Opinions on NB uniform proposals

[Eclipse]

Why do we need military decorations on a CAP uniform at all?  Police and Fire departments issue ribbons but you don't see their military service ribbons on those uniforms.

What purpose does it serve to artificially grow the ribbon rack?  You see it all the time, shiny-new CAP butter bars with a 2-inch stack, sometimes without anything CAP in there.

Your ribbons tell your story to people who know what they are.  At a glance I can pretty much tell where you've been and what you've done.  Not so with something from some other service.  Yes, it tells me you served, somewhere, sometime, somehow. However in most cases that service doesn't have a whole lot of "right now" relevance in CAP.

"I earned them, I should be able to wear them!"

You didn't earn them in CAP, and the have no relevance here...

I'm not advocating they be removed, only asking why they are there to start with.

[Hawk200]

Its a military-style uniform, and the intention was to allow for a military-look and cut for members who are in grooming except for weight. 

I agree, it is a military style uniform. Doesn't change the fact that it isn't one.

The issue with hair and beards is the subjective nature of what people would think is "too long".  Give then a 1-inch beard and those with two-inchs of hair will complain, and call the guys with a ruler checking uniform stasi.

True. But there is precedent for such uniforms, the Public Health Service. They allow beards, and even have a similar double breasted coat design. I'd say follow theirs instead of just an arbitrary rule. 

According to their directives: "Facial Hair. If a beard and/or mustache is worn, it shall be neatly trimmed and groomed at all times, so as to avoid a ragged appearance. A beard may be either full or partial; however, patches or spots of facial hair are not considered a beard and are not authorized. The bulk of a beard (the distance that the mass of the facial hair protrudes from the skin) shall not exceed one-half inch, and the length of individual facial hair shall not exceed one inch.

As for the "stasi", the same can be easily said of hair length regulations. The thing is that there has to be a line drawn somewhere. Following a given precedent on beards is probably a smarter way to go. Make people aware when they join that there are standards to be adhered to. Period. No ignoring regs because you didn't read the fine print.

How do we know that this wasn't done decades ago? 

We don't. So we ask now.

[Hawk200]

Before I check on something else, does anyone have a link to the upcoming National Board agenda? Would kinda like to read it.

[Eclipse]

Its a military-style uniform, and the intention was to allow for a military-look and cut for members who are in grooming except for weight. 

I agree, it is a military style uniform. Doesn't change the fact that it isn't one.

Actually, nothing CAP members wear is a military uniform.  Service dress, flight suits, BDU's, are all military styled uniforms.

[RiverAux]

Why do we need military decorations on a CAP uniform at all?  Police and Fire departments issue ribbons but you don't see their military service ribbons on those uniforms.

What purpose does it serve to artificially grow the ribbon rack?  You see it all the time, shiny-new CAP butter bars with a 2-inch stack, sometimes without anything CAP in there.

It makes sense in the light of the CAP practice of giving special appointment promotions to prior military personnel (much as I dislike that practice).  Because we have chosen to recognize military experience in this way, it also makes sense to wear military ribbons that have been rightfully earned -- after all we are an auxiliary of a military service.  By the way the same arguement can be used to say that those in one service shouldn't wear ribbons earned in another. 

[Hawk200]

Actually, nothing CAP members wear is a military uniform.  Service dress, flight suits, BDU's, are all military styled uniforms.

Once again, incorrect. Per CAPM 39-1: "Uniform items that do not meet Air Force specifications are not authorized for wear. Each uniform item must have this label sewn or stamped on permanently: "USAF CERTIFICATE NO _______. A sample of this item has been inspected and meets or exceeds the quality prescribed by AF Specification _____."

You can call both a rose and horse crap by other names, and it doesn't change what they are. Same thing with our flightsuits, BDU's, etc. They are military standard items worn with CAP insignia. If you aren't wearing something that has been approved by the Air Force, you're wrong.

And, calling it all "styled" leads to some bad thought processes: "It doesn't matter if I wear it right, it's only an Air Force style uniform!" or "The Air Force can't tell us what to do with it, it's not theirs, it's only styled like theirs!" (this reasoning seems to be common, even if it's not put into words.) The Air Force allows us to wear it with our own distinctive insignia. It's a variant of what they wear, they're not "similar" clothes, not "kinda like" Air Force garments, they are AF uniforms with our insignia. It's not CAP's uniform, it's the Air Force's uniform.

So, once again: Anyone got something for the 2009 NB agenda?

[AlphaSigOU]

See this thread fror a linky to the agenda: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=7118.0

[lordmonar]

How do we know that this wasn't done decades ago? 

USAF's opinions change over time.  At first we asked and USAF said no to the BDU Gortex...but later they changed their mind.

Once apon a time a CAP NAT/CC promoted himself to Maj Gen....the USAF had a problem about that...but two (three?) commander's later they did not have a problem with it.

USAF AFI's don't allow you to wear ribbons on civilain clothing.  That was the standard answer back in the day with the aviatior shirt.  The AFI still exists but maybe now the USAF may not have a problem with it.

[cap235629]

but AR 670-1 does allow it for veterans with wartime service

[RogueLeader]

but AR 670-1 does allow it for veterans with wartime service

Thats why we need to ask each service.  it's up to them to say: Yes, No, or With these conditions.

[RiverAux]

How do we know that this wasn't done decades ago? 

USAF's opinions change over time.  At first we asked and USAF said no to the BDU Gortex...but later they changed their mind.

Once apon a time a CAP NAT/CC promoted himself to Maj Gen....the USAF had a problem about that...but two (three?) commander's later they did not have a problem with it.

