ICL for Phaseout of CSU posted

[Strick]

or...........If you want to wear a military style uniform drop some weight and shave....If yo dont,just wear the greya and whites......end of strory :clap:

[Eclipse]

We've been here before - its not that simple a situation when you're talking about volunteers and setting up a "second class" of
membership.  In fact, this "under class" without a proper uniform was addressed directly in the up coming NB agenda.

[Strick]

I am in favor of standardizing grey pants,and a hat and jacket.  I think every memeber should be in a very tasteful uniform that present a proffesional image.  Just dont take away AF uniform because the other side cant wear them.  I do appreciate that they released the ICL for guidance.  Many seniros I know were very confused over the issue. 

[Bluelakes 13]

So let me got this right. After 1-1-12 I can still wear my pullover sweater, black wind breaker, and black over coat, without markings rank, patches, metals, etc... but I wear these as civilian items over my uniform? I could even wear these items over my golf shirt? Is that correct?

I disagree with Bob on this one - those three items are common dress items that can be purchased from Wallyworld to Sears.  They are civilian cloths when no military/CAP insignia is on them.  Thus they can be worn with uniforms allowing civilian overwear, like golf shirt or white/greys.

[SStradley]

Now to recap, we have a uniform with gray (un-uniform color and cut) pants, white aviator shirt, gray CAP epaulet sleeves,  gray name plate, and civilian coat and be fat and fuzzy.  Or we can wear (to 1/1/212) blue (uniform color and cut) pants, white aviator shirt, gray CAP epaulet sleeves,  blue name plate, and black windbreaker or police-style sweater or blue double breasted coat and be fat but not fuzzy.  Other than how many lines on each name tag do I have it straight?

[Hawk200]

Other than how many lines on each name tag do I have it straight?

I think you got it straight.

[Eclipse]

So let me got this right. After 1-1-12 I can still wear my pullover sweater, black wind breaker, and black over coat, without markings rank, patches, metals, etc... but I wear these as civilian items over my uniform? I could even wear these items over my golf shirt? Is that correct?

I disagree with Bob on this one - those three items are common dress items that can be purchased from Wallyworld to Sears.  They are civilian cloths when no military/CAP insignia is on them.  Thus they can be worn with uniforms allowing civilian overwear, like golf shirt or white/greys.

You cannot buy an Army windbreaker or a police tactical sweater at Sears - you might be able to find something similar, but the definition on these was clear, especially for the jacket.  If you're wearing something you bought at Sears over the CSU, that's wrong to start with.

This would be the same as saying that the USAF windbreaker could be worn with the whites without grade insignia.

[rjfoxx]

I believe that there a comment in the NB minutes about the "black jacket" being allowed with the white/grey combo.  I think it was near the end of the CSU phase-out section. 

[Eclipse]

I believe that there a comment in the NB minutes about the "black jacket" being allowed with the white/grey combo.  I think it was near the end of the CSU phase-out section.

That's the black leather A2.

[Nick]

Interesting - extended to Jan 2012, replaces metal grade with standard CAP sleeves, metal grade removed by 1 September 2010.

Also indicates cadets wearing the whites wear the standard blue cadet nameplate.

I'm surprised the Air Force let it go until 1 September ... it should be reasonable to assume every senior member has a set of gray epaulets (or can easily get them), I would've expected a ~30 day phase-out.

[RogueLeader]

Interesting - extended to Jan 2012, replaces metal grade with standard CAP sleeves, metal grade removed by 1 September 2010.

Also indicates cadets wearing the whites wear the standard blue cadet nameplate.

I'm surprised the Air Force let it go until 1 September ... it should be reasonable to assume every senior member has a set of gray epaulets (or can easily get them), I would've expected a ~30 day phase-out.

Scamguard Vanguard likely couldn't have been able to supply all the epaullets in that time frame.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I do detect some compromise attempt coming from General Courter's ICL. :clap:

I would be completely good with her designated changes becoming permanent, and replacing the grey trousers altogether.  Others will disagree, but I just think the grey trousers stink and look most un-aviation like.

I can do without hard rank and the blue nameplate; neither one cost me a lot.

Now I wonder if Vanguard is going to start selling the service coat again...

[Hawk200]

Scamguard Vanguard likely couldn't have been able to supply all the epaullets in that time frame.

They wouldn't have need to supply a whole lot. I'd bet that a (very) large majority of members who bought the CSU already had at least the aviator combo, and therefore the appropriate insignia.

I can't see everyone that only wore the golf shirt suddenly going out and buying the CSU. Most of the ones wearing it did it for cost and practicality, buying a new uniform complete doesn't fit.

