Forget about CAP getting ABUs

[Major Carrales]

I have been involved with encampments for 10 years, 8 as a CC.  That is more than 1000 cadets from at least 5 states.

Never once has anyone indicated they could not come because they could not afford BDUs. 

That's because they did not apply.  We were donated a good number of bdus from an ROTC department, so we can provide most of what they need, for now.  Fact is, if I had to have them buy the field uniform, their parents would likely pull them from this new "MONEY PIT" that CAP would be.

[Major Carrales]

Has anyone here ever experienced a problem with cadets not having the prescribed uniforms for encampment?  And if you did what did you do in that situation? 
No sarcasm implied, this is a serious question, have you had the problem, and what did you do (if anything) to solve it?

I scoured the thrift shops and Army/Navy stores of 5 counties until I finally found it all.  If I had to do it tomorrow...I would not find anything in way of BDUs, I know...I keep and eye out.

[Eclipse]

I have been involved with encampments for 10 years, 8 as a CC.  That is more than 1000 cadets from at least 5 states.

Never once has anyone indicated they could not come because they could not afford BDUs. 

That's because they did not apply.

Oh, well, since you say so...come on. Seriously?

We were donated a good number of bdus from an ROTC department, so we can provide most of what they need, for now.  Fact is, if I had to have them buy the field uniform, their parents would likely pull them from this new "MONEY PIT" that CAP would be.

Either your cadets are either living at a level of economic strata that is far below the poverty line, in which case I sympathize, or they
have gotten used to a level of entitlement that is inappropriate.

IN the same way you off-handedly made an assumption above, I will make the assumption that these cadets claiming the inability to buy a field uniform are not carrying cell phones, ipods, or wearing $100 sneakers.

[Major Carrales]

....I'll bet that you would agree with me that we need fewer "regs hounds" ....

We'll always have reg hounds, doesn't matter how much we wish otherwise. If wishes were horses, CAP would also be mounted.

...and more dedicated seniors who just figure out ways to make our program work for the troops.

Agreed, but the hounds must be pacified as well. Writing pubs that are specific and correct has the added benefit of pacifying those reg hounds. When they find there's nothing to nit pick, they either move on or focus on more important things. Either way, the rest of us win.

Suffice it to say that, like the United States of America, the Civil Air Patrol is, at its heart, a nation of LAWS, not people.   This fact has been evident in the indignant tone that resonates here when someone points out that some Wing, Region or National Commander ordained some uniform exception or less than standard wear.

The Regs should be strong and stable guidelines, limited only by safety and common sense, and to fraught with contradictions.

[Major Carrales]

IN the same way you off-handedly made an assumption above, I will make the assumption that these cadets claiming the inability to buy a field uniform are not carrying cell phones, ipods, or wearing $100 sneakers.

Welcome to South Texas.  Our position is not to burden cadets and parents, but facilitate.  Football teams provide the equipment, shimels and jerseys.  As do Basketball teams and even the CHESS TEAM.   

Why do you all argue for the "MOST EXPENSIVE" choices for our cadets?  Are you afraid CAP might let in "the wrong sort?"  Can only those that can afford it all...RIGHT NOW...be in CAP?

[Eclipse]

In the timbre of is thread, there appears to be no way to say this is not CAP's responsibility without further being accused of being either heartless or disconnected.

CAP does not appoint CC's to be an open wallet for its cadets, nor are the units charged with supplying equipment and uniforms.  If you can
get them, more power to you, but that doesn't make it a failing on the unit CC if they are not interested in, or unable to, supply uniforms.

[Major Carrales]

In the timbre of is thread, there appears to be no way to say this is not CAP's responsibility without further being accused of being either heartless or disconnected.

CAP does not appoint CC's to be an open wallet for its cadets, nor are the units charged with supplying equipment and uniforms.  If you can
get them, more power to you, but that doesn't make it a failing on the unit CC if they are not interested in, or unable to, supply uniforms.

CAPTALK discussions often are for people to debate the abstract ideas in an open forum. .  This concept it what is clouding our meanings.  I suspect.

The basic premise is that the basic cadet uniform is an issue.

We assume the proposition that we are here to provide a program to the youth of America. 

Our Cadet Program is a great thing...it provides opportunities that are...for some...a "way out" of something bad, a "way in" for some seeking a certain lifestyle (be it military or aviation) and for some, sadly, a form of recreation because they are bored.

Thoughtless policies, like the flight suit patch listed above, cost unnecessary expenses.  Ours is not to have these "great ideas" where people are forced to spend money needlessly.

Yes, there must be some sacrifices...some expenditure.  That is a lesson well learned.

