ICL for Phaseout of CSU posted

[Eclipse]

I could see the Army being a little annoyed by the similarities with their uniform, a problem I think could be resolved by allowing the equivalent AF outergarments.

Why aren't we allowed to be annoyed that some other service is wearing our uniform parts?  We've been wearing white shirts for a long time, and blue pants, too.  Now all of a sudden those become Army items?

The same windbreaker is also worn by the Navy, so which service gets to be annoyed first?  The Marines wear blue pants, and they all wear bus driver hats.

What about all the various LE and FD's that wear similar cuts?

There's only so many colors, and so many styles a uniform can come in.  Just pick one and go with it.

[cap235629]

here is my solution. Put ALL Seniors in this modified CSU keeping the black windbreaker and sweater with slides allowing neatly trimmed facial hair, the BBDU all insignia changed to white on navy adding a black gore-tex parka as an option, allow khaki pants with polo or navy tac/bdu style pants for field/flight, ditch the grey pants and have a 2 year wear out date. Keep cadets in AF style but change to navy insignia on BDU/ABU. this keeps us linked with the AF but is distinguishable. It puts us in 1 UNIFORM and costs are just about the same for all.

[Gunner C]

I could see the Army being a little annoyed by the similarities with their uniform, a problem I think could be resolved by allowing the equivalent AF outergarments.

Why aren't we allowed to be annoyed that some other service is wearing our uniform parts?  We've been wearing white shirts for a long time, and blue pants, too.  Now all of a sudden those become Army items?

Because CAP has to play "Mother my I?" and Mother blue won't say "Hey!  You know those fat/fuzzy civilians that congress keeps putting in my back yard that I have to spend money on?  Well, listen buster!  You're using their uniform shirt.  And if you don't cease and desist, they're going to have to wear something else!  Got that Army?" (or words to that effect). 

Bottom line:  We're a pain in the ass to the AF.  They don't like us, no matter how much they smile, shake our hands, and tell us how swell we are.  We keep their aircrews from having to fly all night looking for an ELT that went off and (occasionally) find someone who's in trouble.  $40,000,000 is out of their pockets and they have all these fat guys crawling all over our bases.  Their senior NCOs go nuts and their commanders can't do anything about it except kvetch to the chain of command.  (Apparently, the E-9s finally got through).

[Eclipse]

As long as we have members who continue to accept a second-class status, despite the fact that we are all unpaid volunteers saving the country millions of dollars, we are doomed before we start.

If we're that much of a PITA, there's an easy fix for that.  I don't personally agree with that stance, but regardless.

A "privilege to serve" doesn't mean we have to be the doormat of the DOD for that privilege.

[indygreg]

Wow, I wasn't aware when I signed up that uniforms were such a sore spot.  From a newcomers perspective, I'd have to agree that the uniform regulations are confusing, especially when the weight and grooming standards are thrown in.  It seems it would be a lot less confusing to narrow the choices down some.

Personally, I like the Blue BDU's,and the grey/white combo.  I don't feel comfortable wearing the same uniform as the AF (OK, I know that most of them aren't wearing woodland BDU's anymore).  While they allow us the privilege of wearing the AF blue uniforms, I just don't feel right about it.  They're doing it "for real", I'm not.

As for the CSU, I've never really considered wearing it, so I don't really have an opinion.

[Spike]

Gunner, that is some pretty harsh speak.  We don't take money away from the AF.  The budget money comes from the FED through the AF for fiduciary reasons.  We are placed in the AF budget for the same reason, to show where and how the money for CAP is going.

Fat and fuzzies crawling over "our Bases"??  I suppose you do not like CAP in general?

Or was your reply some sarcastic response, I can not tell?

[Spike]

I don't feel comfortable wearing the same uniform as the AF (OK, I know that most of them aren't wearing woodland BDU's anymore).  While they allow us the privilege of wearing the AF blue uniforms, I just don't feel right about it.  They're doing it "for real", I'm not.

Tell ME what the AF is doing "for real", that others do not.  In understand the combat part, but they are paid.  I never liked reading the line you posted or hearing it from CAP members.  We volunteer and spend our time in CAP usually at personal expense.  Some have lost their lives in CAP service.  Please do not undersell the CAP Members dedication and commitment. 

[indygreg]

I don't feel comfortable wearing the same uniform as the AF (OK, I know that most of them aren't wearing woodland BDU's anymore).  While they allow us the privilege of wearing the AF blue uniforms, I just don't feel right about it.  They're doing it "for real", I'm not.

