According to the AF Times, the Air Force will be moving to the MultiCam uniform and dropping the ABUs. They're already basically starting the switch for deploying troops in certain job types. No word on when everyone else will be switching.
http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2010/09/air-force-airmen-to-get-multicam-pattern-091110w/
So, considering the fact that the AF has starting wearing ABUs in 2006 and 4 years later CAP hadn't started doing so, in all likelihood, we will continue to be in BDUs for another 5 years until they complete their transition to MultiCam.
About the only thing that might speed that schedule up is that if production of the MultiCam really shifts into super high gear. I really have a hard time figuring out why uniform changes take so long for the services. Heck, WWII was quicker than the AF BDU-ABU switch.
Of course, by the time they let CAP swithc, CAP and the AF will have been wearing different uniforms for about 10 years, which will almost have made the practice traditional. I kinda wonder if the AF will be interested in bringing us back into the fold by then.
It sounds like the USAF is providing MultiCam for airmen deployed to A-stan and working outside the wire. I didn't see where they would be rolling it out service-wide and phasing out the ABU.
From the article:
QuoteOnly airmen with jobs that take them off base, such as security forces and provincial reconstruction team members, will get the new ABS-G. Everyone else will still wear the digital tiger stripe airman battle uniform, first issued in 2006.
To dump the ABU would be admitting that several high ranking officers made a number of bad decisions.
Ain't gonna happen... >:D
Quote from: PHall on September 12, 2010, 04:18:38 PM
To dump the ABU would be admitting that several high ranking officers made a number of bad decisions.
Ain't gonna happen... >:D
Until said officers and SNCOs are retired
BDUs are already getting scarce, if we are going to wear them for another 5 years, where are we going to find them?
Quote from: DBlair on September 12, 2010, 04:26:58 PM
BDUs are already getting scarce, if we are going to wear them for another 5 years, where are we going to find them?
Propper, Ebay, Army Navy stores, and other places. I can get a new set of BDUs easily through Propper, Army Navy stores either order new ones or sell surplus.
Propper BDU Blouse (https://www.epropper.com/products/40/category/49/BDU_4-Pocket_Coat.htm)
Propper BDU Trousers (https://www.epropper.com/products/5/category/49/BDU_Trouser_-_Button_Fly.htm)
Barre Army Navy BDUs (http://www.vtarmynavy.com/Woodland_Camo_BDU.htm)
Edit- added links
Quote from: dwb on September 12, 2010, 04:13:31 PM
It sounds like the USAF is providing MultiCam for airmen deployed to A-stan and working outside the wire. I didn't see where they would be rolling it out service-wide and phasing out the ABU.
From the article:
QuoteOnly airmen with jobs that take them off base, such as security forces and provincial reconstruction team members, will get the new ABS-G. Everyone else will still wear the digital tiger stripe airman battle uniform, first issued in 2006.
That is just what they're doing right now.
QuoteTo dump the ABU would be admitting that several high ranking officers made a number of bad decisions.
Ain't gonna happen...
The decision has been made. Done deal.
The fact that the official name for the pattern is: "Operation Enduring Freedom Camouflage Pattern" is a clue that this isn't a permanent switch force wide. The article mentions several times that its only for airmen doing jobs outside the wire in A-stan. It even plugs very specifically that airmen going to Iraq will not be getting it.
The Air Force is not about to start a force wide transition to a new uniform when they're not even done with their transition to the (old)new one. Not in this climate of budget restrictions and belt tightening. They made their bed with the ABU, now they gotta lie in it.
Congress mandated last year in the Defense Approparations bill that the services will go back to one "field" uniform.
Looks like Multi-Cam may be that uniform.
Quote from: RiverAux on September 12, 2010, 05:08:28 PMThat is just what they're doing right now.
Well, you're the one that linked to the article. Do you have another one that says "ABU officially being phased out"? Or are you just conjecturing?
Several statements in the article, including the title:
QuoteAirmen will receive MultiCam, eventually
QuoteThe big unknown: When airmen will get the MultiCam ABS-G and its final design.
Both certainly imply that this is going service wide at some point.
Yeah, you can't just take those two lines out of context though. Airmen working outside the wire will wear Multi-Cam. Them talking about the big unknown is when the Airman working outside the wire will get their hands on the new uniform. Not when it'll be the new branch wide USAF utilities. I think you're reading too much into it.
I agree that Multi-Cam may very well be what all the forces end up in, but the problem right now is that the Army as MultiCam-ACU and USAF will have a MultiCam-ABU. That's not really any cost savings to the end users, just more profits for the company that designed the Multi-Cam pattern.
Was rather ticked off when i read this because, well those ABU's i purchased were expensive, so i asked in our commander's call and the answer is, according to 509th BW commander, that ABU's are here to stay and that only those going to Afghanistan AND working outside the wire will receive them....so at least for several more years ABU's will be the basic uniform....
What I am afraid of is the eventual change to a new uniform. And lets face it AWFUL taste, at CAP NHQ and the Air Force.
The awful choices that the CAP Uniform Committee (or some such decision maker at NHQ) combined with the Air Force, will make, to make us look silly and not military, like red haired step children. Yes, what awful looking combination in BDU, or ABU, they will come up with, that will have too look "different" because of wims of the Power that Be.
CAP is not in charge of our look anymore. The Air Force is. the Air Force, the AF having the worst Uniform taste in the last few years. IE Billy Mitchell and Airline LOOK, uniforms.
Maroon BDUs perhaps? Am I being sarcastic, YES!
The new dogma seems to be CAP cannot even look like we are associated with the Air Force.
I am coming from the view point of someone that meets Air Force weight standards. 6ft and athletic fit, Yeah! Hey I lost 35 lbs! Work closely with Cadets through a HOT SUMMER and see how easy it is! Is this enough gasoline on the fire for this thread?
Quote from: Earhart1971 on September 12, 2010, 07:27:35 PM
Is this enough gasoline on the fire for this thread?
Yep. ::)
Why do we need to be in camo any way? Yes I hear the people saying because they are cheap and easy to find but so many are pushing for the new ABU's or the multi cam or what ever. There is no cheap outlet for that stuff or real used market out there. Blue is just fine for anything we need
Debates of the need for camo, as well as the "too many uniform changes" aside, I'm curious as to why "authorization" for us to wear the current AF uniform has to come long after the AF starts wearing it. We don't get our utility uniforms from the AF like we do blues through the Cadet FCU, so as far as I can see, there's not an issue of "they need to go to the Active, Reserve, Guard, ROTC, etc. first"...
Why can't we be authorized along with everyone else? We'll just be purchasing them from civilian vendors, anyway. Anyone care to explain?
(http://wiki.cadetstuff.org/images/7/77/Nin43.jpg)
(http://grunts.free.fr/tews/6994ss_fichiers/d.jpg)
It would be cool if we went to jungle fatigues like back in the day (minus the beret). I like the slanted nametapes.
Keep in mind that the source is the Air Force Times, which isn't exactly considered to be a paragon of journalism.
Quote from: PHall on September 12, 2010, 06:12:59 PM
Congress mandated last year in the Defense Approparations bill that the services will go back to one "field" uniform.
Looks like Multi-Cam may be that uniform.
That's what we need to do in CAP, 1 utility "field" uniform to use by all with the same color, (blue as current or maybe black) that everyone in CAP can wear regardless of weight, hair, beards, etc... Ideally also a uniform that does not confuse us with ANY US military service :angel:
RM
Quote from: HGjunkie on September 12, 2010, 09:41:21 PM
(http://wiki.cadetstuff.org/images/7/77/Nin43.jpg)
Heh, Nin. :)
So, I heard about the Multi-Cam switch about two weeks ago.
Anyone else have such privileged information as to have heard early? 8)
My source is under the impression that this will be a Force-wide switch. My source is credible.
From the article, lines that make me think this is Force-wide
Airmen will receive MultiCam, eventually (as previously posted)
The big unknown: When airmen will get the MultiCam ABS-G and its final design.
Quote from: DakRadz on September 13, 2010, 03:13:00 AM
So, I heard about the Multi-Cam switch about two weeks ago.
Anyone else have such privileged information as to have heard early? 8)
My source is under the impression that this will be a Force-wide switch. My source is credible.
From the article, lines that make me think this is Force-wide
Airmen will receive MultiCam, eventually (as previously posted)
The big unknown: When airmen will get the MultiCam ABS-G and its final design.
You're source is not listed nor part of the conversation. :)
That said, there have been articles out about Senators/Congressmen pushing for a single uniform *most likely MultiCam*, way back some 6 months ago.
My source is my USAF-retired MSgt who is a JROTC instructor. The instructor part makes him privy to lots of AD sources/information/announcements, because JROTC Instructors must meet the standards for uniform wear and wear the uniforms authorized by the USAF.
He told me about how ABUs would be gone in favor of OCP. Two weeks ago, prior to any announcement by official sources.
He no happy bout dis. No one bit. [/spail chek]
FWIW- I was searching for an AF Times article the day he told me- he knew before they wrote. I couldn't find anything through Google that said the AF was even considering OCP (except the PJs, but they've been doing it since the beginning).
Quote from: DakRadz on September 13, 2010, 03:56:39 AM
My source is my USAF-retired MSgt who is a JROTC instructor. The instructor part makes him privy to lots of AD sources/information/announcements, because JROTC Instructors must meet the standards for uniform wear and wear the uniforms authorized by the USAF.
He told me about how ABUs would be gone in favor of OCP. Two weeks ago, prior to any announcement by official sources.
He no happy bout dis. No one bit. [/spail chek]
FWIW- I was searching for an AF Times article the day he told me- he knew before they wrote. I couldn't find anything through Google that said the AF was even considering OCP (except the PJs, but they've been doing it since the beginning).
Speaking as a Retired Air Force Reserve guy, we don't have any "inside" sources of infomation.
We read the AF Times just like everybody else does.
http://www.army.mil/-news/2010/03/02/35184-soldiers-deploying-to-afghanistan-to-get-new-multicam-uniforms-boots-gear/index.html (http://www.army.mil/-news/2010/03/02/35184-soldiers-deploying-to-afghanistan-to-get-new-multicam-uniforms-boots-gear/index.html)
Army story about deployments with MultiCam.
March 2nd. Around the same time, a congressman began to circulate a bill to move to one field Uniform.
Quote from: DakRadz on September 13, 2010, 03:13:00 AM
So, I heard about the Multi-Cam switch about two weeks ago.
Anyone else have such privileged information as to have heard early? 8)
My source is under the impression that this will be a Force-wide switch. My source is credible.
From the article, lines that make me think this is Force-wide
Airmen will receive MultiCam, eventually (as previously posted)
The big unknown: When airmen will get the MultiCam ABS-G and its final design.
Google Is Your Friend:
http://www.centaf.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123116783
The ABS-G will be distributed in the February 2009 timeframe. The testing phase will most likely last 18 to 24 months. Several Airmen are wear-testing the ensemble in selected units in the AOR now.
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on September 13, 2010, 12:26:39 AM
Quote from: HGjunkie on September 12, 2010, 09:41:21 PM
(http://wiki.cadetstuff.org/images/7/77/Nin43.jpg)
Heh, Nin. :)
As I understand it, this was not authorized (with Jungle slanted potckets) at the time that photo was taken and likely never was.
Someone on this thread thinks it's a bad thing that the Air Force controls our uniforms.
I beg to differ. The Air Force SHOULD be in charge of our uniforms. Look at what CAP does to uniforms when the Air Force isn't guarding the henhouse:
-- Maroon circlets
-- Maroon epaulets
-- Guyabera shirt
-- Corporate blue uniform ("TPU") and all the mistakes it wrought
-- All those enamel shield badges, placed in three (count 'em, three) authorized positions
-- And the list goes on and on. Those are just the things I could think of quickly.
Those who think CAP should be more "corporate" need to take a good look at our history and our legacy. We're in military uniforms for a reason, and as a tradition. Our relationship to the Air Force has been the one thing that's kept us afloat in our darkest periods. Those who shun the military identity of CAP are those who would destroy the organization -- without the Air Force, the cadet program becomes the Boy Scouts who fly and the senior members have to shell out lots more money to fly airplanes that are broken down much more often.
OK, sorry, rant over.
The jungle fatigues were authorized when we in the transition phase from the green utilities to the BDU's. Since I don't have a copy of that particular 39-1, I can't quote the paragraph, but we were not authorized for the BDU's yet and the green utilities were starting to become in short supply. The jungle fatigues were allowed to make up for the shortage. This was around the late 80's. If there was any other times in our history, I'll have to let the "older timers" chime in.
Respectfully.
Quote from: Major Carrales on September 13, 2010, 06:41:32 AM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on September 13, 2010, 12:26:39 AM
Quote from: HGjunkie on September 12, 2010, 09:41:21 PM
(http://wiki.cadetstuff.org/images/7/77/Nin43.jpg)
Heh, Nin. :)
As I understand it, this was not authorized (with Jungle slanted potckets) at the time that photo was taken and likely never was.
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on September 13, 2010, 07:10:03 AM
Someone on this thread thinks it's a bad thing that the Air Force controls our uniforms.
I beg to differ. The Air Force SHOULD be in charge of our uniforms.
I agree with much of what you say, but I think some clarification is in order.
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on September 13, 2010, 07:10:03 AM
Look at what CAP does to uniforms when the Air Force isn't guarding the henhouse:
-- Maroon circlets
-- Maroon epaulets
Those were not done by CAP. Those were imposed on us by the Air Force, to "put us in our place," for several reasons, depending on who you believe. The AF's official line at the time was "it was to make CAP more distinctive," as in "when senior NCO's see your maroon epaulettes they will know they don't have to salute you, no matter how much a few of you whose heads have got too big for your collars will try to make them think so." Thanks to a few bad apples, the whole barrel has had to bend over and say "thank you sir may I have another!"
I hated those bloody things. They were imposed just before I joined CAP, and when the grey epaulettes were allowed in '95 my old berry boards went in the dustbin.
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on September 13, 2010, 07:10:03 AM
-- Guyabera shirt
I don't think I ever saw anyone actually
wear one of those...just pix in the old CAP Bookstore catalogue.
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on September 13, 2010, 07:10:03 AM
-- Corporate blue uniform ("TPU") and all the mistakes it wrought
That was one mistake that didn't need to be a mistake. Yes, the Generalissimo was the instigator of that, but one thing that seems to be often forgot is:
The Air Force signed off on it after the modifications they directed (no hard rank on the flight cap, etc) were made, including the hard rank and blue epaulettes.It was only in fairly recent months that a few people in the AF
who probably don't even know who we are saw us wearing "their" uniform (which looked more like a Soviet Air Force officer's) and got a bee in their bonnet over it. They grumbled to their first shirts, first shirts grumbled to wing kings...and true to form, National used a guillotine to cure a headache because many of them still walk on eggshells over the memory of the berry boards.
Even the modified form of the CSU authorised by General Courter isn't enough...if you don't/can't wear AF-style your only choice is to be the plug-ugly un-aviation looking (in my own biased opinion) grey, which makes us look like a cross between mall cops and the East German Army.
The "distinctiveness" clause, especially the meaningless "low-light-at-a-distance" nonsense which depends entirely on the
ocular impairment point of view of the observer, is a big reason National seems to be so scared of anything blue and inexplicably in love with grey.
It doesn't happen with the CGAUX, the NSCC or the Army Cadets...but when someone in CAP raises the issue of uniforms, people at National reach for the Pepto.
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on September 13, 2010, 07:10:03 AM
-- All those enamel shield badges, placed in three (count 'em, three) authorized positions
You don't have to wear all of them. I don't wear all the ones I qualify for.
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on September 13, 2010, 07:10:03 AM
Those who think CAP should be more "corporate" need to take a good look at our history and our legacy. We're in military uniforms for a reason, and as a tradition. Our relationship to the Air Force has been the one thing that's kept us afloat in our darkest periods. Those who shun the military identity of CAP are those who would destroy the organization -- without the Air Force, the cadet program becomes the Boy Scouts who fly and the senior members have to shell out lots more money to fly airplanes that are broken down much more often.
The "corporatists" almost helped to sink us about 15 years ago. John McCain wanted to remove us from the Air Force entirely and give us to the Department of Transportation, and there were not a few people in CAP's hierarchy who were in favour of that - no more uniform "hassles," just let us fly.
I've been in CAP for 17 years (with a couple of breaks in service) and the day we are removed from the AF...well, I hope I have enough time in for my "retirement" certificate.
Quote from: HGjunkie on September 12, 2010, 09:41:21 PM
(http://wiki.cadetstuff.org/images/7/77/Nin43.jpg)
It would be cool if we went to jungle fatigues like back in the day (minus the beret). I like the slanted nametapes.
Thanks for using my mug. :)
THIS appears... http://aimpoints.hq.af.mil/display.cfm?id=40903 (http://aimpoints.hq.af.mil/display.cfm?id=40903)
Hooray Multicam
<sigh>
It's the same article...?
Merged.
Quote from: NIN on September 13, 2010, 03:56:22 PM
Quote from: HGjunkie on September 12, 2010, 09:41:21 PM
(http://wiki.cadetstuff.org/images/7/77/Nin43.jpg)
It would be cool if we went to jungle fatigues like back in the day (minus the beret). I like the slanted nametapes.
Thanks for using my mug. :)
Found it on Google. :P
Quote from: HGjunkie on September 13, 2010, 07:05:34 PMFound it on with Google. :P
Google doesn't generally host anything. Caches.. but subject to the condition of the existing item.
Quote from: HGjunkie on September 13, 2010, 07:05:34 PM
Quote from: NIN on September 13, 2010, 03:56:22 PM
Quote from: HGjunkie on September 12, 2010, 09:41:21 PM
(http://wiki.cadetstuff.org/images/7/77/Nin43.jpg)
It would be cool if we went to jungle fatigues like back in the day (minus the beret). I like the slanted nametapes.
Thanks for using my mug. :)
Found it on Google. :PJungles were authorized. Don't know about the short sleeves though. I know we used to wear short sleeves on the pickle suits. With shirt tails out and boots unbloused, you looked like you were wearing OD Dickies.
Quote from: FARRIER on September 13, 2010, 07:24:30 AMThe jungle fatigues were authorized when we in the transition phase from the green utilities to the BDU's. Since I don't have a copy of that particular 39-1, I can't quote the paragraph, but we were not authorized for the BDU's yet and the green utilities were starting to become in short supply. The jungle fatigues were allowed to make up for the shortage. This was around the late 80's. If there was any other times in our history, I'll have to let the "older timers" chime in.
That sounds right. I do remember the Army used stocks of plain green jungle utilities to make up for the shortage of BDU when we were making the transition to them, and also to get rid of the things. They had been unique to us & rangers and suddenly everybody had them on. Probably CAP was given the same option, I wasn't active at the time
Jungle Fatigues were worn in the 70s, by some Seniors and Cadets in Florida Wing. We also had a Florida Wing Ranger School that operated out of Eglin with the Army Ranger School. I remember being on a Cadet Advisory Council Committee at Florida Wing, we wrote a manual on how to do the tapes and badges on them.
I had a set of Jungle Fatigues as a Cadet, and they were great for Florida and the heat.
Quote from: Earhart1971 on September 14, 2010, 07:17:39 PM
I had a set of Jungle Fatigues as a Cadet, and they were great for Florida and the heat.
Thats the one thing we all need to remember. There is no one uniform that will work for all. The uniform that is great in the heat of Florida is not that great in the winters of Maine. CAP is going to get people talking what we should have or should not have but there is really no good reason for any kind of a camo uniform. The only thing that even comes close is that kids think it's cool and that gets more cadets. The adults that still fight for them must have never grown up.
Why not adopt an OD Green BDU for everyone? Readily available, not currently used by the military, harkens to our past, functional, rugged and has the tacti-kewl look cadets crave? I was a fan of Stonewalls proposal a couple of years ago of an OD green ACU but think we should go with a BDU cut uniform to mirror the cut of the ABU or Multicam uniforms the AF is adopting.
(http://www.nexternal.com/armynavy/images/vietnam-fatigue-shirt--od1.gif)
(http://www.nexternal.com/armynavy/images/jungle-fatigues.gif)
I like it. I have one of these in my closet from my dad being in the Army, and they're pretty neat.
^^^ A bit nostalgic, heh. >:D
A more contemporary version here.
(http://www.armysurplusworld.com/custom/photos/olivedrabbdushirt.jpg)
But I want the slanted pockets! >:D
Quote from: HGjunkie on September 12, 2010, 09:41:21 PM
(http://wiki.cadetstuff.org/images/7/77/Nin43.jpg)
That's a Michigan Wing cadet in the pic wearing the black beret they authorized if you went to the survival school on Drummond Island. Cool, I remember this totally. Am I right NIN?
LoL, NIN. :P
Quote from: Gung Ho on September 15, 2010, 03:28:57 PM
The adults that still fight for them must have never grown up.
Nice broad brush you've got there...
Quote from: Gung Ho on September 15, 2010, 03:28:57 PMThere is no one uniform that will work for all. The uniform that is great in the heat of Florida is not that great in the winters of Maine.
That's an interesting, but puzzling POV.
The military services don't seem to see it that way. We wear the same stuff in Florida and Maine, with the same additions allowable by CAP to increase warmth.
Heh, but .. the all green look? Reminds me of Fidel Castro. ;-)
Quote from: a2capt on September 16, 2010, 02:04:03 AM
Heh, but .. the all green look? Reminds me of Fidel Castro. ;-)
*recalling back to Hurricane Katrina*
I've heard stuffz (on this forum, I think) that HWSRN was confused as a [insert third-world country] military officer during said operation while sporting our BDUs. I wonder what the results would've been like if he had been wearing OD fatigues...
The uniform is one way of seeing us as part of the Air Force family. We need to be in the uniform of our parent service, it really does help in multiple ways. ROTC not JROTC... ROTC wears the uniform of their respective parent service with different accouterments to distinguish them. It helps The rest of the service to identify us as a part (yes we are a part of USAF family) of their service family. Without it, we would be looked at like... who are you again?
Not to mention if CAP wanted to get away from the USAF uniform USAF would want to get away from us. Without the USAF we would cease to exist. We are in reality funded by the Air Force, Squadrons get most of their individual funding themselves but as an organizational whole it's the USAF that gives us the funding to continue.
We have always, aside from the times of USAF changing them, been in the same uniform as the Air force. We went over to the new style of Dress uniform very shortly after USAF did, and that's the way it should be.
We are a part of the USAF family and we should present ourselves as such. Yes, I see the reasoning behind having the corporate alternatives, they allow us to have our very important and valuable members who are overweight. There is nothing wrong with those who don't meet height and weight standards wearing the corporate uniforms, we have very valuable members who wear them. Anybody who thinks they should not be allowed to be in Civil Air Patrol need not be here themselves.
We in Civil Air Patrol are a valuable asset, we perform missions that not many others are able nor want to perform such as; counter drug operations, search and rescue, and aerial recon. Were it not our association with the Air Force I would guarantee those thousand hours we flew in support of the Gulf Oil Disaster would not have been flown by us and USAF would have had to pull assets from their Active units that should be either deployed or readying themselves for deployment.
Were it not for being part of the USAF family we would not exist, and if we were not in USAF uniform the USAF wouldn't have us. I will continue to wear the USAF style uniforms until I no longer meet height and weight standards or am too old to be of use. If I do not meet standards, I will wear the alternative and do so proudly. There is nothing wrong with our uniforms. We only need to wait patiently until the USAF deems it's self ready for crossover to the current USAF uniform what ever it may be, multicam, ABU, whatever it decides. Respect our organization, and respect our parent service.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 16, 2010, 05:26:47 AM
Without it, we would be looked at like... who are you again?
