I need to attend an anger management class today.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Whether or not someone gets arrested is not terribly relevant to the fact that some of the services have clearly restricted the wear of their stuff on civilian clothes.  Should not CAP honor the wishes of those services? 

Because... once they gave it to me, it isn't their stuff anymore.

For example:  Who's regulation should I follow when wearing the Vietnam Service Medal?  The Navy was what I was in when I earned it, but I spent more time in the Army.  Even when I could wear the AF uniform, the AF's award precedents is slightly different with some ribbons than the Army's.  Whose precedent do I follow?  If you are correct, and the issuing service retains control over wear, we would have a real Charlie Foxtrot.

Service regulations pertain to servicemen in that branch.  It would be a real distortion of the law to apply service regulations through the Stolen Valor Act to earned awards by veterans.

[Major Carrales]

Whether or not someone gets arrested is not terribly relevant to the fact that some of the services have clearly restricted the wear of their stuff on civilian clothes.  Should not CAP honor the wishes of those services? 

I am tempted to say, "Let the respect be mutual, then we'll talk."  But, I understand that we are respected, at least officially, by the USAF.  Their restriciton on CAP uniforms should really be a non-issue in that it is not an "end of the world" issue.  I would be more corncerned on how CAP is slotted in their overall "force" as it relatest to having us functional and effective.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I love all this talk about vets can get themselves arrested for wearing earned military decorations.  First off, its not ILLEGAL for a vet to wear their medals.   No vet has ever been arrested, cited or contacted by law enforcement for doing so.  No law enforcement agency ANYWHERE is going to arrest or even care about a guy/gal wearing their medals.  Spirit of the Law vs. Letter of the Law is what is recognized.
As a cop, I've worn my USMC ribbons on my uniform.  I see vets everywhere wearing their medals on suit jackets at functions.  On top of that, I was at a dinner and spoke to an FBI Agent who was wearing his mini-medal rack on his suit coat.  And we weren't talking about his medals.

When I see people with an issue usually (not always) it comes from those who don't have them.  Our military medals and qualification badges definitely have a place on our uniforms. Corporate or USAF.  It adds a lot of credibility to our organization when dealing with the military, or even Law Enforcement Agencies, many of which are vets.  We get each other.  For those of you who were not in the military, Honestly, I wouldnt expect you to get it.  And I dont mean that rude. 
Its no different than me being on a mission with CAP and talking with some Border Patrol Helicopter pilots. At first, they pretty much blew me off.  After I told them I was also an LE Pilot in addition to my CAP duties, it was immediately like we had known each other for years and actually began asking a lot about CAP.  Right?  Wrong?  Its just how it is.
I get treated very different by military members after they notice my military ribbons, vs a member who has none.  I was approached at March AFB by two Marines who asked me "Sir, I know what CAP is, but why are you wearing USMC ribbons also?" Initially, I think they were calling me out.
I spent 30 minutes talking to these two about CAP and ended up having lunch with them.  When we were done they had a completely different impression of what CAP was.  They thought CAP was a different form of JROTC.  Sorry, its a rite of passage we've earned, that is recognized by others who have also.  Common bond if you will.
Now, if you are in the military or a veteran, and you feel different.  That is your privilege that you have earned.  What I don't like is members who were never in the military, regardless of why you were not, telling me that my military decorations have no place.

In the words of Scotty, "Don't ya think ya should rephrase that, laddy?"  While I agree that US military ribbons should be worn, your above logic seems to insinuate that a person with no prior military service needn't be respected by Law Enforcement or active duty military because we "simply don't get it."

Sorry, our credibility should be based on what we can do, not what our membership did outside of CAP.  CAP should rest on the laurels of its accomplishments.  We are a volunteer force in the tradition of those that assembled on the Green at Lexington, the countless Civil Defense personnel that served as Air Raid Wardens et all for the war effort and an organization that has done a lot of good for a lot of people.

If you think works like that are BS, then you miss the point.  That point being "be more proud of what you are than ashamed of what you are not." 

