I need to attend an anger management class today.

[Major Carrales]

Interesting point

So if a CAP pilot earned an Air Medal flying for CAP in WWII, he would be in violation of regs if he wore it on a corporate Uniform.

The problem I have is all of the bling that CAP awards each other for things that the active duty people laugh at us for. We are way out of line giving ribbons for completion of home study courses.

but to deny a military medal for valor is strange. But I know of many CAP members who never served in the military so all they know are the home study course completion ribbons.

wow am I going to get it on this one.

So John have you heard from Marty lately?

Wow, and I called Flying Pig out for putting down non-military types.  Wow!!!

Fact is, CAP is culturally not like the military.  It has its own nuances that many times Prior Service types simply do not understand.  I've seen many prior service CAP Officers become frustrated because things are not running the "Army," "Air Force" or "Navy" Way.  Fact is CAP is run according the the CAP way.

If you want USAF light, may I suggest joining the USAFR?  If you want to serve your community as a CAP Officer may I suggest that it be done in the CAP way.  Sometimes that requires homestudy courses...you know why?  Because CAP Officers operate in a world where they have jobs, families and the like.  I suppose one might fault the Minutemen at Lexington and Concord for not having "Genuine British Military Education."  Washington himself read it all in Books prior to his activities as an AUXILIARY Major in the British Army (Virgina Milita) in 1754.

But I suppose he is not up to the standards established here at CAPTALK.

[Cecil DP]

I think that the part of the National Legal Officer's statement regarding the wear of combat-related badges being inappropriate for CAP was probably more of a personal statement of belief rather than an actual legal opinion on that issue.  As we've seen on this board many times, there are some people in CAP who would prefer that we have no obvious associations at all with the military and they're entitled to that opinion.  I think that in this case the NLO probably should have stuck just to the legal facts.  

If the NLO made that remark as the NLO and/or as a member of CAP for the guidance of CAP members than yes it is an official statement and not a "personal opinion". Even the Secretary of Veterans Affairs encourages the wear of ribbons on civilian clothing when appropriate. The CSU has been repeatedly described by CAP as a "civilian variant" of the USAF uniform.

So is the CSU an AF uniform or not?

[Eclipse]

So is the CSU an AF uniform or not?

Obviously not.  It is a CIVIL AIR PATROL uniform.

In fact, the "blues" are not an AF uniform either - they are a USAF-style uniform.

Absent our being funded, commanded, and little-brother to a military service, we could pretty much wear whatever we wanted in the same way that police, fire, airline pilots and civilian boat captains do and no one would care.

However, we are funded, commanded, and little-brother to a military service, therefore, we do what we are told.

[winterg]

Want us all to get a little more credibility with the uniforms, and in turn perhaps some relaxation on the regulatory-stranglehold?  How about we put the same "100% compliance" effort and emphasis on uniforms, customs, and courtesies, that was expended for the wing banker program. 

Well said.  But also for the reasons stated in your post probably has little chance of happening.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Interesting point

So if a CAP pilot earned an Air Medal flying for CAP in WWII, he would be in violation of regs if he wore it on a corporate Uniform.

The problem I have is all of the bling that CAP awards each other for things that the active duty people laugh at us for. We are way out of line giving ribbons for completion of home study courses.

but to deny a military medal for valor is strange. But I know of many CAP members who never served in the military so all they know are the home study course completion ribbons.

wow am I going to get it on this one.

So John have you heard from Marty lately?

Wow, and I called Flying Pig out for putting down non-military types.  Wow!!!

Fact is, CAP is culturally not like the military.  It has its own nuances that many times Prior Service types simply do not understand.  I've seen many prior service CAP Officers become frustrated because things are not running the "Army," "Air Force" or "Navy" Way.  Fact is CAP is run according the the CAP way.

If you want USAF light, may I suggest joining the USAFR?  If you want to serve your community as a CAP Officer may I suggest that it be done in the CAP way.  Sometimes that requires homestudy courses...you know why?  Because CAP Officers operate in a world where they have jobs, families and the like.  I suppose one might fault the Minutemen at Lexington and Concord for not having "Genuine British Military Education."  Washington himself read it all in Books prior to his activities as an AUXILIARY Major in the British Army (Virgina Milita) in 1754.

But I suppose he is not up to the standards established here at CAPTALK.

Yes, there is an Army, Navy, and CAP way.