The sad part is, we already carry this trait (for the most part), and further taking away one of the biggest parts of our identity will simply multiply that by a ton.
Return to the 'pickle suit'? Talk about a heritage uniform!
Works for me...
Eh, I'd have to lose about 20 pounds to fit my last set.
Heritage is an important thing to keep. To revert to a uniform that is no longer made is neither practical nor cost effective. I know, we don't need to be camouflaged but we do need to stay with our parent service.
I never said return too the pickle suit, I said switch EVERYONE to OD green BDU's which are readily available and curently being manufactured.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 16, 2010, 01:14:43 PM
Heritage is an important thing to keep. To revert to a uniform that is no longer made is neither practical nor cost effective. I know, we don't need to be camouflaged but we do need to stay with our parent service.
Blouse (http://www.fatiguesarmynavy.com/store/item/VV1401/Vintage_Vietnam_Era__O_D__Ripstop_Jungle_Jacket)
Trousers (http://www.fatiguesarmynavy.com/store/item/VV1002/Vintage_Vietnam_Era_Olive_Drab_Jungle_Fatigues)
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 16, 2010, 01:14:43 PM
Heritage is an important thing to keep. To revert to a uniform that is no longer made is neither practical nor cost effective. I know, we don't need to be camouflaged but we do need to stay with our parent service.
A good deal of people in the real Air Force don't need to be camouflaged either. Special ops, SP, etc, sure... your normal average everyday Airman working in the hanger? Probably not.
Don't even get me started about the Navy camo.
But I do suppose none of these people put on camo, and then a bright orange vest to be seen, either.
Folks, we've got plenty of other threads to discuss alternative uniform options.
Quote from: Marshalus on September 16, 2010, 05:46:10 PM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 16, 2010, 01:14:43 PM
Heritage is an important thing to keep. To revert to a uniform that is no longer made is neither practical nor cost effective. I know, we don't need to be camouflaged but we do need to stay with our parent service.
A good deal of people in the real Air Force don't need to be camouflaged either. Special ops, SP, etc, sure... your normal average everyday Airman working in the hanger? Probably not.
Don't even get me started about the Navy camo.
But I do suppose none of these people put on camo, and then a bright orange vest to be seen, either.
No, but they do put on a reflective belt... From what I hear there's quite the love affair going on between airmen and their reflective belts. >:D
Quote from: Marshalus on September 16, 2010, 05:46:10 PM
But I do suppose none of these people put on camo, and then a bright orange vest to be seen, either.
Have you been to a military base lately?
Reflective belts are everywhere.
EDIT: Sorry, spaceman beat me to the punch.
Quote from: Marshalus on September 16, 2010, 05:46:10 PMDon't even get me started about the Navy camo.
The purpose of the NWU is not that of hiding the wearer.
Quote from: HGjunkie on September 16, 2010, 01:55:49 PMBlouse (http://www.fatiguesarmynavy.com/store/item/VV1401/Vintage_Vietnam_Era__O_D__Ripstop_Jungle_Jacket)
Trousers (http://www.fatiguesarmynavy.com/store/item/VV1002/Vintage_Vietnam_Era_Olive_Drab_Jungle_Fatigues)
I noticed in the description that these items are "vintage washed"..
Maybe appropriate in an Americrombie Eagle & Finchpostalister catalog, but not so much on an Uniform item..
Quote from: tsrup on September 16, 2010, 10:46:19 PM
Maybe appropriate in an Americrombie Eagle & Finchpostalister catalog, but not so much on an Uniform item..
Those stores are crazy..... Note to all....don't buy knock off Finchpostalister shirts from tsrup.. :P
reflective belts everywere on my base....except for security forces, fire department, and emt's...you know, the ones that are never always in the road and Aircraft taxi ways.....
This from the Air Force Times......
At the Air Force Association's fall conference.....
Chief Master Sgt of the Air Force James Roy got a round of applause with a one-word answer: No.
The question: "Do you see any new uniforms in the future?"
After the clapping subsided, Roy added, "We have an airman battle uniform. ... It works very well for us. I sure would like to lighten that thing up a little bit, and we have steps in process and we [are] doing that."
As a side note......Not one BDU visible in the clothing store in the BX at Edwards AFB on a recent visist.
Quote from: Smokey on September 19, 2010, 09:06:08 PM
This from the Air Force Times......
At the Air Force Association's fall conference.....
Chief Master Sgt of the Air Force James Roy got a round of applause with a one-word answer: No.
The question: "Do you see any new uniforms in the future?"
The CMSAF is not a "battlefield airman" and thus cannot understand the distaste by airmen with boots on the ground for the ABU. Likewise, he has probably not conducted missions (training and real) where it is painfully obvious that the ABU color scheme stands out like a sore thumb in almost every enviornment. Last November my squadron was in Michigan doing some exercises that ranged from recon and surveillance to CQB. During our AARs the OPFOR continued to say
"your techniques were great, but no matter what you did we could always pick you out against the wooded background".
^ You would think that after almost 230 years the American Military would be smart enough to develop camouflage that works!
Honesty, as a taxpayer I am disapointed in my elected representatives not stopping all of this uniform madness. We can't get funding for disease research becasue it is all going into prototype uniforms and advisory boards etc.
Woodland pattern and "sand flavor" BDU's seemed to work for almost 25 years. The witch to me seems all about recruitment.
Honesty my wife wears ABU's they are just modified BDU's, nothing more. It would have cost less to modify the BDU's instead of inventing all these different uniforms.
[smg id=256]
An example of Air Force MultiCams. This is what is currently being issued to Army combat troops in Afghanistan and will soon (within the year) be issued to "Battlefield Airmen" in the Air Force.
Another issue with the ABU and Multicam is that we would have to change badges and patches. The ABU does not allow for sewing on patches, neither does the Multicam. Badges would have to be pin on, then the question is, do we use silver or subdued, that is in order to stay with USAF standards by using pin on badges. The rank would also have to change... well we could use pin on rank on the collar, but then that makes the neck tab useless. There is a velcro strap to close the neck like a turtle neck, it really helps in cold weather and to keep bugs out. That would become useless with pin on rank. If we went with subdued badges we would have to make name tapes and the rank subdued also, which would just be pointless.
All this said, I do think we should be in the same uniform as USAF. It would just be one heck of a process.
The uniform manual could always be changed to allow sewing on patches...
Quote from: HGjunkie on September 20, 2010, 09:39:58 PM
The uniform manual could always be changed to allow sewing on patches...
We use our own manual anyway. It would increase the differences between the AF and us which should make them happy.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 20, 2010, 09:01:43 PM
Another issue with the ABU and Multicam is that we would have to change badges and patches. The ABU does not allow for sewing on patches, neither does the Multicam. Badges would have to be pin on, then the question is, do we use silver or subdued, that is in order to stay with USAF standards by using pin on badges. The rank would also have to change... well we could use pin on rank on the collar, but then that makes the neck tab useless. There is a velcro strap to close the neck like a turtle neck, it really helps in cold weather and to keep bugs out. That would become useless with pin on rank. If we went with subdued badges we would have to make name tapes and the rank subdued also, which would just be pointless.
All this said, I do think we should be in the same uniform as USAF. It would just be one heck of a process.
You need to do a little more research. The uniform you are describing is the Army Combat Uniform (A
CU), not the Airman Battle Uniform (A
BU). The ABU is little more than a warmed over BDU. It simply adds a few pockets and a couple pencil slots.
And Velcro. Lots of Velcro.
Quote from: HGjunkie on September 21, 2010, 12:24:03 AM
And Velcro. Lots of Velcro.
You are also confusing the ABU with the ACU
Quote from: Hawk200 on September 20, 2010, 09:55:05 PM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 20, 2010, 09:01:43 PM
Another issue with the ABU and Multicam is that we would have to change badges and patches. The ABU does not allow for sewing on patches, neither does the Multicam. Badges would have to be pin on, then the question is, do we use silver or subdued, that is in order to stay with USAF standards by using pin on badges. The rank would also have to change... well we could use pin on rank on the collar, but then that makes the neck tab useless. There is a velcro strap to close the neck like a turtle neck, it really helps in cold weather and to keep bugs out. That would become useless with pin on rank. If we went with subdued badges we would have to make name tapes and the rank subdued also, which would just be pointless.
All this said, I do think we should be in the same uniform as USAF. It would just be one heck of a process.
You need to do a little more research. The uniform you are describing is the Army Combat Uniform (ACU), not the Airman Battle Uniform (ABU). The ABU is little more than a warmed over BDU. It simply adds a few pockets and a couple pencil slots.
I just took a look at the ABU, your right, it doesn't have it. That is too bad. It is a really useful addition to the other digi pattern uniforms. I still wonder what they would do with badge placement. Are badges allowed on the ABU in patch form or are they metal only like the ACU and MARPAT?
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 21, 2010, 01:36:31 AMAre badges allowed on the ABU in patch form or are they metal only like the ACU and MARPAT?
It's all sewn on patches, with the moss green as a background color.
(http://www.vanguardmil.com/images/medium/00000002106824_MED.jpg)
My favorite thing about the ABUs is how, after all these years, they STILL come in four different shades of green-gray.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 21, 2010, 01:36:31 AMI just took a look at the ABU, your right, it doesn't have it. That is too bad. It is a really useful addition to the other digi pattern uniforms. I still wonder what they would do with badge placement. Are badges allowed on the ABU in patch form or are they metal only like the ACU and MARPAT?
Velcro isn't all it's cracked up to be. It's easy to lose tapes, you stick to your buddy, and I've ended up wearing someone elses patch when I "stripped" them of it while squeezing past them.
I don't even bother wearing badges because they can be annoying to position or you lose the frogs. It's one thing to pin that stuff on dress uniforms, but something entirely to have to do it on a day to day uniform.
If I had my way with the ACU, I'd make sewn on insignia at least an option. You wouldn't have to worry about losing anything, or wearing extras. Wash it, pull it out of the dryer, put it on, good to go.
The only positive thing about the ACU that I can remember was that it felt like wearing PJs after they get washed enough. About half way through Iraq they were really soft... that is when we got to wash them every month or two.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 21, 2010, 04:15:09 AM
The only positive thing about the ACU that I can remember was that it felt like wearing PJs after they get washed enough. About half way through Iraq they were really soft... that is when we got to wash them every month or two.
You must have been able to do your own laundry. It took a while for all the stuff I took to KBR. They did get that sandy yellow shade fairly quick though.
I saw a lot of the "summerweight" ripstop ABUs in the desert. There were enough that I imagined that some units got them as issue. The heavyweight stuff didn't seem to be all that popular. I wouldn't want it unless it was winter.
I still suspect that if all the branches transition to MultiCam that we may see ABUs. The Air Force isn't going to throw them away. Of course, they may give them to the ROTC (both college and junior) first, and when those organizations have had their fill, we might get some. Or else, we'll end up getting them from those organizations as people move on.
Quote from: Hawk200 on September 21, 2010, 04:06:12 PM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on September 21, 2010, 04:15:09 AM
The only positive thing about the ACU that I can remember was that it felt like wearing PJs after they get washed enough. About half way through Iraq they were really soft... that is when we got to wash them every month or two.
You must have been able to do your own laundry. It took a while for all the stuff I took to KBR. They did get that sandy yellow shade fairly quick though.
I saw a lot of the "summerweight" ripstop ABUs in the desert. There were enough that I imagined that some units got them as issue. The heavyweight stuff didn't seem to be all that popular. I wouldn't want it unless it was winter.
I still suspect that if all the branches transition to MultiCam that we may see ABUs. The Air Force isn't going to throw them away. Of course, they may give them to the ROTC (both college and junior) first, and when those organizations have had their fill, we might get some. Or else, we'll end up getting them from those organizations as people move on.
Sadly, yes we did do our own laundry most of the time. We didn't get KBR so we did our laundry in buckets. They were stiff and nasty, if you had a large dirty spot on your uniform it would just get spread to the rest of your uniform so it all turned a lighterr shade of that dirty spot. That is until we just started showering with one uniform on then strip it off as it became clean then took a realish shower. About every two months we were able to send some of our stuff to a different FOB to get KBR to wash it. That was really nice because they came back really really soft.
Quote from: Smokey on September 19, 2010, 09:06:08 PM
This from the Air Force Times......
At the Air Force Association's fall conference.....
Chief Master Sgt of the Air Force James Roy got a round of applause with a one-word answer: No.
The question: "Do you see any new uniforms in the future?"
After the clapping subsided, Roy added, "We have an airman battle uniform. ... It works very well for us. I sure would like to lighten that thing up a little bit, and we have steps in process and we [are] doing that."
As a side note......Not one BDU visible in the clothing store in the BX at Edwards AFB on a recent visist.
I think I got the last BDU belt there. They had to go look in the back for it.
Quote from: MikeD on September 22, 2010, 03:05:49 AMI think I got the last BDU belt there. They had to go look in the back for it.
The blue webbbed or stretchy belt that's about an inch and a half? I haven't seen too many of those lately. The Air Force was allowing the black Army belt with BDU's for a while. These days, I've been seeing a lot more "rigger" belts worn.
We need to do something concerning the availability of some items. Our members either have to scrounge for less than best condition items, or pay the premium to Vangaurd. Not the best thing to do to volunteer members.
Quote from: Hawk200 on September 22, 2010, 02:38:20 PM
We need to do something concerning the availability of some items. Our members either have to scrounge for less than best condition items, or pay the premium to Vangaurd. Not the best thing to do to volunteer members.
Neither is necessary - AAFES has all the blues stuff, the rest of the known universe has the field uniforms, with better options.
The 1.5 inch belts from bdu.com, for example, are a much better choice for field uniforms then those cheesy belts most people wear for the same price (or sometimes free).
Quote from: Major Carrales on September 13, 2010, 06:41:32 AM
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on September 13, 2010, 12:26:39 AM
Quote from: HGjunkie on September 12, 2010, 09:41:21 PM
(http://wiki.cadetstuff.org/images/7/77/Nin43.jpg)
Heh, Nin. :)
As I understand it, this was not authorized (with Jungle slanted potckets) at the time that photo was taken and likely never was.
While I dunno when the photo was taken, jungle fatigues were authorized for a period in the early 90's after the AF went to the BDU and the authorized green fatigues became almost impossible to find. What few that were in the DRMO pipeline we heard were being picked up by the Federal prison system and others were going to A-Stan courtesy of an alphabet soup agency.
Quote from: HGjunkie on September 12, 2010, 04:48:12 PM
Quote from: DBlair on September 12, 2010, 04:26:58 PM
BDUs are already getting scarce, if we are going to wear them for another 5 years, where are we going to find them?
Propper, Ebay, Army Navy stores, and other places. I can get a new set of BDUs easily through Propper, Army Navy stores either order new ones or sell surplus.
Propper BDU Blouse (https://www.epropper.com/products/40/category/49/BDU_4-Pocket_Coat.htm)
Propper BDU Trousers (https://www.epropper.com/products/5/category/49/BDU_Trouser_-_Button_Fly.htm)
Barre Army Navy BDUs (http://www.vtarmynavy.com/Woodland_Camo_BDU.htm)
Edit- added links
But they are so freaking expensive. I mean $60 for a set of BDUs? unless I'm missing some well-hidden way to get free sets of BDUs (besides clandestinely raiding the squadron supply closet) there really needs to be a better way to get uniforms to cash-strapped cadets like myself who need extra BDUs for encampments. I don't care what my uniform's pocket-arrangement is and what the camouflage pattern looks like, I just want to have enough uniforms so i can go out and do my duty.
I really don't understand the "uniforms are too expensive" argument.
Boyscout pants run $39.99
Boyscout shirt runs $39.99
Neckerchief runs ~$10.00
Miscellaneous patches etc $25.00
It appears the same for girlscouts, etc.
Sports teams typically require $100.00+ for uniforms and accessories, plus registration fees.
No matter what we wear, you're going to spend $50, even if it's shorts and a t-shirt.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on October 24, 2010, 05:01:40 PM
I really don't understand the "uniforms are too expensive" argument.
Boyscout pants run $39.99
Boyscout shirt runs $39.99
Neckerchief runs ~$10.00
Miscellaneous patches etc $25.00
It appears the same for girlscouts, etc.
Sports teams typically require $100.00+ for uniforms and accessories, plus registration fees.
No matter what we wear, you're going to spend $50, even if it's shorts and a t-shirt.
and CAP is different from boyscouts and girl scouts because unlike BSA and GSA. CAP is a auxilary of the AF. IT would be nice if they could throw us a bone and provide a free set of winter weigh BDUs and a free set of Summer Weight BDUs to cadets like they do with blues. I don't have a problem with outfitting my own gear but I would at least like to have my uniform be one more thing i can check off my list of things to worry about.
Quote from: JWilson on October 24, 2010, 06:27:11 PM
And CAP is different from boyscouts and girl scouts because unlike BSA and GSA. CAP is a auxilary of the AF. IT would be nice if they could throw us a bone and provide a free set of winter weigh BDUs and a free set of Summer Weight BDUs to cadets like they do with blues. I don't have a problem with outfitting my own gear but I would at least like to have my uniform be one more thing i can check off my list of things to worry about.
So one free uniform isn't enough for you?
You figure the taxpayers owe you at least two?
The USAF is being cut. There are airmen and officers being involuntarily forced out of the service, bases closed, and equipment being mothballed and your thought is that they should find some more money to spend on you?
"Throw us a bone"?
Nice.
I'd like free uniforms, too. But not when the AF would have to take it out of hide. The money has to come from somewhere. And that is ultimately the taxpayers.
Quick CAP finance lesson for you.
CAP receives their money from Congress, in the form of a grant.
Because we receive appropriated money, the Air Force has been assigned as our oversight to ensure that we are spending the money on things that we are authorized to spend them on (tax payer's money comes with rules), and are good stewards of those assets that we purchase with the money.
CAP decides how it wants to spend that money that isn't already obligated to pay for certain things. Part of that money was designated as a fund to paid for the cadet blues uniform.
The Air Force isn't paying for cadets uniforms.
The Air Force can't give us more money to expand the program to include BDUs.
The pie is only so big and cutting one slice bigger means another one gets smaller. Once you start paying taxes, you might understand a bit more.
I get the feeling that someone thinks that the military has a big pot of money to buy whatever they want.
Old (really old) school thinking. May never have really been true, but still old school thinking.
The blues are the only uniform required for cadet programs. Which is why cadets are lucky enough to get them. BDU's are not, which is why you aren't issued any by national. Some squadrons have built up a surplus of them and are lucky enough to be able to issue their members BDU's, but remember, when it comes to free "you can't look a gift horse in the mouth".
CAP Regs say you can't require cadets to purchase uniforms and are issued one set of blues. So what happens when an encampment Ops Order lists cadet to have two sets of BDUs. What happens when the cadet shows up wearing his issued blues? Do you send him home? Or do you follow the regulation and allow him/her to attend? Many cadets can not afford $200 for two sets of BDUs (including boots).
Fundraising works wonders... I've been in extremely apathetic communities, and we still found a way to fundraise.
Quote from: BillB on October 24, 2010, 10:28:02 PM
CAP Regs say you can't require cadets to purchase uniforms and are issued one set of blues. So what happens when an encampment Ops Order lists cadet to have two sets of BDUs. What happens when the cadet shows up wearing his issued blues? Do you send him home? Or do you follow the regulation and allow him/her to attend? Many cadets can not afford $200 for two sets of BDUs (including boots).
Encampment is not a required activity.
These things can be worked out with the squadron through encampment scholarships, fundraising, begging another squadron for uniform items, etc...
tsrup...How do you get a Mitchell is you don't attend an encampment??????
Quote from: tsrup on October 24, 2010, 10:33:30 PM
Quote from: BillB on October 24, 2010, 10:28:02 PM
CAP Regs say you can't require cadets to purchase uniforms and are issued one set of blues. So what happens when an encampment Ops Order lists cadet to have two sets of BDUs. What happens when the cadet shows up wearing his issued blues? Do you send him home? Or do you follow the regulation and allow him/her to attend? Many cadets can not afford $200 for two sets of BDUs (including boots).
Encampment is not a required activity.
These things can be worked out with the squadron through encampment scholarships, fundraising, etc...
That's a highly debatable issue. If Joey Bagodonuts has promoted to C/CMsgt, then encampment IS required for him to satisfactorily progress in the cadet program.
Quote from: DakRadz on October 24, 2010, 10:32:06 PM
Fundraising works wonders... I've been in extremely apathetic communities, and we still found a way to fundraise.
How about getting a part-time job. Many have had to do that to fund thier activities outside of school, not just CAP. Thats what I did,
Quote from: BillB on October 24, 2010, 10:28:02 PM
CAP Regs say you can't require cadets to purchase uniforms and are issued one set of blues. So what happens when an encampment Ops Order lists cadet to have two sets of BDUs. What happens when the cadet shows up wearing his issued blues? Do you send him home? Or do you follow the regulation and allow him/her to attend? Many cadets can not afford $200 for two sets of BDUs (including boots).
What happens if the cadet shows up without a toothbrush, razor, or gym shorts?
What happens if the cadet tells you that she cannot afford to travel to and from encampment?
What happens if the cadet cannot afford the dues?
What happens if space monkeys arrive and steal the single set of blues?
I dunno what the right answer is for each of these questions.
But somehow experienced CP officers like yourself have been able to struggle through these and other problems for the last 60 years or so.
I can tell you that it was always my policy "that no cadet would be denied encampment for inability to pay the fees." I've raised money for troops. I talked to Lions and the TRW Employees Club when I needed to. I let cadets borrow uniforms and looked the other way when the last name on the BDU tapes didn't match the one on the cadet's ID card.
But ultimately, CAP Inc does not now have, nor is it ever likely to have the resources to have every cadet participate in the program completely free of cost. And while I am not an Scout executive, I don't think they allow every youth to participate for free, either. I'm sure they have scholarship programs and a lot of charitable groups that sponsor individual troops.
But it is unrealistic to think that we can magically provide a couple hundred thousand dollars worth of uniforms, encampments, books, materials, etc. to any cadet that asks.
All we can do is try to keep our costs as reasonable as possible and help out in exceptional cases when we can.
Quote from: BillB on October 24, 2010, 10:34:23 PM
tsrup...How do you get a Mitchell is you don't attend an encampment??????
who said mitchell is required?
a commander "may" remove a cadet for not satisfactorally progressing through the program, but it isn't required that they progress at all.
whats the difference between a cadet who cant afford the BDU's for encampment from a cadet who can't afford encampment costs, or travel costs to the squadron or clean white undershirts for their blues, etc.
It's all a rediculous "what if" argument that has been solved many many times over by resourceful Squadron commandrs, but love to be flaunted as a "problem" on captalk.
Quote from: FARRIER on October 24, 2010, 10:40:44 PM
Quote from: DakRadz on October 24, 2010, 10:32:06 PM
Fundraising works wonders... I've been in extremely apathetic communities, and we still found a way to fundraise.
How about getting a part-time job. Many have had to do that to fund thier activities outside of school, not just CAP. Thats what I did,
Okay, but I wouldn't send my brother to work on a farm or at a gas station- last time I checked, they rarely hire 12 year old workers anyway...
I never said that CAP should provide, but for those who still count Tooth Fairy money and only get money holidays and birthdays- well, they can be instrumental in fundraisers and still earn uniforms if the squadron so chooses to buy them.
