eServices announcement about ABUs

[AngelWings]

But then you cut off a big part of the Cadet Programs. Unless someone wants to suggest to the USAF to adopt a solid color CSAR uniform so we can use it, or have everyone wear flightsuits, I doubt we would fullfill the USAF's needs. Also, why can't we get a uniform with IR squares on it  . That'd solve the whole problem!

The CAP cadet program enjoys the use of a uniform as a tool that fulfills many purposes. Primarily the AF Blues and Service Dress uniforms. A unique CAP field uniform would not impact this portion of the program because A) field uniforms aren't the primary tool for teaching the sort of attention to detail that the Service Dress and Blues uniforms do, and B) it's still a uniform.

Also, what does CSAR have to do with anything? That's just silly. USAF CSAR crews don't wear BDUs or ABUs very often anyway.

I can tell you that the public will not be able distinguish us from the USCG because they too wear blue colored utilities. CSAR crews can choose them none the less (one of those cool features of the elite), and they just told us they would not let us buy a ABU digital uniform, so that rules out the ABG-S which is used and I doubt they'd let us adopt a theater uniform. CSAR has SAR in it, so why not suggest looking somewhat like them while they stateside, since we should mirror our USAF counterparts when we can. Also, don't forget, they aren't stateside in full battle rattle that much anyways, and from a few shows showing CSAR units, they were wearing regular USAF uniforms. Off topic, but there you go. If we don't look like the USAF, then you cut out a huge portion of our recruiting. People like the constant uniformity of military organizations, and the USAF Auxillary part plays key in what people expect of our uniforms to be.

[titanII]

It has been my experience that both service and BDU uniforms are used as the kind of tool you describe.

Indeed, many squadrons spend more time in BDUs than in service uniforms.  In those units I would expect that the BDU would indeed be the "primary tool for teaching" the cadets uniform-related lessons.

It is critically important for our cadets to be wearing current USAF-style uniforms wherever and whenever possible.

+1
My squadron wears BDU's probably 75% or more of the time

[AngelWings]

It has been my experience that both service and BDU uniforms are used as the kind of tool you describe.

Indeed, many squadrons spend more time in BDUs than in service uniforms.  In those units I would expect that the BDU would indeed be the "primary tool for teaching" the cadets uniform-related lessons.

It is critically important for our cadets to be wearing current USAF-style uniforms wherever and whenever possible.

+1
My squadron wears BDU's probably 75% or more of the time

Same here. A fellow MAWG cadet knows that blues stink when it gets cold up here 

[titanII]

Same here. A fellow MAWG cadet knows that blues stink when it gets cold up here 

brrrr... I was in blues a few weeks ago, and man...

[SPD6696]

"The main thing that makes the uniform visible in IR is the type of detergent you use."

Not entirely, or exclusively, true.  Yes, some detergents and starch are a HUGE problem.  Dyes used in the manufacturing are the critical issue.  As well as some fabrics.  There's a lot of info out there about this, and I'm not going to post it here.  Anyone interested can look it up.  Near infrared is a key phrase for searching.  From my 20 years of using NV, including PVS4, 5, 7 and 14, (as a Marine, Army Infantry, and AF SF, including combat) LOTS of things show up vividly, or not so vividly, with non-thermal devices.  Black is a huge one for HEY I'M HERE.  NATO green is practically invisible.

As far as ABUs, just relax.  It's only a matter of time until you all get to wear that ugly uniform.  Remember, CAP isn't about the uniforms, it's about the program.  Nobody should be getting their tiddy in a wringer about this.  Way back when, I was wearing green utilities as a cadet.  BDUs were not even an option.  Now, you all have BDUs, and you are pining for the ABU.  Chill.

[Ed Bos]

I can tell you that the public will not be able distinguish us from the USCG because they too wear blue colored utilities. CSAR crews can choose them none the less (one of those cool features of the elite), and they just told us they would not let us buy a ABU digital uniform, so that rules out the ABG-S which is used and I doubt they'd let us adopt a theater uniform. CSAR has SAR in it, so why not suggest looking somewhat like them while they stateside, since we should mirror our USAF counterparts when we can. Also, don't forget, they aren't stateside in full battle rattle that much anyways, and from a few shows showing CSAR units, they were wearing regular USAF uniforms. Off topic, but there you go. If we don't look like the USAF, then you cut out a huge portion of our recruiting. People like the constant uniformity of military organizations, and the USAF Auxillary part plays key in what people expect of our uniforms to be.