Yes, I have not served in the military...but I do not subscribe to your contention that all of those like me are somehow "second class" or that we have some agenda to prevent veterans from wearing their ribbons.  I do not subscribe to the opposite that Veterans seek to diminish the CAP issued ribbons because they feel they have no merit.

I greatly respect Law Enforcement, the US Servicemen and fire fighters for their service.  Prehaps, one day, CAP (and teachers for that matter) might earn the same respect.

My vote is and always will be that US military ribbons should be worn.

It is lucky for us that the volunteers who assembled on the Green at Concord did not consider George Washington's service in the French and Indian War to be "Inappropriate."

[JohnKachenmeister]

Whether or not someone gets arrested is not terribly relevant to the fact that some of the services have clearly restricted the wear of their stuff on civilian clothes.  Should not CAP honor the wishes of those services? 

I am tempted to say, "Let the respect be mutual, then we'll talk."  But, I understand that we are respected, at least officially, by the USAF.  Their restriciton on CAP uniforms should really be a non-issue in that it is not an "end of the world" issue.  I would be more corncerned on how CAP is slotted in their overall "force" as it relatest to having us functional and effective.

Sparky:

It isn't the DECISION that has got me riled today.  It is the attitude of at least one member of the National Board, the NLO, who said that CAP members wearing earned combat awards is "Inappropriate."  I swear, if he had said that to my face I might have punched his lights out.  I was really that mad!

[Major Carrales]

Whether or not someone gets arrested is not terribly relevant to the fact that some of the services have clearly restricted the wear of their stuff on civilian clothes.  Should not CAP honor the wishes of those services? 

I am tempted to say, "Let the respect be mutual, then we'll talk."  But, I understand that we are respected, at least officially, by the USAF.  Their restriciton on CAP uniforms should really be a non-issue in that it is not an "end of the world" issue.  I would be more corncerned on how CAP is slotted in their overall "force" as it relatest to having us functional and effective.

Sparky:

It isn't the DECISION that has got me riled today.  It is the attitude of at least one member of the National Board, the NLO, who said that CAP members wearing earned combat awards is "Inappropriate."  I swear, if he had said that to my face I might have punched his lights out.  I was really that mad!

Kach, I can see that this really bothers you.  Please don't "get sick" over it.  Sometimes people just think that they can say whatever they want without any thought to the consequences of those words.  Thus it is offensive.

Might I suggest the following, submitting an official inquiry up the chain asking for a proper definition of "Inappropriate" in this occasions.  Maybe these matters are not as clear as they need to be.

If it turns out to be benign, we all win.  If it turns out to me some "anti-military" agendism, then maybe action is the answer.

[Flying Pig]

I love all this talk about vets can get themselves arrested for wearing earned military decorations.  First off, its not ILLEGAL for a vet to wear their medals.   No vet has ever been arrested, cited or contacted by law enforcement for doing so.  No law enforcement agency ANYWHERE is going to arrest or even care about a guy/gal wearing their medals.  Spirit of the Law vs. Letter of the Law is what is recognized.
As a cop, I've worn my USMC ribbons on my uniform.  I see vets everywhere wearing their medals on suit jackets at functions.  On top of that, I was at a dinner and spoke to an FBI Agent who was wearing his mini-medal rack on his suit coat.  And we weren't talking about his medals.

When I see people with an issue usually (not always) it comes from those who don't have them.  Our military medals and qualification badges definitely have a place on our uniforms. Corporate or USAF.  It adds a lot of credibility to our organization when dealing with the military, or even Law Enforcement Agencies, many of which are vets.  We get each other.  For those of you who were not in the military, Honestly, I wouldnt expect you to get it.  And I dont mean that rude. 
Its no different than me being on a mission with CAP and talking with some Border Patrol Helicopter pilots. At first, they pretty much blew me off.  After I told them I was also an LE Pilot in addition to my CAP duties, it was immediately like we had known each other for years and actually began asking a lot about CAP.  Right?  Wrong?  Its just how it is.
I get treated very different by military members after they notice my military ribbons, vs a member who has none.  I was approached at March AFB by two Marines who asked me "Sir, I know what CAP is, but why are you wearing USMC ribbons also?" Initially, I think they were calling me out.
I spent 30 minutes talking to these two about CAP and ended up having lunch with them.  When we were done they had a completely different impression of what CAP was.  They thought CAP was a different form of JROTC.  Sorry, its a rite of passage we've earned, that is recognized by others who have also.  Common bond if you will.
Now, if you are in the military or a veteran, and you feel different.  That is your privilege that you have earned.  What I don't like is members who were never in the military, regardless of why you were not, telling me that my military decorations have no place.