Here's my 2 cents:
Fundraising
works. As someone who's spent years in scouting, I can definetely say fundraising can help water down the costs for a new cadet/scout. In every troop i've been in, there's been this system called "scout accounts." What happens is, whenever a troop does a fundraiser, a certain portion of the funds go to the troop, and the rest of it is divvied up between the scouts who participated. The funds in your scout account can be used to buy uniforms, books, etc. That way, less money is being spent by the scouts/scout's parents.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on October 24, 2010, 05:01:40 PM
Boyscout pants run $39.99
Boyscout shirt runs $39.99
Neckerchief runs ~$10.00
Miscellaneous patches etc $25.00
It's a moot point if your troop does regular fundraisers.
"At the age of seven, he took out a loan of $2.50 from the local bank to buy a lawn mower. His thriving lawn mowing business soon allowed him to pay back his loan."
http://www.horatioalger.org/members_info.cfm?memberid=SMI02 (http://www.horatioalger.org/members_info.cfm?memberid=SMI02)
Quote from: DakRadz on October 24, 2010, 11:03:25 PM
Quote from: FARRIER on October 24, 2010, 10:40:44 PM
Quote from: DakRadz on October 24, 2010, 10:32:06 PM
Fundraising works wonders... I've been in extremely apathetic communities, and we still found a way to fundraise.
How about getting a part-time job. Many have had to do that to fund thier activities outside of school, not just CAP. Thats what I did,
Okay, but I wouldn't send my brother to work on a farm or at a gas station- last time I checked, they rarely hire 12 year old workers anyway...
I never said that CAP should provide, but for those who still count Tooth Fairy money and only get money holidays and birthdays- well, they can be instrumental in fundraisers and still earn uniforms if the squadron so chooses to buy them.
Yes, and my teacher bought a house as a 17 year old, back in the day.
Would it work now? If I tried to take out a loan from the bank tomorrow as a 17 year old, I don't know that I could do it. Different day and age, however unfortunate
Great biography, though- inspiring!
If the cadet has gotten that far, and thats all thats holding 'em up .. somehow I think a second BDU set would been acquired by then or isn't going to be the show stopper.
There are ways.
Quote from: HGjunkie on October 24, 2010, 11:18:39 PM
Here's my 2 cents:
Fundraising works. As someone who's spent years in scouting, I can definetely say fundraising can help water down the costs for a new cadet/scout. In every troop i've been in, there's been this system called "scout accounts." What happens is, whenever a troop does a fundraiser, a certain portion of the funds go to the troop, and the rest of it is divvied up between the scouts who participated. The funds in your scout account can be used to buy uniforms, books, etc. That way, less money is being spent by the scouts/scout's parents.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on October 24, 2010, 05:01:40 PM
Boyscout pants run $39.99
Boyscout shirt runs $39.99
Neckerchief runs ~$10.00
Miscellaneous patches etc $25.00
It's a moot point if your troop does regular fundraisers.
My point was that many people expect that our non-profit corporation should carry the burden of supplying everything, or that what we've chosen is somehow more expensive/unaffordable to our members. When the reality is that CAP has significantly lower costs for things, or comparable to other organizations. Track down the price of a week long YMCA summer camp and see if encampment is a good deal. How about the cost of COS or other NCSAs? Even your membership dues each year return a greater benefit than you are investing (figure $35 for initial joining). You get color, printed books, a binder, and a uniform.
If you can fund raise and negate the costs of the uniforms, more power to you.
CAP spends its money on things to benefit its members educations, which I think is a far better investment than something that wears out or gets outgrown.
See the above.
Have you seen the cost of an Army Cadet Corps camp? Somewhere in the range of $2000. Don't like CAP, you could try them.... And guess what? They say to get people to sponsor you. Or fundraise. But it is YOUR responsibility.
A few years ago I did some research on retention of cadets from inner-city Squadrons or Squadrons with a fairly large cadet population from low income families. Unofficial because Wing has never bothered to do the research. I found that over 60% of the cadets that dropped out in the first year did so becuase they and their families could not afford the costs of CAP uniforms or activities. In reality, holding car washes or other fund raising activities doesn't put a dent in the costs to a cadet when it's divided among a medium size squadron. This research was only done in Florida, so circumstances may be different in other parts of the country.
Another 20% dropped out due to school work or having to work part time. Again a money problem for cadets in the low income environment. While the finance problems only apply to a small percentage of cadets, it was higher than originally expected, and not representative of the Wing as a whole. But losing over an statistically estimated 300 cadets a year is a fairly large percentage overall.
In part the problem could be lessened with Wing control of surplus uniforms from various sources. For example, one Squadron got a large amount of boots and BDUs from the Air National Guard. And they retained the uniforms. A University AFROTC Detachment and the high schoo, AFJROTC provided one Squadron over 100 sets of blues including shows. They went into storage. Thus many Squadrons have a large supply of uniforms, while a Squadron in the same city may have none. And uniform donations to Squadrons are not recorded by Wing to allow transfer to Squadrons with uniform needs. Squadrons don't even do any paperwork that they accepted surplus uniforms. Sure you can say uniforms are expendable items, thus no paperwork is needed, but on the other hand, uniforms in storage because no one at higher headquarters know they exist is a waste or resources.
I have to agree, many of the cadets I sometimes encounter leave because they cannot afford to be in CAP. If we did not, as a unit leadership, go out of our way to find BDUs items we would find ourselves with very little in that regard.
Simply put, yes, CAP is not a "right"as much as it is a "privilege," but if we intend to make the claim that we "help youth" we cannot create a situation where only the wealthy and well off cadets benefit and the poor simply have to "buck up and make it work somehow or leave."
We should be creating an organization with reasonable expenses, from what we expect from uniforms items to the costs of encampments.
I am reminded, of some posts above, of a scene from the film 12 Angry Men where Ed Begley's character and E.G. Marshall's character are talking about how the youth, raised in a "poor home and filthy neighborhood," was somehow destined to become a criminal. Most especially the part where Jack Klugman's character calls them on it claiming he "played in neighborhood full of garbage, maybe you can still smell it on me!"
Again, if our cadet program is going to make the claims that we are a boon to youth, then we need to make success more about attainable accomplishment instead of how much money to spend on these uniform items and mandatory promotion to Mitchell items, namely encampments.
And yes, I know economics, but I think a reasonable product can be made to lower cadet encampment tuition levels and reduce the burden to provide their own uniform items.
Again. Scouting isn't any cheaper. Any programs, methods, etc., to get stuff into the hands of those who can't otherwise get it surely exist for all of it.
Quote from: Major Carrales on October 25, 2010, 03:22:51 AM
Simply put, yes, CAP is not a "right"as much as it is a "privilege," but if we intend to make the claim that we "help youth" we cannot create a situation where only the wealthy and well off cadets benefit and the poor simply have to "buck up and make it work somehow or leave."
We should be creating an organization with reasonable expenses, from what we expect from uniforms items to the costs of encampments.
Please define the "we".
The leaders work for free, the flying is free, the basic uniform is free, and the doors opened and opportunities offered far exceed any similar program for those so inclined. Few units charge dues, and are per-year costs are the same or similar to other cadet-type programs.
Quote from: Eclipse on October 25, 2010, 04:02:40 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on October 25, 2010, 03:22:51 AM
Simply put, yes, CAP is not a "right"as much as it is a "privilege," but if we intend to make the claim that we "help youth" we cannot create a situation where only the wealthy and well off cadets benefit and the poor simply have to "buck up and make it work somehow or leave."
We should be creating an organization with reasonable expenses, from what we expect from uniforms items to the costs of encampments.
Please define the "we".
The leaders work for free, the flying is free, the basic uniform is free, and the doors opened and opportunities offered far exceed any similar program for those so inclined. Few units charge dues, and are per-year costs are the same or similar to other cadet-type programs.
We is all of us.
The basic uniform is not sufficient to provide a cadet with the ability to attend all functions. Encampment requires, usually, two sets of both field and dress uniforms. See how far you can get in Emergency Services activities in Minimum Basic Service Dress. A CAP where all cadets do is "march in circles and squares" ad infinitum and nothing else is doomed to failure.
Having a new set of BDUs as an expense (which, with boots and insignia, will be greatly more than the membership dues) leads me to wonder why 1) field uniforms are not offered as part of the free uniform programs and 2) why the CAP does not adopt the field uniform of USAF as it exists now to facilitate the need for such uniforms.
My main gripe is toward those that seem to support the idea that cadets that are poor are dismissed as not being able to "make the sacrifice" because they cannot afford the items and fees for the activities mentioned above.
Some of these kids are pretty sharp and will be able to figure out ways, to work for the money, for these items. Joe, you don't give them enough credit.
Quote from: Major Carrales on October 25, 2010, 05:03:07 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 25, 2010, 04:02:40 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on October 25, 2010, 03:22:51 AM
Simply put, yes, CAP is not a "right"as much as it is a "privilege," but if we intend to make the claim that we "help youth" we cannot create a situation where only the wealthy and well off cadets benefit and the poor simply have to "buck up and make it work somehow or leave."
We should be creating an organization with reasonable expenses, from what we expect from uniforms items to the costs of encampments.
Please define the "we".
The leaders work for free, the flying is free, the basic uniform is free, and the doors opened and opportunities offered far exceed any similar program for those so inclined. Few units charge dues, and are per-year costs are the same or similar to other cadet-type programs.
We is all of us.
The basic uniform is not sufficient to provide a cadet with the ability to attend all functions. Encampment requires, usually, two sets of both field and dress uniforms. See how far you can get in Emergency Services activities in Minimum Basic Service Dress. A CAP where all cadets do is "march in circles and squares" ad infinitum and nothing else is doomed to failure.
Having a new set of BDUs as an expense (which, with boots and insignia, will be greatly more than the membership dues) leads me to wonder why 1) field uniforms are not offered as part of the free uniform programs and 2) why the CAP does not adopt the field uniform of USAF as it exists now to facilitate the need for such uniforms.
My main gripe is toward those that seem to support the idea that cadets that are poor are dismissed as not being able to "make the sacrifice" because they cannot afford the items and fees for the activities mentioned above.
Quote from: Major Carrales on October 25, 2010, 05:03:07 AM
My main gripe is toward those that seem to support the idea that cadets that are poor are dismissed as not being able to "make the sacrifice" because they cannot afford the items and fees for the activities mentioned above.
Thank you! Everyone else fails to understand that concept. In my unit, I have three types of Cadets....
1) From the Private Schools
2) From the Public Schools
3) From the "Almost Schools"
Each type lives according to what they are capable of accessing. The Loewr income kid may only have the Cash for Dues and the insignia for the free blues. Ok...... we stand outside WalMart for a day and get enough $$ to buy the Cadet a set of BDU's or whatever they need.
Heck, I have a few Cadets that attend Private Schools, whose Parents only make enough to pay FOR Private School. They live on Ramen Noodles and Sloppy-Joes.
Quote from: tsrup on October 24, 2010, 10:49:02 PM
a commander "may" remove a cadet for not satisfactorally progressing through the program, but it isn't required that they progress at all.
CAPR 52-16, page 15. You may already know this but:
c. Failure to Progress. Cadets who fail to progress in the Cadet Program by completing at least two achievements per year may be terminated from the program (see CAPR 35-3, Membership Termination).
Proactive squadrons should already be doing this as well to hopefully minimize the financial impact, and create parent groups to help fundraise for activities and uniforms:
(2) Partnership with Parents. Parents (or guardians) should be invited to the first meeting. The squadron commander (or deputy commander for cadets) should personally meet with the parents to discuss the goals and benefits of the Cadet Program, as well as the financial costs of membership, meeting schedules, contact information and cadet protection policies. See the Parents' Guide to Civil Air Patrol at www.cap.gov/parents for more information.
No doubt, cadet program management is hard, probably the hardest job in the organization.
Cheers,
Quote from: LTC Don on October 25, 2010, 02:05:41 PM
Quote from: tsrup on October 24, 2010, 10:49:02 PM
a commander "may" remove a cadet for not satisfactorally progressing through the program, but it isn't required that they progress at all.
CAPR 52-16, page 15. You may already know this but:
c. Failure to Progress. Cadets who fail to progress in the Cadet Program by completing at least two achievements per year may be terminated from the program (see CAPR 35-3, Membership Termination).
emphasis mine...
again.
No cadet of mine would ever be kicked out of the program just because they didn't have BDU's or couldn't afford encampment.
If the cadet wanted it enough, we (as a squadron) would make it happen.
Quote from: Patterson on October 25, 2010, 12:36:43 PMThank you! Everyone else fails to understand that concept.
Not quite. As I noted, "there are ways.." in our unit, too, though money is usually a private factor with cadets, we make it clear if anyone has issues, with anything including finance.. and it's usually announced by the chaplain. Don't be embarrassed, etc.
Again, scouting is just as expensive when you look at it, perhaps even more so. CAP does provide a lot more return on that dues investment than many other similar organizations.
Quote from: Ned on October 24, 2010, 06:48:33 PM
Quote from: JWilson on October 24, 2010, 06:27:11 PM
And CAP is different from boyscouts and girl scouts because unlike BSA and GSA. CAP is a auxilary of the AF. IT would be nice if they could throw us a bone and provide a free set of winter weigh BDUs and a free set of Summer Weight BDUs to cadets like they do with blues. I don't have a problem with outfitting my own gear but I would at least like to have my uniform be one more thing i can check off my list of things to worry about.
So one free uniform isn't enough for you?
You figure the taxpayers owe you at least two?
The USAF is being cut. There are airmen and officers being involuntarily forced out of the service, bases closed, and equipment being mothballed and your thought is that they should find some more money to spend on you?
"Throw us a bone"?
Nice.
I'd like free uniforms, too. But not when the AF would have to take it out of hide. The money has to come from somewhere. And that is ultimately the taxpayers.
You're saying the organization that does the majority of the inland SAR in this country doesn't deserve proper uniforms?
Quote from: JWilson on October 25, 2010, 07:41:39 PM
Quote from: Ned on October 24, 2010, 06:48:33 PM
Quote from: JWilson on October 24, 2010, 06:27:11 PM
And CAP is different from boyscouts and girl scouts because unlike BSA and GSA. CAP is a auxilary of the AF. IT would be nice if they could throw us a bone and provide a free set of winter weigh BDUs and a free set of Summer Weight BDUs to cadets like they do with blues. I don't have a problem with outfitting my own gear but I would at least like to have my uniform be one more thing i can check off my list of things to worry about.
So one free uniform isn't enough for you?
You figure the taxpayers owe you at least two?
The USAF is being cut. There are airmen and officers being involuntarily forced out of the service, bases closed, and equipment being mothballed and your thought is that they should find some more money to spend on you?
"Throw us a bone"?
Nice.
I'd like free uniforms, too. But not when the AF would have to take it out of hide. The money has to come from somewhere. And that is ultimately the taxpayers.
You're saying the organization that does the majority of the inland SAR in this country doesn't deserve proper uniforms?
What he's saying is that these uniforms cost money. One additional free uniform per cadet equals x number of flight hours in Afghanistan providing air support to ground forces. It equals y number of support services for the spouses and children who are at home while a loved one is in harms way.
We would all love to get more free uniforms, but right now it simply isn't possible. In a few years, maybe; but when times are tough, luxuries like multiple free cadet uniforms get cut.
Quote from: JWilson on October 25, 2010, 07:41:39 PMYou're saying the organization that does the majority of the inland SAR in this country doesn't deserve proper uniforms?
The portion of the program we are discussing is the cadets, and they are not a significant factor in the ES aspect of CAP. Involved, yes. The key operators? No, especially if you want to have an ROI discussion.
Quote from: JWilson on October 25, 2010, 07:41:39 PM
You're saying the organization that does the majority of the inland SAR in this country doesn't deserve proper uniforms?
If that logic actually holds, then there should be free uniforms for SM as with exception of a few cadets most ES are performed by SMs. The free uniform is part of the CADET program, not part of Emergency Services missions. Most members volunteer not only their time and knowledge, but also monetarily to equip him/herself. As volunteers, the country does NOT owe us anything. Period.
I realize that I am throwing gas on to a fire but oh well......
CAP as a whole should scrap the military uniform altogether. We are a civilian organization with a military parent.
We can do better if we adopted SAR specific or wilderness (i.e. field tough) clothing.
Heavy duty pants, heavy duty blaze orange or green shirts. Gear that is obtainable for cheaper cost than Army Surplus garbage. Haven't had time to work out the numbers, but somthing is better than what is now.
I am ready for your flames.....
Quote from: CadetProgramGuy on October 25, 2010, 08:15:29 PMWe can do better if we adopted SAR specific or wilderness (i.e. field tough) clothing.
That's a fail, argument wise. Military field clothing is fairly rugged.
Quote from: CadetProgramGuy on October 25, 2010, 08:15:29 PM
Heavy duty pants, heavy duty blaze orange or green shirts. Gear that is obtainable for cheaper cost than Army Surplus garbage. Haven't had time to work out the numbers, but somthing is better than what is now.
Time for you to work out the numbers. I'd think the SAR gear would be more expensive. Best case, equivalent in cost.
Second, SAR isn't our only mission. Dressing everyone like it is would be another nightmare.
^ I don't disagree, especially for ES, however I think we need to be in >a< uniform, so it won't really fix the cost issue, if anything it might make it worse.
We should not be doing missions in whatever is at the top of our civilian hamper. We have enough issues with attitude and professionalism as it is, start letting people show up in their MMA shirts and flip flops and we're done.
Commercial "field " gear/unting equipment could be just as expensive as BDUs. A significant factor to consider however is that cadets like wearing military uniforms. So you can consider it a recruiting tool. Whether they get a chance to work in the field is something else. That is a decision that's up to their local squadron and wing. Every organization seems to have a different idea about cadets and ES involvement and training that's offered.
Quote from: JWilson on October 25, 2010, 07:41:39 PM
You're saying the organization that does the majority of the inland SAR in this country doesn't deserve proper uniforms?
Ever hear the acronym "TANSTAAFL"? There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.
Who is going to pay for all these free uniforms you want people to have? The money has to come from somewhere. Neither it nor the uniforms grow on trees.
Quote from: jeders on October 25, 2010, 07:47:27 PMOne additional free uniform per cadet equals x number of flight hours in Afghanistan providing air support to ground forces. It equals y number of support services for the spouses and children who are at home while a loved one is in harms way.
No it doesn't. It's not even the same pot of money.
Giving a cadet a uniform doesn't stop the Air Force from buying an F-22.
Support services to spouses are covered by Non-appropriated funds raised by AAFES/fundraisers by the spouses groups, etc.
CAPs grant is only overseen by the Air Force, if CAP gets a larger grant, it doesn't mean that the Air Force budget takes a hit somewhere.
Quote from: FARRIER on October 25, 2010, 05:15:54 AM
Some of these kids are pretty sharp and will be able to figure out ways, to work for the money, for these items. Joe, you don't give them enough credit.
No, its just that I would prefer that said resources go to other more lofty things than merely some uniform item, which is a basic, or be stopped at a given level because their parents used their encampment money to...I don't know...pay the rent of buy food.
We are here to provide opportunity...its strange that we would only offer a "doorway" with no "door knob."
All I am asking is that we take that into consideration when we do things. Not everyone is from the Rich Side of town.
Quote from: Major Carrales on October 26, 2010, 03:12:21 AM
Quote from: FARRIER on October 25, 2010, 05:15:54 AM
Some of these kids are pretty sharp and will be able to figure out ways, to work for the money, for these items. Joe, you don't give them enough credit.
No, its just that I would prefer that said resources go to other more lofty things than merely some uniform item, which is a basic, or be stopped at a given level because their parents used their encampment money to...I don't know...pay the rent of buy food.
We are here to provide opportunity...its strange that we would only offer a "doorway" with no "door knob."
All I am asking is that we take that into consideration when we do things. Not everyone is from the Rich Side of town.
Major, with all due respect, CAP isn't the Boys and Girls Club. Virtually every volunteering opportunity requires some investment. Heck, I had to buy my own gear for my paid private ambulance company. CAP has never said "We're here to take disadvantaged youth and use Air Force funds to turn their lives around."
Quote from: jimmydeanno on October 26, 2010, 03:03:09 AM
Quote from: jeders on October 25, 2010, 07:47:27 PMOne additional free uniform per cadet equals x number of flight hours in Afghanistan providing air support to ground forces. It equals y number of support services for the spouses and children who are at home while a loved one is in harms way.
No it doesn't. It's not even the same pot of money.
Actually it is the same pot, it comes from the U.S. federal budget. Despite what Congress and the Fed would have us believe, you cannot just print more money, it comes from somewhere. While those may not have been the best specific examples, the point remains valid. More money for x means less money for y, regardless of what x and y are.
Quote from: jeders on October 26, 2010, 03:07:27 PM
Actually it is the same pot, it comes from the U.S. federal budget. Despite what Congress and the Fed would have us believe, you cannot just print more money, it comes from somewhere. While those may not have been the best specific examples, the point remains valid. More money for x means less money for y, regardless of what x and y are.
I understand that. However, I think it is disingenuous to imply that the Air Force is somehow limiting our budget so that they can spend it flying missions. The Air Force doesn't get more money in their budget because they short-changed us throughout the year and now have excess appropriated funds.
The Air Force simply ensures that we are spending the appropriated monies that we are given on things that they are allowed to be spent on. So we are alloted "X" amount for aircraft procurement and maintenance, "X" amount for something else, "Y" amount for program support, etc.
The money that's there to support programs, CAP budgets on its own (once they get the approval that appropriated funds can be spent on that type of thing). If CAP *really* wanted to, they could reallocate their budget to include providing both Blues and BDUs, including shoes, if they so desired.
Remember, not more than a few years ago, the FCUP included shoes. The decision was made that they could service about 1/3 more cadets with free uniforms by excluding shoes. The "Air Force" didn't remove the shoes from the program, we did.
So, to get cadets free BDUs there would be a few options.
1) Change the FCUP to BDUs instead of blues. In this situation though, we wouldn't be able to partner with the folks at Lackland, since the Air Force doesn't stock BDUs anymore. This would require us to either create an inventory, or use a third party vendor (like Vanguard) to fill those orders, most likely increasing costs even more.
2) Cut other CAP programs to pay for BDUs. If we removed all funding for NCSAs, etc we could probably afford to offer BDUs. The same issue above would occur about the supply issue. So, we could practically eliminate our educational program support to give some clothes, but what would our cadets wear those shiny uniforms to?
3) Offer both. We *could* offer both if we had a larger revenue stream on the non-appropriated side. If we had an additional 500K per year we could issue ~4,000 sets of BDUs (~6,000 if you remove the boots ;) ) But then, would that really be the most efficient use of the additional money?
I didn't mean that the air force is limiting our budget to fly more missions, but rather that everyone's budget is limited right now and we shouldn't be asking for more, we should be grateful that we still have what we have. And I do remember when the FCUP had shoes included, I also remember that about half-way through the year, almost every year, they ran out of money because of the shoes.
Quote from: JWilson on October 25, 2010, 07:41:39 PM
Quote from: Ned on October 24, 2010, 06:48:33 PM
Quote from: JWilson on October 24, 2010, 06:27:11 PM
And CAP is different from boyscouts and girl scouts because unlike BSA and GSA. CAP is a auxilary of the AF. IT would be nice if they could throw us a bone and provide a free set of winter weigh BDUs and a free set of Summer Weight BDUs to cadets like they do with blues. I don't have a problem with outfitting my own gear but I would at least like to have my uniform be one more thing i can check off my list of things to worry about.