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that you are not a CSAR crewmember. That being said, I AM a CSAR crewmember, and you're way off base. Combat SAR and CAP SAR are very different animals, and one should not equate the two. There are many operational differences, the least of which are the uniforms that are worn.

[Spaceman3750]

I can tell you that the public will not be able distinguish us from the USCG because they too wear blue colored utilities. CSAR crews can choose them none the less (one of those cool features of the elite), and they just told us they would not let us buy a ABU digital uniform, so that rules out the ABG-S which is used and I doubt they'd let us adopt a theater uniform. CSAR has SAR in it, so why not suggest looking somewhat like them while they stateside, since we should mirror our USAF counterparts when we can. Also, don't forget, they aren't stateside in full battle rattle that much anyways, and from a few shows showing CSAR units, they were wearing regular USAF uniforms. Off topic, but there you go. If we don't look like the USAF, then you cut out a huge portion of our recruiting. People like the constant uniformity of military organizations, and the USAF Auxillary part plays key in what people expect of our uniforms to be.

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that you are not a CSAR crewmember. That being said, I AM a CSAR crewmember, and you're way off base. Combat SAR and CAP SAR are very different animals, and one should not equate the two. There are many operational differences, the least of which are the uniforms that are worn.

You know, there's something a little appealing about combat SAR vs. civil SAR. In civil SAR, when we get shot at, we move away. In combat SAR, you shoot back .

[Ed Bos]

The CAP cadet program enjoys the use of a uniform as a tool that fulfills many purposes. Primarily the AF Blues and Service Dress uniforms. A unique CAP field uniform would not impact this portion of the program because A)field uniforms aren't the primary tool for teaching the sort of attention to detail that the Service Dress and Blues uniforms do, and B) it's still a uniform.

Why do you say that?

It has been my experience that both service and BDU uniforms are used as the kind of tool you describe.

Indeed, many squadrons spend more time in BDUs than in service uniforms.  In those units I would expect that the BDU would indeed be the "primary tool for teaching" the cadets uniform-related lessons.

It is critically important for our cadets to be wearing current USAF-style uniforms wherever and whenever possible.

I say that for a few reasons:

1) As a "Key Trait of Cadet Life," the AF uniform is still a privilege that can be extended for cadets for the purpose of instilling teamwork and high standards of personal conduct by means of the Blues and Service Dress. In addition, cadets can enjoy wearing the same field uniform that (potentially) all CAP members wear for conducting field activities (in a situation where we have a single style of utility uniform for our single organization). The privilege of wearing any Civil Air Patrol uniform combination properly and proudly can be used to the same end.
Cite: CAPR 52-16 Para 1-2

2) The fact that many cadet units wear BDUs more often than Blues or Service Dress is a unit choice, and does not change whether that uniform is an Air Force Style uniform, or a uniquely CAP uniform. Since the only minimum required uniform is a service uniform (CAPR 39-1, Para 1-5), it is apparent to me that the Cadet Program can operate with any field uniform the organization chooses to adopt.

3) The reasons mentioned elsewhere on this board, for A) having a single uniform for a single organization, and B) the dangers of wearing cotton camouflage while conducting ground operations, may be resolved by adopting a single style of field uniform, while maintaining the option for USAF and/or corporate service uniforms.

4) I disagree on just how critical it is that our cadets resemble USAF members. The cadet program is more than the uniform. I've seen several youth organizations receive equally good or better support from the armed forces, some in woodland BDUs, some in organizational T-Shirts and jeans, and some in Khaki-colored BDUs. I submit that our relationship with the AF as a staunch supporter of the Cadet program would remain unchanged if the color of our fatigues differed from theirs. This is especially true if cadets continued to wear current USAF service uniforms ...which not all do, since the previous Service Dress jacket is still authorized for cadets...)

