Forget about CAP getting ABUs

[FARRIER]

Fundraising works wonders... I've been in extremely apathetic communities, and we still found a way to fundraise.

How about getting a part-time job. Many have had to do that to fund thier activities outside of school, not just CAP. Thats what I did,

[Ned]

CAP Regs say you can't require cadets to purchase uniforms and are issued one set of blues. So what happens when an encampment Ops Order lists cadet to have two sets of BDUs. What happens when the cadet shows up wearing his issued blues? Do you send him home? Or do you follow the regulation and allow him/her to attend? Many cadets can not afford $200 for two sets of BDUs (including boots).

What happens if the cadet shows up without a toothbrush, razor, or gym shorts?

What happens if the cadet tells you that she cannot afford to travel to and from encampment?

What happens if the cadet cannot afford the dues?

What happens if space monkeys arrive and steal the single set of blues?


I dunno what the right answer is for each of these questions.

But somehow experienced CP officers like yourself have been able to struggle through these and other problems for the last 60 years or so.

I can tell you that it was always my policy "that no cadet would be denied encampment for inability to pay the fees."  I've raised money for troops.  I talked to Lions and the TRW Employees Club when I needed to.  I let cadets borrow uniforms and looked the other way when the last name on the BDU tapes didn't match the one on the cadet's ID card. 

But ultimately, CAP Inc does not now have, nor is it ever likely to have the resources to have every cadet participate in the program completely free of cost.  And while I am not an Scout executive, I don't think they allow every youth to participate for free, either.  I'm sure they have scholarship programs and a lot of charitable groups that sponsor individual troops.

But it is unrealistic to think that we can magically provide a couple hundred thousand dollars worth of uniforms, encampments, books, materials, etc. to any cadet that asks.

All we can do is try to keep our costs as reasonable as possible and help out in exceptional cases when we can.

[tsrup]

tsrup...How do you get a Mitchell is you don't attend an encampment???

who said mitchell is required?

a commander "may" remove a cadet for not satisfactorally progressing through the program, but it isn't required that they progress at all.

whats the difference between a cadet who cant afford the BDU's for encampment from a cadet who can't afford encampment costs, or travel costs to the squadron or clean white undershirts for their blues, etc.

It's all a rediculous "what if" argument that has been solved many many times over by resourceful Squadron commandrs, but love to be flaunted as a "problem" on captalk.

[DakRadz]

Fundraising works wonders... I've been in extremely apathetic communities, and we still found a way to fundraise.

How about getting a part-time job. Many have had to do that to fund thier activities outside of school, not just CAP. Thats what I did,

Okay, but I wouldn't send my brother to work on a farm or at a gas station- last time I checked, they rarely hire 12 year old workers anyway...

I never said that CAP should provide, but for those who still count Tooth Fairy money and only get money holidays and birthdays- well, they can be instrumental in fundraisers and still earn uniforms if the squadron so chooses to buy them.

[HGjunkie]

Here's my 2 cents:

Fundraising works. As someone who's spent years in scouting, I can definetely say fundraising can help water down the costs for a new cadet/scout. In every troop i've been in, there's been this system called "scout accounts." What happens is, whenever a troop does a fundraiser, a certain portion of the funds go to the troop, and the rest of it is divvied up between the scouts who participated. The funds in your scout account can be used to buy uniforms, books, etc. That way, less money is being spent by the scouts/scout's parents.

Boyscout pants run $39.99
Boyscout shirt runs $39.99
Neckerchief runs ~$10.00
Miscellaneous patches etc $25.00

It's a moot point if your troop does regular fundraisers.

[FARRIER]

"At the age of seven, he took out a loan of $2.50 from the local bank to buy a lawn mower. His thriving lawn mowing business soon allowed him to pay back his loan."

http://www.horatioalger.org/members_info.cfm?memberid=SMI02

Fundraising works wonders... I've been in extremely apathetic communities, and we still found a way to fundraise.

How about getting a part-time job. Many have had to do that to fund thier activities outside of school, not just CAP. Thats what I did,

Okay, but I wouldn't send my brother to work on a farm or at a gas station- last time I checked, they rarely hire 12 year old workers anyway...

I never said that CAP should provide, but for those who still count Tooth Fairy money and only get money holidays and birthdays- well, they can be instrumental in fundraisers and still earn uniforms if the squadron so chooses to buy them.

[DakRadz]

Yes, and my teacher bought a house as a 17 year old, back in the day.

Would it work now? If I tried to take out a loan from the bank tomorrow as a 17 year old, I don't know that I could do it. Different day and age, however unfortunate

Great biography, though- inspiring!

[a2capt]

If the cadet has gotten that far, and thats all thats holding 'em up .. somehow I think a second BDU set would been acquired by then or isn't going to be the show stopper.

There are ways.

[jimmydeanno]

Here's my 2 cents:

Fundraising works. As someone who's spent years in scouting, I can definetely say fundraising can help water down the costs for a new cadet/scout. In every troop i've been in, there's been this system called "scout accounts." What happens is, whenever a troop does a fundraiser, a certain portion of the funds go to the troop, and the rest of it is divvied up between the scouts who participated. The funds in your scout account can be used to buy uniforms, books, etc. That way, less money is being spent by the scouts/scout's parents.