So one free uniform isn't enough for you?
You figure the taxpayers owe you at least two?
The USAF is being cut. There are airmen and officers being involuntarily forced out of the service, bases closed, and equipment being mothballed and your thought is that they should find some more money to spend on you?
"Throw us a bone"?
Nice.
I'd like free uniforms, too. But not when the AF would have to take it out of hide. The money has to come from somewhere. And that is ultimately the taxpayers.
You're saying the organization that does the majority of the inland SAR in this country doesn't deserve proper uniforms?
The Cadet Program does not do the majority of the inladn SAR in the country.......sorry that is just the way it is.....and Senior Members don't get anything free from the USAF.
While I would agree that it would be nice if the FCUP provided a set BDUs and a set of blues.....I don't think we are in any position to demand them.
What needs to get recified as far as costs to the cadets is that according to regulations we can't require cadets to wear any uniform we don't provide.....and yet we still require BDUs for encampment and other manditory activities.
I would like to see that CP guys at nation look into this dicrepancy in the regulations and make amendments to them that best fit our program's aims and goals.
Quote from: lordmonar on October 26, 2010, 04:24:53 PM
I would like to see that CP guys at nation look into this discrepancy in the regulations and make amendments to them that best fit our program's aims and goals.
Although I don't see it as a discrepancy, what would you recommend to address the issue?
I doubt we could reconfigure the encampment experience to an "all blues all the time" or a "jeans and t-shirt" mode and still have it be recognizeable as a leadership training environment.
That leaves only two other choices: simply change the reg and permit requiring cadets to purchase BDUs uniforms or finding a couple of hundred thousand dollars a year to provide free BDUs.
What am I missing? Remembering that the cadet program survived and thrived for most of our history before we gave out free blues uniforms, what is the problem we are solving?
I have been involved with encampments for 10 years, 8 as a CC. That is more than 1000 cadets from at least 5 states.
Never once has anyone indicated they could not come because they could not afford BDUs. We have way more issues with cadets
graduating in the unofficial "alternate uniform" of white dress shirt and black pants because of a delay in the FCU.
In fact, the issue of "we can't require" comes up here all the time, and I don't think I have ever had to address it in the real world.
Quote from: Ned on October 26, 2010, 06:52:00 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 26, 2010, 04:24:53 PM
I would like to see that CP guys at nation look into this discrepancy in the regulations and make amendments to them that best fit our program's aims and goals.
Although I don't see it as a discrepancy, what would you recommend to address the issue?
I doubt we could reconfigure the encampment experience to an "all blues all the time" or a "jeans and t-shirt" mode and still have it be recognizeable as a leadership training environment.
That leaves only two other choices: simply change the reg and permit requiring cadets to purchase BDUs uniforms or finding a couple of hundred thousand dollars a year to provide free BDUs.
What am I missing? Remembering that the cadet program survived and thrived for most of our history before we gave out free blues uniforms, what is the problem we are solving?
I would just remove the prohibition in 39-1. It is not a "problem" so much as just one of those things that the member's who are staffing a regulation change should be looking into.
It may never happen...but if some cadet shows up to encampment with just his blues and stand on the regulations? Is it possible to fail him for his encampment requirements?
One could argue that because 39-1 says we can't require a cadet to wear a unifrom that is not provided.....that they could not wear low quarters or their insignia because they were not provided.
I know I am stretchering things a bit.....but we have all seen the regs hounds jump and down over the smallest misplaced comma.
Quote from: lordmonar on October 27, 2010, 07:30:32 AM
Quote from: Ned on October 26, 2010, 06:52:00 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on October 26, 2010, 04:24:53 PM
I would like to see that CP guys at nation look into this discrepancy in the regulations and make amendments to them that best fit our program's aims and goals.
Although I don't see it as a discrepancy, what would you recommend to address the issue?
I doubt we could reconfigure the encampment experience to an "all blues all the time" or a "jeans and t-shirt" mode and still have it be recognizeable as a leadership training environment.
That leaves only two other choices: simply change the reg and permit requiring cadets to purchase BDUs uniforms or finding a couple of hundred thousand dollars a year to provide free BDUs.
What am I missing? Remembering that the cadet program survived and thrived for most of our history before we gave out free blues uniforms, what is the problem we are solving?
I would just remove the prohibition in 39-1. It is not a "problem" so much as just one of those things that the member's who are staffing a regulation change should be looking into.
It may never happen...but if some cadet shows up to encampment with just his blues and stand on the regulations? Is it possible to fail him for his encampment requirements?
One could argue that because 39-1 says we can't require a cadet to wear a unifrom that is not provided.....that they could not wear low quarters or their insignia because they were not provided.
I know I am stretchering things a bit.....but we have all seen the regs hounds jump and down over the smallest misplaced comma.
You can then argue that senior members don't have to wear any uniform period because they are not provided.
Activities can dictate the uniforms that are required for the activity (so long as they are in accordance with 39-1).
Has anyone here ever experienced a problem with cadets not having the prescribed uniforms for encampment? And if you did what did you do in that situation?
No sarcasm implied, this is a serious question, have you had the problem, and what did you do (if anything) to solve it?
No....because 39-1 only specifies about cadet uniforms.
Quote from: 39-1 Para 1-5Cadets are required to have the minimum basic uniform. A commander
may require cadets to wear other optional uniform items only if the purchase is voluntary or if the
uniform is supplied without expense to the cadet.
So.....looking at this from a regs hounds point of view.
Shoes not provided....not required. Name plate not provided....not required. BDUs not provided...not required.
BDUs not provided at encampment.....you can't prevent a Blues only cadet from participating.
I know that this is a stretch....and as far as I know this has never come up before. However....from a leadership point of view....consistency in our regulations lends legitimacy to them.
As we all know 90% of our heart burns with uniforms (and other regs) comes from the gray area.
Quote from: lordmonar on October 27, 2010, 10:21:29 AM
No....because 39-1 only specifies about cadet uniforms.
[quote 39-1 Para 1-5]Cadets are required to have the minimum basic uniform. A commander
may require cadets to wear other optional uniform items only if the purchase is voluntary or if the
uniform is supplied without expense to the cadet.
So.....looking at this from a regs hounds point of view.
Shoes not provided....not required. Name plate not provided....not required. BDUs not provided...not required.
BDUs not provided at encampment.....you can't prevent a Blues only cadet from participating.
I know that this is a stretch....and as far as I know this has never come up before. However....from a leadership point of view....consistency in our regulations lends legitimacy to them.
As we all know 90% of our heart burns with uniforms (and other regs) comes from the gray area.
[/quote]
Pat, you're doin' a bungee jump over the Grand Canyon with that stretch!
What's your reference for only specifying about cadet uniforms?
From para 1-5, a part you didn't quote:
QuoteMembers will equip themselves with the basic uniform. The minimum basic uniforms for male and female cadets and senior members, which will satisfy most occasions, are listed below.
Yes, the minimum basic uniform is Service Blues.
Per para 1-5.a.:
Quotea. Minimum Basic Service Uniform. Male: Short-sleeve, light blue shirt; dark blue trousers; blue
belt/silver buckle, blue flight cap; black shoes, and socks. Insignia: CAP nameplate, shoulder patch,
collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight cap emblem.
The wording of the reg with regards to required uniforms hasn't changed much over the years. Just because the cadets currently get a deal on a set of blues doesn't mean the all the rest of the stuff that isn't issued is no longer required.
It appears to me that at this point, you are merely stirring things up just to get a rise out of us.
Quote from: SarDragon on October 27, 2010, 10:55:57 AM
It appears to me that at this point, you are merely stirring things up just to get a rise out of us.
Do people really do that on CAPTalk???
Quote from: SarDragon on October 27, 2010, 10:55:57 AMIt appears to me that at this point, you are merely stirring things up just to get a rise out of us.
No...not really. I am just taking a point (the regs are mess) and using a absurde position to show how that could be argued.
A more logical point would be for some squadron commander to say "everyone wears BDUs tommorrow" and a cadet refusing on the basis that the regs don't support the commander.
This is exactly what happens at encampment. The clothing list requires BDUs....but the regulations say that the commander can't do that.
My point to Ned was that we (CAP) should activitly seek out these intresting contradictions in the regulations and eliminate or clarify them as need.
This is just one of my pet peeves.
Some good meaing staff officer wrote those two sentances to prevent some commander forching his people to go out and buy service caps, service coats and other costly items.....with out really looking at the full implications of the regulation.
A noble cause Pat, but sadly one that no one will ever succeed in. One set of corrections inevitably leads to another set of problems.
Quote from: lordmonar on October 27, 2010, 07:30:32 AM
It may never happen...but if some cadet shows up to encampment with just his blues and stand on the regulations? Is it possible to fail him for his encampment requirements?
Pat,
Such things already happen, and have happened to me as an encampment commander. (Indigent kid showed up at encampment with a single pair of blues and his squadron had told him that it would be "OK".)
We just do what diligent seniors like you have always done - figured a way to make it work. We scared up a couple of uniforms and a gently used pair of boots in the correct size. Problem solved.
Turns out most troops just want to go to encampment and have a good time rather than make some sort of political protest about regulations. The kid graduated and got his Mitchell. I lost track of him after that . . . .
QuoteI know I am stretchering things a bit.....but we have all seen the regs hounds jump and down over the smallest misplaced comma.
Knowing your long service as well as I do, I'll bet that you would agree with me that we need fewer "regs hounds" and more dedicated seniors who just figure out ways to make our program work for the troops.
Ned Lee
Encampment Enthusiast
"Knowing your long service as well as I do, I'll bet that you would agree with me that we need fewer "regs hounds" and more dedicated seniors who just figure out ways to make our program work for the troops."
Here, here. :clap:
Quote from: Ned on October 27, 2010, 06:39:58 PM....I'll bet that you would agree with me that we need fewer "regs hounds" ....
We'll always have reg hounds, doesn't matter how much we wish otherwise. If wishes were horses, CAP would also be mounted.
Quote from: Ned on October 27, 2010, 06:39:58 PM...and more dedicated seniors who just figure out ways to make our program work for the troops.
Agreed, but the hounds must be pacified as well. Writing pubs that are specific and correct has the added benefit of pacifying those reg hounds. When they find there's nothing to nit pick, they either move on or focus on more important things. Either way, the rest of us win.
Does anyone know where I can get this patch for a flight suit? Is this the patch all in CAP where on their flight suits? Thanks
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v347/Valeron/Misc/right_b_flightsuit1.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v347/Valeron/Misc/right_b_flightsuit2.jpg)
Actually, that's a two iterations out dated patch. The current patch is available from Vanguard. There's no text in the blue area, and the scroll says Civil air Patrol.
"Is this the patch all in CAP where wear on their flight suits?"
Quote from: BradM on October 27, 2010, 09:44:43 PM
Does anyone know where I can get this patch for a flight suit? Is this the patch all in CAP where on their flight suits? Thanks
Not since March 2008..
Quote from: BradM on October 27, 2010, 09:44:43 PM
Does anyone know where I can get this patch for a flight suit? Is this the patch all in CAP where on their flight suits? Thanks
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v347/Valeron/Misc/right_b_flightsuit1.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v347/Valeron/Misc/right_b_flightsuit2.jpg)
You want to buy this one: http://www.vanguardmil.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=13551
The two in the pictures above are obsolete. If one is still wearing it, they are in violation of the regulations.
The version shown above is actually two revisions back - like 4 years, and I still see people wearing it.
Quote from: Eclipse on October 27, 2010, 10:02:26 PM
The version shown above is actually two revisions back - like 4 years, and I still see people wearing it.
Does anyone know where I could swing one? I'd like to put it in my shadow box because it looks nicer than the current one.
Quote from: davidsinn on October 27, 2010, 10:12:17 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 27, 2010, 10:02:26 PM
The version shown above is actually two revisions back - like 4 years, and I still see people wearing it.
Does anyone know where I could swing one? I'd like to put it in my shadow box because it looks nicer than the current one.
I'd have to check but I started wearing my flight suit during that time, I might have one laying around.
No guarantees, that was like 8 moves ago..
the joys of college life...
Quote from: SarDragon on October 27, 2010, 09:48:55 PM
Actually, that's a two iterations out dated patch. The current patch is available from Vanguard. There's no text in the blue area, and the scroll says Civil air Patrol.
"Is this the patch all in CAP where wear on their flight suits?"
Sorry about the typo my fingers typed the wrong word yet my mind was thinking "wear" haha
I often type "teh" and have to correct that as well.
If anyone has the patch I posted pics of can I buy it off you? :)
Thanks!
Thank you for the link to the the current one too.
Quote from: davidsinn on October 27, 2010, 10:12:17 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 27, 2010, 10:02:26 PM
The version shown above is actually two revisions back - like 4 years, and I still see people wearing it.
Does anyone know where I could swing one? I'd like to put it in my shadow box because it looks nicer than the current one.
Get a few spares of the current one, and at the next SAREx start swapping them with people who are still behind the curve.
Unfortunately there are several people in my area (not AOR) who wear them on purpose as some sort of bizarre "statement".
Quote from: Eclipse on October 27, 2010, 10:31:45 PM
Quote from: davidsinn on October 27, 2010, 10:12:17 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 27, 2010, 10:02:26 PM
The version shown above is actually two revisions back - like 4 years, and I still see people wearing it.
Does anyone know where I could swing one? I'd like to put it in my shadow box because it looks nicer than the current one.
Get a few spares of the current one, and at the next SAREx start swapping them with people who are still behind the curve.
Unfortunately there are several people in my area (not AOR) who wear them on purpose as some sort of bizarre "statement".
I'll have to remember that for when the SAREVAL is five miles from my house next summer.
Quote from: JThemann on October 26, 2010, 01:14:35 PM
Quote from: Major Carrales on October 26, 2010, 03:12:21 AM
Quote from: FARRIER on October 25, 2010, 05:15:54 AM
Some of these kids are pretty sharp and will be able to figure out ways, to work for the money, for these items. Joe, you don't give them enough credit.
No, its just that I would prefer that said resources go to other more lofty things than merely some uniform item, which is a basic, or be stopped at a given level because their parents used their encampment money to...I don't know...pay the rent of buy food.
We are here to provide opportunity...its strange that we would only offer a "doorway" with no "door knob."
All I am asking is that we take that into consideration when we do things. Not everyone is from the Rich Side of town.
Major, with all due respect, CAP isn't the Boys and Girls Club. Virtually every volunteering opportunity requires some investment. Heck, I had to buy my own gear for my paid private ambulance company. CAP has never said "We're here to take disadvantaged youth and use Air Force funds to turn their lives around."
On the contrary...the value of our cadet program is said to be in helping the youth of America. When we are talking about minors starting at age "12" who do not have a job for can legally hold one...we are talking about personal finance as a real issue.
Ours is to offer opportunity...not excuses.
There is nothing wrong in calling for financial efficiency in uniform choices. BDUs were once plentiful and readily obtainable from DRMO or a surplus store (sometimes for as low as 7 dollars for each part); that is no longer the case.
Having the expense (at least $70 plus boots and bdu patrol cap) of a uniform they will outgrow rapidly is somewhat ridiculous. Other USAF adopted utility uniforms will one day have the ubiquitous status BDUs once had, keeping BDUs or adopting an alternative will mean that the lion's share of cadets in my squadron could never afford to have the uniform to fully take advantage of what CAP has to offer.
Think...people...stop doing the "political talking point" thing and start meeting the realities.
Quote from: Eclipse on October 26, 2010, 08:04:36 PM
I have been involved with encampments for 10 years, 8 as a CC. That is more than 1000 cadets from at least 5 states.
Never once has anyone indicated they could not come because they could not afford BDUs.
That's because they did not apply. We were donated a good number of bdus from an ROTC department, so we can provide most of what they need, for now. Fact is, if I had to have them buy the field uniform, their parents would likely pull them from this new "MONEY PIT" that CAP would be.
Quote from: tsrup on October 27, 2010, 07:39:44 AM
Has anyone here ever experienced a problem with cadets not having the prescribed uniforms for encampment? And if you did what did you do in that situation?
No sarcasm implied, this is a serious question, have you had the problem, and what did you do (if anything) to solve it?
I scoured the thrift shops and Army/Navy stores of 5 counties until I finally found it all. If I had to do it tomorrow...I would not find anything in way of BDUs, I know...I keep and eye out.
Quote from: Major Carrales on October 28, 2010, 01:11:38 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 26, 2010, 08:04:36 PM
I have been involved with encampments for 10 years, 8 as a CC. That is more than 1000 cadets from at least 5 states.
Never once has anyone indicated they could not come because they could not afford BDUs.
That's because they did not apply.
Oh, well, since you say so...come on. Seriously?
Quote from: Major Carrales on October 28, 2010, 01:11:38 AM
We were donated a good number of bdus from an ROTC department, so we can provide most of what they need, for now. Fact is, if I had to have them buy the field uniform, their parents would likely pull them from this new "MONEY PIT" that CAP would be.
Either your cadets are either living at a level of economic strata that is far below the poverty line, in which case I sympathize, or they
have gotten used to a level of entitlement that is inappropriate.
IN the same way you off-handedly made an assumption above, I will make the assumption that these cadets claiming the inability to buy a field uniform are not carrying cell phones, ipods, or wearing $100 sneakers.
Quote from: Hawk200 on October 27, 2010, 08:31:22 PM
Quote from: Ned on October 27, 2010, 06:39:58 PM....I'll bet that you would agree with me that we need fewer "regs hounds" ....
We'll always have reg hounds, doesn't matter how much we wish otherwise. If wishes were horses, CAP would also be mounted.
Quote from: Ned on October 27, 2010, 06:39:58 PM...and more dedicated seniors who just figure out ways to make our program work for the troops.
Agreed, but the hounds must be pacified as well. Writing pubs that are specific and correct has the added benefit of pacifying those reg hounds. When they find there's nothing to nit pick, they either move on or focus on more important things. Either way, the rest of us win.
Suffice it to say that, like the United States of America, the Civil Air Patrol is, at its heart, a nation of LAWS, not people. This fact has been evident in the indignant tone that resonates here when someone points out that some Wing, Region or National Commander ordained some uniform exception or less than standard wear.
The Regs should be strong and stable guidelines, limited only by safety and common sense, and to fraught with contradictions.
Quote from: Eclipse on October 28, 2010, 01:22:16 AM
IN the same way you off-handedly made an assumption above, I will make the assumption that these cadets claiming the inability to buy a field uniform are not carrying cell phones, ipods, or wearing $100 sneakers.
Welcome to South Texas. Our position is not to burden cadets and parents, but facilitate. Football teams provide the equipment, shimels and jerseys. As do Basketball teams and even the CHESS TEAM.
Why do you all argue for the "MOST EXPENSIVE" choices for our cadets? Are you afraid CAP might let in "the wrong sort?" Can only those that can afford it all...RIGHT NOW...be in CAP?
In the timbre of is thread, there appears to be no way to say this is not CAP's responsibility without further being accused of being either heartless or disconnected.
CAP does not appoint CC's to be an open wallet for its cadets, nor are the units charged with supplying equipment and uniforms. If you can
get them, more power to you, but that doesn't make it a failing on the unit CC if they are not interested in, or unable to, supply uniforms.
Quote from: Eclipse on October 28, 2010, 01:26:58 AM
In the timbre of is thread, there appears to be no way to say this is not CAP's responsibility without further being accused of being either heartless or disconnected.
CAP does not appoint CC's to be an open wallet for its cadets, nor are the units charged with supplying equipment and uniforms. If you can
get them, more power to you, but that doesn't make it a failing on the unit CC if they are not interested in, or unable to, supply uniforms.
CAPTALK discussions often are for people to debate the abstract ideas in an open forum. . This concept it what is clouding our meanings. I suspect.
The basic premise is that the basic cadet uniform is an issue.
We assume the proposition that we are here to provide a program to the youth of America.
Our Cadet Program is a great thing...it provides opportunities that are...for some...a "way out" of something bad, a "way in" for some seeking a certain lifestyle (be it military or aviation) and for some, sadly, a form of recreation because they are bored.
Thoughtless policies, like the flight suit patch listed above, cost unnecessary expenses. Ours is not to have these "great ideas" where people are forced to spend money needlessly.
Yes, there must be some sacrifices...some expenditure. That is a lesson well learned.
However, those that support a cadet uniform mandatory for some activities that is costly merely "because someone had a great idea" will receive no praise from me. If there are surplus or serviceable uniforms available from DRMO and other sources, those are the ones we should use. Not over priced ones from catalogs or clothing outlets.
That is the true issue I'm making...beyond the "abstract" ideas were seem to be hung up on.
Blues, as minimum basic service dress, are inadequate for our ES and PT needs. Now, if we had a uniform like that of the boy scouts, which I am told can serve for Dress and Field functions, that would be a different matter. One uniform for multi-purpose use would limit expenses. However, that idea is a late 19th Century one that speaks more for WWI (where a single tunic served all purposes)
ES is an optional part of the program few cadets, as a whole, participate in, and PT can be done in civilian clothes.
CAP, Inc. is providing the majority of the uniform for the required parts of the program. While the BSA is not a stringent a program as CAP, neither does it provide any uniform items whatsoever, it charges plenty for participation (or requires significant shilling of $18 bags of popcorn), and fully expects the Scouts who plan to excel and progress to have full uniforms and equipment.
You're not going to find an Eagle Scout in a blue T-Shirt and jeans any more than you will find a Spaatz without BDU's.
Quote from: Eclipse on October 28, 2010, 01:47:51 AM
ES is an optional part of the program few cadets, as a whole, participate in, and PT can be done in civilian clothes.
Then why do they need BDUs for encampment?
Your facts may be so nationally, but the "marching in squares and circles" CAP does not fly in my area. Most cadets I deal with want "the whole experience;" and join for that purpose.
They want to D&C, protocol, Emergency Services, community service, O-Flights, present the colors, model rockets, "real" aerospace experiences and PT. You have to "play to your audience."
If all we did every meeting was drill, leadership classes, make paper airplanes and PT tests...as per the bear minimums your comments make to me...I would be the lone CAP member in South Texas and former cadets would flock to gangs just to relieve boredom.
Maybe the above is why we don't retain as many cadets as we should. CAP has to provide real opportunities and experiences to as maximum a level as possible. Not just "minimum basic service."
Quote from: Major Carrales on October 28, 2010, 01:54:20 AM
Your facts may be so nationally, but the "marching in squares and circles" CAP does not fly in my area. Most cadets I deal with want "the whole experience;" and join for that purpose.
And the "whole experience" is...not...free. Anywhere.
Quote from: Major Carrales on October 28, 2010, 01:54:20 AM
They want to D&C, protocol, Emergency Services, community service, O-Flights, present the colors, model rockets, "real" aerospace experiences and PT. You have to "play to your audience."
And you have to pay to play.
Quote from: Major Carrales on October 28, 2010, 01:54:20 AMThen why do they need BDUs for encampment?
Because blues is not an appropriate uniform for many encampment activities. BDUs is a utility uniform, to be worn when the wearer is going to get dirty.
Would you do an obstacle course in your blues? I sure wouldn't.
Would you participate in rappelling in your blues? Nope, not that one, either.
Encampment isn't just about sitting around in classrooms, or getting tours of base facilities, where blues might do OK. There are outside activities where the cadets are going to get dirty, and BDUs are needed.