[Ed Bos]

You know, there's something a little appealing about combat SAR vs. civil SAR. In civil SAR, when we get shot at, we move away. In combat SAR, you shoot back .

It's a LOT appealing! 

[lordmonar]

In my uneducated SWAG.....we would see a drop of over 50% in new recruits if we dropped the USAF uniforms for cadets.....

The cadets join CAP (at least initially) to play Airman.  Loosing the uniforms and they may as well join the Boy Scouts (and this is not a hit on the BSA).

[Ed Bos]

LM-
I don't think so. With young people buying up knock-off MARPAT and CADPAT to play Airsoft, I think they'd be excited enough to wear any uniform. And besides, BSA has lots of young people in it... Our program has a lot more draw than the what color the fabric on your uniform is.

That being said, I'm kind of discouraged that our seniors are so convinced that's the major reason the cadets join.

[PHall]

LM-
I don't think so. With young people buying up knock-off MARPAT and CADPAT to play Airsoft, I think they'd be excited enough to wear any uniform. And besides, BSA has lots of young people in it... Our program has a lot more draw than the what color the fabric on your uniform is.

That being said, I'm kind of discouraged that our seniors are so convinced that's the major reason the cadets join.

The ones who are saying that are the ones who have been working in the cadet program for a number of years and it's based on their observations.

[HGjunkie]

About 67% of the reason I joined CAP initially was because I would have the ability to wear a variant of our Nation's Uniform. A lot of cadets have the primary motivator to join up tied into the uniforms, especially if they're coming from a military family or have aspirations to go into the military later on, etc.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

About 67% of the reason I joined CAP initially was because I would have the ability to wear a variant of our Nation's Uniform. A lot of cadets have the primary motivator to join up tied into the uniforms, especially if they're coming from a military family or have aspirations to go into the military later on, etc.

It's not just cadets.  I joined very much because of the Air Force connection.  If that were lost, a big part of the appeal of CAP to me would be lost.

[Spaceman3750]

About 67% of the reason I joined CAP initially was because I would have the ability to wear a variant of our Nation's Uniform. A lot of cadets have the primary motivator to join up tied into the uniforms, especially if they're coming from a military family or have aspirations to go into the military later on, etc.

It's not just cadets.  I joined very much because of the Air Force connection.  If that were lost, a big part of the appeal of CAP to me would be lost.

Second.

[SarDragon]

My initial, and continuing, reason for joining was the aviation factor. I have embraced that through the cadet program and ES during my 40+ years of membership. The uniform is kool, but hasn't been a big part of the attraction of CAP. I just wish that the heavy/fuzzy folks weren't considered second class members with regard to uniforms.

[FARRIER]

But then you cut off a big part of the Cadet Programs. Unless someone wants to suggest to the USAF to adopt a solid color CSAR uniform so we can use it, or have everyone wear flightsuits, I doubt we would fullfill the USAF's needs. Also, why can't we get a uniform with IR squares on it  . That'd solve the whole problem!

The CAP cadet program enjoys the use of a uniform as a tool that fulfills many purposes. Primarily the AF Blues and Service Dress uniforms. A unique CAP field uniform would not impact this portion of the program because A) field uniforms aren't the primary tool for teaching the sort of attention to detail that the Service Dress and Blues uniforms do, and B) it's still a uniform.

Also, what does CSAR have to do with anything? That's just silly. USAF CSAR crews don't wear BDUs or ABUs very often anyway.

When I first joined, as a cadet in the 80's. It was a newspaper article, showing cadets in uniform that caught my attention. Once in, then finding out that working Search and Rescue was one of the areas that got me access to aircraft, then SAR became as attractive. But the intial hook, as a 15 year old, was having the privilege of wearing the uniform of our armed forces. I'm in agreement with the others. No access to the ABU's could have an effect.

