Honor Guard Academy 2013?

Started by Майор Хаткевич, December 05, 2012, 06:11:32 AM

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Eclipse

Quote from: the chief on December 07, 2012, 08:15:02 AM
....I do not have a problem with parents/cadets contacting National if they are willing to help solve the problem.

That's very nice.

It's also not your call.  There are processes and procedures for this kind of thing, not to mention that it is more then a little
insulting to those involved to insinuate the decisions were made lightly, or that a letter-writing campaign is going to change what are most
likely hard-fast realities about why it was cancelled.

Quote from: the chief on December 07, 2012, 08:15:02 AMI suggest contacting National to let them know there are cadets that want HGA and want to help find a way to keep it going.

Do you honestly believe they don't already know that?

Quote from: Pylon on December 07, 2012, 03:55:19 PMAlso, complaining on Facebook instead of asking your chain of command for additional details and then accepting the answer only makes your group look immature.

Seriously - what's next?  Occupy HGA?

"That Others May Zoom"

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Eclipse on December 07, 2012, 04:01:03 PM
Seriously - what's next?  Occupy HGA?

It worked in Taps....though they had real rifles.

the chief

This is a very negative board.  Is this how you teach cadets to change things in life? To sit around complaining or to speak up and request a change.
In no way have I asked random people to call National and complain. I have asked cadets and parents that want the program to continue to call/write/email to let National know that HGA is an activity that many of us think is important.
I have asked the cadets/parents to be a part of the solution of cost by donating money/gift cards/be willing to pay more for the academy.
They can talk to their squadron commander, wing commander, whomever they think will pass the info on up to National...and we are not DEMANDING that National change their mind about HGA we are asking what WE can do to make it happen.


Eclipse

#43
Quote from: the chief on December 07, 2012, 10:23:53 PM
This is a very negative board.  Is this how you teach cadets to change things in life? To sit around complaining or to speak up and request a change.
As a Chief, you should understand the term "chain of command" better, and perhaps trust your superiors more.

Quote from: the chief on December 07, 2012, 10:23:53 PM
In no way have I asked random people to call National and complain.
That's exactly what you've done, the fact that you don't understand that is part of the problem.  Anyone in a position of understanding
or influence in this regard has already plead their case to the CP folks at NHQ and were unsuccessful, for what is likely a variety of reasons
beyond cost.

Quote from: the chief on December 07, 2012, 10:23:53 PM
. I have asked cadets and parents that want the program to continue to call/write/email to let National know that HGA is an activity that many of us think is important.
Again, do you believe that NHQ doesn't already know the impact cancelling an NCSA will have?

"That Others May Zoom"

the chief

Have you heard of Billy Mitchell?

The 2nd phase of a cadet's career has the final achievement as the Billy Mitchell Award.

Here is the story of Billy Mitchell taken from the Learn To Lead Series, Book 1. If we are not supposed to take a part in changing the things we don't agree with, why is he given the honor of having one of our cadet awards named after him?

CASE HISTORY: BRIGADIER GENERAL BILLY MITCHELL
As one of the best combat airmen of WWI, Billy Mitchell knew the
airplane represented the future. It was a breakthrough technology
that would change the world. But Army and Navy officers were less
imaginative in their thinking. They saw the young airplane serving
only in supporting roles, like reconnaissance.
Mitchell had to show the establishment that his vision was right
and their thinking was shortsighted. To prove his point, Mitchell
staged a demonstration. He bombed the captured
German battleship Ostfriesland, sinking her. Still, most
officers did not see the airplane as the fearsome new
weapon of the future.
Mitchell continued to imagine a future where the airplane
dominates the battle. Seventeen years before Pearl
Harbor, he was warning that Japan could use carrierbased
airplanes to attack Hawaii. Few listened.
Furious at his leaders' lack of foresight, Mitchell famously
charged, "The Army and Navy are guilty of incompetence,
criminal negligence and an almost treasonable administration
of the national defense." He said non-flying officers
knew next to nothing about airpower and yet were
directing its course. His vision called for creating an independent
air force that would not be subject to the Army or Navy.
Eventually, military leaders grew tired of Mitchell publicly accusing
them of being idiots. He was court-martialed and dismissed from
the Army.
But twenty years later, at the end ofWWII, Billy
Mitchell's vision of the airplane being the new king
of battle was proven correct. Citing his "outstanding
pioneer service and foresight," Congress finally
acknowledged the wisdom in his vision for airpower,
posthumously awarding him a Medal of Honor.

Eclipse

#45
Quote from: the chief on December 08, 2012, 12:29:14 AM
Have you heard of Billy Mitchell?