Quote from: Eclipse on October 28, 2010, 02:04:19 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on October 28, 2010, 01:54:20 AM
Your facts may be so nationally, but the "marching in squares and circles" CAP does not fly in my area. Most cadets I deal with want "the whole experience;" and join for that purpose.
And the "whole experience" is...not...free. Anywhere.
Quote from: Major Carrales on October 28, 2010, 01:54:20 AM
They want to D&C, protocol, Emergency Services, community service, O-Flights, present the colors, model rockets, "real" aerospace experiences and PT. You have to "play to your audience."
And you have to pay to play.
What separates us from the ordinary is that when people say "it cannot be done," we "do it" better than anyone could have dreamed.
I want them saving their money for the "big stuff," not the ordinary.
So, what? You want cadets paying Hundreds of Dollars on some uniform just to show up to the meeting? Or do you want them, instead, to save that money for advanced things?
If there are surplus or serviceable uniforms available from DRMO and other sources, those are the ones we should use. Not over-priced ones from catalogs or clothing outlets.
Quote from: SarDragon on October 28, 2010, 02:10:35 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on October 28, 2010, 01:54:20 AMThen why do they need BDUs for encampment?
Because blues is not an appropriate uniform for many encampment activities. BDUs is a utility uniform, to be worn when the wearer is going to get dirty.
Would you do an obstacle course in your blues? I sure wouldn't.
Would you participate in rappelling in your blues? Nope, not that one, either.
Encampment isn't just about sitting around in classrooms, or getting tours of base facilities, where blues might do OK. There are outside activities where the cadets are going to get dirty, and BDUs are needed.
Excellent, I knew someone would prove my point. Did you really think, SARDragon, that I needed an "education" on that?
It seems that the "minimum basic service uniform" is not adequate for all CAP activities.
In fact, based on what people have said throughout CAPTALK...the utility uniforms might best be the basic and the "dress uniform" be the exception. Leads to an interesting question... "Should the USAF provide a utility uniform instead of the short sleeve blues?"
What is next?
24-hour gear for each cadet so they can be a GTM?
Full-ride travel scholarships to every NCSA? How about a free ride for all to NESA & HMRS? Comms is important - every cadet should have an HT! Can't get email? Here's a laptop and a free year of broadband service.
No home phone? Here you go - fancy new Droid with unlimited minutes.
Quote from: Eclipse on October 28, 2010, 02:21:11 AM
What is next?
24-hour gear for each cadet so they can be a GTM?
Full-ride travel scholarships to every NCSA? How about a free ride for all to NESA & HMRS? Comms is important - every cadet should have an HT! Can't get email? Here's a laptop and a free year of broadband service.
No home phone? Here you go - fancy new Droid with unlimited minutes.
Don't be a schmuck...you know what is reasonable and what is ridiculous. Providing a basic uniform is enough, especially when one is provided free already. Anything else required should be equally reasonable to acquire at a reasonable price.
But if you want to go there...the squadron can have such equipment as GT items, color guard equipment and the like on hand and issued/checked out for use.
You still have not answered the question as to why you want them spending money (hundreds) that would best be spent on other things in CAP?
I'm of the opinion that you just want to argue.
Quote from: Major Carrales on October 28, 2010, 02:17:52 AM"Should the USAF provide a utility uniform instead of the short sleeve blues?"
Again, the USAF doesn't provide the blues. The question is, "Should CAP provide a utility uniform instead of the short sleeve blues?"
Quote from: jimmydeanno on October 28, 2010, 02:30:39 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on October 28, 2010, 02:17:52 AM"Should the USAF provide a utility uniform instead of the short sleeve blues?"
Again, the USAF doesn't provide the blues. The question is, "Should CAP provide a utility uniform instead of the short sleeve blues?"
Slip of the keys...and my answer would be "yes." USAF blues are much easier to find (JROTC, SURPLUS STORES and ONLINE) than BDUs (going up in price and down in quality) these days.
Quote from: Major Carrales on October 28, 2010, 01:24:38 AM
Quote from: Hawk200 link=topic=11387.msg212064#msg212064
Suffice it to say that, like the United States of America, the Civil Air Patrol is, at its heart, a nation of LAWS, not people.
/quote]
Actually, the Preamble to the US Constitution begins "We the People..."
the same point is found in the Bible (Gospel): "The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath.".
Neither regs nor laws exist for their own sake, but to protect people (even from one another or themselves) and to enable people to work together toward a common goal. In society, this goal is building & maintaining a civil community; in CAP, the goal is accomplishing our missions.
Quote from: ZigZag911 on October 28, 2010, 03:19:09 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on October 28, 2010, 01:24:38 AM
Quote from: Hawk200 link=topic=11387.msg212064#msg212064
Suffice it to say that, like the United States of America, the Civil Air Patrol is, at its heart, a nation of LAWS, not people.
/quote]
Actually, the Preamble to the US Constitution begins "We the People..."
the same point is found in the Bible (Gospel): "The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath.".
Neither regs nor laws exist for their own sake, but to protect people (even from one another or themselves) and to enable people to work together toward a common goal. In society, this goal is building & maintaining a civil community; in CAP, the goal is accomplishing our missions.
Again, our nation is a nation governed by the rule of law, not of the individuals who represent the people.
The Supreme Law of the Land is the Constitution...not the decrees of Executives, our Legislators nor our Judicial magistrates. All that is done is done within the framework of the Constitution. Thus, the President must not dictate law, the Congress cannot work in extra-constitutional or unconstitutional manners and those on the Court are held to benchmark public policy to that document.
The system of checks and balances, limited government and republican form of government are preserved in the US Constitution, which is followed to insure that government is consistent.
If the focus was on those "in charge," that would allow all manner of travesty in the name of "We the People..." Thus, the People depend on the Constitution to serve as a social contract. Once violated, those in power can be voted out.
CAP regulations have to serve the same purpose. Accomplishing the missions through the framework of the Regulations and Manuals. If the missions is, for example, to search for a lost pilot...the procedures in the Regulations must provide for order instead of chaos. We could find the lost pilot...and lose three more in the process because of failure to adhere to certain regulations.
We all share a dislike of higher ups "making it up," "granting exceptions" or "granting certain favors" outside of the scope of properly established policy. That, was a point I attempted to make.
We have these rules to insure safety, security and consistency. Failure to maintain usable consistent and "more perfect" regulations that address real matters and are rooted in reality based circumstance/implementation is key to this process. Severely flawed regulations with glaring contradictions hinder more than help.
Quote from: Eclipse on October 28, 2010, 01:22:16 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on October 28, 2010, 01:11:38 AM
We were donated a good number of bdus from an ROTC department, so we can provide most of what they need, for now. Fact is, if I had to have them buy the field uniform, their parents would likely pull them from this new "MONEY PIT" that CAP would be.
Either your cadets are either living at a level of economic strata that is far below the poverty line, in which case I sympathize, or they
have gotten used to a level of entitlement that is inappropriate.
The silver spoon analogy doesn't work. Eclipse is correct. Unless all of today's teenagers, including the twelve year olds are no longer taught a work ethic, I'd bet they would convince thier parents to let them stay in CAP. They would figure out how to make the cash for the set of BDU's. And your implication somewhere in this thread that the cadets would all, otherwise, end up in the gangs speak poorly of the parents too.
So are we getting ABU's or not?!?!?!?!?!
Quote from: Patterson on October 28, 2010, 01:48:38 PM
So are we getting ABU's or not?!?!?!?!?!
No. And the USAF will probably be out of them in the next year as well.
Quote from: FARRIER on October 28, 2010, 07:25:27 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on October 28, 2010, 01:22:16 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on October 28, 2010, 01:11:38 AM
We were donated a good number of bdus from an ROTC department, so we can provide most of what they need, for now. Fact is, if I had to have them buy the field uniform, their parents would likely pull them from this new "MONEY PIT" that CAP would be.
Either your cadets are either living at a level of economic strata that is far below the poverty line, in which case I sympathize, or they
have gotten used to a level of entitlement that is inappropriate.
The silver spoon analogy doesn't work. Eclipse is correct. Unless all of today's teenagers, including the twelve year olds are no longer taught a work ethic, I'd bet they would convince thier parents to let them stay in CAP. They would figure out how to make the cash for the set of BDU's. And your implication somewhere in this thread that the cadets would all, otherwise, end up in the gangs speak poorly of the parents too.
Considering where the Major is located, gangs are about the only other option, regardless of what the parents are doing.
Quote from: Eclipse on October 28, 2010, 02:50:38 PM
Quote from: Patterson on October 28, 2010, 01:48:38 PM
So are we getting ABU's or not?!?!?!?!?!
No. And the USAF will probably be out of them in the next year as well.
"Out of them" as no longer using them or out of stock?
^ No longer using them and transitioning to OCP/MultiCam.
I have heard that the congress is going to mandate one uniform for all the services like the Woodland BDU
Quote from: NJMEDIC on October 29, 2010, 01:58:13 AM
I have heard that the congress is going to mandate one uniform for all the services like the Woodland BDU
This idea comes and goes. It is sort of a vicious cycle. One cycle experts make this same realization..."We need one uniform for economics sake and for consistency..." everyone agrees, for a while.
Then, one branch decides it needs a specific uniform. Then...they all do. That was the whole "digital camo uniform" movement of recent years starting with, if memory serves, the US Marines, then the US Army and then everyone else (I may have that wrong due to perception) I'm sure millions were spent developing those things and the accompanying wear tests et al.
Then, once everyone has their "baby," experts make the realization..."Hey, we need one uniform for economics sake and for consistency..." everyone agrees, for a while. :'(
It seems to me that each service should have one for desert climates and one for European/Asian type climates. I dont see why the Navy needs blue digital camo though if you fall in the ocean no one will be able to find you ;)
Quote from: BradM on October 29, 2010, 02:16:16 AM
It seems to me that each service should have one for desert climates and one for European/Asian type climates. I dont see why the Navy needs blue digital camo though if you fall in the ocean no one will be able to find you ;)
I think one basic design for all with specific patterns and gear for varying climates. Even in the 19th century they used "whites" for tropical places, "khakis" for deserts and "blues" for colder climates.
Quote from: Major Carrales on October 29, 2010, 02:22:58 AMI think one basic design for all with specific patterns and gear for varying climates. Even in the 19th century they used "whites" for tropical places, "khakis" for deserts and "blues" for colder climates.
I do like to be able to tell Marines from Army in photos. Perhaps the Air Force could have the same camo as the Army but I like the Marines having their own look.
Quote from: BradM on October 29, 2010, 02:16:16 AM
It seems to me that each service should have one for desert climates and one for European/Asian type climates. I dont see why the Navy needs blue digital camo though if you fall in the ocean no one will be able to find you ;)
When they fall into salt water, they turn BRIGHT orange :o
Quote from: BradM on October 29, 2010, 02:16:16 AM
It seems to me that each service should have one for desert climates and one for European/Asian type climates. I dont see why the Navy needs blue digital camo though if you fall in the ocean no one will be able to find you ;)
The point in MultiCam/OCP is that it is reasonably effective in a wide range of climates, compared to the current UCP scheme used by the Army and AF (different patterns, same basic colors) which is supposed to, but really just makes you stand out everywhere.
The Marines have a good system with their two MARPAT uniforms, I don't see the point in forcing them to dump the pattern that has served them well for almost a decade now.
The Navy's NWU isn't supposed to camouflage anything, it's just meant to be a functional work uniform. I have heard that the 'camo pattern' on it is designed to
look hardcore hide stains, which are apparently common/almost unavoidable when living on a boat.
Quote from: DC on October 29, 2010, 02:53:59 AM
The point in MultiCam/OCP is that it is reasonably effective in a wide range of climates, compared to the current UCP scheme used by the Army and AF (different patterns, same basic colors) which is supposed to, but really just makes you stand out everywhere.
The Marines have a good system with their two MARPAT uniforms, I don't see the point in forcing them to dump the pattern that has served them well for almost a decade now.
The Navy's NWU isn't supposed to camouflage anything, it's just meant to be a functional work uniform. I have heard that the 'camo pattern' on it is designed to look hardcore hide stains, which are apparently common/almost unavoidable when living on a boat.
The Army, Air Force, and Navy in the MultiCam/OCP and the Marines in the MARPAT?
Quote from: Eclipse on October 28, 2010, 02:50:38 PM
Quote from: Patterson on October 28, 2010, 01:48:38 PM
So are we getting ABU's or not?!?!?!?!?!
No. And the USAF will probably be out of them in the next year as well.
And this nugget of infomation came from where? (Cite your source please.)
Quote from: PHall on October 29, 2010, 03:26:10 AM
And this nugget of infomation came from where? (Cite your source please.)
http://soldiersystems.net/2009/07/30/congress-proposes-common-ground-combat-uniform/
http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2010/09/air-force-airmen-to-get-multicam-pattern-091110w/
http://www.bradleyssurplus.com/blog/infantry-usaf-fixes-its-color-conflict-adopts-multicam/
http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/2010/09/03/usaf-to-adopt-multicam/
http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2010/03/airforce_afghanistan_uniforms_032810w/
http://domhyde.wordpress.com/2010/09/18/multicam-for-usaf/
Plenty more where that came from...
Just FYI but these questions came up when the Air Force changed over from the "Pickle Suit" to BDU's. We waited a few years later and CAP was approved the BDU's.
The problem was fixed then and I'm sure it will be fixed when time comes as well for this time around.
Seems to me if the wing doesn't have enough BDU's to go around or units are not insisting borrowed BDU's be returned from members who leave the unit, someone isn't doing their job.
Quote from: BradM on October 29, 2010, 02:16:16 AM
It seems to me that each service should have one for desert climates and one for European/Asian type climates. I dont see why the Navy needs blue digital camo though if you fall in the ocean no one will be able to find you ;)
Guess what? That's no different from what it has been since some time in the '30s (maybe before). The working uniform for the Navy has been blue for a very long time.
The digital camo isn't to hide from people, it's to help hide the dirt that sailors are exposed to in a shipboard environment.
Quote from: Eclipse on October 29, 2010, 03:36:02 AM
Quote from: PHall on October 29, 2010, 03:26:10 AM
And this nugget of infomation came from where? (Cite your source please.)
http://soldiersystems.net/2009/07/30/congress-proposes-common-ground-combat-uniform/
http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2010/09/air-force-airmen-to-get-multicam-pattern-091110w/
http://www.bradleyssurplus.com/blog/infantry-usaf-fixes-its-color-conflict-adopts-multicam/
http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/2010/09/03/usaf-to-adopt-multicam/
http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2010/03/airforce_afghanistan_uniforms_032810w/
http://domhyde.wordpress.com/2010/09/18/multicam-for-usaf/
Plenty more where that came from...
And not one of them is an "official" source. How about something from the Air Force Uniform Board?
In case you haven't noticed, the various military "Times" newspapers are NOT an official source of information.
No, they aren't - they only quote official sources and contain photos of airman in multicams.
Quote from: PHall on October 29, 2010, 04:49:11 AM
And not one of them is an "official" source. How about something from the Air Force Uniform Board?
In case you haven't noticed, the various military "Times" newspapers are NOT an official source of information.
A lot more reliable than hearsay. A few years ago, one of the bases I was stationed considered banning the "Times" from the base over an improperly researched story. They may not have absolutely correct dates, but they're usually in the know.
It would certainly be beneficial to have a single uniform pattern. If you need anything specialized, such as flash resistant, fire resistant, or other such things; it would be a lot easier to just have a common pattern. It would beneficial for OPSEC purposes as well. Never really know which branch you're dealing with until they're up close, and too late.
Quote from: Eclipse on October 29, 2010, 05:24:41 AM
No, they aren't - they only quote official sources and contain photos of airman in multicams.
They all only mention issuing to Airmen working outside the wire in Afghanistan
this link: http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2010/03/airforce_afghanistan_uniforms_032810w/ that you provided even says in big bold letters
No plans to replace the ABU...
Quote from: tsrup on October 29, 2010, 05:31:41 AMThey all only mention issuing to Airmen working outside the wire in Afghanistan
this link: http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2010/03/airforce_afghanistan_uniforms_032810w/ that you provided even says in big bold letters No plans to replace the ABU...
That's the way it starts. Goes to the "special" units first, then to all combat theaters, then trickles down to the folks in the States.
You can already get just about any military branch insignia you want in MultiCam colors, in just about any color combo you want. Each branch will probably have their own thread color or options in how they want to ID, but it's all there.
It doesn't matter what uniform the Armed Services end up in for the next ten years. When the USAF changed their uniforms, it has always been that a few years after they made the switch fully across the service then they would authorize the uniform for CAP. This makes a great deal of sense, they first and foremost need to ensure that the soldiers that have the potential to deploy (I say potential because when they have changed the uniform in the past we haven't always been at war) so that they are ready. What ever they decide to wear as a uniform we will most likely get in a few years after the whole of the Air Force is wearing the uniform.
Note that USAF still has about 40% of its force still in BDUs, so that means that they are not ready to change us over yet.
Just remember how it worked when changing from the pickles to BDUs, and when the old style service dress was changed to the new style. It just takes some time. Please just be patient with it.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on October 29, 2010, 06:53:48 PM
Note that USAF still has about 40% of its force still in BDUs, so that means that they are not ready to change us over yet.
Really? Just out of curiosity, where did you get the info? I live on an AF Base and have spent months this year at various others and have only seen 1 or 2 people in BDUs. At 40% I should have seen thousands.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on October 29, 2010, 07:04:47 PM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on October 29, 2010, 06:53:48 PM
Note that USAF still has about 40% of its force still in BDUs, so that means that they are not ready to change us over yet.
Really? Just out of curiosity, where did you get the info? I live on an AF Base and have spent months this year at various others and have only seen 1 or 2 people in BDUs. At 40% I should have seen thousands.
My apologies I meant to say about 40%, that was about six months ago on the USAF Times, who was able to back up their numbers, sadly I cannot find a link to the article. Having been in the Army for about six years I have read the Army and USAF Times quite a bit and I do put a lot of faith in what they say because I have never read an article of theirs that was way off base. They might have missed a few minor details, but have never been flat wrong in any sense. USAF might have upped their numbers quite a bit since then, but I do know that
MOST all USAF personnel on Army Posts wear either BDUs or they are actually caught in ACU uniforms. The old TBDU uniform is used by many Airmen on Army Posts also, Fort Campbell being one of the ones who rarely have Airmen in ABU uniforms. I just spent about a week down their very recently.
I was at Maxwell for NSC in the SOS Building and saw a few of the new Lt's in BDU's
4 or 40 it is still an active USAF uniform, combatant airman are being issued Multicams, and Congress is looking to move back to
a common field uniform.
CAP will never see the ABU and the USAF will likely sundown ABU's in less than 3 years.
What is amusing is that this thread started with Riveraux posting the AFTimes article about the multicams, but the thread got so derailed that people forgot that.
Quote from: Eclipse on October 29, 2010, 07:35:20 PMWhat is amusing is that this thread started with Riveraux posting the AFTimes article about the multicams, but the thread got so derailed that people forgot that.
I don't see us in MultiCam in the near future (which in my own thought process is about five years). I figure we'd see ABU's before MultiCam, but only if all the direct AF programs get them first, and there's plenty of overstock available.
For CAP, I figure some nice tan tapes and patch backgrounds would be pretty distinctive.
My random WAG (mark the date), is that the perceived lack of BDU's forces a move for all members to the blue field uniform, because the USAF uniform will still be in too much flux to move to whatever they are wearing in 2012 or 13.
I just bought my first woodland BDUs yesterday so I dont mind if there is a few years delay :)
Quote from: BradM on October 30, 2010, 12:54:01 AM
I just bought my first woodland BDUs yesterday so I dont mind if there is a few years delay :)
Don't worry, there will be. We (CAP) were authorized to wear BDUs in 1990, the green fatigues didn't sundown until 1995, IIRC.
I'd anticipate the same for any transition from BDUs to whatever we end up with.
Just think, if all of the sudden SEALs, Special Forces and Marine Recon guys started wearing Blue BDUs, every cadet and half the senior members would be slamming ABU/ACU/MultiCam and pushing for BBDUs because they're THE BEST EVAR!
Quote from: Stonewall on October 30, 2010, 11:28:37 AM
Just think, if all of the sudden SEALs, Special Forces and Marine Recon guys started wearing Blue BDUs, every cadet and half the senior members would be slamming ABU/ACU/MultiCam and pushing for BBDUs because they're THE BEST EVAR!
Nah, they wouldn't be that cool 'til the USAF guys got in on it (for me, at least).
Especially those Security Forces types.
Quote from: DakRadz on October 30, 2010, 11:43:15 AMNah, they wouldn't be that cool 'til the USAF guys got in on it (for me, at least).
I bet if some PJs showed up to PJOC next summer, every cadet in CAP would have BBDUs by the time school started back up again.
According to an interview with Chief Master Sergeant James A. Roy, the Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force, ABUs are here to stay. The only change coming is the summer weight ABU. Even though they have not been popular with those who wear them, that doesn't mean they are short lived.
Here on Scott AFB, there are only a hand full of people wearing BDUs. At the MCSS, there is a very small picked over supply of BDU stripes and badges. They don't even display them anymore. In fact I ordered a couple of badges from Vanguard and they are on back order and have been going on 2 months now. There have been no BDUs on the shelves for almost a year or more.
We need to remember that the DCU was issued to deploying members since the first gulf war. We never saw them replace the BDUs.
I had heard from a very reliable source that the AF gave CAP the blessing to wear them, but it has been CAP that is dragging their feet for one reason or another. I was told they are wanting to do this uniform right by getting the proper input and look for us. After all we will be wearing them for sometime. With all the uniform changes over the last four years, I for one, hope they do it right and I am willing to wait for them.
Quote from: mmouw on October 31, 2010, 01:13:52 AM
...I had heard from a very reliable source...
Ohboyherewego.jpg
Quote from: DBlair on September 12, 2010, 04:26:58 PM
BDUs are already getting scarce, if we are going to wear them for another 5 years, where are we going to find them?
I'll disagree with this statement. I have found that surplus stores have stacks of new BDUs from Propper, etc. on the shelves.
Quote from: mmouw on October 31, 2010, 01:13:52 AM
According to an interview with Chief Master Sergeant James A. Roy, the Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force, ABUs are here to stay. The only change coming is the summer weight ABU. Even though they have not been popular with those who wear them, that doesn't mean they are short lived.
I meant to ask you to cite this. Anything dated before the multi-cam issue to the troops won't hold much weight.
Quote from: Eclipse on November 08, 2010, 08:48:59 PM
Quote from: mmouw on October 31, 2010, 01:13:52 AM
According to an interview with Chief Master Sergeant James A. Roy, the Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force, ABUs are here to stay. The only change coming is the summer weight ABU. Even though they have not been popular with those who wear them, that doesn't mean they are short lived.
I meant to ask you to cite this. Anything dated before the multi-cam issue to the troops won't hold much weight.
Actually, he said this in response to the Multi-Cam issue, because of the scare/freak out. Multi-Cam only to Afghanistan-bound Airman.
It was in the Airman magazine, let me see if I can find it.
I was wrong. I'll find it.
Alrighty, maybe I'm crazy- mmouw, help me with a cite.
However, I say we still come back to the fine but bright line details in this article (http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2010/09/air-force-airmen-to-get-multicam-pattern-091110w/)
Here is the link...
http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123173118
BTW my wife was in the audience and yes he did say that ABUs are here to stay!!
Here on Scott, on any given day, there are maybe a hand full of people on base that are in BDUs. Its not because they don't have ABUs, its more so out of nostalgia.