In the words of Scotty, "Don't ya think ya should rephrase that, laddy?"  While I agree that US military ribbons should be worn, your above logic seems to insinuate that a person with no prior military service needn't be respected by Law Enforcement or active duty military because we "simply don't get it."

Sorry, our credibility should be based on what we can do, not what our membership did outside of CAP.  CAP should rest on the laurels of its accomplishments.  We are a volunteer force in the tradition of those that assembled on the Green at Lexington, the countless Civil Defense personnel that served as Air Raid Wardens et all for the war effort and an organization that has done a lot of good for a lot of people.

If you think works like that are BS, then you miss the point.  That point being "be more proud of what you are than ashamed of what you are not." 

Yes, I have not served in the military...but I do not subscribe to your contention that all of those like me are somehow "second class" or that we have some agenda to prevent veterans from wearing their ribbons.  I do not subscribe to the opposite that Veterans seek to diminish the CAP issued ribbons because they feel they have no merit.

I greatly respect Law Enforcement, the US Servicemen and fire fighters for their service.  Prehaps, one day, CAP (and teachers for that matter) might earn the same respect.

My vote is and always will be that US military ribbons should be worn.

Could you go back and point out where I said you or anyone else was a second class citizen? 

[JohnKachenmeister]

Whether or not someone gets arrested is not terribly relevant to the fact that some of the services have clearly restricted the wear of their stuff on civilian clothes.  Should not CAP honor the wishes of those services? 

I am tempted to say, "Let the respect be mutual, then we'll talk."  But, I understand that we are respected, at least officially, by the USAF.  Their restriciton on CAP uniforms should really be a non-issue in that it is not an "end of the world" issue.  I would be more corncerned on how CAP is slotted in their overall "force" as it relatest to having us functional and effective.

Sparky:

It isn't the DECISION that has got me riled today.  It is the attitude of at least one member of the National Board, the NLO, who said that CAP members wearing earned combat awards is "Inappropriate."  I swear, if he had said that to my face I might have punched his lights out.  I was really that mad!

Kach, I can see that this really bothers you.  Please don't "get sick" over it.  Sometimes people just think that they can say whatever they want without any thought to the consequences of those words.  Thus it is offensive.

Might I suggest the following, submitting an official inquiry up the chain asking for a proper definition of "Inappropriate" in this occasions.  Maybe these matters are not as clear as they need to be.

If it turns out to be benign, we all win.  If it turns out to me some "anti-military" agendism, then maybe action is the answer.

I don't need a definition of "Inappropriate," since I've had it explained to me several times in various counseling statements.

Things I have done that have been called "Inappropriate:"

1.   Describing, in vivid detail, a particularly satisfying bowel movement during "Happy Hour" in the Ft. Harrison Officers' Club.

2.   Calling a female supervisor a "Sultry wench" at an office Christmas party, and predicting that, given the opportunity, I would be able to crack her cold and detached exterior and make her scream with delight and abandonment.

3.   Serving my country in combat in Vietnam.

[Flying Pig]

If our membership outside of CAP should have no bearing, why do we advertise members who are Thunderbird Pilots?  Millionaire business owners? Astronauts?  Fighter Pilots?  Military Officers?  We do it to bring credibility to our organization by saying "These are the kind of people who join CAP."  Every organization does it.  

[MIKE]

This thread is getting "inappropriate."

[Major Carrales]

Could you go back and point out where I said you or anyone else was a second class citizen? 