USAF AFI's don't allow you to wear ribbons on civilain clothing.  That was the standard answer back in the day with the aviatior shirt.  The AFI still exists but maybe now the USAF may not have a problem with it.

I was responding to the part of the thread worried about other military services that might not give CAP the authority to wear their ribbons on our AF-style uniforms.  Since we've been doing it for decades, I'd say that if they had a problem with it or had never approved it, we would know about it by now.  As regards CAP corporate uniforms, I suspect that CAP-USAF would probably check into this and include what they find in their recommendation.  It isn't CAP's place to ask the other services directly. 

[Eclipse]

Actually, nothing CAP members wear is a military uniform.  Service dress, flight suits, BDU's, are all military styled uniforms.

Once again, incorrect. Per CAPM 39-1: "Uniform items that do not meet Air Force specifications are not authorized for wear. Each uniform item must have this label sewn or stamped on permanently: "USAF CERTIFICATE NO _______. A sample of this item has been inspected and meets or exceeds the quality prescribed by AF Specification _____."

You can call both a rose and horse crap by other names, and it doesn't change what they are. Same thing with our flightsuits, BDU's, etc. They are military standard items worn with CAP insignia. If you aren't wearing something that has been approved by the Air Force, you're wrong.

Then by your definition, the CSU is a military uniform.

Pants - USAF
Belt - USAF
Flight Cap - USAF
Wheel CAP - USAF
Grade Insignia - USAF
Waist jacket - USA/USN
Tie - USAF
Shoes - usually high-parade gloss, same as USAF.

Only thing not mil-spec is the shirt and service coats, but not everyone has a service coat.

Military-spec parts with CAP insingia = military uniform in your definition.

[Gunner C]

but AR 670-1 does allow it for veterans with wartime service

Thats why we need to ask each service.  it's up to them to say: Yes, No, or With these conditions.

How about we ask the commander of the Congressional Squadron, Col (Senator)Tom Harken if he could introduce a bill that would allow CAP to wear their military ribbons.  That would take care of everything, except those who don't like military awards (I think that it was the CAP/JA who stated that he doesn't think that CAP members should wear anything having to do with combat - I guess he'd take away the air medals from the WW2 subchasers.

[SarDragon]

The issue with hair and beards is the subjective nature of what people would think is "too long".  Give then a 1-inch beard and those with two-inchs of hair will complain, and call the guys with a ruler checking uniform stasi.

True. But there is precedent for such uniforms, the Public Health Service. They allow beards, and even have a similar double breasted coat design. I'd say follow theirs instead of just an arbitrary rule. 

According to their directives: "Facial Hair. If a beard and/or mustache is worn, it shall be neatly trimmed and groomed at all times, so as to avoid a ragged appearance. A beard may be either full or partial; however, patches or spots of facial hair are not considered a beard and are not authorized. The bulk of a beard (the distance that the mass of the facial hair protrudes from the skin) shall not exceed one-half inch, and the length of individual facial hair shall not exceed one inch.

This may be getting off topic, but it was because of the inability of younger Navy members (18-25 or so) to comply with a similar USN regulation that was a significant reason for beards to be banned in the Navy. The bolded part was the biggest problem. I foresee this as a problem if beard rules are relaxed in CAP.

FWIW, I maintain my beard today in the same manner I did WIWOAD, and think I maintain a more military overall appearance than many of our heavy members. I still meet military weight standards at 59.929.

[James Shaw]

My take on the NB uniform proposals.

I am working on a design for the Eaker medal...

I do not feel that we whould wear any RM ribbons or badges on the CSU uniform period!

I am neutral on the Command Badge and its wear after term of Command is gone.

[davidsinn]

The issue with hair and beards is the subjective nature of what people would think is "too long".  Give then a 1-inch beard and those with two-inchs of hair will complain, and call the guys with a ruler checking uniform stasi.

True. But there is precedent for such uniforms, the Public Health Service. They allow beards, and even have a similar double breasted coat design. I'd say follow theirs instead of just an arbitrary rule. 

According to their directives: "Facial Hair. If a beard and/or mustache is worn, it shall be neatly trimmed and groomed at all times, so as to avoid a ragged appearance. A beard may be either full or partial; however, patches or spots of facial hair are not considered a beard and are not authorized. The bulk of a beard (the distance that the mass of the facial hair protrudes from the skin) shall not exceed one-half inch, and the length of individual facial hair shall not exceed one inch.

This may be getting off topic, but it was because of the inability of younger Navy members (18-25 or so) to comply with a similar USN regulation that was a significant reason for beards to be banned in the Navy. The bolded part was the biggest problem. I foresee this as a problem if beard rules are relaxed in CAP.

FWIW, I maintain my beard today in the same manner I did WIWOAD, and think I maintain a more military overall appearance than many of our heavy members. I still meet military weight standards at 59.929.

Hypothetically speaking if we were to adopt that rule would goatees fly or not? My lovely wife won't let be wear blues at the moment because she likes my goatee.

[AlphaSigOU]

Goatees (if well trimmed) are not scraggly patches of facial hair. It would qualify as a beard, though partial under the PHS beard rule.

[SarDragon]

Goatees were permitted in the Navy, and, IIRC, fit into the PHS rules. They had to meet the bulk and length requirements.

[sandman]

Goatees were permitted in the Navy, and, IIRC, fit into the PHS rules. They had to meet the bulk and length requirements.

Sorry folks, PHS no longer allows beards since January 2008. They're trying to align themselves with the armed forces.

[Ricochet13]

Oh but those who wear the AF style say "But I earned them" here's a news flash........SO DID I!!!! what makes your service any more relative and worthy of recognition than mine?

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