Quote from: mmouw on November 12, 2010, 03:42:42 AM
Here is the link...
http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123173118
BTW my wife was in the audience and yes he did say that ABUs are here to stay!!
With all due respect, and bear in mind that I am on your side, I can't accept word of mouth friend-of-a-friend as my source.... That article does not give any concrete support to the "ABUs are here to stay" theory/claim.
Quote from: DakRadz on November 12, 2010, 04:54:49 AM
Quote from: mmouw on November 12, 2010, 03:42:42 AM
Here is the link...
http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123173118
BTW my wife was in the audience and yes he did say that ABUs are here to stay!!
With all due respect, and bear in mind that I am on your side, I can't accept word of mouth friend-of-a-friend as my source.... That article does not give any concrete support to the "ABUs are here to stay" theory/claim.
Show me "concrete" support that ABUs are on the way out... i have seen nothing from the "brass" that actually says "good bye ABU's"...so....were arguing about a "possible maybe" or a military classic "stand by to wait one, to stand by"? I wear ABU's everday and have heard nothing about the ABU's going away....only those deploying get the new multi...so....
Quote from: NCRblues on November 12, 2010, 05:01:27 AM
Show me "concrete" support that ABUs are on the way out... i have seen nothing from the "brass" that actually says "good bye ABU's"...so....were arguing about a "possible maybe" or a military classic "stand by to wait one, to stand by"? I wear ABU's everday and have heard nothing about the ABU's going away....only those deploying get the new multi...so....
I agree with you. The article doesn't give confirmation one way or the other- I was merely saying that it couldn't be used as a source, by anyone; at least, not for our discussion.
There has been nothing put out about ABU's going away. And the Air Forces Times is not an official publication of the USAF. IMHO I do not see the ABU going away anytime soon, I have had a few co workers wearing ACU's while conducting and OTW mission and it's on been within this past year that the multi-cam has been authorized for the Army operating in Afghanistan. They are still debating a new service dress uniform, but nothing on a change to the utility uniform. The AF is authorizing it for OTW missions since so many airmen are conducting JET missions OTW. I have yet to hear anything from an Official source to say that we are losing the ABU's and if our head enlisted guy says they are here to stay then until something comes down in an official release IMHO they are here to stay.
The Army is still debating the service dress? I thought the phase-out of the greens was a done deal.
Hmmm ...
Jack
My apologies the AF is still debating the stinking service dress the Army has tossed the greens for the blues.
The Army has gone fully to the "ASD," the blues uniform with a dark blue four square pocket, gold trimmed epaulets, you can either wear full size medals or ribbons, and the headgear is beret or service cap. The pants are almost an Infantry blue with NCOs wearing a gold stripe down the legs and private to E-4 (E-4 team leader considered NCO) with no gold stripe.
I have not heard of USAF thinking of changing the dress uniform again.
DOD says that they ant all branches to transfer into the same field uniform, but I don't see that happening with all the money that has already gone into the uniform changes.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on December 01, 2010, 05:36:00 PM
The Army has gone fully to the "ASD," the blues uniform with a dark blue four square pocket, gold trimmed epaulets, you can either wear full size medals or ribbons, and the headgear is beret or service cap. The pants are almost an Infantry blue with NCOs wearing a gold stripe down the legs and private to E-4 (E-4 team leader considered NCO) with no gold stripe.
I have not heard of USAF thinking of changing the dress uniform again.
DOD says that they ant all branches to transfer into the same field uniform, but I don't see that happening with all the money that has already gone into the uniform changes.
The AF had been considering a new dress uniform, but I think they have stopped for now. Something about no money, or something.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 01, 2010, 11:59:41 PMThe AF had been considering a new dress uniform, but I think they have stopped for now. Something about no money, or something.
You mean these two styles?
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/44/147295193_6a2a55c987.jpg)
(http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/web/060515-F-0055L-005.JPG)
I like the bottom style the best. Either the bottom style or the pattern of the Army greens but in Air Force blue, 4 Air Force "Hap Arnold" buttons, no belt, current Air Force service cap.
(http://www.uniforms-4u.com/Productimages/8236/big-u-us-army-general-class-a-green-coat-9753.jpg)
All long forgotten. No longer being considered.
Wow that top one just looks like what Hitler would have his "civilian" (non-military) police in. Absolutely hideous. Absolutely agree with the idea of the Army green uniform just in blue. I think that would be a rather good idea, have all the services in the same cut of uniform just in different colors.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on December 02, 2010, 12:19:13 AM
Wow that top one just looks like what Hitler would have his "civilian" (non-military) police in. Absolutely hideous. Absolutely agree with the idea of the Army green uniform just in blue. I think that would be a rather good idea, have all the services in the same cut of uniform just in different colors.
It's a blue version of the US Army's uniform from WW I...
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on December 02, 2010, 12:19:13 AM
Wow that top one just looks like what Hitler would have his "civilian" (non-military) police in. Absolutely hideous. Absolutely agree with the idea of the Army green uniform just in blue. I think that would be a rather good idea, have all the services in the same cut of uniform just in different colors.
I think the Marines would disagree. They've changed their uniforms very, very little in the past century or two. I
never have planned to join the Marines (not for negative reasons), but that's pretty straight and true heritage. Only the field/fatigue uniforms, and that's merely to keep up with styles/effectiveness of the day. (Flying Pig, feel free to correct me)
The Navy is pretty static on dress uniforms too. Fairly so- you can see WWII pictures of extremely similar Service Dress Blue Uniforms of today. And they've brought/are bringing the Service Dress Khakis back- heritage. (SarDragon, you too)
The Army- Yes, they've made some fairly major changes (saw this in a post by Kachenmeister, listed the uniforms he's lived through or served in Army-wise); although revamped and modified, the new Service Uniform is a throwback to Civil War-era dress. Heritage.
The Coast Guard- They wore Navy uniforms for a long time, but they've had the same Service Dress Blues since 1972. The changes distinguished themselves yet kept aspects of the Navy and their time in those uniforms (and they kept the white Chokers, too- smart move ;))
Heritage.
Now, someone was talking about the Air Force.....?
I like the bottom one. The top one looks too Marine-ish.
Oh, I retract my hitler statement, the top one looks black, I have never seen it before.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on December 02, 2010, 12:43:41 AM
Oh, I retract my hitler statement, the top one looks black, I have never seen it before.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v347/Valeron/USAirForce/AirForceUniformESB1_33.jpg)
"I find your lack of faith disturbing!" ;)
And look at the other officer's face- it fits perfectly!
Quote from: DakRadz on December 02, 2010, 12:31:47 AM
I think the Marines would disagree. They've changed their uniforms very, very little in the past century or two. I never have planned to join the Marines (not for negative reasons), but that's pretty straight and true heritage. Only the field/fatigue uniforms, and that's merely to keep up with styles/effectiveness of the day. (Flying Pig, feel free to correct me)
The Navy is pretty static on dress uniforms too. Fairly so- you can see WWII pictures of extremely similar Service Dress Blue Uniforms of today. And they've brought/are bringing the Service Dress Khakis back- heritage. (SarDragon, you too)
Now, someone was talking about the Air Force.....?
I think the Marine Corps and the Navy should keep their current uniforms. Its the Air Force that I think should have a 4 pocket tunic again instead of the business suit style. And, I think the womens uniform should not be the same as the mens as in the pictures of the proposed styles. I like the women's Air Force uniforms that they have now or in the 1990s.
Quote from: BradM on December 02, 2010, 12:54:17 AM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on December 02, 2010, 12:43:41 AM
Oh, I retract my hitler statement, the top one looks black, I have never seen it before.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v347/Valeron/USAirForce/AirForceUniformESB1_33.jpg)
"I find your lack of faith disturbing!"
;)
I enjoyed reading the copyright note on that:
"Dude where's the beach?"
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on December 01, 2010, 05:36:00 PM
The Army has gone fully to the "ASD," the blues uniform with a dark blue four square pocket, gold trimmed epaulets, you can either wear full size medals or ribbons, and the headgear is beret or service cap. The pants are almost an Infantry blue with NCOs wearing a gold stripe down the legs and private to E-4 (E-4 team leader considered NCO) with no gold stripe.
I have not heard of USAF thinking of changing the dress uniform again.
DOD says that they ant all branches to transfer into the same field uniform, but I don't see that happening with all the money that has already gone into the uniform changes.
My son just graduated from Army BCT at Ft. Sill. The new Army blue uniform looks very, very classy and attractive in person.
I love the Army blues, they are the only thing that I kept from the Army.
I thought this thread was about ABUs?
Like most threads on CT, it always wanders. Guess that interest was lost on the subject of ABUs.
Well, it IS still about uniforms and changes the AF may or may not make to such uniforms, so it hasn't wandered as much as some do!
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 02, 2010, 10:13:31 PM
Well, it IS still about uniforms and changes the AF may or may not make to such uniforms, so it hasn't wandered as much as some do!
And if these Service Dress options had been put into effect, the likely outcome is we would have phased them in. Seems that they are no longer being considered, but it was still relevant.
Quote from: HGjunkie on September 12, 2010, 04:48:12 PM
Quote from: DBlair on September 12, 2010, 04:26:58 PM
BDUs are already getting scarce, if we are going to wear them for another 5 years, where are we going to find them?
Propper, Ebay, Army Navy stores, and other places. I can get a new set of BDUs easily through Propper, Army Navy stores either order new ones or sell surplus.
Propper BDU Blouse (https://www.epropper.com/products/40/category/49/BDU_4-Pocket_Coat.htm)
Propper BDU Trousers (https://www.epropper.com/products/5/category/49/BDU_Trouser_-_Button_Fly.htm)
Barre Army Navy BDUs (http://www.vtarmynavy.com/Woodland_Camo_BDU.htm)
Edit- added links
there are only a few BDUs in the army navy store at the moment, and nobody wants to order bdu's because that would cost almost twice the amount for a new set of ABUs in the army navy store.... and does anybody know if CAC has said anything about the ABU's?
CAC doesn't determine anything when it comes to uniforms. Or any regulation, for that matter.
CAC provides the adults with insight into our views and ideas for the cadet program.
We have no authority to authorize things.
Source: C/2d Lt, Primary CAC Rep. GAWG CAC.
ABUs are not allowed for CAP wear. Likely they will not be for some years. Buy the BDUs, because ABUs are far in the future for us.
Quote from: JArvey on December 08, 2010, 12:49:31 AM...nobody wants to order bdu's because that would cost almost twice the amount for a new set of ABUs in the army navy store
Not sure where you're shopping, but that's a fail. ABUs are more expensive than BDUs, easily anywhere from five to twenty bucks per piece.
Quote from: JArvey on December 08, 2010, 12:49:31 AM
.... and does anybody know if CAC has said anything about the ABU's?
If you're talking Cadet Advisory Council, it doesn't matter what they say. Not up to them.
Quote from: DakRadz on December 08, 2010, 12:55:40 AM
CAC doesn't determine anything when it comes to uniforms. Or any regulation, for that matter.
CAC provides the adults with insight into our views and ideas for the cadet program.
We have no authority to authorize things.
Source: C/2d Lt, Primary CAC Rep. GAWG CAC.
ABUs are not allowed for CAP wear. Likely they will not be for some years. Buy the BDUs, because ABUs are far in the future for us.
First of all Wing CAC does not determine any regs. Only NCAC does (look at their website) and what Lt.? Becuase I am a C/2nd Lt. primary CAC rep in GAWG.
oh no. A dreaded CAC fight!
>:D >:D
Quote from: JArvey on December 10, 2010, 09:06:47 PM
First of all Wing CAC does not determine any regs. Only NCAC does (look at their website)
NCAC doesn't "authorize"
anything.
CAC has zero authority regardless of echelon, thus the "A".
^^^^^^^^Thank you, Eclipse, my good sir! ^^^^^^^^^^^
Quote from: JArvey on December 10, 2010, 09:06:47 PM
Quote from: DakRadz on December 08, 2010, 12:55:40 AM
CAC doesn't determine anything when it comes to uniforms. Or any regulation, for that matter.
CAC provides the adults with insight into our views and ideas for the cadet program.
We have no authority to authorize things.
Source: C/2d Lt, Primary CAC Rep. GAWG CAC.
ABUs are not allowed for CAP wear. Likely they will not be for some years. Buy the BDUs, because ABUs are far in the future for us.
First of all Wing CAC does not determine any regs. Only NCAC does (look at their website) and what Lt.? Becuase I am a C/2nd Lt. primary CAC rep in GAWG.
Me, as to the source. I'm a primary rep.
NCAC does not determine regs either. Anyone believing they do is misinformed. We are cadets- we do not determine governance or regs.
Cant the NCAC change some regs? I thought that until I read the NCAC website.
Quote from: JArvey on December 10, 2010, 09:14:15 PM
Cant the NCAC change some regs? I thought that until I read the NCAC website.
No.
Quote from: JArvey on December 10, 2010, 09:14:15 PM
Cant the NCAC change some regs? I thought that until I read the NCAC website.
No. The only bodies which can make any regulatory changes are the NEC and the BOG.
My apologies. And DakRadz what squadron are you from?
Quote from: Eclipse on December 10, 2010, 09:16:30 PM
Quote from: JArvey on December 10, 2010, 09:14:15 PM
Cant the NCAC change some regs? I thought that until I read the NCAC website.
No. The only bodies which can make any regulatory changes are the NEC and the BOG.
... and the NB.
Quote from: JArvey on December 10, 2010, 09:18:08 PM
My apologies. And DakRadz what squadron are you from?
Dunno. Pretty sure I'm about to be OHWG. Not very active right now unfortunately.
oh ok, Because at the GACAC conference I am the only lieutenant besides one.
Quote from: JArvey on December 10, 2010, 09:25:37 PM
oh ok, Because at the GACAC conference I am the only lieutenant besides one.
Yes, that's a long drive.
I also had a JROTC Regional Drill Meet that day, and got a trophy with my team... Priorities.
Quote from: DakRadz on December 10, 2010, 10:50:41 PM
Quote from: JArvey on December 10, 2010, 09:25:37 PM
oh ok, Because at the GACAC conference I am the only lieutenant besides one.
Yes, that's a long drive.
I also had a JROTC Regional Drill Meet that day, and got a trophy with my team... Priorities.
Oh, what squadron are you with? And congratulations on the trophy.
Quote from: JArvey on December 12, 2010, 01:26:57 AM
Quote from: DakRadz on December 10, 2010, 10:50:41 PM
Quote from: JArvey on December 10, 2010, 09:25:37 PM
oh ok, Because at the GACAC conference I am the only lieutenant besides one.
Yes, that's a long drive.
I also had a JROTC Regional Drill Meet that day, and got a trophy with my team... Priorities.
Oh, what squadron are you with? And congratulations on the trophy.
As I said in another thread in response to the same question....
I don't have a squadron right now. Probably soon to be in OHWG due to a move. So.
Go ABU's.
QuoteGo ABU's.
considering your from my unit, with a huge trailer full of ABU's i don't know where you get the idea ABU's will be happening as long as that trailer has a single blouse in it...
Quote from: SABRE17 on December 15, 2010, 11:51:39 PM
QuoteGo ABU's.
considering your from my unit, with a huge trailer full of ABU's i don't know where you get the idea ABU's will be happening as long as that trailer has a single blouse in it...
HUH? Why if you have a trailer full of ABUs would you not go into ABUs?
wow fail... not enough coffee, trailer full of BDU's
Ah, gotcha.
Lol I couldn't understand that either.
Quote from: DakRadz on December 02, 2010, 10:16:30 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on December 02, 2010, 10:13:31 PM
Well, it IS still about uniforms and changes the AF may or may not make to such uniforms, so it hasn't wandered as much as some do!
And if these Service Dress options had been put into effect, the likely outcome is we would have phased them in. Seems that they are no longer being considered, but it was still relevant.
Why dont they just go back to this version of the Air Force uniform? Was this the version that was in the 1990s?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v347/Valeron/USAirForce/DF-SC-82-06566_Bush_hostages_Iran_crop2.jpg)
Quote from: BradM on December 16, 2010, 02:46:21 AM
Why dont they just go back to this version of the Air Force uniform? Was this the version that was in the 1990s?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v347/Valeron/USAirForce/DF-SC-82-06566_Bush_hostages_Iran_crop2.jpg)
That was the version replaced in the '90's. It was used for decades prior. There was attempt a few years ago to replace the current uniform with something similar, but it didn't pan out.
Quote from: Hawk200 on December 16, 2010, 03:40:57 AM
Quote from: BradM on December 16, 2010, 02:46:21 AM
Why dont they just go back to this version of the Air Force uniform? Was this the version that was in the 1990s?
That was the version replaced in the '90's. It was used for decades prior. There was attempt a few years ago to replace the current uniform with something similar, but it didn't pan out.
I like this uniform better that the two heritage ones they were considering. Next would be the Hap Arnold heritage uniform, or even the 1950s uniform with the lighter shade of blue like the one Robert Mitchem wore in the move
The Hunters(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v347/Valeron/USAirForce/robertmitchum_thehunters1.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v347/Valeron/USAirForce/robertmitchum_thehunters2.jpg)
What is the blue shade number for this uniform?
Ahh Sgt Bowles. Its C/Ab Austin DeGregorio. Got bored and decided to find a place to talk about CAP stuff. ABU's are awesome IMO No more ironing and polishing. Some cadets in our squadron can't get the BDU's right and I think the ABU's would be a clean slate for them, since they are built for what all most everyone does, wash and wear. If anyone F's them up I'd be surprised, but I'm assured someone if CAP gets them will fail miseably.
Quote from: Littleguy on December 16, 2010, 08:07:56 PM
Ahh Sgt Bowles. Its C/Ab Austin DeGregorio. Got bored and decided to find a place to talk about CAP stuff. ABU's are awesome IMO No more ironing and polishing. Some cadets in our squadron can't get the BDU's right and I think the ABU's would be a clean slate for them, since they are built for what all most everyone does, wash and wear. If anyone F's them up I'd be surprised, but I'm assured someone if CAP gets them will fail miseably.
??????????
QuoteAhh Sgt Bowles. Its C/Ab Austin DeGregorio. Got bored and decided to find a place to talk about CAP stuff. ABU's are awesome IMO No more ironing and polishing. Some cadets in our squadron can't get the BDU's right and I think the ABU's would be a clean slate for them, since they are built for what all most everyone does, wash and wear. If anyone F's them up I'd be surprised, but I'm assured someone if CAP gets them will fail miseably.
PM sent
Quote from: cap235629 on December 16, 2010, 08:55:39 PM??????????
He's talking to the other person from the same unit about the trailer full of uniforms.. unfortunately the slightly immature structure and apparent lack of understanding before moving ones fingers across the keyboard is going to lend a lot of credibility to their viewpoint .. not.
Like I've said on other topics, I have lately been in a fog and I didn't act the way I should. Please forgive me.
Quote from: Littleguy on December 17, 2010, 01:20:36 AM
Like I've said on other topics, I have lately been in a fog and I didn't act the way I should. Please forgive me.
I think we can put that behind us. Just don't do it again. ;)
Thanks!
Quote from: BradM on December 16, 2010, 07:58:30 PMWhat is the blue shade number for this uniform?
Shade 84, later 1084. They are distinguished from the later shade 1549/1577/1608 uniforms by the 'Captain Kangaroo' lower pockets. (The 1549 and later service dress jackets do not have the lower pockets but kept the pocket flaps.)
The current service dress jacket shade is 1620. They did have a 1625 polyester jacket but that has since been phased out. (The trousers are still used.)
An excellent website detailing the history of the USAF uniform can be found at http://usafflagranks.com/index.html .
A random thought occurred to me today while shopping for a new pair of combat boots. People gripe about the cost of the sage green boots, and wonder how the ABUs will be made CAP distinctive; why not wear the cheaper and much more widely available tan boots?
Its a noticeable difference, and would solve both the issues of finding good black boots anymore, and the excessive price tag attached to the sage ones.
The tan boots actually look pretty horrible with ABUs. They clash, even more so than the ultra-marine blue nametapes.
Am I the only one with the crazy notion that green boots look good on the ACU's and tan boots look good on the ABU's? :-X
I'd say yes and no. I think that it should be interchangable. I love the Sage Green boots, but thats because it is a USAF thing. Tan also looks awesome with the ABU's. Sadly, they are opting out the Tans for the ABU's for good, so we can kiss then look goodbye. The ACU's would be more effective if they used Sage green in greener area's, and Tan in the desert. If we got them, CAPM-39-1 should allow them to be interchangable.
Quote from: DC on December 18, 2010, 10:59:09 PM
A random thought occurred to me today while shopping for a new pair of combat boots. People gripe about the cost of the sage green boots, and wonder how the ABUs will be made CAP distinctive; why not wear the cheaper and much more widely available tan boots?
Its a noticeable difference, and would solve both the issues of finding good black boots anymore, and the excessive price tag attached to the sage ones.
Wearing black boots with the ABU would make it CAP distinctive too. And at a lower cost too.
I think it should be only the tan boots. Has anyone seen a pair of sage green boots that look good after being in the field a lot? I know I haven't, but the tan boots with the ACU come clean with an eraser and a rough brush, that will take anything and everything off of the tan boots. So nice and easy.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on December 19, 2010, 03:52:31 AM
I think it should be only the tan boots. Has anyone seen a pair of sage green boots that look good after being in the field a lot? I know I haven't, but the tan boots with the ACU come clean with an eraser and a rough brush, that will take anything and everything off of the tan boots. So nice and easy.
Except when you wear them around aircraft and they get exposed to JP5 and Hydraulic fluid...Then they look like garbage that will never get clean.
I have gotten them clean after things of the sort, I have even gotten them clean after a barrel of feces motor oil and JP8 that was on fire spilled over them.
After reading most of the 15 pages that this thread is so far I found that no one has some hard facts on what is going to happen which is fine. It seems like the Air Force can't make up it's mind right now anyway if its the F-35, a tanker, or a uniform.
I just going to throw in my $0.02 then:
I think that both the Army and the Air Force possibly moving to Multicam would be great. It looks so much better then what they both have now. Plus the uniforms they have don't really act as camo anyway. http://www.multicampattern.com/ (http://www.multicampattern.com/) here is the multicam website. If you haven't seen multicam you should it is very impressive stuff that works in most environments like camo should. check out the website for more info there.
I also feel that since the AF is our parent company that we should look like them. Not only will the Cadets think it's cool but being identifiable, in really any situation, as some one that can provide help because we are wearing AF camo (with blue name tags ;D) is what we want. And it's great PR.
The AF is only issuing Multicam to those conducting operations OTW in Afghanistan. There has been no official release on the AF changing the utility uniform. Like it or not the ABU is here for the time being and for a long time, I get email traffic from not only the CSAF but the but from the CMSAF as well. Not to mention my 1st Sgt and Chief would have put something out. The Army has said that they are issuing Multicam for Afghanistan operations only, and since the AF is joing the Army on some of these operations they dress alike.
Are the ABU boots waterproof? I know that some of them have Gortex made into them but I wasn't sure about all of them. And how are the ABU's bloused into the boot?
Quote from: JArvey on December 19, 2010, 03:11:15 PM
Are the ABU boots waterproof? I know that some of them have Gortex made into them but I wasn't sure about all of them. And how are the ABU's bloused into the boot?
No, they aren't waterproof. The ECWCS rain/cold weather gear exists for wet environments.
They are tucked or bloused with a band, just like BDU pants.