CAP does not deploy operational units, as volunteers we form a "Task Force" for every mission, commanded by a pre-qualified "Incident Commander" who structures his force as he needs to to accomplish the mission.  This is not the way the military does things generally, but how we MUST do things when we never know who is available for a call.

Also, all positions below Wing commander are grade immaterial.  That also is not what the military branches are used to.

But once these differences are embraced by military folk, they tend to adapt rapidly.

At least until somebody says that their combat service, and the awards associated with it, are "Inappropriate."

[Eclipse]

There's a lot more significant differences than the two you mention, not the least of which is the inability
to compel or require participation, and the limited disciplinary consequences for non- or poor performance.

Honestly John, I don't think too many people here think you're off-base, but if you fly your indignation flag too high
you're going to lose your supporters.

At the end of the day, its all bling - I have no issue with you wearing it, you should be able to considering our military auxiliary context, but CIB's, combat ribbons, and likewise don't have a lot of analog in CAP, nor are they really much indication any specific abilities that CAP is looking for, especially in the operational context.

[JohnKachenmeister]

There's a lot more significant differences than the two you mention, not the least of which is the inability
to compel or require participation, and the limited disciplinary consequences for non- or poor performance.

Honestly John, I don't think too many people here think you're off-base, but if you fly your indignation flag too high
you're going to lose your supporters.

At the end of the day, its all bling - I have no issue with you wearing it, you should be able to considering our military auxiliary context, but CIB's, combat ribbons, and likewise don't have a lot of analog in CAP, nor are they really much indication any specific abilities that CAP is looking for, especially in the operational context.

I cited two examples, and never intended it to be a complete dissertation on the differences between RM and CAP.  But even the examples you cite are surmountable leadership challenges.  I have never known any officer who relied only on disciplinary and coercive authority to accomplish the mission.

And, frankly, it is NOT about the awards themselves.  It is about the demeaning comment made by the NLO.  To be honest, I can use the issue as further incentive to lose more weight, get into AF blue, and then I can wear them anyway.  (When losing weight is easier than setting up a new ribbon rack, I'll hit the gym).

I am NOT angry about the decision itself, except that the NB failed to rebuke the NLO for saying that the awards earned by members in battle in defense of the United States are "Inappropriate."

Really... Just who does he think he is?

[heliodoc]

Kach

Thank you for your service in the 'Nam

Some folks here (CAP NLO and NB) collectively, will  not figure this out

That is why in my "measly" 21 years of service, approx 8 yrs after Nam, I just put all my ribbons, aircrew badges, pro badges all in a shadow box

Just bring your previous knowledge to the table, like we all have, help some of the seniors and cadets out where you can......

CAP needs alot to learn BUT as far as respect for the military, folks that I knew in CAP 25 years ago that turned CAP Col and  CAP LTC STILL have no idea what I did for the service of this country, nor do they ask.

It's a goofy organization..  For the folks out there, I served... I am here for the ES and the "Cheeep" flying and really do not give a rip what some folks think.   

Both of lived the UCMJ and the AR 670-1 life and lived by the RM rules.. But I am also here to say the some of the CAP "rules" are dreamed up by some bunch of kangaroo court types who have egos that have not been truly humbled, yet!!!

[JohnKachenmeister]

Kach

Thank you for your service in the 'Nam

Some folks here (CAP NLO and NB) collectively, will  not figure this out

That is why in my "measly" 21 years of service, approx 8 yrs after Nam, I just put all my ribbons, aircrew badges, pro badges all in a shadow box

Just bring your previous knowledge to the table, like we all have, help some of the seniors and cadets out where you can......

CAP needs alot to learn BUT as far as respect for the military, folks that I knew in CAP 25 years ago that turned CAP Col and  CAP LTC STILL have no idea what I did for the service of this country, nor do they ask.

It's a goofy organization..  For the folks out there, I served... I am here for the ES and the "Cheeep" flying and really do not give a rip what some folks think.   

Both of lived the UCMJ and the AR 670-1 life and lived by the RM rules.. But I am also here to say the some of the CAP "rules" are dreamed up by some bunch of kangaroo court types who have egos that have not been truly humbled, yet!!!

It may be a fair criticism of my position that I am over-reacting to this, but...

When I came back from Vietnam, I was greeted with protesters outside the gate of Travis AFB.  I had to endure every long-haired college freshman who ever took Psych 101 pontificating about my adjustment when he had never done anything significant in his life except potty training.  And my personal favorite:  "I chose not to serve in the military because by going to college instead, I could make a more significant contribution."**

** Translation:  "I'm too big of a sissy to play with the boys because I might get hurt, so I'll stay here and play Barbie with the girls."