[Ned]

1) As a "Key Trait of Cadet Life," the AF uniform is still a privilege that can be extended for cadets for the purpose of instilling teamwork and high standards of personal conduct by means of the Blues and Service Dress. In addition, cadets can enjoy wearing the same field uniform that (potentially) all CAP members wear for conducting field activities (in a situation where we have a single style of utility uniform for our single organization). The privilege of wearing any Civil Air Patrol uniform combination properly and proudly can be used to the same end.
Cite: CAPR 52-16 Para 1-2

Ed,

It is always a little strange when two folks look at the same regulation and draw the opposite conclusion.

When I look at para 1-2a of the 52-16, I see "CAP promotes teamwork and high standards of personal conduct by granting cadets the privilege of wearing an AF-style uniform.  The uniform and the related traditions of rendering military customs and courtesies distinguish cadets from ordinary youth.  These military aspects of cadet life are important motivators. ( . . .)"

(I thought it was a particularly well-written paragraph.)

But it does not make any sort of distinction between AF-style service uniforms and AF-style field uniforms. 

Why do you think it does?   

2) The fact that many cadet units wear BDUs more often than Blues or Service Dress is a unit choice,

Sure.

and does not change whether that uniform is an Air Force Style uniform, or a uniquely CAP uniform.

Non-concur.  For over 60 years CAP cadets have worn the USAF style uniform.  What you are suggesting would represent a significant and radical change to a successful program.

Indeed, there is no reason to believe that "it doesn't matter if cadets wear the USAF uniform or not," and a substantial body of exerience to suggest that it is critically important for our cadets to wear the USAF style uniform.

3) The reasons mentioned elsewhere on this board, for A) having a single uniform for a single organization,

And as mentioned here on this board, the USAF has as many uniform combinations as we do, and they seem to have survived OK.

and B) the dangers of wearing cotton camouflage while conducting ground operations, may be resolved by adopting a single style of field uniform, while maintaining the option for USAF and/or corporate service uniforms.

Exactly what dangers are those, exactly, that cannot be cured by current safety regulations such as wearing an orange vest?  Can you point to any actual mishaps that have occurred in the last 20 years or so that was solely due to wearing BDUs that would not have occured if the member had worn BBDUs?

4) I disagree on just how critical it is that our cadets resemble USAF members. The cadet program is more than the uniform. I've seen several youth organizations receive equally good or better support from the armed forces, some in woodland BDUs, some in organizational T-Shirts and jeans, and some in Khaki-colored BDUs. I submit that our relationship with the AF as a staunch supporter of the Cadet program would remain unchanged if the color of our fatigues differed from theirs. This is especially true if cadets continued to wear current USAF service uniforms ...which not all do, since the previous Service Dress jacket is still authorized for cadets...)

I certainly cannot disagree with the notion that our terrific CP is "more than the uniform."  Similarly, it is mroe than mere AE, CD, and physical fitness.  It is more than "mere" leadership training.

But it is also more than the total of all these things.  It is a unique program that benefits from the synergy of all of these things as administered by our experienced senior members such as yourself.

If you want to look at a failed paradigm, take a look at the Air Scouts/ Air Explorers / (whatever they may call themselves this year).  In the 1960s - 1970s, they were more numerous than CAP cadets.  The Air Explorers had uniforms (non-USAF style), highly-trained adult leaders, and had a program that consisted of aerospace education, character development, physical fitness, and career exploration (including USAF careers.) 

Sound familiar?

And yet, the last time I spoke with a BSA official at their national headquarters, there were less than fifty Aviation Venturing Crews left nationwide.  Less than one per state. 

I submit that - despite superior advantages in infrastructure and adult training - the Air Scouts paradigm has been far less successful than the CAP CP because of our military training model.

A large part of which is founded in our identity as the USAF community-based cadet program.

Which is virtually impossible to pull off if our cadets are wearing something other than USAF-style uniforms.  We simply cannot accomplish our mission of developing Dynamic American Aerospace Leaders in t-shirts and jeans.


Ned Lee
CP Enthusidast.

[FARRIER]

If you want to look at a failed paradigm, take a look at the Air Scouts/ Air Explorers / (whatever they may call themselves this year).  In the 1960s - 1970s, they were more numerous than CAP cadets.  The Air Explorers had uniforms (non-USAF style), highly-trained adult leaders, and had a program that consisted of aerospace education, character development, physical fitness, and career exploration (including USAF careers.) 