Quote from: TrevDog on December 19, 2010, 07:46:39 AM
I think that both the Army and the Air Force possibly moving to Multicam would be great. It looks so much better then what they both have now. Plus the uniforms they have don't really act as camo anyway. http://www.multicampattern.com/ (http://www.multicampattern.com/) here is the multicam website. If you haven't seen multicam you should it is very impressive stuff that works in most environments like camo should. check out the website for more info there.
The Army also announced that they are dropping ACUs- going for a past approach that the Marines never left. They are looking to have woodland, desert, and other types of uniform. And Multicam is not the automatic winner, it will be a competition. So... Nothing is certain, especially if Multicam loses and the USAF follows through with what the Army wears in Afghanistan.
Quote from: DakRadz on December 19, 2010, 04:25:18 PM
The Army also announced that they are dropping ACUs-
I would be interested in seeing your reference for this.
Quote from: FlyTiger77 on December 20, 2010, 06:34:44 PM
Quote from: DakRadz on December 19, 2010, 04:25:18 PM
The Army also announced that they are dropping ACUs-
I would be interested in seeing your reference for this.
http://www.military.com/news/article/army-launches-program-to-field-new-camo.html
Less than five years after the Army fully outfitted Soldiers with uniforms printed in what it claimed was a single camouflage scheme suitable to all environments, the service launched a new search for a "family" of camo patterns that will help hide troops in deserts, forests and the places in between.
During a meeting with civilian companies interested in pitching their designs Dec. 9, officials from the Program Executive Office Soldier explained that recent tests showed the Army's so-called "universal camouflage pattern" fell "significantly" short of keeping Soldiers hidden compared to other patterns.In February, the Army announced it would field uniforms and issued kit in the so-called "MultiCam" pattern to all Soldiers deploying to Afghanistan or those with more than six months left on their deployment. Officials realized the current UCP made Soldiers stand out against the varied backgrounds of Afghanistan, which can include wooded forests, rocky outcroppings and scrubby deserts -- all in the same patrol.But now the Army brass is prepared to abandon the current pattern in favor of three different uniforms designed for more specific environments. The service wants to see one pattern for wear in woodland or jungle environments, one pattern for desert and arid environments and a so-called "transitional" pattern that could be worn across all environments if needed.
Officials also want a fourth pattern that blends with all three patterns and can be printed on gear such as body armor, magazine pouches and hydration systems so that the service doesn't have to buy the more expensive organizational clothing and individual equipment more than once.
Quote from: Eclipse on December 20, 2010, 07:00:11 PM
Quote from: FlyTiger77 on December 20, 2010, 06:34:44 PM
Quote from: DakRadz on December 19, 2010, 04:25:18 PM
The Army also announced that they are dropping ACUs-
I would be interested in seeing your reference for this.
http://www.military.com/news/article/army-launches-program-to-field-new-camo.html
Less than five years after the Army fully outfitted Soldiers with uniforms printed in what it claimed was a single camouflage scheme suitable to all environments, the service launched a new search for a "family" of camo patterns that will help hide troops in deserts, forests and the places in between.
During a meeting with civilian companies interested in pitching their designs Dec. 9, officials from the Program Executive Office Soldier explained that recent tests showed the Army's so-called "universal camouflage pattern" fell "significantly" short of keeping Soldiers hidden compared to other patterns.
In February, the Army announced it would field uniforms and issued kit in the so-called "MultiCam" pattern to all Soldiers deploying to Afghanistan or those with more than six months left on their deployment. Officials realized the current UCP made Soldiers stand out against the varied backgrounds of Afghanistan, which can include wooded forests, rocky outcroppings and scrubby deserts -- all in the same patrol.
But now the Army brass is prepared to abandon the current pattern in favor of three different uniforms designed for more specific environments. The service wants to see one pattern for wear in woodland or jungle environments, one pattern for desert and arid environments and a so-called "transitional" pattern that could be worn across all environments if needed.
Officials also want a fourth pattern that blends with all three patterns and can be printed on gear such as body armor, magazine pouches and hydration systems so that the service doesn't have to buy the more expensive organizational clothing and individual equipment more than once.
Interesting. But if we lose the ACU and have to go to fight in a gravel pit, what will we wear........?
Gravel!!!!!
Quote from: FlyTiger77 on December 20, 2010, 07:10:23 PM
Interesting. But if we lose the ACU and have to go to fight in a gravel pit, what will we wear........?
HAHAHA...Gravel Pit
If your patrol is in a gravel pit area, you probably would be issued SRU (small rock uniform)
Any of the Military Times is not an official publication and should not be used as a source.
Quote from: abdsp51 on December 21, 2010, 12:20:31 AM
Any of the Military Times is not an official publication and should not be used as a source.
True, but not relevant.
The source was military.com, not the Military Times. If you're going to make a point of naysaying, then read before you respond.
Army.mil runs a little behind on their news releases, it will probably show up there within a month. There's already numerous stories there of the Afghanistan issue.
Quote from: abdsp51 on December 21, 2010, 12:20:31 AM
Any of the Military Times is not an official publication and should not be used as a source.
See above...
Here is another article about the Army testing for new camo for the whole branch. I foresee the Air Force shortly following suit when they realize that their uniform looks just like the Army's. (I guess the Marines and just recently the Navy were right all along one pattern can't cover the earth)
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2010/12/army-new-camo-replacing-acu-121910w/ (http://www.armytimes.com/news/2010/12/army-new-camo-replacing-acu-121910w/)
I just get all of my woodland camo equipment finally turned back in to CIF and get all UCP (ACU) and now there will be a new camo pattern coming out. >:(
Quote from: JK657 on December 26, 2010, 04:24:41 AMI just get all of my woodland camo equipment finally turned back in to CIF and get all UCP (ACU) and now there will be a new camo pattern coming out. >:(
Welcome to the Army.
Now all AF personnel going to Afghanistan will be wearing the Army Combat Uniform, not just those going "outside the wire".
http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2011/02/air-force-replacing-abus-with-army-cammies-022011w/
Trying to keep up with uniform decisions is like this game:
http://www.thepcmanwebsite.com/media/gopher/gopher.shtml
Quote from: RiverAux on February 20, 2011, 03:52:50 PM
Now all AF personnel going to Afghanistan will be wearing the Army Combat Uniform, not just those going "outside the wire".
http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2011/02/air-force-replacing-abus-with-army-cammies-022011w/
ABU's as a seperate uniform will be gone in a calendar year from now. CAP will never see them.
Quote from: RiverAux on February 20, 2011, 03:52:50 PM
Now all AF personnel going to Afghanistan will be wearing the Army Combat Uniform, not just those going "outside the wire".
http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2011/02/air-force-replacing-abus-with-army-cammies-022011w/
As this article describes the uniform, it is not the ACU, it is the multicam. The ACU is a digital pattern of tan and two grays. The pattern mentioned in the article is of tan brown and green, don't think that USAF is going to the ACU, they are going to an Army pattern, but not the ACU. I would prefer the ACU over the ABU, but don't count on getting the ACU, I wouldn't even count on getting the multicam. We are yet to see what the military comes up with to appease DoD who wants to see the whole military, Army, Air Force, Navy and Marines, even the Coast Guard all in one field uniform again.
Quote from: Eclipse on February 20, 2011, 07:01:36 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on February 20, 2011, 03:52:50 PM
Now all AF personnel going to Afghanistan will be wearing the Army Combat Uniform, not just those going "outside the wire".
http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2011/02/air-force-replacing-abus-with-army-cammies-022011w/
ABU's as a seperate uniform will be gone in a calendar year from now. CAP will never see them.
I would think that this means CAP would see them, as an "interim" type uniform due to the AF getting rid of it's ABU stock. Granted, ROTC would most likely get the pick first, but I could see them being made available to CAP in a few years.
I don't see us getting a version of whateve uniform pattern that uses Multicam anytime soon.
Quote from: Eclipse on February 20, 2011, 07:01:36 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on February 20, 2011, 03:52:50 PM
Now all AF personnel going to Afghanistan will be wearing the Army Combat Uniform, not just those going "outside the wire".
http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2011/02/air-force-replacing-abus-with-army-cammies-022011w/
ABU's as a seperate uniform will be gone in a calendar year from now. CAP will never see them.
WTF? Over....
First thing......it will be impossible for the USAF to make the change from ABU to something else in that amount of time.
I lived through 4 uniforms changes in my time in the USAF (OD's to BDU, BDU to slick sleeve BDUs, back to BDUs, and finally BDU to ABUs).
No way can they make the change that fast.
Second....even if they adopt the UCP....it will just be for deployments.......maybe down the road they make it permanant...but we are looking at 5 years not 1 year.
Third....the USAF is just as upset about uniform changes as we are.....not to mention that congress is looking into it as well. With all the spending cuts comming down the road for the DoD......I don't think anyone wants to throw any more money at uniforms unless they really have to.
Either way......it does not eliminate the basic idea that what ever the USAF moves to.....CAP should and will (IMHO) move to as well.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on February 20, 2011, 09:06:19 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on February 20, 2011, 03:52:50 PM
Now all AF personnel going to Afghanistan will be wearing the Army Combat Uniform, not just those going "outside the wire".
http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2011/02/air-force-replacing-abus-with-army-cammies-022011w/
As this article describes the uniform, it is not the ACU, it is the multicam. The ACU is a digital pattern of tan and two grays. The pattern mentioned in the article is of tan brown and green, don't think that USAF is going to the ACU, they are going to an Army pattern, but not the ACU. I would prefer the ACU over the ABU, but don't count on getting the ACU, I wouldn't even count on getting the multicam. We are yet to see what the military comes up with to appease DoD who wants to see the whole military, Army, Air Force, Navy and Marines, even the Coast Guard all in one field uniform again.
Technically, the Multicam uniform is an "Army Combat Uniform." The camo pattern is
Operation Enduring Freedom
Camouflage
Pattern (OCP, or as it's colloquially know Multicam) rather than Universal Camouflage Pattern (or UCP, which is the
current camo print that the most common ACU uses). It gets a little confusing with the terminology.
The Multicam variants are an "Improved ACU." Buttons on the leg pockets instead of Velcro (which was found ineffective), and a few other minor alterations that improve the comfort wear of it. The print isn't actually a designator that makes it a different uniform, although there were a few odd terms that people used that were simply references to different camo patters rather than different uniforms (such as calling desert BDUs DCUs rather than what they were: A BDU in a different camo print). Lot of fun terms that make it tough to get on the same page.
Quote from: Eclipse on February 20, 2011, 07:01:36 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on February 20, 2011, 03:52:50 PM
Now all AF personnel going to Afghanistan will be wearing the Army Combat Uniform, not just those going "outside the wire".
http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2011/02/air-force-replacing-abus-with-army-cammies-022011w/
ABU's as a seperate uniform will be gone in a calendar year from now. CAP will never see them.
Cite please....
Quote from: NCRblues on February 21, 2011, 12:26:50 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 20, 2011, 07:01:36 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on February 20, 2011, 03:52:50 PM
Now all AF personnel going to Afghanistan will be wearing the Army Combat Uniform, not just those going "outside the wire".
http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2011/02/air-force-replacing-abus-with-army-cammies-022011w/
ABU's as a seperate uniform will be gone in a calendar year from now. CAP will never see them.
Cite please....
Can't cite the future, but everyone watching this can see it coming. Bookmark this thread (or the 18 other times I said something similar).
Quote from: Eclipse on February 21, 2011, 03:22:31 AM
Quote from: NCRblues on February 21, 2011, 12:26:50 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 20, 2011, 07:01:36 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on February 20, 2011, 03:52:50 PM
Now all AF personnel going to Afghanistan will be wearing the Army Combat Uniform, not just those going "outside the wire".
http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2011/02/air-force-replacing-abus-with-army-cammies-022011w/
ABU's as a seperate uniform will be gone in a calendar year from now. CAP will never see them.
Cite please....
Can't cite the future, but everyone watching this can see it coming. Bookmark this thread (or the 18 other times I said something similar).
Eclipse, don't feel the need to justify anything...this whole thread is based on speculation anyway. Anyone's guess, educated or not, is viable. Only official documents would solve this...and when that happens we will all know anyway.
Quote from: Hawk200 on February 20, 2011, 11:34:05 PM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on February 20, 2011, 09:06:19 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on February 20, 2011, 03:52:50 PM
Now all AF personnel going to Afghanistan will be wearing the Army Combat Uniform, not just those going "outside the wire".
http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2011/02/air-force-replacing-abus-with-army-cammies-022011w/
As this article describes the uniform, it is not the ACU, it is the multicam. The ACU is a digital pattern of tan and two grays. The pattern mentioned in the article is of tan brown and green, don't think that USAF is going to the ACU, they are going to an Army pattern, but not the ACU. I would prefer the ACU over the ABU, but don't count on getting the ACU, I wouldn't even count on getting the multicam. We are yet to see what the military comes up with to appease DoD who wants to see the whole military, Army, Air Force, Navy and Marines, even the Coast Guard all in one field uniform again.
Technically, the Multicam uniform is an "Army Combat Uniform." The camo pattern is Operation Enduring Freedom Camouflage Pattern (OCP, or as it's colloquially know Multicam) rather than Universal Camouflage Pattern (or UCP, which is the current camo print that the most common ACU uses). It gets a little confusing with the terminology.
The Multicam variants are an "Improved ACU." Buttons on the leg pockets instead of Velcro (which was found ineffective), and a few other minor alterations that improve the comfort wear of it. The print isn't actually a designator that makes it a different uniform, although there were a few odd terms that people used that were simply references to different camo patters rather than different uniforms (such as calling desert BDUs DCUs rather than what they were: A BDU in a different camo print). Lot of fun terms that make it tough to get on the same page.
The Army doesn't compile the different uniforms into the same categories. BDU is woodland, DCU is dessert, ABU (as the Army knew it) was Arctic Battle Uniform. Just as now, the ACU is the Army Combat Uniform, the three tone digital uniform, and the "multicam" is known as the MPU, the Multi Purpose Uniform. I had to sit through an irritating briefing when they were fielding these uniforms with my brigade in early '05.
At this point no one can complain about a lack of identity within CAP between different types of uniforms. If the real military can't figure it out, it's no wonder we can't.
CAP will undoubtedly get ABU's. No question about that. The USAF, from historical records, doesn't move extremely quick to change a uniform, except for 91-93 airline style Blue's fiasco. The uniform will probably be around, in the USAF, for 6-7 years at least. I forsee CAP following the USAF trend. However, I do believe the USAF might be in for a different, more ACU/MCCUU style, uniform. I actually believe that it is inevitable. We probably will follow suit if that happens. That's my opinion.
If the USAF would go to something "not ABU", what would the point of CAP going ABU be?
It serves no purpose in our operations, and then would not even have parent-service affinity.
Personally, I'm beginning to think that the reason CAP-USAF hasn't approved ABUs for us is that they don't think they're going to be around in the AF long enough for a full-phase in to CAP. I really can't think of any other legitimate reason for holding off on this decision much longer unless you want to go full conspiracy theorist and say that the AF really doesn't want us to match them anymore so are just delaying the time when they come out and say that.
Quote from: Eclipse on February 21, 2011, 08:32:31 PM
If the USAF would go to something "not ABU", what would the point of CAP going ABU be?
It serves no purpose in our operations, and then would not even have parent-service affinity.
Quite probably to meet the demand of CAP that BDUs can't. Lets just face it, BDUs can't hold up to the demand of CAP even now. I can't go to the local surplus store and get a good pair of BDUs, especially not a pair that match each other. Even the used, especially the used BDUs are getting scarce. Those who wore them in the military are now holding on to them for nostalgia because it is no longer an actively used uniform, the ones that are in the surplus stores are being bought up by those who want them for paint ball and air soft. I know I used to say that we can get the BDU rather easily, but that has since changed. I went to get a set earlier this week and couldn't find a single serviceable pair. I even looked through the new stuff, all are made by Proper, and none of the tops match any of the bottoms.
Also it would have parent-service affinity, it is still known as the Airman Battle Uniform.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on February 21, 2011, 08:44:19 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 21, 2011, 08:32:31 PM
If the USAF would go to something "not ABU", what would the point of CAP going ABU be?
It serves no purpose in our operations, and then would not even have parent-service affinity.
Quite probably to meet the demand of CAP that BDUs can't. Lets just face it, BDUs can't hold up to the demand of CAP even now. I can't go to the local surplus store and get a good pair of BDUs, especially not a pair that match each other. Even the used, especially the used BDUs are getting scarce. Those who wore them in the military are now holding on to them for nostalgia because it is no longer an actively used uniform, the ones that are in the surplus stores are being bought up by those who want them for paint ball and air soft. I know I used to say that we can get the BDU rather easily, but that has since changed. I went to get a set earlier this week and couldn't find a single serviceable pair. I even looked through the new stuff, all are made by Proper, and none of the tops match any of the bottoms.
Also it would have parent-service affinity, it is still known as the Airman Battle Uniform.
Haha. Good point. I ran into the saddening problem that I couldn't find a single pair of temperate weight pants that matched my new top. I just ended up using my ripstop bottoms with my temperate weight top since the colors were 100% identical.
ABUs will likely also be expensive as hell, worse than they are now, if the AF abandons them. If they continue to be produced at all, that is.
And people gripe about the cost of decent BDUs now...
I'm just waiting to see what the new DoD Battle Uniform will look like.
With all of the cost cutting going on right now it would be very easy for SecDef Gates to make the case for a single uniform for all of the services.
Just like we had for over 20 years with the BDU.
Quote from: PHall on February 21, 2011, 10:24:17 PM
I'm just waiting to see what the new DoD Battle Uniform will look like.
With all of the cost cutting going on right now it would be very easy for SecDef Gates to make the case for a single uniform for all of the services.
Just like we had for over 20 years with the BDU.
The DoD so far likes the MPU (MultiPurpose Uniform) which is what so many call the multicam. They like it because one color scheme can work for multiple areas of operation, the one currently being issued to USAF that go out of the wire works for woodland and most desert areas. Also because of the ACU cut uniforms that are already being produced they only need to change the material going in to make the ACU and you have everything you need. Just have a few different colors of thread for name and branch tapes, and you are good to go.
www.bdu.com always seems to have BDUs when I need them, as does Vanguard.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on February 21, 2011, 08:44:19 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 21, 2011, 08:32:31 PM
If the USAF would go to something "not ABU", what would the point of CAP going ABU be?
It serves no purpose in our operations, and then would not even have parent-service affinity.
Quite probably to meet the demand of CAP that BDUs can't. Lets just face it, BDUs can't hold up to the demand of CAP even now. I can't go to the local surplus store and get a good pair of BDUs, especially not a pair that match each other. Even the used, especially the used BDUs are getting scarce. Those who wore them in the military are now holding on to them for nostalgia because it is no longer an actively used uniform, the ones that are in the surplus stores are being bought up by those who want them for paint ball and air soft. I know I used to say that we can get the BDU rather easily, but that has since changed. I went to get a set earlier this week and couldn't find a single serviceable pair. I even looked through the new stuff, all are made by Proper, and none of the tops match any of the bottoms.
Also it would have parent-service affinity, it is still known as the Airman Battle Uniform.
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on February 21, 2011, 10:48:05 PM
www.bdu.com always seems to have BDUs when I need them, as does Vanguard.
Yes, Vanguard always has BDUs. The only problem is, the tops and bottoms never match. I have sent back a BDU uniform to them about three times and finally told them to keep them, because they couldn't get them right.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on February 21, 2011, 08:44:19 PMAlso it would have parent-service affinity, it is still known as the Airman Battle Uniform.
It could be called the Hap Arnold Uniform, but of the USAF isn't wearing it, there's no affinity with the parent.
Also there is no shortage or availability issue with BDU's. MCSS may not have them, but most members don't even know what that is, and can't spell AAFES. The sources most members use still have them.
Further, at least in my wing, we have been inundated by literally pallets of BDU's from the services retiring them, so we'll have a supply for years to come for the cadets.
All I know is that when I went to the Clothing Sales at Scott AFB last month, the price of the ABUs was high. I don't remember exact prices but either the pants or the top was well into the $30+ range. If they charged sales tax there, I could almost buy a set of BBDUs from Soldier City for what they charge for one piece of the ABUs.
When my current set of BDUs becomes unserviceable, I will be wearing strictly BBDUs. CAP can change to ABUs or not. I don't care.
Quote from: Eclipse on February 21, 2011, 10:57:55 PM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on February 21, 2011, 08:44:19 PMAlso it would have parent-service affinity, it is still known as the Airman Battle Uniform.
It could be called the Hap Arnold Uniform, but of the USAF isn't wearing it, there's no affinity with the parent.
Also there is no shortage or availability issue with BDU's. MCSS may not have them, but most members don't even know what that is, and can't spell AAFES. The sources most members use still have them.
Further, at least in my wing, we have been inundated by literally pallets of BDU's from the services retiring them, so we'll have a supply for years to come for the cadets.
I live within 3 hours of 4 military bases and the army navy stores dont have ANY new BDU's, and the old ones they have are in horrible condition. It takes a good 30 minutes to find a matching pair that look decent, and ordering them online they never match, and they are 5X more expinsive then they are normally. I would pay the extra for ABUs because they are designed much better, personally I think we should use ACU's because we are in the field more and it is more of a field uniform, but thats not going to happen.
Quote from: JArvey on March 08, 2011, 03:13:16 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 21, 2011, 10:57:55 PM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on February 21, 2011, 08:44:19 PMAlso it would have parent-service affinity, it is still known as the Airman Battle Uniform.
It could be called the Hap Arnold Uniform, but of the USAF isn't wearing it, there's no affinity with the parent.
Also there is no shortage or availability issue with BDU's. MCSS may not have them, but most members don't even know what that is, and can't spell AAFES. The sources most members use still have them.
Further, at least in my wing, we have been inundated by literally pallets of BDU's from the services retiring them, so we'll have a supply for years to come for the cadets.
they are 5X more expinsive then they are normally.
When I joined as a cadet in 2005 BDUs were $25 per piece. Now they're $30 per piece. Hardly a 500% jump.
Quote from: JArvey on March 08, 2011, 03:13:16 AMIt takes a good 30 minutes to find a matching pair that look decent, and ordering them online they never match, and they are 5X more expinsive then they are normally.
Never match what?
BDU.com has them right now for $23.99. You had a source for new, mil-spec, BDU's for $4.79?
No one on this board, or anyone I know personally, has ever had a single price or quality issue with them, and they are just one in the pack.
The last time I went to the military store near me they had plenty of Propper woodland in both new and used.
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on March 08, 2011, 03:24:51 AM
Quote from: JArvey on March 08, 2011, 03:13:16 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 21, 2011, 10:57:55 PM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on February 21, 2011, 08:44:19 PMAlso it would have parent-service affinity, it is still known as the Airman Battle Uniform.
It could be called the Hap Arnold Uniform, but of the USAF isn't wearing it, there's no affinity with the parent.
Also there is no shortage or availability issue with BDU's. MCSS may not have them, but most members don't even know what that is, and can't spell AAFES. The sources most members use still have them.
Further, at least in my wing, we have been inundated by literally pallets of BDU's from the services retiring them, so we'll have a supply for years to come for the cadets.
they are 5X more expinsive then they are normally.
When I joined as a cadet in 2005 BDUs were $25 per piece. Now they're $30 per piece. Hardly a 500% jump.
In 1999, way back in the stone age I know, when I joined, I could get a full set new for $25.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on March 08, 2011, 03:29:04 AM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on March 08, 2011, 03:24:51 AM
Quote from: JArvey on March 08, 2011, 03:13:16 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on February 21, 2011, 10:57:55 PM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on February 21, 2011, 08:44:19 PMAlso it would have parent-service affinity, it is still known as the Airman Battle Uniform.