Boyscout pants run $39.99
Boyscout shirt runs $39.99
Neckerchief runs ~$10.00
Miscellaneous patches etc $25.00

It's a moot point if your troop does regular fundraisers.

My point was that many people expect that our non-profit corporation should carry the burden of supplying everything, or that what we've chosen is somehow more expensive/unaffordable to our members.  When the reality is that CAP has significantly lower costs for things, or comparable to other organizations.  Track down the price of a week long YMCA summer camp and see if encampment is a good deal.  How about the cost of COS or other NCSAs?  Even your membership dues each year return a greater benefit than you are investing (figure $35 for initial joining).  You get color, printed books, a binder, and a uniform. 

If you can fund raise and negate the costs of the uniforms, more power to you.

CAP spends its money on things to benefit its members educations, which I think is a far better investment than something that wears out or gets outgrown.

[DakRadz]

See the above.

Have you seen the cost of an Army Cadet Corps camp? Somewhere in the range of $2000. Don't like CAP, you could try them.... And guess what? They say to get people to sponsor you. Or fundraise. But it is YOUR responsibility.

[BillB]

A few years ago I did some research on retention of cadets from inner-city Squadrons or Squadrons with a fairly large cadet population from low income families. Unofficial because Wing has never bothered to do the research. I found that over 60% of the cadets that dropped out in the first year did so becuase they and their families could not afford the costs of CAP uniforms or activities. In reality, holding car washes or other fund raising activities doesn't put a dent in the costs to a cadet when it's divided among a medium size squadron. This research was only done in Florida, so circumstances may be different in other parts of the country.
Another 20% dropped out due to school work or having to work part time. Again a money problem for cadets in the low income environment. While the finance problems only apply to a small percentage of cadets, it was higher than originally expected, and not representative of the Wing as a whole. But losing over an statistically estimated 300 cadets a year is a fairly large percentage overall.
In part the problem could be lessened with Wing control of surplus uniforms from various sources. For example, one Squadron got a large amount of boots and BDUs from the Air National Guard. And they retained the uniforms. A University AFROTC Detachment and the high schoo, AFJROTC provided one Squadron over 100 sets of blues including shows. They went into storage. Thus many Squadrons have a large supply of uniforms, while a Squadron in the same city may have none. And uniform donations to Squadrons are not recorded by Wing to allow transfer to Squadrons with uniform needs. Squadrons don't even do any paperwork that they accepted surplus uniforms. Sure you can say uniforms are expendable items, thus no paperwork is needed, but on the other hand, uniforms in storage because no one at higher headquarters know they exist is a waste or resources.

[Major Carrales]

I have to agree, many of the cadets I sometimes encounter leave because they cannot afford to be in CAP.  If we did not, as a unit leadership, go out of our way to find BDUs items we would find ourselves with very little in that regard. 

Simply put, yes, CAP is not a "right"as much as it is a "privilege," but if we intend to make the claim that we "help youth" we cannot create a situation where only the wealthy and well off cadets benefit and the poor simply have to "buck up and make it work somehow or leave."

We should be creating an organization with reasonable expenses, from what we expect from uniforms items to the costs of encampments.

I am reminded, of some posts above, of a scene from the film 12 Angry Men where Ed Begley's character and E.G. Marshall's character are talking about how the youth, raised in a "poor home and filthy neighborhood," was somehow destined to become a criminal.  Most especially the part where Jack Klugman's character calls them on it claiming he "played in neighborhood full of garbage, maybe you can still smell it on me!"

Again, if our cadet program is going to make the claims that we are a boon to youth, then we need to make success more about attainable accomplishment instead of how much money to spend on these uniform items and mandatory promotion to Mitchell items, namely encampments.

And yes, I know economics, but I think a reasonable product can be made to lower cadet encampment tuition levels and reduce the burden to provide their own uniform items.

[a2capt]

Again. Scouting isn't any cheaper. Any programs, methods, etc., to get stuff into the hands of those who can't otherwise get it surely exist for all of it.

[Eclipse]

Simply put, yes, CAP is not a "right"as much as it is a "privilege," but if we intend to make the claim that we "help youth" we cannot create a situation where only the wealthy and well off cadets benefit and the poor simply have to "buck up and make it work somehow or leave."

We should be creating an organization with reasonable expenses, from what we expect from uniforms items to the costs of encampments.

Please define the "we".

The leaders work for free, the flying is free, the basic uniform is free, and the doors opened and opportunities offered far exceed any similar program for those so inclined.  Few units charge dues, and are per-year costs are the same or similar to other cadet-type programs.

[Major Carrales]

Simply put, yes, CAP is not a "right"as much as it is a "privilege," but if we intend to make the claim that we "help youth" we cannot create a situation where only the wealthy and well off cadets benefit and the poor simply have to "buck up and make it work somehow or leave."

We should be creating an organization with reasonable expenses, from what we expect from uniforms items to the costs of encampments.

Please define the "we".