Tell ME what the AF is doing "for real", that others do not.  In understand the combat part, but they are paid.  I never liked reading the line you posted or hearing it from CAP members.  We volunteer and spend our time in CAP usually at personal expense.  Some have lost their lives in CAP service.  Please do not undersell the CAP Members dedication and commitment.

Not my intention at all.  I'm just saying that most of us, with the exception of CAP members who are also military, are not going to face combat.  Granted, everytime a CAP pilot takes off, they are taking a risk, and I have nothing but respect for that.

[FW]

Well, the National Board meeting is only 10 days away.  The agenda items which concern the issue will still be debated however, with the ICL in mind.  The National Board can agree, change or, get rid of the policy all together.  Let the games begin.

[EMT-83]

Wow, I wasn't aware when I signed up that uniforms were such a sore spot.

Here on CAP Talk, yes. In the real world, probably not so much.

[Cecil DP]

...
I could see the Army being a little annoyed by the similarities with their uniform,

For the record the Army Blue Dress Uniform has been around for a looooong time. But with the elimination of the green dress uniform it has become the everyday dress uniform, not just for formal occasions anymore. The only hint I've seen that the Army objects to the uniform is that someone on this forum displayed a picture of the Army uniform on the site and observed the similarity, along with a comment about how close the shirts matched.

[Earhart1971]

...
I could see the Army being a little annoyed by the similarities with their uniform,

For the record the Army Blue Dress Uniform has been around for a looooong time. But with the elimination of the green dress uniform it has become the everyday dress uniform, not just for formal occasions anymore. The only hint I've seen that the Army objects to the uniform is that someone on this forum displayed a picture of the Army uniform on the site and observed the similarity, along with a comment about how close the shirts matched.

Army should not have a say in our Corp Unmiform.  Check Page 21 of the Agenda. We are so WEAK!
b

[Hawk200]

I don't feel comfortable wearing the same uniform as the AF (OK, I know that most of them aren't wearing woodland BDU's anymore).  While they allow us the privilege of wearing the AF blue uniforms, I just don't feel right about it.  They're doing it "for real", I'm not.

I do not understand this reasoning. If you're not comfortable wearing the uniform, why even join the organization? Even if you don't wear the AF variants, you are still directly associated with people who do.

I spent eleven and a half years wearing AF uniforms, and didn't do a single thing combat related. Nothing. There was an excercise or two every year, but nothing that was really all that realistic. Except for those occasional excercises, it was a nine to five job. I didn't even get a deployment until I transferred over to the Army, and I even volunteered a few times. I don't know what you think I did "for real", but I can guarantee you it's nothing major. Many people in the Air Force might not even deploy if they only serve a single enlistment.

The only problem with those that haven't served wearing the uniform is when they don't treat it with the appropriate dignity. Many new members treat them like just another set of clothes, unless they have another member to educate them. It's not posing or pretending to wear it. It's posing or pretending when you try to present yourself as something you're not.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I do not understand this reasoning. If you're not comfortable wearing the uniform, why even join the organization? Even if you don't wear the AF variants, you are still directly associated with people who do.

I don't understand it either.

First of all, to get pedantic, we do not wear the Air Force uniform.   We wear the modified Air Force uniform.  We always have, going back to 1941 and Army Air Corps/Army Air Forces days.  Check the latest issue of Volunteer (which has a very pithy, brief mention of the "obsolete" CSU as well as a dancing-around-the-issue reading of why we lost metal rank and blue CAP epaulettes).

Second, we are hardly the only organisation who wears a modified military uniform. 

Various State Defence Forces (SDF's) wear even-less-modified Army, Navy, Air Force and Marine uniforms (not sure if any have Coast Guard uniforms).  Two non-military uniformed services (NOAA Corps, U.S. Public Health Service) wear uniforms almost identical to the Navy, as does the U.S. Merchant Marine.

Then there is the U.S. Coast Guard Auxiliary, Young Marines, U.S. Navy Sea Cadets, U.S. Army Cadets and the various ROTC/JROTC units.

Until relatively recently (I don't know the year), the AF-type uniform was the only option.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Bottom line:  We're a pain in the ass to the AF.  They don't like us, no matter how much they smile, shake our hands, and tell us how swell we are.  We keep their aircrews from having to fly all night looking for an ELT that went off and (occasionally) find someone who's in trouble.  $40,000,000 is out of their pockets and they have all these fat guys crawling all over our bases.  Their senior NCOs go nuts and their commanders can't do anything about it except kvetch to the chain of command.  (Apparently, the E-9s finally got through).

