I need to attend an anger management class today.

[JohnKachenmeister]

In 1966, I left the CAP and joined the armed forces.  The country was at war.  In 1969, it was my turn to go into combat, and I went to Vietnam as an E-3.  My promotion and back pay caught up with me in a month or so, and I served my tour as an E-4.  I earned the National Defense Medal, the Vietnam Service Medal, the Vietnam Cross of Gallantry, and the Vietnam Campaign Medal. 

I did my job as a Navy hospital corpsman.  I was not a "Hero" except when compared to other members of my generation who dishonorably shirked their duty to defend the United States.  (There were a lot of them, too.)

In 1978, my National Guard unit was mobilized to deal with a severe blizzard.  I was an Army MP by then, and rescued dozens of folks who were stranded in their cars and in buildings.  We worked with the local police and were on duty for 11 days until the situation was stable.  The highlight of my service was capturing a mental who went buggy in his house, and began shooting at people with a rifle.  Again, I was not a hero, but again, I did the job that was asked of me.  I was awarded the Humanitarian Service Medal.

In 1986, I was on TDY at Fort Sheridan, Illinois.  After a week, I took my clerk out to dinner to celebrate successfully completing a mission that was very labor-intensive.  Returning to post, we encountered a vehicle accident, and stopped to help.  We found two men, both of whom had hit their heads hard on the windshield, and were now choking on their own blood.  (Seat belts, people!)  The lifesaving procedure, repositioning the head carefully, applying gentle cervical traction, and clearing the blood as best you can from the mouth and nose is basic Medic 101 stuff, but if not quickly applied will turn an injury crash into a fatal one.  We climbed into the wreck, did what we had to do, and held their heads until the paramedics showed up.  This time they DID say we were heroes, and gave each of the the Army Commendation Medal for non-combat heroism.

Now I am on short-final for Runway 60, and losing weight is harder than when I was simply "Over-50."  As such, I am not welcome to wear the Air Force uniform.  An alternate uniform was designed for us fat guys. 

The National Board had a chance to allow us chubby guys the right to wear the simple tokens of our country's gratitude on that uniform.  We are allowed to wear those same awards on police, fire, and similar uniforms on occasions, but it seems that nobody in CAP is interested in the service that I have given over a lifetime.

In fact, the National Legal Officer said:  "We are a non-combatant organization, and as such combat devices of all kinds are inappropriate for wear."

Well, SORRR-EEEE!  I guess I should have considered that when I got my orders to Vietnam.  Maybe I should have joined the NLO in NOT going into combat so that the organization that I have been involved with would not be so ashamed of me that they call my awards "Inappropriate."

I THOUGHT that I joined the Auxiliary of the United States Air Force, and the ONLY military auxiliary in America with a battle history.  I was wrong.  Apparently I joined the Air Arm of the Woodstock Nation. 

Peace.  Love.  Free dope.

Jerks!

[RiverAux]

According to the agenda CAP-USAF said that they wouldn't approve that particular suggestion in any case, so I wouldn't blame the NLO (no matter how silly his comments). 

[JohnKachenmeister]

His comment was a flash-point with me. 

By the way?  Where WAS his sorry butt during the Vietnam War?  In college growing his hair long and bad-mouthing his country?

[RiverAux]

The whole point of the corporate uniform is to have a uniform distinct from the Air Force and allowing military badges on it would seem to work against that.  However, since we're putting military rank insignia on them, "confusion" is going to occur anyway, so why even bothering worrying about ribbons and badges.  The corporate uniform may not be an military uniform, but everything about it is very much like a military uniform.  Heck, our "Air Force style" BDUs are more different from the Air Force BDUs (when they had them), then the CAP corporate uniforms are from our AF style uniforms. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

My personal view is that the ribbons and medals were issued to ME, not to the CAP or the Air Force. 

But what do I know.  I was in combat, so therefore I am "Inappropriate" in CAP. 

[PaulR]

I THOUGHT that I joined the Auxiliary of the United States Air Force, and the ONLY military auxiliary in America with a battle history.  I was wrong.  Apparently I joined the Air Arm of the Woodstock Nation. 

Peace.  Love.  Free dope.

Jerks!

I have noticed this very attitude as well.  We have earned the right to wear the tokens of appreciation rendered by our nation.  It angers me to think that a US military sponsored axillary would have an issue of them being worn on their uniforms, regardless of the member's weight.  Your experience makes me angry...  Hopefully someone will change it soon.

BTW, veterans and retirees(not in service anymore) have the right to wear their military medals and badges on civilian clothing!  What is wrong with it being worn on the Cooperate uniform, when CAP ribbon bars and etc can be worn?

I agree with Johns point 100%.  His awards were bestowed upon him.  Not this branch of service.  If members of the FD and PD are allowed to wear military decorations on their uniforms, why not members of the CAP wearing their cooperate uniforms?     