Sound familiar?

And yet, the last time I spoke with a BSA official at their national headquarters, there were less than fifty Aviation Venturing Crews left nationwide.  Less than one per state. 

I submit that - despite superior advantages in infrastructure and adult training - the Air Scouts paradigm has been far less successful than the CAP CP because of our military training model.

A large part of which is founded in our identity as the USAF community-based cadet program.

Which is virtually impossible to pull off if our cadets are wearing something other than USAF-style uniforms.  We simply cannot accomplish our mission of developing Dynamic American Aerospace Leaders in t-shirts and jeans.


Ned Lee
CP Enthusidast.

I was a member of an Air Explorer Post, it was our CAP Squadron that was dual chartered at the time. Still have the patch in a shadow box.

[Ed Bos]

1) As a "Key Trait of Cadet Life," the AF uniform is still a privilege that can be extended for cadets for the purpose of instilling teamwork and high standards of personal conduct by means of the Blues and Service Dress. In addition, cadets can enjoy wearing the same field uniform that (potentially) all CAP members wear for conducting field activities (in a situation where we have a single style of utility uniform for our single organization). The privilege of wearing any Civil Air Patrol uniform combination properly and proudly can be used to the same end.
Cite: CAPR 52-16 Para 1-2

Ed,

It is always a little strange when two folks look at the same regulation and draw the opposite conclusion.

When I look at para 1-2a of the 52-16, I see "CAP promotes teamwork and high standards of personal conduct by granting cadets the privilege of wearing an AF-style uniform.  The uniform and the related traditions of rendering military customs and courtesies distinguish cadets from ordinary youth.  These military aspects of cadet life are important motivators. ( . . .)"

(I thought it was a particularly well-written paragraph.)

But it does not make any sort of distinction between AF-style service uniforms and AF-style field uniforms. 

Why do you think it does?   

2) The fact that many cadet units wear BDUs more often than Blues or Service Dress is a unit choice,

Sure.

and does not change whether that uniform is an Air Force Style uniform, or a uniquely CAP uniform.

Non-concur.  For over 60 years CAP cadets have worn the USAF style uniform.  What you are suggesting would represent a significant and radical change to a successful program.

Indeed, there is no reason to believe that "it doesn't matter if cadets wear the USAF uniform or not," and a substantial body of exerience to suggest that it is critically important for our cadets to wear the USAF style uniform.

3) The reasons mentioned elsewhere on this board, for A) having a single uniform for a single organization,

And as mentioned here on this board, the USAF has as many uniform combinations as we do, and they seem to have survived OK.

and B) the dangers of wearing cotton camouflage while conducting ground operations, may be resolved by adopting a single style of field uniform, while maintaining the option for USAF and/or corporate service uniforms.

Exactly what dangers are those, exactly, that cannot be cured by current safety regulations such as wearing an orange vest?  Can you point to any actual mishaps that have occurred in the last 20 years or so that was solely due to wearing BDUs that would not have occured if the member had worn BBDUs?

4) I disagree on just how critical it is that our cadets resemble USAF members. The cadet program is more than the uniform. I've seen several youth organizations receive equally good or better support from the armed forces, some in woodland BDUs, some in organizational T-Shirts and jeans, and some in Khaki-colored BDUs. I submit that our relationship with the AF as a staunch supporter of the Cadet program would remain unchanged if the color of our fatigues differed from theirs. This is especially true if cadets continued to wear current USAF service uniforms ...which not all do, since the previous Service Dress jacket is still authorized for cadets...)

I certainly cannot disagree with the notion that our terrific CP is "more than the uniform."  Similarly, it is mroe than mere AE, CD, and physical fitness.  It is more than "mere" leadership training.

But it is also more than the total of all these things.  It is a unique program that benefits from the synergy of all of these things as administered by our experienced senior members such as yourself.

If you want to look at a failed paradigm, take a look at the Air Scouts/ Air Explorers / (whatever they may call themselves this year).  In the 1960s - 1970s, they were more numerous than CAP cadets.  The Air Explorers had uniforms (non-USAF style), highly-trained adult leaders, and had a program that consisted of aerospace education, character development, physical fitness, and career exploration (including USAF careers.) 