I would say that the AF is more ignorant about us (especially younger Airmen) than anything else.

Nothing is taught about us in BMT to new Airmen and has not been for some time.  MTI's know about us mostly because of Mitchell cadets coming in at advanced grade and sometimes being selected for leadership positions.

I find more officers that know about us than Airmen/NCO's.

One thing that I have found to be a PITA is that too many LO's/State Directors I've known seem to care less about anything except cadets (warm bodies for Lackland), though it wasn't always that way.

I lay the blame, if any is to be laid, for that at the feet of our leadership, who over the past 20 years have actively tried to have it both ways: corporate ("AF can't tell us what to do!  We're volunteers!") and part-time auxiliary (so that we can still have the nice blue uniforms).

[PHall]

Bottom line:  We're a pain in the ass to the AF.  They don't like us, no matter how much they smile, shake our hands, and tell us how swell we are.  We keep their aircrews from having to fly all night looking for an ELT that went off and (occasionally) find someone who's in trouble.  $40,000,000 is out of their pockets and they have all these fat guys crawling all over our bases.  Their senior NCOs go nuts and their commanders can't do anything about it except kvetch to the chain of command.  (Apparently, the E-9s finally got through).

I would say that the AF is more ignorant about us (especially younger Airmen) than anything else.

Nothing is taught about us in BMT to new Airmen and has not been for some time.  MTI's know about us mostly because of Mitchell cadets coming in at advanced grade and sometimes being selected for leadership positions.

I find more officers that know about us than Airmen/NCO's.

One thing that I have found to be a PITA is that too many LO's/State Directors I've known seem to care less about anything except cadets (warm bodies for Lackland), though it wasn't always that way.

I lay the blame, if any is to be laid, for that at the feet of our leadership, who over the past 20 years have actively tried to have it both ways: corporate ("AF can't tell us what to do!  We're volunteers!") and part-time auxiliary (so that we can still have the nice blue uniforms).

They don't teach anything in BMT about CAP because they only have so many training hours available and they basically have more hours of instruction to teach then they have hours available.

[Hawk200]

They don't teach anything in BMT about CAP because they only have so many training hours available and they basically have more hours of instruction to teach then they have hours available.

With many of the recent changes and additions to BMT, I really don't see this as all that valid. A presentation only a few hours long would yield a great deal.

When I was in BMT there was loads of filler and review time that could easily have been replaced with something new and interesting. I don't buy for a second that time just isn't available. I remember the two days prior to graduating just waiting for it. A few hours on CAP would be easy.

I would grant that there would be a lot of airman that would want to join up immediately, I probably would have, but many would do so for the wrong reasons. A simple problem to resolve, we don't take apps from someone in basic or tech school. Maybe even extend it to after follow on training (such as Air Force CDCs or other branch equivalent courses).  After the first year or two, we'd probably be swimming in apps.

[JoeTomasone]

I would think that a presentation on CAP covering what your average airman needs to know would take no longer than 30 minutes, and that includes Q&A.

* USAF Auxiliary (no need to confuse them with aux on/aux off)
* Does SAR as tasked by AFRCC, Predator training, slow moving target practice
* Cadet program, Aerospace Education
* We don't (have to) salute them, they do have to salute us
* Civilians, no UCMJ
* Generally speaking have access to the base for uniform purchases and authorized activities
* May wear USAF-style uniforms or completely weird stuff if they are fat or fuzzy, don't worry about it.


Done.

[James Shaw]

I do detect some compromise attempt coming from General Courter's ICL.

I have talked with General Courter about this CSU uniform issue. She has been very concerned with this from the beginning.

She has done ALOT of work about this to try and make it easier for members who invested their money to get a level of use out of it. She has taken a third party look at this and had some others look at the legal, financial, and other standpoints. She does not look at these things from strictly one point. She gets a tremendous amount of background information and supporting reasoning before she goes any further. She knows and realizes that her support and decisions have a huge impact on the members. She takes that approach with everything she does for CAP.

[FW]

Thanks for your comment, Jim.  Maybe next time Gen Courter will "confide" to the National Board before she makes her decisons of major impact to the membership.  It was obvious to the trainied eye, the CSU was DOA at the beginning of the November NEC meeting.  NO ONE was wearing it.  This type of "scripting" was supposed to be gone after HWSRN left the scene.  I don't doubt what she said to you however, past expierience has shown otherwise.  It is not appropriate for further discussion by me on this so, I'll just fume off.  I don't think this will change the "tone" of the NB meeting.