[Spike]

There is a CORRECTION to the ICL mandating the grey nameplate now.

Come on NHQ.  This is apparently a very important issue to the USAF, and the NEC, yet you are fumbling on getting the correct directions out. 

I understand that mistakes are made, but seriously, did anyone look over the ICL and make sure it was ready to publish when it went out this morning??

Disappointed.........

[Eclipse]

There is a CORRECTION to the ICL mandating the grey nameplate now.

Its a correction to the one issued today?  Do you have a link?
http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/2010_02_16_CAP_uniforms_EA51A6906B737.pdf

This gets another "YAY!" from me.  Uniform changes should not be like a ball game, with all of us cheering or booing the latest play
with the potential for a dispute to go to the replay judge for reversal, however, with that said, all of these moves are in the right direction, reasonable, and should have a positive or neutral impact financially on most members.

I don't personally know anyone who can't just swap insignia from other combos for this.

[vmstan]

If you look at the PDF the change is highlighted.

As complex as they've made it, it wouldn't be hard to mess it up.

[RiverAux]

There is a CORRECTION to the ICL mandating the grey nameplate now.

Its a correction to the one issued today?  Do you have a link?
http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/2010_02_16_CAP_uniforms_EA51A6906B737.pdf

This gets another "YAY!" from me.

Say, what do you know, NHQ can make a change in a regulation (well, ICL) in less than a day.  So, there goes any excuse they have for being so delinquent on turning ICLS into a regulation.  Of course, we've known there is no excuse for their lack of action on these items, but maybe this is a sign that they're going to work on this stuff faster.

[Bill]

For what it is worth the Army feeling about the black windbreaker being worn with civilian clothing is when all insignia is removed it may be worn by Army personnel with civilian clothing, because their regulation governs how their personnel wear their uniform clothing.

R670-1 para 27-30 c. How worn. All personnel may wear the windbreaker with the class B, hospital duty, and food service uniforms.
Personnel will not wear the windbreaker in formations unless authorized by the commander. Personnel will wear the
windbreaker zipped to at least the second button down from the top of the shirt. Only non-subdued, pin-on grade
insignia is worn on the windbreaker. Personnel may wear the windbreaker without insignia when wearing civilian
clothing.   

I just don't see a conflict with it being an item we would wear with the CSU as currently amended in the ICL, because the cut, color, and style of this windbreaker is not unlike various  jackets not made for any uniform service...

After all the Blank London Fog raincoat is also a garment that could be worn with our CSU without insignia, but would look like several RM rain coats... 

The point here is that a number of people have spent a lot of buck while these uniform items were approved and the extension helps our members justify to themselves and their family the cost outlay.  Clearly the white/Grey combo never quite filled the bill of being a uniform because of all the reason given over the many posts and years, and the Blazer Combo is just as much a dress uniform for the Boy Scouts, Coast Guard Auxiliary as it is for us.  Frankly, I agree with some I would hope that these changes outlined in the most recent ICL would satisfy the CAP-USAF commander et al, and we could move on, with some degree of uniformity in our organization...

Bill

[Hawk200]

...because the cut, color, and style of this windbreaker is not unlike various  jackets not made for any uniform service...

I don't think it's appropriate to attempt to adopt military garments by justifying it with "Well, there a lot of jackets that look like it that aren't uniform items". The military's response would probably be "Fine, then use one of those jackets, don't use ours". I think they'd be right.

...After all the Blank London Fog raincoat is also a garment that could be worn with our CSU without insignia, but would look like several RM rain coats...

Not sure how that would work. I believe all the outergarments for the CSU were required to have some type of insignia.

Clearly the white/Grey combo never quite filled the bill of being a uniform because of all the reason given over the many posts and years, and the Blazer Combo is just as much a dress uniform for the Boy Scouts, Coast Guard Auxiliary as it is for us.

Agreed.

...Frankly, I agree with some I would hope that these changes outlined in the most recent ICL would satisfy the CAP-USAF commander et al, and we could move on, with some degree of uniformity in our organization...

Also agreed. Too many of our uniforms don't look like they relate to each other. Not so critical with the different color flightsuits or BDUs, both have the same insignia. But the CSU and blues differed when it came to the insignia, so the appearance given was of completely different organizations.

I could see the Army being a little annoyed by the similarities with their uniform, a problem I think could be resolved by allowing the equivalent AF outergarments. However, I have a suspicion that, with the fiasco of the CSU's coming about in the first place, the Air Force might not be so interested in having any dialogue on it.

[Rotorhead]

or...........If you want to wear a military style uniform drop some weight and shave....If yo dont,just wear the greya and whites......end of strory :clap:

That was my motivation to drop some weight.