We are stuck with them and need to live with it.  We are MORE STUCK with them now than ever before in our history.  You may ask why?  The simple truth is that Vanguard will fight and fight to keep producing those distinctive items.  They won out bigtime, and I would bet there is a clause in their contract with NHQ that states something to the point of not changing colors or thread type for at least 5 years, unless it advantageous to them to do it.  We should have pressed AF to allow subdued when the organization picked up the BDU's, but I guess there were more pressing matters.

WE can make a presentation to the AF when we switch over to the ABU that we need (because of economics) to use subdues patches.  Just think, we can maybe get AAFES to carry our items in the stores on a national scale again! 

Some good practical points in there, that's a good assessment of the situation.

Far as subdued.... We had been just like the AF on ODs before BDUs came along. When they went subdued in that change over, we asked to follow suit, they said we didn't need fully subued stuff & there was lots of stock of blue AF tape avail to keep it cheap for CAP for a while. Then it became an issue that a change would cause every member basically to replace everything on their BDUs & that'd get costly. It's since the maroon epaulets that they wouldn't have allowed us to look almost just like them. We still haven't earned our way back into the place we were then, and maybe never will. The truth is we don't need subdued, but white/grey on OD or even dark blue tapes would a massive improvement to professional image, and I can talk their language on some additional justification (solidarity, etc). Understand though that when they go to ABUs, everything will be on an ABU background, not OD. That makes OD cost effective for all the excess stock out there & distinctive from the AF, while still presenting a more professional appearance. This is something to worry about as that change works in to place though, which is still a couple years from now. White/gray/ultramarine on ABU would also be quite distinctive, but I don't think they'd buy that. I'd be happy to put the proposal together, but it's AF's call.

ANYWAY, back to what do you want to CUT from the uniform manual, not change, not add, not down the road, C-U-T cut?

[MIKE]

My argument for the BDU and by extension the ABU is simply that it is the Air Force style utility uniform, and not just a Battle Dress Uniform.  Heck, look at the Navy... They are replacing their solid color work uniforms with BDU like uniforms in camo patterns supposedly because they hide shipboard grime better.

[MIKE]

Now, that being said, can we get back to "What you'd eliminate" ?

ANYWAY, back to what do you want to CUT from the uniform manual, not change, not add, not down the road, C-U-T cut?

 

Next time one of these type of threads comes up, the topic starter should set the ground rules/format for the replies... See my list on the first page... Anything that doesn't match the format gets nuked... I've seen this used for similar threads other sites.  Sometimes there is a separate discussion thread that is linked to the topic, sometimes not.

Also, if you keep to the format and don't post something that somebody else already posted... Then Hawk200, doesn't need to recap the thread later.

... And do you guys need to quote someones entire post for some of these replies?  N00bs! 

[afgeo4]

Items to phase out:

AF blue cardigan
Service Cap (male and female)
Old style service dress coat.
Old style dress trouser.
Gray corporate slacks. (allow wear of blazer with TPU aviator shirt and blue pants but without cover)
Leadership ribbon.
Polo shirt (no longer a uniform, but can remain as appropriate civillian attire for summer and recruiting activities, just like the military uses their polo shirts)
US Flag on BDU/CUU (we only operate in the United States anyway)
All patches on BDU/CUU except for unit patch
Brown t-shirts
All baseball style caps other than black, bdu or navy (for CUU)
CAP cutouts on cadet blues.
Cadet Officer shoulder boards.

[MIKE]

Old style service dress coat.
Old style dress trouser.

Forgot about those! Other than those, I think most of the other older style stuff was phased out by the 1997 CAPM 39-1.

[ZigZag911]

 
CAP does not wear battle dress because we are trying to be like the military, it is just plain ECONOMICS.

Certainly a fair, reasonable point, worthy of consideration.

If the surplus supply ever dries up across the board (that is, ABU or its eventual successor for some reason becomes unavailable), then i think the issue needs to be re-addressed --why wear camouflage for CAP activities?

[ZigZag911]

My argument for the BDU and by extension the ABU is simply that it is the Air Force style utility uniform, and not just a Battle Dress Uniform.  Heck, look at the Navy... They are replacing their solid color work uniforms with BDU like uniforms in camo patterns supposedly because they hide shipboard grime better.

Probably for economic reasons, too, use available stock up as the other services change to ABU. ACU and so forth.

I surrender on the camouflage issue!

[DogCollar]

I feel somewhat conflicted by this thread.  I applaud the notion that our uniforms should be more in line with that which the USAF has.  However, I REALLY don't want to spend another $200 to $300 on uniforms!