However, those that support a cadet uniform mandatory for some activities that is costly merely "because someone had a great idea" will receive no praise from me.  If there are surplus or serviceable uniforms available from DRMO and other sources, those are the ones we should use.   Not over priced ones from catalogs or clothing outlets.

That is the true issue I'm making...beyond the "abstract" ideas were seem to be hung up on.

Blues, as minimum basic service dress, are inadequate for our ES and PT needs.   Now, if we had a uniform like that of the boy scouts, which I am told can serve for Dress and Field functions, that would be a different matter.   One uniform for multi-purpose use would limit expenses.  However, that idea is a late 19th Century one that speaks more for WWI (where a single tunic served all purposes)

[Eclipse]

ES is an optional part of the program few cadets, as a whole, participate in, and PT can be done in civilian clothes.

CAP, Inc. is providing the majority of the uniform for the required parts of the program.  While the BSA is not a stringent a program as CAP, neither does it provide any uniform items whatsoever, it charges plenty for participation (or requires significant shilling of $18 bags of popcorn), and fully expects the Scouts who plan to excel and progress to have full uniforms and equipment.

You're not going to find an Eagle Scout in a blue T-Shirt and jeans any more than you will find a Spaatz without BDU's.

[Major Carrales]

ES is an optional part of the program few cadets, as a whole, participate in, and PT can be done in civilian clothes.

Then why do they need BDUs for encampment?

Your facts may be so nationally, but the "marching in squares and circles" CAP does not fly in my area.  Most cadets I deal with want "the whole experience;" and join for that purpose.

They want to D&C, protocol, Emergency Services, community service, O-Flights, present the colors, model rockets, "real" aerospace experiences and PT.  You have to "play to your audience."

If all we did every meeting was drill, leadership classes, make paper airplanes and PT tests...as per the bear minimums your comments make to me...I would be the lone CAP member in South Texas and former cadets would flock to gangs just to relieve boredom.

Maybe the above is why we don't retain as many cadets as we should.  CAP has to provide real opportunities and experiences to as maximum a level as possible.  Not just "minimum basic service."

[Eclipse]

Your facts may be so nationally, but the "marching in squares and circles" CAP does not fly in my area.  Most cadets I deal with want "the whole experience;" and join for that purpose.

And the "whole experience" is...not...free.  Anywhere.

They want to D&C, protocol, Emergency Services, community service, O-Flights, present the colors, model rockets, "real" aerospace experiences and PT.  You have to "play to your audience."

And you have to pay to play.

[SarDragon]

Then why do they need BDUs for encampment?

Because blues is not an appropriate uniform for many encampment activities. BDUs is a utility uniform, to be worn when the wearer is going to get dirty.

Would you do an obstacle course in your blues? I sure wouldn't.

Would you participate in rappelling in your blues? Nope, not that one, either.

Encampment isn't just about sitting around in classrooms, or getting tours of base facilities, where blues might do OK. There are outside activities where the cadets are going to get dirty, and BDUs are needed.

[Major Carrales]

Your facts may be so nationally, but the "marching in squares and circles" CAP does not fly in my area.  Most cadets I deal with want "the whole experience;" and join for that purpose.

And the "whole experience" is...not...free.  Anywhere.

They want to D&C, protocol, Emergency Services, community service, O-Flights, present the colors, model rockets, "real" aerospace experiences and PT.  You have to "play to your audience."

And you have to pay to play.

What separates us from the ordinary is that when people say "it cannot be done," we "do it" better than anyone could have dreamed.

I want them saving their money for the "big stuff," not the ordinary.

So, what?  You want cadets paying Hundreds of Dollars on some uniform just to show up to the meeting?  Or do you want them, instead, to save that money for advanced things?

If there are surplus or serviceable uniforms available from DRMO and other sources, those are the ones we should use.   Not over-priced ones from catalogs or clothing outlets.

[Major Carrales]

Then why do they need BDUs for encampment?

Because blues is not an appropriate uniform for many encampment activities. BDUs is a utility uniform, to be worn when the wearer is going to get dirty.

Would you do an obstacle course in your blues? I sure wouldn't.

Would you participate in rappelling in your blues? Nope, not that one, either.

Encampment isn't just about sitting around in classrooms, or getting tours of base facilities, where blues might do OK. There are outside activities where the cadets are going to get dirty, and BDUs are needed.

Excellent, I knew someone would prove my point.  Did you really think, SARDragon, that I needed an "education" on that? 

It seems that the "minimum basic service uniform" is not adequate for all CAP activities.

In fact, based on what people have said throughout CAPTALK...the utility uniforms might best be the basic and the "dress uniform" be the exception.  Leads to an interesting question... "Should the USAF provide a utility uniform instead of the short sleeve blues?"