I get treated very different by military members after they notice my military ribbons, vs a member who has none.

That places me in a seconday position to you.

[RiverAux]

I think that the part of the National Legal Officer's statement regarding the wear of combat-related badges being inappopriate for CAP was probably more of a personal statement of belief rather than an actual legal opinion on that issue.  As we've seen on this board many times, there are some people in CAP who would prefer that we have no obvious associations at all with the military and they're entitled to that opinion.  I think that in this case the NLO probably should have stuck just to the legal facts.  

[Major Carrales]

Whether or not someone gets arrested is not terribly relevant to the fact that some of the services have clearly restricted the wear of their stuff on civilian clothes.  Should not CAP honor the wishes of those services? 

I am tempted to say, "Let the respect be mutual, then we'll talk."  But, I understand that we are respected, at least officially, by the USAF.  Their restriciton on CAP uniforms should really be a non-issue in that it is not an "end of the world" issue.  I would be more corncerned on how CAP is slotted in their overall "force" as it relatest to having us functional and effective.

Sparky:

It isn't the DECISION that has got me riled today.  It is the attitude of at least one member of the National Board, the NLO, who said that CAP members wearing earned combat awards is "Inappropriate."  I swear, if he had said that to my face I might have punched his lights out.  I was really that mad!

Kach, I can see that this really bothers you.  Please don't "get sick" over it.  Sometimes people just think that they can say whatever they want without any thought to the consequences of those words.  Thus it is offensive.

Might I suggest the following, submitting an official inquiry up the chain asking for a proper definition of "Inappropriate" in this occasions.  Maybe these matters are not as clear as they need to be.

If it turns out to be benign, we all win.  If it turns out to me some "anti-military" agendism, then maybe action is the answer.

I don't need a definition of "Inappropriate," since I've had it explained to me several times in various counseling statements.

Things I have done that have been called "Inappropriate:"

1.   Describing, in vivid detail, a particularly satisfying bowel movement during "Happy Hour" in the Ft. Harrison Officers' Club.

2.   Calling a female supervisor a "Sultry wench" at an office Christmas party, and predicting that, given the opportunity, I would be able to crack her cold and detached exterior and make her scream with delight and abandonment.

3.   Serving my country in combat in Vietnam.

Point well made, KACH.  Extremely well made.  I think I'm angry now.

[Flying Pig]

Could you go back and point out where I said you or anyone else was a second class citizen? 

I get treated very different by military members after they notice my military ribbons, vs a member who has none.

That places me in a seconday position to you.

Yeah, but no different than if I was standing next to you at a teachers conference.

[Major Carrales]

Could you go back and point out where I said you or anyone else was a second class citizen? 

I get treated very different by military members after they notice my military ribbons, vs a member who has none.

That places me in a seconday position to you.

Yeah, but no different than if I was standing next to you at a teachers conference.

Good thing were are friends...   It would be a bit of putting the cart before the horse if I were to enlist or seek a commission now just to have an active duty ribbon or two to be able to share the same place in like with you during Hurricane relief.

[JohnKachenmeister]

It may well be that he was expressing his personal view.  I notice that he not only mis-stated the nature of our organization (we, in fact, were a combat organization shortly after our inception, and we continue to perform combat-support missions for the Air Force) but also did not cite any particular law in his non-concurrence.  But he used his position as NLO to bash veterans, and the rest of the NB just sat there and went along with it.

[RiverAux]

To be fair to him, we are very explicitly NOT a combat organization today no matter what happened 65 years ago.  I don't think that it is relevant to the issue since wearing a combat-related badge somehow doesn't turn you, or the organization, into a combatant. 

[wingnut55]

Interesting point

So if a CAP pilot earned an Air Medal flying for CAP in WWII, he would be in violation of regs if he wore it on a corporate Uniform.

The problem I have is all of the bling that CAP awards each other for things that the active duty people laugh at us for. We are way out of line giving ribbons for completion of home study courses.

but to deny a military medal for valor is strange. But I know of many CAP members who never served in the military so all they know are the home study course completion ribbons.

wow am I going to get it on this one.