The only compromise I can think of is utilizing the uniforms we already have and are allowed to wear, and removing all extraneous patches, ribbons, etc...to offer a more "classic" uniform look.

[SAR-EMT1]

I know that we are the Unpaid Auxiliary of the Air Force, however. Has it ever been proposed that we be given a uniform allowance? -- Similar to the annual credit CAC carrying personnel receive with which to purchase uniform items? I know that even a little bit could go a long way for ALOT of our membership.

Thoughts?

[JohnKachenmeister]

I feel somewhat conflicted by this thread.  I applaud the notion that our uniforms should be more in line with that which the USAF has.  However, I REALLY don't want to spend another $200 to $300 on uniforms!

The only compromise I can think of is utilizing the uniforms we already have and are allowed to wear, and removing all extraneous patches, ribbons, etc...to offer a more "classic" uniform look.

Eventually, we will be in the ABU, but it will take 10 years to fully phase in.  As a general rule, you double the Air Force's wear-out dates for new uniforms.  If Big Mother Blue plans 5 years to integrate a new uniform, plan on 10 for CAP. As you replace worn out BDU's you will eventually replace them with ABU's.

[DNall]

I know that we are the Unpaid Auxiliary of the Air Force, however. Has it ever been proposed that we be given a uniform allowance? -- Similar to the annual credit CAC carrying personnel receive with which to purchase uniform items? I know that even a little bit could go a long way for ALOT of our membership.

Cadets do, the free uniform program straight from the AF. If there's more money suddenly avail for cAP, what do you want to spend it on? Additional uniforms for cadets so everyone is covered; flight training; funded sarex; radios; most of a plane; or giving all seniors a credit at vanguard?

[SAR-EMT1]

I am aware of the free-uniform-for-cadets program. I am aware of it because when I joined as a cadet I paid over 300 dollars for a uniform, the day after I received my Curry they began that program 

My question was trying to ask if such a free uniform program had ever existed for Seniors. - I know the reasons why there isn't one now, and I think, given the costs and Vanguards non-existant service that the policy needs to be changed.

I understand your argument as to the other items that need to be purchased however, I mean this as something earmarked for uniform items ONLY. Not simply extra money that CAP can use as it pleases; but rather a Uniform allowance, just like that given to "regular" service personnel.

[Major Carrales]

I am aware of the free-uniform-for-cadets program. I am aware of it because when I joined as a cadet I paid over 300 dollars for a uniform, the day after I received my Curry they began that program 

My question was trying to ask if such a free uniform program had ever existed for Seniors. - I know the reasons why there isn't one now, and I think, given the costs and Vanguards non-existant service that the policy needs to be changed.

I understand your argument as to the other items that need to be purchased however, I mean this as something earmarked for uniform items ONLY. Not simply extra money that CAP can use as it pleases; but rather a Uniform allowance, just like that given to "regular" service personnel.

Free uniforms for seniors is a bad idea.  For the money that it would take to just buy someone a blues shirt (or aviator) one could by mission related materials like radios, tents and the like.  Or more items for cadets.

Plus, what about those that don't meet the standards?  This will create a disparity in costs for a uniform allowance.

I think this is a "black hat" moment (for those familiar with Dr. de Bono's "Six Hats"), you need to take such an idea and ask "what could go wrong with this?"  I have done so and found lots of possible precariousness.

[DNall]

right, it's just a matter of priorities.

[SAR-EMT1]

I reckon Ill accept that. Though, from a certain standpoint; you talking about the various types of uniforms: the Air Force could just as easily say: to be used at the Base Uniform Sales Kiosk for Air Force Style Blues ONLY. Not TPUS, flight suits etc...
it could have the benefit of having some perspective / current Seniors look at their weight and or appearance and make changes. Now am I saying that its required? no, Am I trying to drive away an older, overweight vet in the Greys? No Am I trying to discourage the hippie with long hair from signing up? NO. - Nor am I trying ot short change cadets/radios etc...
I'm just giving a source to purchase the AF type uniforms.

My personal deal is this: CAP means Come and Pay to some... but it shouldn't have to.

[dogden]

When I was in the Utah area we had a good relationship with Hill AFB, we had access to the airmans attic. If folks your state have access to these facilities you can get uniforms for free. My group commander here in Texas informed me that if we make the trip to San Antonio we can get the uniforms of the USAF BMT washouts if we help the San Antonio folks sort the uniforms they have.

From my experience if there is a need you can get the uniforms. There is no need for our members to pay for uniforms if they can't afford to do so, we just need to use the resources we have. If your commander isn't willing to find these resources, shame on the commander. If the units that have these resources are not willing to share, shame on them.