The leaders work for free, the flying is free, the basic uniform is free, and the doors opened and opportunities offered far exceed any similar program for those so inclined.  Few units charge dues, and are per-year costs are the same or similar to other cadet-type programs.

We is all of us. 

The basic uniform is not sufficient to provide a cadet with the ability to attend all functions.  Encampment requires, usually, two sets of both field and dress uniforms.  See how far you can get in Emergency Services activities in Minimum Basic Service Dress.   A CAP where all cadets do is "march in circles and squares" ad infinitum and nothing else is doomed to failure. 

Having a new set of BDUs as an expense (which, with boots and insignia, will be greatly more than the membership dues) leads me to wonder why 1) field uniforms are not offered as part of the free uniform programs and 2) why the CAP does not adopt the field uniform of USAF as it exists now to facilitate the need for such uniforms.

My main gripe is toward those that seem to support the idea that cadets that are poor are dismissed as not being able to "make the sacrifice" because they cannot afford the items and fees for the activities mentioned above.


 

[FARRIER]

Some of these kids are pretty sharp and will be able to figure out ways, to work for the money, for these items. Joe, you don't give them enough credit.

Simply put, yes, CAP is not a "right"as much as it is a "privilege," but if we intend to make the claim that we "help youth" we cannot create a situation where only the wealthy and well off cadets benefit and the poor simply have to "buck up and make it work somehow or leave."

We should be creating an organization with reasonable expenses, from what we expect from uniforms items to the costs of encampments.

Please define the "we".

The leaders work for free, the flying is free, the basic uniform is free, and the doors opened and opportunities offered far exceed any similar program for those so inclined.  Few units charge dues, and are per-year costs are the same or similar to other cadet-type programs.

We is all of us. 

The basic uniform is not sufficient to provide a cadet with the ability to attend all functions.  Encampment requires, usually, two sets of both field and dress uniforms.  See how far you can get in Emergency Services activities in Minimum Basic Service Dress.   A CAP where all cadets do is "march in circles and squares" ad infinitum and nothing else is doomed to failure. 

Having a new set of BDUs as an expense (which, with boots and insignia, will be greatly more than the membership dues) leads me to wonder why 1) field uniforms are not offered as part of the free uniform programs and 2) why the CAP does not adopt the field uniform of USAF as it exists now to facilitate the need for such uniforms.

My main gripe is toward those that seem to support the idea that cadets that are poor are dismissed as not being able to "make the sacrifice" because they cannot afford the items and fees for the activities mentioned above.

[Patterson]

My main gripe is toward those that seem to support the idea that cadets that are poor are dismissed as not being able to "make the sacrifice" because they cannot afford the items and fees for the activities mentioned above.

Thank you!  Everyone else fails to understand that concept.  In my unit, I have three types of Cadets....

1) From the Private Schools
2) From the Public Schools
3) From the "Almost Schools"

Each type lives according to what they are capable of accessing.  The Loewr income kid may only have the Cash for Dues and the insignia for the free blues.  Ok...... we stand outside WalMart for a day and get enough $$ to buy the Cadet a set of BDU's or whatever they need. 
Heck, I have a few Cadets that attend Private Schools, whose Parents only make enough to pay FOR Private School.  They live on Ramen Noodles and Sloppy-Joes.

[LTC Don]

a commander "may" remove a cadet for not satisfactorally progressing through the program, but it isn't required that they progress at all.

CAPR 52-16, page 15.  You may already know this but:

c. Failure to Progress. Cadets who fail to progress in the Cadet Program by completing at least two achievements per year may be terminated from the program (see CAPR 35-3, Membership Termination).

Proactive squadrons should already be doing this as well to hopefully minimize the financial impact, and create parent groups to help fundraise for activities and uniforms:

(2) Partnership with Parents. Parents (or guardians) should be invited to the first meeting. The squadron commander (or deputy commander for cadets) should personally meet with the parents to discuss the goals and benefits of the Cadet Program, as well as the financial costs of membership, meeting schedules, contact information and cadet protection policies. See the Parents' Guide to Civil Air Patrol at www.cap.gov/parents for more information.

No doubt, cadet program management is hard, probably the hardest job in the organization.


Cheers,

[tsrup]

a commander "may" remove a cadet for not satisfactorally progressing through the program, but it isn't required that they progress at all.

CAPR 52-16, page 15.  You may already know this but:

c. Failure to Progress. Cadets who fail to progress in the Cadet Program by completing at least two achievements per year may be terminated from the program (see CAPR 35-3, Membership Termination).

emphasis mine...

again.

No cadet of mine would ever be kicked out of the program just because they didn't have BDU's or couldn't afford encampment. 

If the cadet wanted it enough, we (as a squadron) would make it happen.

[a2capt]

Thank you!  Everyone else fails to understand that concept.

Not quite. As I noted, "there are ways.." in our unit, too, though money is usually a private factor with cadets, we make it clear if anyone has issues, with anything including finance.. and it's usually announced by the chaplain. Don't be embarrassed, etc.

Again, scouting is just as expensive when you look at it, perhaps even more so. CAP does provide a lot more return on that dues investment than many other similar organizations.