[Eclipse]

What is next?

24-hour gear for each cadet so they can be a GTM? 

Full-ride travel scholarships to every NCSA?  How about a free ride for all to NESA & HMRS?  Comms is important - every cadet should have an HT!  Can't get email?  Here's a laptop and a free year of broadband service.

No home phone?  Here you go - fancy new Droid with unlimited minutes.

[Major Carrales]

What is next?

24-hour gear for each cadet so they can be a GTM? 

Full-ride travel scholarships to every NCSA?  How about a free ride for all to NESA & HMRS?  Comms is important - every cadet should have an HT!  Can't get email?  Here's a laptop and a free year of broadband service.

No home phone?  Here you go - fancy new Droid with unlimited minutes.

Don't be a schmuck...you know what is reasonable and what is ridiculous.  Providing a basic uniform is enough, especially when one is provided free already.  Anything else required should be equally reasonable to acquire at a reasonable price.

But if you want to go there...the squadron can have such equipment as GT items, color guard equipment and the like on hand and issued/checked out for use.


You still have not answered the question as to why you want them spending money (hundreds) that would best be spent on other things in CAP?

I'm of the opinion that you just want to argue.

[jimmydeanno]

"Should the USAF provide a utility uniform instead of the short sleeve blues?"

Again, the USAF doesn't provide the blues.  The question is, "Should CAP provide a utility uniform instead of the short sleeve blues?"

[Major Carrales]

"Should the USAF provide a utility uniform instead of the short sleeve blues?"

Again, the USAF doesn't provide the blues.  The question is, "Should CAP provide a utility uniform instead of the short sleeve blues?"

Slip of the keys...and my answer would be "yes."  USAF blues are much easier to find  (JROTC, SURPLUS STORES and ONLINE) than BDUs (going up in price and down in quality) these days.

[ZigZag911]

/quote]

Actually, the Preamble to the US Constitution begins "We the People..."
the same point is found in the Bible (Gospel): "The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath.".

Neither regs nor laws exist for their own sake, but to protect people (even from one another or themselves) and to enable people to work together toward a common goal. In society, this goal is building & maintaining a civil community; in CAP, the goal is accomplishing our missions.

[Major Carrales]

/quote]

Actually, the Preamble to the US Constitution begins "We the People..."
the same point is found in the Bible (Gospel): "The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath.".

Neither regs nor laws exist for their own sake, but to protect people (even from one another or themselves) and to enable people to work together toward a common goal. In society, this goal is building & maintaining a civil community; in CAP, the goal is accomplishing our missions.

Again, our nation is a nation governed by the rule of law, not of the individuals who represent the people. 

The Supreme Law of the Land is the Constitution...not the decrees of Executives, our Legislators nor our Judicial magistrates.   All that is done is done within the framework of the Constitution.  Thus, the President must not dictate law, the Congress cannot work in extra-constitutional or unconstitutional manners and those on the Court are held to benchmark public policy to that document.

The system of checks and balances, limited government and republican form of government are preserved in the US Constitution, which is followed to insure that government is consistent.

If the focus was on those "in charge," that would allow all manner of travesty in the name of "We the People..."  Thus, the People depend on the Constitution to serve as a social contract.  Once violated, those in power can be voted out.

CAP regulations have to serve the same purpose.  Accomplishing the missions through the framework of the Regulations and Manuals.   If the missions is, for example, to search for a lost pilot...the procedures in the Regulations must provide for order instead of chaos.   We could find the lost pilot...and lose three more in the process because of failure to adhere to certain regulations.


We all share a dislike of higher ups "making it up," "granting exceptions" or "granting certain favors" outside of the scope of properly established policy.  That, was a point I attempted to make.

We have these rules to insure safety, security and consistency.  Failure to maintain usable consistent and "more perfect" regulations that address real matters and are rooted in reality based circumstance/implementation is key to this process.  Severely flawed regulations with glaring contradictions hinder more than help.

[FARRIER]

We were donated a good number of bdus from an ROTC department, so we can provide most of what they need, for now.  Fact is, if I had to have them buy the field uniform, their parents would likely pull them from this new "MONEY PIT" that CAP would be.

Either your cadets are either living at a level of economic strata that is far below the poverty line, in which case I sympathize, or they
have gotten used to a level of entitlement that is inappropriate.

The silver spoon analogy doesn't work. Eclipse is correct. Unless all of today's teenagers, including the twelve year olds are no longer taught a work ethic, I'd bet they would convince thier parents to let them stay in CAP. They would figure out how to make the cash for the set of BDU's. And your implication somewhere in this thread that the cadets would all, otherwise, end up in the gangs speak poorly of the parents too.