Yes, and an outstanding example to use in this case.

Quote from: the chief on December 08, 2012, 12:29:14 AM
Eventually, military leaders grew tired of Mitchell publicly accusing
them of being idiots. He was court-martialed and dismissed from
the Army.
Pursuit of a worthy cause in an inappropriate manner can sometimes do more harm then good.

"That Others May Zoom"

Extremepredjudice

I'm in stitches.

Dude, good enthusiasm, bad execution.

Especially for a military organization.
I love the moderators here. <3

Hanlon's Razor
Occam's Razor
"Flight make chant; I good leader"

a2capt

Like magic - Misdirected complaining, will make it all better!


Yeah!



Pylon

#48
Chief,


Billy Mitchell lost his entire career, and was stripped of his rank and booted from the military entirely for his irregular and disrespectful pursuit of air power.  Billy Mitchell picked a penultimate and service-wide changing issue and was prepared to fall on his sword (accept the full consequences) over it because he thought it was that important.


Is this issue (one year of not having one NCSA) so incredibly important to you (and one that you think will have wide-ranging impact on CAP) that you're prepared to risk and potentially lose your credibility, respect, your grade, or worse in pursuit of something that can literally not be changed for this year?  Is that a wise use of all your "political capital"? 


Surely, Billy Mitchell is not included in our curriculum for no reason.  However, he most certainly didn't behave contrary to authority his entire career and he didn't go around his chain-of-command every single time he disagreed with or disliked something.  And when he finally decided to use what "political capital" he had, he was already a Colonel or Brigadier General in the Armed Forces with a long, decorated career to back him up.  I wouldn't put myself on any sort of level to compare with that myself, so I wouldn't recommend trying to follow in his footsteps for this matter for yourself either.
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

Texas Raiders

A quick bit of research yields 9 major military bases in the state of Maryland.  I don't know if anyone from the HGA has entertained the thought of reaching out to any of these installations, but it wouldn't hurt.  These bases will have the required infrastructure, such as barracks, messing facilities, classrooms, and areas for drill.  Hosting the HGA at a military base may be more cost effective even if housing personnel in visitor lodging.  I organized an event at Naval Air Station Corpus Christi, TX.  While no barracks were available, I was able to negotiate a very handsome discount with the Navy Lodge on base.

I also served at the USCG Academy in New London, CT.  They always had room for visiting personnel, ie Chief Petty Officer School, Leadership and Management School, OCS, and the Warrant Officer School, to name a few.  Those visiting personnel paid their chow bill at the galley upon receiving each meal and I recall the prices being EXTREMELY reasonable.  There is never a shortage of racks, meals, classrooms, or drill fields.  This is why I think that the Naval Academy may be a good choice to contact. 

This is all food for thought and I have been out of the game for several years.  Keep that in mind before you commence any criticizm or bashing.     
SM Randy Patterson
DPO
399th Comp. Squadron,  Danbury, CT "Yankee Hatters"
IAFF Local 1567
USCG- 1998-2010   Boatswain's Mate
Former member of the old 273rd/ Mid-County Composite Squadron, Nederland, Texas- 1994-2000

NC Hokie

Quote from: the chief on December 07, 2012, 10:23:53 PM
This is a very negative board.  Is this how you teach cadets to change things in life? To sit around complaining or to speak up and request a change.
In no way have I asked random people to call National and complain. I have asked cadets and parents that want the program to continue to call/write/email to let National know that HGA is an activity that many of us think is important.
I have asked the cadets/parents to be a part of the solution of cost by donating money/gift cards/be willing to pay more for the academy.
They can talk to their squadron commander, wing commander, whomever they think will pass the info on up to National...and we are not DEMANDING that National change their mind about HGA we are asking what WE can do to make it happen.

Here's a thought...accept that HGA will not be a NCSA this year and see what can be done to make it a Maryland Wing activity instead.
NC Hokie, Lt Col, CAP

Graduated Squadron Commander
All Around Good Guy

Ned

#51
Part of the problem with using military facilities is that we can be (and have been) bumped with little or no notice.  Remember that for an NCSA cadets and seniors make travel plans 4 to 5 months in advance, often non-refundable airplane tickets.  It is a significant risk to put NHGA at a military facility.  Add to that the access difficulties for family and friends.

But the real problem turns out to be simple economics.  The corporate budget for NCSAs is getting smaller, not larger.  And HGA has one of the largest subsidies.  Over $10k, if I recall correctly.  If we kept NHGA, that would mean eliminating multiple other NCSAs, affecting a larger number of cadets.

And unlike an activity like IACE, HGA can be successfully done at a wing or region level.  We are working to pass along some of the NHGA funding to wings or regions who would like to put an HGA on.