In my opinion, that regulation is a slap in the face to veterans who risked and dedicated their lives to aid in the preservation of this nation...

[PHall]

You can still wear your military decorations on a uniform, the uniform of the service that you retired from.

For stuff like funerals and Memorial Day ceremonies you can wear your military uniform, either the current one or the one that was worn when you retired.

[PaulR]

Mr Hall,

I understand what you are saying, but why not the Corporate Uniform as well?  Military awards can be worn on state and city FD and PD uniforms as well as civilian clothes(by members no longer in service).  Why will the Federally backed CAP not allow them on their Corporate uniform, where CAP ribbons and badges are worn?

[jimmydeanno]

Wear the aviator and wear your Vietnam Veteran hat with the ribbons embroidered on it.  Problem solved.

[MIKE]

I understand what you are saying, but why not the Corporate Uniform as well?  Military awards can be worn on state and city FD and PD uniforms as well as civilian clothes(by members no longer in service).  Why will the Federally backed CAP not allow them on their Corporate uniform, where CAP ribbons and badges are worn?

It's not CAP that doesn't allow it... Your assumption doesn't jive with some services regulations for wear.  I posted the relevant cites for each service  a while ago, I just have to find the thread.

Edit: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=5575.0

[billford1]

This corporate uniform business just never seems to end. Those in CAP/USAF  who oversee the CAP rule makers should take a long look at the usefulness of old regulations in place. I think this guy should be allowed to wear his military service decorations.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I understand what you are saying, but why not the Corporate Uniform as well?  Military awards can be worn on state and city FD and PD uniforms as well as civilian clothes(by members no longer in service).  Why will the Federally backed CAP not allow them on their Corporate uniform, where CAP ribbons and badges are worn?

It's not CAP that doesn't allow it... Your assumption doesn't jive with some services regulations for wear.  I posted the relevant cites for each service  a while ago, I just have to find the thread.

Edit: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=5575.0

What made me angry was the comment made in his non-concurrence by the NLO.  He also made the remark that CAP members could be criminally charged for wearing combat/military awards, but to do that one would also have to charge every VFW member and Legionaire who pinned his ribbon rack and his jump wings on his hat.  The FBI doesn't have time to pursue even the most serious violations of the Stolen Valor Act.  How much time does the NLO think they have to harrass old veterans? 

[RiverAux]

I think you're missing the appropriate military regulations which do restrict when military awards can be worn on civilian clothing to certain occassions.  These in fact would seem to make it illegal to wear them on a regular basis as part of the CAP corporate uniform. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

Wear the aviator and wear your Vietnam Veteran hat with the ribbons embroidered on it.  Problem solved.

That isn't a bad idea!  Except I'll wear my "Dysfunctional Veteran" hat with my ribbon rack pinned to the side.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I think you're missing the appropriate military regulations which do restrict when military awards can be worn on civilian clothing to certain occassions.  These in fact would seem to make it illegal to wear them on a regular basis as part of the CAP corporate uniform. 

Please explain how a service regulation can be enforced upon a person who is no longer a member of that service.

[RiverAux]

Because of the federal law restricting when military uniforms and insignia can be worn which I believe does reference applicable military regulations.

[RADIOMAN015]

I tend to believe also that military decorations earned should be able to be worn on the CAP corporate type uniforms.  Both the VFW & American Legion "uniforms" allow their members to wear their earned ribbons.  No one has gotten into any legal problems for doing this.

I really don't see the USAF having ANY authority over CAP's corporate type uniforms.  IF they are distinctively different than USAF's military uniforms  (which is only what the AF requires), there's no reason why a former/retired military member can't wear his/her earned ribbons. 

HOWEVER, as far as devices go (combat badges, corps designations, etc), I would say no to that ONLY ribbons for awards/service time.

Seems in CAP a lot of time is spent on uniform issues.  Sometimes I think we'd be better off to just go with a 3 or 4 simple corporate uniform designation & prohibit ANY AF type uniform from being worn.  Let's look at the "least cost" uniform alternatives for all.

RM   

[Flying Pig]

I love all this talk about vets can get themselves arrested for wearing earned military decorations.  First off, its not ILLEGAL for a vet to wear their medals.   No vet has ever been arrested, cited or contacted by law enforcement for doing so.  No law enforcement agency ANYWHERE is going to arrest or even care about a guy/gal wearing their medals.  Spirit of the Law vs. Letter of the Law is what is recognized.
As a cop, I've worn my USMC ribbons on my uniform.  I see vets everywhere wearing their medals on suit jackets at functions.  On top of that, I was at a dinner and spoke to an FBI Agent who was wearing his mini-medal rack on his suit coat.  And we weren't talking about his medals.