So when a guy says that "Since CAP is a non-combatant organization, combat badges of any kind are inappropriate."  That attitude is dismissive of ALL of our service, and equates CAP (Which has a battle history AND currently provides combat support to the Air Force) with Code Pink.

[tarheel gumby]

Well the NLO did not do his profession any favours. One has to wonder if he had any time in the service. I don't think so because of his poor choice of words on his part. I think that Military Awards ,Decorations and Aviation badges should be allowed on the CSU, now the CIB and other related badges probably not. And for the Record I am a veteran of the Army National Guard.   As for the Air Medal the first two were awarded to CAP members by FDR personally.I would think that the NLO would look very very silly taking a member to task the earned that one Serving On Coastal Patrol.

P/S Thank you for your combat service Major.

[NCRblues]

  what the CAP NLO said was reprehensible!! What an insult to everyone who has served or is serving or will serve! Also just as bad was the board letting him ramble. Anyone who has served or is serving is a hero and deserves to be able to wear what the nation gave them as a thank you... angry...

[Cecil DP]

In light of the NLO's interpetation of the regs, I'm glad I retired from CAP.

[Eclipse]

In light of the NLO's interpretation of the regs, I'm glad I retired from CAP.

What Kach is indicating the NLO said was not an interpretation of any "reg", it was a partially correct opinion.  Let's not make this to be more than it is.

He was factually correct in that CAP is a non-combatant service - you can't argue that.  The other part was his opinion, which the board, etc., is fully free to ignore, and I know I for one, on occasion, simply don't engage in conversations when someone says something silly that has no weight.  One should not automatically assume the lack of comment or argument equaled agreement.

Legal Officers don't make policy, regs, or other command decisions, they merely advise, and as of today, this appears to be a decision well above CAPFLT001's paygrade.

[PHall]

If you want USAF light, may I suggest joining the USAFR? 

So the Air Force Reserve is Air Force light? Remind me to tell the guys in the sand for 12 months that they're not in the "real" Air Force.

Major Carrales, if you know not of what you speak of, then please don't speak.

[JohnKachenmeister]

In light of the NLO's interpretation of the regs, I'm glad I retired from CAP.

What Kach is indicating the NLO said was not an interpretation of any "reg", it was a partially correct opinion.  Let's not make this to be more than it is.

He was factually correct in that CAP is a non-combatant service - you can't argue that.  The other part was his opinion, which the board, etc., is fully free to ignore, and I know I for one, on occasion, simply don't engage in conversations when someone says something silly that has no weight.  One should not automatically assume the lack of comment or argument equaled agreement.

Legal Officers don't make policy, regs, or other command decisions, they merely advise, and as of today, this appears to be a decision well above CAPFLT001's paygrade.

You are right, E., in that the NLO was not "Interpreting" a reg, he was advising against a new one.  

You are also right in that CAP is chartered to perform "... Non-combat missions and programs of the Air Force."

What I do not understand, and what I find so insulting is that this provision is being interpreted by the NLO to such an extent that he considers all wear of earned combat awards to be "Inappropriate."  

"Non-combat" does not mean the same as "Pacifist."

A fighter pilot who joins a Guard unit that flies transport aircraft may now be on "Non-cambat" missions, but he does not need to be ashamed of his former combat service.  Similarly, a G.I. who serves in combat and later joins CAP should not have his service be deemed "Inappropriate" by the NLO.

[Major Carrales]

If you want USAF light, may I suggest joining the USAFR? 

So the Air Force Reserve is Air Force light? Remind me to tell the guys in the sand for 12 months that they're not in the "real" Air Force.

Major Carrales, if you know not of what you speak of, then please don't speak.

No, the USAFR is the Air Force Reserve...what some people here want CAP to be (drilling for Senior Members, lots of trumped up "professional development" and the over use of Military protocol...as in trying to run a CAP unit like an ARMY, USAF or Naval unit... on what is basically a civilian manned Auxiliary of the Air Force) is "USAF Light."

As always, you fail to find the meaning (likely clouded by your dislike of my views on CAP).  My point is that people who feel CAP should be "USAF Light" should get their "fix" by joining the USAFR, which is everything they want CAP to be...and more.  You know, like being paid or deployed overseas!"