Sound familiar?

And yet, the last time I spoke with a BSA official at their national headquarters, there were less than fifty Aviation Venturing Crews left nationwide.  Less than one per state. 

I submit that - despite superior advantages in infrastructure and adult training - the Air Scouts paradigm has been far less successful than the CAP CP because of our military training model.

A large part of which is founded in our identity as the USAF community-based cadet program.

Which is virtually impossible to pull off if our cadets are wearing something other than USAF-style uniforms.  We simply cannot accomplish our mission of developing Dynamic American Aerospace Leaders in t-shirts and jeans.


Ned Lee
CP Enthusidast.

Well, Colonel Lee, I think the fundamental disagreement we have is the impact a transition from the BDU to some unique CAP field uniform vs. the ABU will be.

I don't think Paragraph 1-2a of the 52-16 is specific to field or service uniforms.  Rather, the point I'm trying to make clear rests on 3 arguments/hypotheses:

1) From what I understand, the 60 years of wearing a USAF style uniform has put CAP in a position to wear obsolete uniforms during several uniform transitions on the part of the USAF. This tells me that we don't always wear the "same" uniform as our sponsoring service. Am I mistaken in this?

2) We would not abandon our ties to the USAF in any meaningful way if we transitioned to a single, uniquely-CAP, field uniform, especially considering that cadets can and should wear the USAF style service uniform.

3) Because the 39-1 states that the minimum uniform is a service one, there must be no compelling reason that any unit must wear the BDUs... This is something I was attempting to tie-in with Para 1-2 of the 52-16. The cadet program will continue to have a military flavor if the USAF service uniform is used as it currently is, and with whatever field uniforms come down the road for the organization.

I am saying that the privilege of wearing a different, and uniquely CAP field uniform can be just as effective as wearing a USAF-style CAP field uniform. This is precisely because "our terrific CP" is more than the uniform, more than mere AE, CD, physical fitness, and more than mere leadership training.

I do not recall having ever relied on the color of any uniform to determine the lessons at hand, either working specifically with the cadet program, or emergency services activities, and I truly believe that you have not either.

With your question regarding the dangers of wearing a cotton camouflage uniform, I have two points:

1)   If you'll accept an anecdote, I have personally had a difficult time responding to multiple urgent situations in the field, where I could not easily locate a cadet during training, partially because they were difficult to see in camouflage. The high-visibility of uniforms worn by other SAR agencies would have been much more helpful in those situations, as they are even easier to see when obscured by equipment and gear, than the ANSI II vests called for in the current guidance.

Note: Interestingly, though not authorized in the 39-1, "safety apparel" is authorized with corporate uniforms in CAPR 62-1, but prohibited with the BDUs in the same paragraph (Para 7-c).

2)   Even more than the color of our field uniforms, I am concerned that as a primary SAR agency, we continue to outfit ourselves (and our young cadets!) in cotton to conduct outdoor operations. A Google search of the terms "cotton" and "hypothermia" returns several hundred thousand websites, many of which repeat the mantra, "cotton kills."

Unrelated to the above, the "safety regulations," don't have much about conducting safe operations in them. They mention ORM, but don't specify how to mitigate any particular threat. The "safety regulations," appear to be mostly corporate CYA (please forgive the colloquialism) and how to fill out safety paperwork.

I know I'm not the only person to broadcast these particular points, but these both continue to be sticking points with many of my Ground Team Leader students when I discuss safety and mission readiness.

While I understand that the "safety" points I have brought up are not directly relevant to the importance of the USAF vs Corporate field uniform discussion, I think that the more efficient course of action in light of the AF conversion away from the BDU would be CAP also converting to another field uniform... just not the ABU.

I don't have nearly the same level of experience with CAP cadet programs that you do, but I truly believe that CAP cadets would still have an outstanding program with USAF service dress and CAP field uniforms (not T-shirts and jeans!).

Thanks for asking some good questions to guide my response back to the heart of the matter, and I hope I made myself clear in my attempt to communicate these thoughts.