When I see people with an issue usually (not always) it comes from those who don't have them.  Our military medals and qualification badges definitely have a place on our uniforms. Corporate or USAF.  It adds a lot of credibility to our organization when dealing with the military, or even Law Enforcement Agencies, many of which are vets.  We get each other.  For those of you who were not in the military, Honestly, I wouldnt expect you to get it.  And I dont mean that rude. 
Its no different than me being on a mission with CAP and talking with some Border Patrol Helicopter pilots. At first, they pretty much blew me off.  After I told them I was also an LE Pilot in addition to my CAP duties, it was immediately like we had known each other for years and actually began asking a lot about CAP.  Right?  Wrong?  Its just how it is.
I get treated very different by military members after they notice my military ribbons, vs a member who has none.  I was approached at March AFB by two Marines who asked me "Sir, I know what CAP is, but why are you wearing USMC ribbons also?" Initially, I think they were calling me out.
I spent 30 minutes talking to these two about CAP and ended up having lunch with them.  When we were done they had a completely different impression of what CAP was.  They thought CAP was a different form of JROTC.  Sorry, its a rite of passage we've earned, that is recognized by others who have also.  Common bond if you will.
Now, if you are in the military or a veteran, and you feel different.  That is your privilege that you have earned.  What I don't like is members who were never in the military, regardless of why you were not, telling me that my military decorations have no place.

[RiverAux]

Whether or not someone gets arrested is not terribly relevant to the fact that some of the services have clearly restricted the wear of their stuff on civilian clothes.  Should not CAP honor the wishes of those services? 

[Major Carrales]

I love all this talk about vets can get themselves arrested for wearing earned military decorations.  First off, its not ILLEGAL for a vet to wear their medals.   No vet has ever been arrested, cited or contacted by law enforcement for doing so.  No law enforcement agency ANYWHERE is going to arrest or even care about a guy/gal wearing their medals.  Spirit of the Law vs. Letter of the Law is what is recognized.
As a cop, I've worn my USMC ribbons on my uniform.  I see vets everywhere wearing their medals on suit jackets at functions.  On top of that, I was at a dinner and spoke to an FBI Agent who was wearing his mini-medal rack on his suit coat.  And we weren't talking about his medals.

When I see people with an issue usually (not always) it comes from those who don't have them.  Our military medals and qualification badges definitely have a place on our uniforms. Corporate or USAF.  It adds a lot of credibility to our organization when dealing with the military, or even Law Enforcement Agencies, many of which are vets.  We get each other.  For those of you who were not in the military, Honestly, I wouldnt expect you to get it.  And I dont mean that rude. 
Its no different than me being on a mission with CAP and talking with some Border Patrol Helicopter pilots. At first, they pretty much blew me off.  After I told them I was also an LE Pilot in addition to my CAP duties, it was immediately like we had known each other for years and actually began asking a lot about CAP.  Right?  Wrong?  Its just how it is.
I get treated very different by military members after they notice my military ribbons, vs a member who has none.  I was approached at March AFB by two Marines who asked me "Sir, I know what CAP is, but why are you wearing USMC ribbons also?" Initially, I think they were calling me out.
I spent 30 minutes talking to these two about CAP and ended up having lunch with them.  When we were done they had a completely different impression of what CAP was.  They thought CAP was a different form of JROTC.  Sorry, its a rite of passage we've earned, that is recognized by others who have also.  Common bond if you will.
Now, if you are in the military or a veteran, and you feel different.  That is your privilege that you have earned.  What I don't like is members who were never in the military, regardless of why you were not, telling me that my military decorations have no place.

In the words of Scotty, "Don't ya think ya should rephrase that, laddy?"  While I agree that US military ribbons should be worn, your above logic seems to insinuate that a person with no prior military service needn't be respected by Law Enforcement or active duty military because we "simply don't get it."

Sorry, our credibility should be based on what we can do, not what our membership did outside of CAP.  CAP should rest on the laurels of its accomplishments.  We are a volunteer force in the tradition of those that assembled on the Green at Lexington, the countless Civil Defense personnel that served as Air Raid Wardens et all for the war effort and an organization that has done a lot of good for a lot of people.

If you think works like that are BS, then you miss the point.  That point being "be more proud of what you are than ashamed of what you are not." 

Yes, I have not served in the military...but I do not subscribe to your contention that all of those like me are somehow "second class" or that we have some agenda to prevent veterans from wearing their ribbons.  I do not subscribe to the opposite that Veterans seek to diminish the CAP issued ribbons because they feel they have no merit.

I greatly respect Law Enforcement, the US Servicemen and fire fighters for their service.  Prehaps, one day, CAP (and teachers for that matter) might earn the same respect.

My vote is and always will be that US military ribbons should be worn.