It could be called the Hap Arnold Uniform, but of the USAF isn't wearing it, there's no affinity with the parent.
Also there is no shortage or availability issue with BDU's. MCSS may not have them, but most members don't even know what that is, and can't spell AAFES. The sources most members use still have them.
Further, at least in my wing, we have been inundated by literally pallets of BDU's from the services retiring them, so we'll have a supply for years to come for the cadets.
they are 5X more expinsive then they are normally.
When I joined as a cadet in 2005 BDUs were $25 per piece. Now they're $30 per piece. Hardly a 500% jump.
In 1999, way back in the stone age I know, when I joined, I could get a full set new for $25.
Fair enough, but the cost is still simply a cost of being a member. It's the same with the Boy Scouts (NSCC and CGAUX too I'm sure). Try taking a CPR/AED/FA Instructor class at Red Cross like I'm doing. You want to talk about expensive, it's $225 for the class at my local chapter before I purchase any identifying apparel. Plus, we're about to change curriculum so if I want the paper version (I want) I'm another $50-$100 down plus renting equipment (a cost which gets passed on to participants, but still expensive).
Volunteering is expensive, especially in a large organization.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on March 08, 2011, 03:29:04 AM
In 1999, way back in the stone age I know, when I joined, I could get a full set new for $25.
One would have to assume that was some sort of special military price at a base exchange, or perhaps a discount, because when I joined in
1998 they were about $50(ish) a set, as evidenced by this page from the 2000 Bookstore catalog. So that the price has actually come
down since then.
(http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/605/bookstore2kbdus.jpg)
By far the vast majority of members have no idea about AAFES, no access or awareness of an MCSS, and until recently thought the Hock was CAP's official supplier. Most ordered their BDU's from an online source (maybe via phone in the early 2000's), or a local military supply.
Further, as mentioned earlier, guard bases all over the country are dumping literally pallet-loads of camo on the waste and secondary markets, my wing
is swimming in camo. There is no shortage unless you go out of your way to make one up.
Military Surplus store, the only place I will ever get a set of field uniforms. In person is the only place that you can ensure that your top and bottoms will match in color. In the past year, I have ordered from VG, and have sent the uniform back and asked for my money back because the uniform they sent was unacceptable, they didn't match in the slightest. So I went to the local surplus, and found a pair that was brand new, that was already separated by color, and they matched almost perfectly. However, now, there is no getting a good matching set from there any more. And I will never go back to VG for anything I don't absolutely have to. The only thing I order from them, is CAP ranks, and ribbons, and patches, and I must say I am not fond of their work with them either, I got a U.S. cutout from them, and as soon as I tried to put it on my uniform one of the prongs broke, so I broke out the JB weld and threw it on top of the stove just over the pilot light over night so it would be set for the next day, then that next day, the other one broke off as well. Their work is shoddy and I can't stand their attention to detail either. Have you read the command badge? It still says C.A.P. under the prop, and the scroll still says U.S. Air Force Auxiliary.
I haven't had too much luck with other companies either. I can't order BDUs from AAFES anymore, they don't carry them, or atleast that is the story I always get from them. I trust Ranger Joe's about as much as I do VG. And U.S. Cav, when I call and ask for BDUs, they ask what pattern, I say woodland, and they ask MPU? And I say, no, not multicam, old style Army BDUs, I'm sorry sir, we don't carry those anymore.
^And in all that you haven't mentioned buying them from the one source repeatedly recommended here and elsewhere.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 08, 2011, 04:22:53 AM
^And in all that you haven't mentioned buying them from the one source repeatedly recommended here and elsewhere.
Remind me please, what is that source?
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on March 08, 2011, 04:24:29 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 08, 2011, 04:22:53 AM
^And in all that you haven't mentioned buying them from the one source repeatedly recommended here and elsewhere.
Remind me please, what is that source?
BDU.COM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 08, 2011, 04:28:25 AM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on March 08, 2011, 04:24:29 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 08, 2011, 04:22:53 AM
^And in all that you haven't mentioned buying them from the one source repeatedly recommended here and elsewhere.
Remind me please, what is that source?
BDU.COM
I will give them a try.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 08, 2011, 03:26:52 AM
Quote from: JArvey on March 08, 2011, 03:13:16 AMIt takes a good 30 minutes to find a matching pair that look decent, and ordering them online they never match, and they are 5X more expinsive then they are normally.
Never match what?
BDU.com has them right now for $23.99. You had a source for new, mil-spec, BDU's for $4.79?
No one on this board, or anyone I know personally, has ever had a single price or quality issue with them, and they are just one in the pack.
The last time I went to the military store near me they had plenty of Propper woodland in both new and used.
I know multiple people that have had problems with only finding summer weight BDU's and not winter weight BDU's, and thats nice that they have them for you, but they dont for us
Quote from: JArvey on March 10, 2011, 01:50:51 AM
I know multiple people that have had problems with only finding summer weight BDU's and not winter weight BDU's, and thats nice that they have them for you, but they dont for us
Us?
Quote from: Eclipse on March 10, 2011, 02:24:39 AM
Quote from: JArvey on March 10, 2011, 01:50:51 AM
I know multiple people that have had problems with only finding summer weight BDU's and not winter weight BDU's, and thats nice that they have them for you, but they dont for us
Us?
Them?
Indefinite pronouns are useless without some association to noun.
JArvey is saying some group that he is a part of is discriminated against regarding uniforms.
I want to know who "us" is, and how he believes that is true.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 10, 2011, 03:40:03 AM
JArvey is saying some group that he is a part of is discriminated against regarding uniforms.
I want to know who "us" is, and how he believes that is true.
I would love to provide for every cadet everything they need, and try, but I can only get them what I can get them. If there are BDUs we have come across, we can issue them. If these are not any, I cannot "miracle" them into existence. "When can I get a service coat?" I am often asked..."When there is one to issue you!" I answer.
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on March 08, 2011, 04:19:28 AMAnd U.S. Cav, when I call and ask for BDUs, they ask what pattern, I say woodland, and they ask MPU? And I say, no, not multicam, old style Army BDUs, I'm sorry sir, we don't carry those anymore.
I just checked the US Cavalry Store website. They have Tru Spec Woodland BDUs for about $60/set.
My source (http://www.militaryclothing.com) lists them as well. In fact, the poly/cotton twill (AKA winter weight) shirts are on sale right now, limited sizes for $9.95.
Quote from: PA Guy on March 10, 2011, 07:29:52 AM
Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on March 08, 2011, 04:19:28 AMAnd U.S. Cav, when I call and ask for BDUs, they ask what pattern, I say woodland, and they ask MPU? And I say, no, not multicam, old style Army BDUs, I'm sorry sir, we don't carry those anymore.
I just checked the US Cavalry Store website. They have Tru Spec Woodland BDUs for about $60/set.
I love those TruSpec woodlands... they are hot weather BDU's and perfect here in CA. I'm on my second set in three years from them. Only trouble I have with ordering is that my size sometimes requires special order. They have the reg sizes but Talls are might have to wait.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 10, 2011, 03:40:03 AM
JArvey is saying some group that he is a part of is discriminated against regarding uniforms.
I want to know who "us" is, and how he believes that is true.
The area around where we (all cap members around my general area) live
Quote from: JArvey on March 11, 2011, 12:19:06 AM
The area around where we (all cap members around my general area) live
Which is serviced in exactly the same way as every other unit in the country - you are fully capable of obtaining the same, high-quality, properly-priced
uniforms as every other unit in CAP.
Those who randomly happen to have an MCSS or military store nearby are the
exception, not the norm. I live near metro Chicago and there never been more than a handful of retail stores that sell BDU's or other uniform parts, and today there are probably two, total. Even Scott, which is the nearest USAF base, has a tiny BX and rarely had/has much CAP members can use.
If up until this point you were able to walk into a nearby store and hand-pick your uniforms, consider yourself lucky, and now you're in the club with the rest of us.
The bottom line is that there are hundreds, if not thousands of sources for BDU's online, many wings are now swimming in them because of generous DRMO's dumping them on the waste and secondary markets, and the sources most members have always used are status quo.
If through some poor alignment of the stars you get parts that don't match, send them back, but don't posture that is the norm, or try and
insinuate there is a great emergency regarding BDU's.
There.
Isn't.
For all concerned, when you order from LACKLAND AFB MCSS ,They still have BDU'S in stock for the next year. PM me if you want the details for how CAP can place phone orders with them. I have verfied this with the manger of MCSS.
TAKE CARE
FWIW - I just left the NAVEx at Great Lakes. Between my office and the store I saw a number of recruits Seamen in shiny new woodland BDU's (SeaBees?).
Lots of NWU and NSU.
On the way in I passed one Marine in MARPAT, and about 4-5 NCO's in desert MARPAT.
In the store they had ACU's, NWU's, and one lonely desert MARPAT shirt. No woodland, but then they haven't had woodland there for at least a year.
I don't know of any reason for recruits wearing woodland BDUs. Not all new Seabees (one word) are ID'd as such prior to boot camp. When I went through, and my neighbor's kid (now a CM2) went through, the UOD for all recruits was the same, blue stuff.
Sorry, incorrect nomenclature. I am on the NTC right now so the majority are Seaman or higher (recruits are on the RTC where we hold the encampment).
Uniforms for all recruits now are the NWU and NSU. No more utilities.
Ok so the point is that we are going to run out of NEW BDUs within the next 5 years, and my friend from a different squadron lives a hour and a half away from a very small army navy store, 2 hours away from a big one and he has no internet to order them online.
Quote from: JArvey on March 17, 2011, 11:02:39 PM
Ok so the point is that we are going to run out of NEW BDUs within the next 5 years, and my friend from a different squadron lives a hour and a half away from a very small army navy store, 2 hours away from a big one and he has no internet to order them online.
Then I guess in 5 years he's out of luck - which would be the time to worry about it, not now.
And "we" aren't going to run out of BDUs, only people who are so devoid of resources that they cannot find internet, a phone, or someone else to help them will have issues.
True, but we do not want to procastinate to much, im not saying we should get them now or even next year. But after that we need to atleast start a transition
Boy Scouts
--------------
Boyscouts: "Order your Boy Scout uniforms from this location, we don't keep any in stock."
Parents: "Ok, I'll order them."
CAP
--------------
CAP: "Order your uniforms from this location, we don't keep any in stock."
Parents: "What do you mean you don't have any for free, in a huge supply room?"
I still don't know how we end up acting like we're some sort of discount uniform retailer who's obligation it is to source free used uniforms from everywhere on the planet, as though they are our sole source. Most cadets aren't as "poor" as they make themselves out to be. Most still seem to have Nintendo DS, XBox, IPods, IPhones, and wear Abercrombie clothing. It's about priorities, most of the time. I tell parents straight up that initial membership fee is meager, but expect to spend a few hundred dollars on uniform items in the next few years. I haven't had anyone complain yet.
Even then, there are units like mine (and every other one I've ever been a member of) that can outfit 200+ cadets in blues and BDUs (minus shoes). Considering that most units are under 10 cadets, I can't imagine that there is a run on the supply...
We have used uniforms, but we throw A LOT of them away when they're donated. If there's holes, tears, overly faded, buttons missing, starched beyond recognition, ring around the collar, etc - they get thrown away. Just because they're used doesn't mean that they need to look like it.
Long story short, when the "free stock" dries up, our members will just do what every other organization on the planet does - order new BDUs from "suggested" vendor that NHQ makes an arrangement with.
Just checking back...Have ya all broken any new ground in the last 12 pages?
How many factories still make BDU's?
So then that means that there are 4,325 possible factories, of which 1,427 are the real deal. ;)
Interesting side note on this topic: Today I was at the commissary getting my government subsidized shopping on when I saw an AFJROTC cadet in ABUs. Tapes were all ABU colored and had his name on one side and US Air Force on the other. The only way I knew he was a cadet was that he had Cadet 1st Lieutenant insignia pinned to his collar points.
Quote from: JK657 on March 19, 2011, 03:12:37 AM
Interesting side note on this topic: Today I was at the commissary getting my government subsidized shopping on when I saw an AFJROTC cadet in ABUs. Tapes were all ABU colored and had his name on one side and US Air Force on the other. The only way I knew he was a cadet was that he had Cadet 1st Lieutenant insignia pinned to his collar points.
The thing about that, and the Sea Cadets, is there is no senior program - the "participants" are all cadets, and the leaders are all military.
There's also no operational component, so the likelyhood of being seen in public is slim.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 19, 2011, 03:15:41 AM
The thing about that, and the Sea Cadets, is there is no senior program - the "participants" are all cadets, and the leaders are all military.
Untrue on the Sea Cadets. The adult leaders are volunteers, just as we are.
http://www.seacadets.org/public/officer/
(http://www.navyleague.org/public_relations/Feb09/020209-Spokane-Council-Sea-Cadet-Awards-recipients.jpg)
Cadets in back, adult leaders in front...not sure what the AF TSgt is doing there...
AFJROTC leaders are Air Force personnel, retired I believe.
I hadn't known that AFJROTC cadets wear ABU's with USAF tapes.
Kind of reinforces our "red-haired stepchild" status, doesn't it? ::)
Could he have been AFROTC, not JROTC?
Quote from: CyBorg on March 19, 2011, 03:30:09 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 19, 2011, 03:15:41 AM
The thing about that, and the Sea Cadets, is there is no senior program - the "participants" are all cadets, and the leaders are all military.
Untrue on the Sea Cadets. The adult leaders are volunteers, just as we are.
True enough, but they are still there for the cadets, not themselves, and with no operational role, little chance to ever
be confused with regular Navy anywhere it matters, which seems to be the main heartburn with CAP and the USAF.
As to the "confusion" between us and the USAF...
I wonder how much of that is perceived and how much is actual.
Even when wearing completely non-AF orders of dress, there is still an Air Force component.
The seal on the polos says "United States Air Force Auxiliary."
The grey nameplate used on both the AF and G/W has the same wording.
It could be very easy for the uninformed or the merely thick to still make the confusion/connection.
Ironically, it was the original CSU which had NO mention of the AF anywhere.
A former pastor of mine had a favourite saying: "Who owns the problem?"
In this case, when someone chooses to be uneducated about us, and thinks we're the "Air Force," who owns the problem?
Quote from: BTCS1* on March 19, 2011, 03:38:39 AM
Could he have been AFROTC, not JROTC?
No, AFROTC and AFJROTC have very different rank insignia
Quote from: JK657 on March 19, 2011, 06:09:13 AM
Quote from: BTCS1* on March 19, 2011, 03:38:39 AM
Could he have been AFROTC, not JROTC?
No, AFROTC and AFJROTC have very different rank insignia
I think this was a college cadet. AFROTC C/3rd Class & C/4th Class wear identical rank on BDUs as AFJROTC C/2nd Lt & C/1st Lt.
http://www.jrotchq.com/usaf/rank.php
Quote from: Ed Bos on March 19, 2011, 09:17:23 AM
Quote from: JK657 on March 19, 2011, 06:09:13 AM
Quote from: BTCS1* on March 19, 2011, 03:38:39 AM
Could he have been AFROTC, not JROTC?
No, AFROTC and AFJROTC have very different rank insignia
I think this was a college cadet. AFROTC C/3rd Class & C/4th Class wear identical rank on BDUs as AFJROTC C/2nd Lt & C/1st Lt.
http://www.jrotchq.com/usaf/rank.php
Now thats a possibility... I was unaware of the C/3rd and 4th class insignia. When I was in the wore different insignia. We don't see many AFROTC around here but tons of AFJROTC.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 19, 2011, 03:42:42 AM
Quote from: CyBorg on March 19, 2011, 03:30:09 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 19, 2011, 03:15:41 AM
The thing about that, and the Sea Cadets, is there is no senior program - the "participants" are all cadets, and the leaders are all military.
Untrue on the Sea Cadets. The adult leaders are volunteers, just as we are.
True enough, but they are still there for the cadets, not themselves, and with no operational role, little chance to ever
be confused with regular Navy anywhere it matters, which seems to be the main heartburn with CAP and the USAF.
Back when I was a Sea Cadet we had a mixture of Navy officers and NSCC officers as leaders. Both accompanied us on 2 week cruises on operational vessels. Although the NSCC officers had no operational role other than keeping us in line, it would have been easy to confuse them with real Navy officers. Especially in the khakis. For whatever reason the Navy seemed to be OK with that. The Air Force simply takes a different view.
Perhaps the Navy is less concerned since NOAA and U.S. Public Health Service already wear nearly identical uniforms. What's one more group going to hurt?
One would think the Air Force would be OK with CAP wearing an obvious shoulder patch, like NSCC does. That would stand out more than grey shoulder marks. BTW, NSCC also requires their members to maintain height/weight standards to wear the modified Navy uniform.
FWIW, NSCC Adult leaders are also required to maintain US Navy weight standards to wear the Navy uniform. For adult members who do not meet weight requirements, there is an alternate civilian-style (polo shirt and khaki trousers) uniform that they may wear. From what I've seen, NSCC does not have a 10% allowance, as CAP does, either. Either you make the weight, or you don't. Perhaps they have as much complaining about this standard, but not being plugged in with that organization, I wouldn't care to speculate.
Quote from: BGNightfall on March 20, 2011, 04:21:00 AM
FWIW, NSCC Adult leaders are also required to maintain US Navy weight standards to wear the Navy uniform. For adult members who do not meet weight requirements, there is an alternate civilian-style (polo shirt and khaki trousers) uniform that they may wear. From what I've seen, NSCC does not have a 10% allowance, as CAP does, either. Either you make the weight, or you don't. Perhaps they have as much complaining about this standard, but not being plugged in with that organization, I wouldn't care to speculate.
But what's their facial hair policy?
Quote from: BGNightfall on March 20, 2011, 04:21:00 AM
FWIW, NSCC Adult leaders are also required to maintain US Navy weight standards to wear the Navy uniform.
Indeed?
(http://www.freewebs.com/michiganmountaineers/spencer%20f%20baird%20christining%20ceremony%20034.jpg)
(http://www.lahontanvalleynews.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=LF&Date=20090509&Category=NEWS&ArtNo=905099987&Ref=AR&MaxW=550&title=1)
@Cyborg. Indeed. I'm sure any number of individuals could drag out images of CAP members improperly wearing the USAF uniform despite being outside of weight limits. I'm sure that all of us on these boards would point to that as a leadership failure, not a failure in the regulation per se.
@SarDragon. Beards are permissible by waiver only from NSCC National Headquarters. I'll grant that this is at least a step above CAP NHQ, which makes no such distinction (even though our parent service does).
Quote from: wuzafuzz on March 20, 2011, 04:00:25 AM
Perhaps the Navy is less concerned since NOAA and U.S. Public Health Service already wear nearly identical uniforms. What's one more group going to hurt?
Not to mention State Naval Militias.
(http://dmna.state.ny.us/nynm/graphics/tucker_small.jpg)
Only the pocket device identifies this officer as a member of the New York Naval Militia.
Quote from: wuzafuzz on March 20, 2011, 04:00:25 AM
One would think the Air Force would be OK with CAP wearing an obvious shoulder patch, like NSCC does. That would stand out more than grey shoulder marks.
Like these?
(http://www.incountry.us/cappatches/CRESTS/thumbs/~jacket.jpg)
(http://www.incountry.us/cappatches/CRESTS/thumbs/~blazer1.gif)
(http://www.incountry.us/cappatches/CRESTS/thumbs/~lgseal2.jpg)
(http://www.incountry.us/cappatches/CRESTS/thumbs/~natusarc.jpg)
(Who knows, even Radioman may like the last one, since it is red.)
Let's not start the junk about posting pics of people and height and weight. Unless you have a scale, a measuring stick and proof it is best to just shut up about it.
It is unbecoming, in addition, to post pictures of people for the purpose if ridicule especially since they cannot defend them self.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 18, 2011, 02:41:56 AM
Quote from: JArvey on March 18, 2011, 02:41:04 AM
How many factories still make BDU's?
1,427
Talked to an AF officer this weekend, he said the AF reserves wear them untill october but they are not currently making any new BDUs for the AF. China does make a type of BDUs
Quote from: wuzafuzz on March 20, 2011, 04:00:25 AM
One would think the Air Force would be OK with CAP wearing an obvious shoulder patch, like NSCC does. That would stand out more than grey shoulder marks.
Like these?
(http://www.incountry.us/cappatches/CRESTS/thumbs/~jacket.jpg)
(http://www.incountry.us/cappatches/CRESTS/thumbs/~blazer1.gif)
(http://www.incountry.us/cappatches/CRESTS/thumbs/~lgseal2.jpg)
(http://www.incountry.us/cappatches/CRESTS/thumbs/~natusarc.jpg)
(Who knows, even Radioman may like the last one, since it is red.)
[/quote]
Exactly. Everyone wearing the same patch, instead of various wing patches like we used to wear. That would be distinctive enough that anyone with eyesight adequate to legally drive can distinguish CAP from AF in "low-light."
I'm not suggesting there is a big need, since grey epaulets on service dress and ultramarine cloth on BDU tapes/badges is plenty distinctive. They look goofy but they are plenty distinctive IMHO.
Quote from: JArvey on March 20, 2011, 11:11:02 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 18, 2011, 02:41:56 AM
Quote from: JArvey on March 18, 2011, 02:41:04 AM
How many factories still make BDU's?
1,427
Talked to an AF officer this weekend, he said the AF reserves wear them untill october but they are not currently making any new BDUs for the AF. China does make a type of BDUs
Who is "they"?
"China" as in the governmental organization known as the "People's Republic of China", may, in fact, not be producing BDU's, but I can guarantee you
there are plenty of factories in that country and other PAC-Rim nations which are. Maylasia, for example. Also, we (as in the US), are not the only country wearing woodland camo.
There's plenty out there. Google shopping pops 5,300 results alone.
Quote from: Eclipse on March 21, 2011, 02:26:17 PM
Quote from: JArvey on March 20, 2011, 11:11:02 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 18, 2011, 02:41:56 AM
Quote from: JArvey on March 18, 2011, 02:41:04 AM
How many factories still make BDU's?
1,427
Talked to an AF officer this weekend, he said the AF reserves wear them untill october but they are not currently making any new BDUs for the AF. China does make a type of BDUs
Who is "they"?
"China" as in the governmental organization known as the "People's Republic of China", may, in fact, not be producing BDU's, but I can guarantee you
there are plenty of factories in that country and other PAC-Rim nations which are. Maylasia, for example. Also, we (as in the US), are not the only country wearing woodland camo.
There's plenty out there. Google shopping pops 5,300 results alone.
He said the AF only uses BDUs produced in the US, and where did you get the number 1,427 factories?
Quote from: JArvey on March 22, 2011, 11:04:10 AMHe said the AF only uses BDUs produced in the US,
That's fine, but irrelevant to CAP.
We.
Aren't
In.
The.
Air Force.
So where the do, or do not, get their uniforms is only anecdotally interesting...
Quote from: JArvey on March 22, 2011, 11:04:10 AMand where did you get the number 1,427 factories?
OK. Seriously? Owing to your status, I should be more clear with the [smartypants answer] tags.
I obviously made it up to make a point.
We need our own BDU'besides the blue, tan or grey >:D
(http://www.militaryclothing.com//ImgUpload/P_198793_1758847.JPG)
This distinct enough?
You have to wonder how much they paid that guy to be photographed wearing that... :o
Perfect for out here in California