[JohnKachenmeister]

In light of the NLO's interpretation of the regs, I'm glad I retired from CAP.

What Kach is indicating the NLO said was not an interpretation of any "reg", it was a partially correct opinion.  Let's not make this to be more than it is.

He was factually correct in that CAP is a non-combatant service - you can't argue that.  The other part was his opinion, which the board, etc., is fully free to ignore, and I know I for one, on occasion, simply don't engage in conversations when someone says something silly that has no weight.  One should not automatically assume the lack of comment or argument equaled agreement.

Legal Officers don't make policy, regs, or other command decisions, they merely advise, and as of today, this appears to be a decision well above CAPFLT001's paygrade.

With respect to the non-concurrence by the USAF, I read Col. Hodgkin's remarks, and frankly, I like Russ, but his comment makes no sense.

He talks about confusing CAP members further, yet the proposed regulation, in fact, standardizes the ribbon and badge display between the USAF and CSU's, making it less confusing.

And since the USAF had already weighed in negatively on the issue, for whatever reason, then the NLO's comments were gratuitous, and therefore even more insulting.

[PHall]

If you want USAF light, may I suggest joining the USAFR? 

So the Air Force Reserve is Air Force light? Remind me to tell the guys in the sand for 12 months that they're not in the "real" Air Force.

Major Carrales, if you know not of what you speak of, then please don't speak.

No, the USAFR is the Air Force Reserve...what some people here want CAP to be (drilling for Senior Members, lots of trumped up "professional development" and the over use of Military protocol...as in trying to run a CAP unit like an ARMY, USAF or Naval unit... on what is basically a civilian manned Auxiliary of the Air Force) is "USAF Light."

As always, you fail to find the meaning (likely clouded by your dislike of my views on CAP).  My point is that people who feel CAP should be "USAF Light" should get their "fix" by joining the USAFR, which is everything they want CAP to be...and more.  You know, like being paid or deployed overseas!"

I served for 18 years in the Air Force Reserve, so yeah, I take a dim view of people putting it down.

And you know, my Reserve unit was/is as busy if not busier then any Active Duty unit with the same mission. (Strategic Airlift in C-141's. The unit now flys C-17's)

But you wouldn't know that, since you haven't been there.

On the other hand, I've never been a teacher, so I don't pass judgement on them since I don't know enough about teachers to judge them.

[Major Carrales]

If you want USAF light, may I suggest joining the USAFR? 

So the Air Force Reserve is Air Force light? Remind me to tell the guys in the sand for 12 months that they're not in the "real" Air Force.

Major Carrales, if you know not of what you speak of, then please don't speak.

No, the USAFR is the Air Force Reserve...what some people here want CAP to be (drilling for Senior Members, lots of trumped up "professional development" and the over use of Military protocol...as in trying to run a CAP unit like an ARMY, USAF or Naval unit... on what is basically a civilian manned Auxiliary of the Air Force) is "USAF Light."

As always, you fail to find the meaning (likely clouded by your dislike of my views on CAP).  My point is that people who feel CAP should be "USAF Light" should get their "fix" by joining the USAFR, which is everything they want CAP to be...and more.  You know, like being paid or deployed overseas!"

I served for 18 years in the Air Force Reserve, so yeah, I take a dim view of people putting it down.

And you know, my Reserve unit was/is as busy if not busier then any Active Duty unit with the same mission. (Strategic Airlift in C-141's. The unit now flys C-17's)

But you wouldn't know that, since you haven't been there.

On the other hand, I've never been a teacher, so I don't pass judgement on them since I don't know enough about teachers to judge them.

Again, read my post.  I am not puting down the USAFR, I am suggesting that CAP Officers that want more than what CAP offers join the USAFR  as opposed to chaning CAP into something it is not.

SO, if you want to be disingenuous...are you saying that I am less of a CAP Officer because I have never served?  Again, you treat us like second class citizens...Flying Pig take note of this.

[Trung Si Ma]

And you know, my Reserve unit was/is as busy if not busier then any Active Duty unit with the same mission. (Strategic Airlift in C-141's. The unit now flys C-17's)

And I do know - for a fact - that any time the 82nd wanted to make sure that the aircraft got to the right place, at the right time, for something really important, we asked for USAFR or ANG crews and birds at the air allocation meetings.  Those boys (and girls) flew more often then the "real" air scouts and were generally there because they wanted to be and had real pride in doing their job.

And yeah, I know that its a fact because I was doing those "inappropriate" things myself.