The decision to pause NHGA was a difficult one.  We recognize how successful it has been, due in large part to the incredible and tireless efforts of the staff. But after a lot of staff work, Excel spreadsheets, endless Powerpoints, and scrubbing multiple alternatives, this is the decision made by the senior leadership and approved by Gen Carr.

Thank you for your expressions of support for NHGA.

Ned Lee

wwildcat

#52
The former Chanute AFB in Illinois if full of unused USAF facilities, some occupied by the IL National guard's "Lincoln Challenge Academy." That academy is not used during the summer (I think it isnt anyway) they have dorms/space that could be used.

I also know in Salina, KS we have the KSNG Regional Training Center, and it has open bay barracks , plenty of class space and an Auditorium. Its normally used for OCS/WOCS and annual training. Its not always used every week by units, I am sure they could accommodate the Academy.

The facility also has the capability to feed large units, and I am sure the cost is "reasonable" as it does business with CAP/Mil units. :)

Besides Kansas is easy to reach, its in the middle of the U.S. :)

I am a big boy now, there is no reason to go to my wing CC or DCP because I chat on CAPtalk. :)

Texas Raiders

#53
Is there a standard honor/ceremonial/color guard curriculum/SOP for CAP?  There isn't much in the drill and ceremonies manual.  To my knowledge, the drill manual hasn't been updated since I was a cadet and still holds a date of 03JUN96. The standard for this academy is the USAF Honor Guard and I don't think they'd be willing to teach every wing's honor guard program.  If the HGA's mission is to be handled at the wing level or less, then a curriculum/SOP needs to be created and distributed.   

I have a keen interest in ceremonial details, as I served on many as a CAP cadet and have contiuned to do so throughout my careers, both in the military and at my fire department job.  I want to make sure that I'm teaching the USAF/CAP approved curriculum.  If there isn't one, then I have to find the info elsewhere. 
SM Randy Patterson
DPO
399th Comp. Squadron,  Danbury, CT "Yankee Hatters"
IAFF Local 1567
USCG- 1998-2010   Boatswain's Mate
Former member of the old 273rd/ Mid-County Composite Squadron, Nederland, Texas- 1994-2000

spaatzmom

#54
Quote from: Texas Raiders on December 09, 2012, 01:48:10 PM
Is there a standard honor/ceremonial/color guard curriculum/SOP for CAP?  There isn't much in the drill and ceremonies manual.  To my knowledge, the drill manual hasn't been updated since I was a cadet and still holds a date of 03JUN96. The standard for this academy is the USAF Honor Guard and I don't think they'd be willing to teach every wing's honor guard program.  If the HGA's mission is to be handled at the wing level or less, then a curriculum/SOP needs to be created and distributed.   

I have a keen interest in ceremonial details, as I served on many as a CAP cadet and have contiuned to do so throughout my careers, both in the military and at my fire department job.  I want to make sure that I'm teaching the USAF/CAP approved curriculum.  If there isn't one, then I have to find the info elsewhere.

http://www.ncsas.com/file.cfm/media/careerfairs/documents/HGACurriculumGuide2008_5E356E38059EC.pdf
http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/P052_008_B38750453C56C.pdf   

The cadets are taught exactly what the USAF Honor Guard are since at the academy they are taught by the AF Honor Guard.

HGjunkie

"Standard" really means "changing from year to year" in HG terms, specifically because each year the Guardsmen who come out have different training from year to year and end up teaching us different things every year. It's confusing since what may be correct one year can get flipped the next, so you end up having to relearn every basic drill movement over and over again.
••• retired
2d Lt USAF

Texas Raiders

#56
Quote from: spaatzmom on December 09, 2012, 02:35:46 PM
Quote from: Texas Raiders on December 09, 2012, 01:48:10 PM
Is there a standard honor/ceremonial/color guard curriculum/SOP for CAP?  There isn't much in the drill and ceremonies manual.  To my knowledge, the drill manual hasn't been updated since I was a cadet and still holds a date of 03JUN96. The standard for this academy is the USAF Honor Guard and I don't think they'd be willing to teach every wing's honor guard program.  If the HGA's mission is to be handled at the wing level or less, then a curriculum/SOP needs to be created and distributed.   

I have a keen interest in ceremonial details, as I served on many as a CAP cadet and have contiuned to do so throughout my careers, both in the military and at my fire department job.  I want to make sure that I'm teaching the USAF/CAP approved curriculum.  If there isn't one, then I have to find the info elsewhere.

http://www.ncsas.com/file.cfm/media/careerfairs/documents/HGACurriculumGuide2008_5E356E38059EC.pdf
http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/P052_008_B38750453C56C.pdf   

The cadets are taught exactly what the USAF Honor Guard are since at the academy they are taught by the AF Honor Guard.