So John have you heard from Marty lately?

[JohnKachenmeister]

Interesting point

So if a CAP pilot earned an Air Medal flying for CAP in WWII, he would be in violation of regs if he wore it on a corporate Uniform.

The problem I have is all of the bling that CAP awards each other for things that the active duty people laugh at us for. We are way out of line giving ribbons for completion of home study courses.

but to deny a military medal for valor is strange. But I know of many CAP members who never served in the military so all they know are the home study course completion ribbons.

wow am I going to get it on this one.

So John have you heard from Marty lately?

No, but I have been busy with my firearms instruction business.  I've had to move a lot of CAP stuff to the back burner.

[Eclipse]

If our membership outside of CAP should have no bearing, why do we advertise members who are Thunderbird Pilots?  Millionaire business owners? Astronauts?  Fighter Pilots?  Military Officers?  We do it to bring credibility to our organization by saying "These are the kind of people who join CAP."  Every organization does it. 

Yes, they do - its called "marketing" and those who are familiar with "marketing" understand that it has little connection to reality.

Prior military service is no guarantee of success in CAP, in many cases it can actually be a hindrance as they don't always understand the dynamic of leading and motivating volunteers. 

Kach - the remark was stupid, and insensitive.  If its causing you angst, write a professional letter with appropriate /cc's, and move on.

Don't equate a single remark with any particular bias or organization-wide attitude.

With that said, recognize that CAP has to serve many masters, is rife with conflicting regulations, and we're probably lucky at this point that we can still wear military-style uniforms at all, thanks to the seeming inability of many of our members to comply with even the most basic of rules.

For every tight-n-tight veteran that configs his uniform with a micrometer and a stack of regs and ICL's, I'll show you 5 who are still wearing USAF uniforms though they are clearly out of weight, grooming, or both.  For some inexplicable reason the USAF husbands their uniforms and insignia in regards to CAP in a way which isn't even consistent anymore with most other services. (i.e. many have dropped height-weight in favor of performance-based metrics)  That's part of the game.  Absent CAP, its not like you're going to be in any military uniform at all, certainly not in performance of actual duties in federal service.

I agree its silly not to allow the same military ribbons and badges on the CSU as on the USAF-style combos, but to take such offense over something that is a long standing-policy in CAP is just going to cause you excess blood pressure to no gain.

As to the question of whether the various services "own" their insignia, uniform parts, etc., one only needs to look at the recent NB discussion regarding adding a black sweater to the CSU, and the fact that consensus was that Army regs preclude it.  Much of the interoperability of the services depends on the mutual cooperation regarding what some might consider "administrivia" - the AFI's for example that require other services to offer us various levels of resources and support.  Without adherence to those and reciprocal agreements, CAP would have a hard time operating.

Want us all to get a little more credibility with the uniforms, and in turn perhaps some relaxation on the regulatory-stranglehold?  How about we put the same "100% compliance" effort and emphasis on uniforms, customs, and courtesies, that was expended for the wing banker program.  Probably because 1/2 the senior membership would rise up about CAP being too "military", etc. (blah, blah).

A couple of years of our showing the USAF we actually respect the uniform and all that it means would be a lot more effective that random whining about this badge, that braid, and which hat we can wear.

[Eclipse]

Interesting point

So if a CAP pilot earned an Air Medal flying for CAP in WWII, he would be in violation of regs if he wore it on a corporate Uniform.

No, its a spurious point of no value to the conversation - this is about the average vet who is actually serving CAP today, not the handful of WWII vets who might show up to an annual banquet or memorial day service.

... I know of many CAP members who never served in the military so all they know are the home study course completion ribbons.

Your regular habit of insulting the entire membership by the disparaging comments you regularly make about CAP show exactly how much respect you have for the organization.  I have no idea why people maintain a membership in an organization for which they have no respect.

Common sense says the day you feel that way is the day both you and CAP would be better served by your spending time elsewhere.