Thank you very much for posting the resource links!  That information combined with the information from the exsisting drill and ceremonies manual should be sufficient.  I have located some good training videos from the USAF and USA honor guards.
SM Randy Patterson
DPO
399th Comp. Squadron,  Danbury, CT "Yankee Hatters"
IAFF Local 1567
USCG- 1998-2010   Boatswain's Mate
Former member of the old 273rd/ Mid-County Composite Squadron, Nederland, Texas- 1994-2000

mycapson

#57
I am a 1st timer. I hesitate to say anthing as it seems the (old timers) enjoy belittling anyone new.
-The use of the I dream of genie clip was surely helpful and mature.
It is a shame that this teen is being threatened to lose his grade for wanting to save a program. From what I see the teen is trying to advocate for a program that many value and is also trying to come up with a plan to make it viable.
How dare you knock down this teen's efforts. This teen is obviously a leader in the making.
I come from a military background. Grandfather. Father. Brothers. I have a 14 year old son, ~S~. He lives for the military.
He will NEVER be in the military. He has disabilities. He is bipolar and attention deficit. He does not have behavior issues, just learning problems.
He was recruited to CAP in FL. He loves his uniform and likes to "march" around in it.
The reality of CAP for my son-he will most likely never promote. For him the tests are a challenge as well as the PT. That is ok with him He is proud that he is in the "military."
He is a soldier in his uniform.
Although others don't see it that way.
I have been dropping him off/picking him up. I was told this was fine.
(The Commander and recruiter have full info on the limitations ~S~ has.
I was told he would be accepted at his level.
Imagine my heart break after finding out that ~S~ has spent several meetings in the lobby.
A friend advised me after questioning why he was never back with the squadron. The reason, ~S~ lost his ID card. He has been humiliated about losing his card and was to upset to tell me that he had to buy a new one.
After finding out about this I asked him what he does for an hour and a half while waiting for me to pick him up.
He told me he opens the door for anyone coming in or out.
He does it proudly in his CAP uniform. He is happy to serve in any capacity and came up with a "job" for himself.
The same friend that alerted me to this situation also told me that anyone in the squadron could have helped ~S~ print out a temporary card. They also could have let me know to go online and purchase the new card for $1.00.
It has also been discovered that the commander advised cadet staff and senior staff from letting him past the lobby until he had a new card.
Several people were emailed concerning ~S~ and him not having the ID and advising staff to check him at the door.
How upsetting that rather than help him print a card they went out of their way to make sure he did not get help.
Those in place to help him are the ones that are trying to destroy his self esteem.
Thankfully like the teen above , ~S~ found a way around them and was still providing a service, even though he did not get CAP credit for it. We are moving soon to NJ  and hope to find a squadron that will have compassion for ~S~.
For the teen above, good luck with your endeavors you will go far in life for standing up for your convictions.
If you are reprimanded for your efforts, it is a SHAME on CAP, not on you.

Extremepredjudice

It is a shame that unit did that. If I was there, I would've helped your son. I think you should sit down with the unit commander, his deputy, the cadet commander, and your son's immediate cadet supervisor.

CAPTalk doesn't like new blood (let's face it, it is true). You have to figure out where you stand in the forum.

"the chief" is trying for the wrong thing. 2013 is decided. Period. No way to change this.

If "the chief" really does want to advocate and get HGA back, people have posted a lot of solutions. He needs to plan. He needs to figure out a solution and market it to NHQ THROUGH THE CHAIN OF COMMAND for 2014.

The way he is going about it is stupid. No military organization is going to give a rat's a** about people calling in. Sorry, it is true.

Acting like he is Billy Mitchell isn't helping
I love the moderators here. <3

Hanlon's Razor
Occam's Razor
"Flight make chant; I good leader"

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
I am a 1st timer. I hesitate to say anthing as it seems the (old timers) enjoy belittling anyone new.

People who come in here without a 'tude have no problems. Next thing you know they have hundreds of posts and are regulars.

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
-The use of the I dream of genie clip was surely helpful and mature.

Fire with fire and all that.

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
It is a shame that this teen is being threatened to lose his grade for wanting to save a program.

Reading comprehension. It matters. Being told that consequences because of a stunt may lead to removal from the program != someone here doing so.

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
From what I see the teen is trying to advocate for a program that many value and is also trying to come up with a plan to make it viable.

Said teen is misinformed, unaware of how things work, and is fighting a battle that has ended before he arrived on the field.

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
How dare you knock down this teen's efforts. This teen is obviously a leader in the making.

All of our cadets are. When they make mistakes they get consequences. That's part of growing up and developing as a leader. Ask Nin and Eclipse about a certain other C/Chief and the grief he had on CS some seven years ago. Didn't kill me, won't kill him.

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
He will NEVER be in the military. He has disabilities. He is bipolar and attention deficit. He does not have behavior issues, just learning problems.

CAP can work with that.

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
He was recruited to CAP in FL. He loves his uniform and likes to "march" around in it.

I hope you mean actually Marching and not "marching", because he should be doing the former, same as anyone else in CAP.

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
The reality of CAP for my son-he will most likely never promote. For him the tests are a challenge as well as the PT. That is ok with him He is proud that he is in the "military."

By no means is that a reality for ANYONE in CAP. What CAN be a reality is a cadet removed from the program for failure to progress. That is in the regs, disabilities leading to 5 year C/ABs is not. IAW CAPR 52-16 Squadron Commanders have a VERY big say in how a cadet may take tests. If your son has IEP from his school, the unit may benefit from any insights within. As you states he has at least some sort of disability, the cadet can also be placed into Category III or IV for PT which may excuse him from all or some of the training, temporarily or permanently.

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
He is a soldier in his uniform.

No, he is a CAP Cadet in his uniform.

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
Although others don't see it that way.

Because it's not.

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
I have been dropping him off/picking him up. I was told this was fine.

As an older sibling of an autistic child, what were you thinking as a parent? I can already see where this is going and at least half the blame of ANYTHING down below is on you. People with disabilities by no means need constant hand holding, but you have to make sure they ARE fine before letting them go on their way alone.

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
(The Commander and recruiter have full info on the limitations ~S~ has.

In that case they should have been acting upon his limitations to resolve your belief that he will never progress in CAP. That's on them.

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
I was told he would be accepted at his level.

As Mandated by our Bylaws and federal law.

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
Imagine my heart break after finding out that ~S~ has spent several meetings in the lobby.

Troublesome from the CAP standpoint, but even worse on the parental side.

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
A friend advised me after questioning why he was never back with the squadron. The reason, ~S~ lost his ID card. He has been humiliated about losing his card and was to upset to tell me that he had to buy a new one.

IIRC, the basic membership card is free? Either way, is this friend a member in the unit? What was this "friend" doing for those weeks when a cadet was alone, unattended in the lobby? This story is just completely weird.

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
After finding out about this I asked him what he does for an hour and a half while waiting for me to pick him up.

At the very least CAP meetings have to be 2 hours long, with 2.5 being the norm, and some running 3. Hour and a half sounds a bit short to me...

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
He told me he opens the door for anyone coming in or out.

That's great, but perhaps as a parent you should have been asking "How was the meeting this week?" if you couldn't be bothered to observe personally?

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
He does it proudly in his CAP uniform. He is happy to serve in any capacity and came up with a "job" for himself.

The problem here doesn't even...sigh...

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
The same friend that alerted me to this situation also told me that anyone in the squadron could have helped ~S~ print out a temporary card. They also could have let me know to go online and purchase the new card for $1.00.

Lack of the card also doesn't mean he could not participate in CAP meetings...

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
It has also been discovered that the commander advised cadet staff and senior staff from letting him past the lobby until he had a new card.

If true, the Squadron Commander and EVERY SM in the unit need to be removed from our organization. Someone should have spoken up as that is simply not correct.

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
Several people were emailed concerning ~S~ and him not having the ID and advising staff to check him at the door.

I don't understand what this sentence means...

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
How upsetting that rather than help him print a card they went out of their way to make sure he did not get help.

How upsetting that as an involved parent you could have done the same.

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
Those in place to help him are the ones that are trying to destroy his self esteem.

The parents are part of that "help" group.

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
Thankfully like the teen above , ~S~ found a way around them and was still providing a service, even though he did not get CAP credit for it. We are moving soon to NJ  and hope to find a squadron that will have compassion for ~S~.

He doesn't need compassion, he needs to be accommodated to the possible extent within CAP regulations. Any unit can and should be doing that.

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
For the teen above, good luck with your endeavors you will go far in life for standing up for your convictions.

Don't take that advice. I've done it many times, and the last time cost me just under $2,000 dollars in fines. Just don't do it. Use your head, pick you battles, etc etc. Don't fall on your sword over EVERY little issue.

Quote from: mycapson on December 10, 2012, 03:36:29 AM
If you are reprimanded for your efforts, it is a SHAME on CAP, not on you.

If you DO get reprimanded for your stupid choices, take it as a valuable life lesson.