Plastic encased grade insignia

[Rotorhead]

I'm looking for the latest info on these, specifically if they are or are not authorized for use on flight suits.

39-1 says they are; but Hock Shop told one of our guys that that's an old reg and plastic-encased grade insignia are no longer authorized; he said cloth was now authorized.

Can someone direct me to the latest directive, if 39-1 is indeed out of date?

[IceNine]

There are 2 different flight suits.

The sage green one which still uses plastic encased insignia

And the Navy Blue one whice uses embroidered insignia.

Search "flight suit" in 39-1 for guidance on the green one.

And look at the change letter 1/25/08 for the blue one.

[Rotorhead]

There are 2 different flight suits.

The sage green one which still uses plastic encased insignia

And the Navy Blue one whice uses embroidered insignia.

Search "flight suit" in 39-1 for guidance on the green one.

And look at the change letter 1/25/08 for the blue one.

So Hock's answer was "sort of true," depending. Got it.

[IceNine]

They must have just missed the little part that says "embroidered insignia authorized on CAP distinctive flightsuits"

[Eclipse]

There are 2 different flight suits.

Until 28 February there are three:

Green - only thing authorized is plastic encased.

Dark blue - will be bright insignia on dark blue embroidered

Ultramarine  blue - can be either plastic encased or bright on ultramarine blue embroidered.

What I love is that some outdated KB answers say that the ultramarine blue flight suit is already unauthorized for wear.
http://www.cap.gov/documents/NB_Winter_06_Uniforms_Policy_Letterpdf.pdf

Also, the dark blue non-Nomex utility jumpsuit is bright insignia on dark blue embroidered.

[O-Rex]

Has anyone seen the new plastic-encased rank from Vanguard?

I guess the old stock form way back when was finally depleated, and they needed to find another manufacturer in a pinch.

It's pretty hard to screw up Lt and Capt's rank, so I imagine they should be okay, but the Major and Lt. Col's look real chintsy; looks like something out of a toy 'soldiers playset' that you would find in a dollar-store.

[KyCAP]

I thought the same thing...

[MikeD]

Any word on if/when cloth will be authorized on the green flightsuits?

[SarDragon]

Any word on if/when cloth will be authorized on the green flightsuits?

Well, Hell (MI) is already frozen over, so there must be another benchmark to look for.

[Pylon]

Any word on if/when cloth will be authorized on the green flightsuits?

Why would it need to be changed?  Plastic insignia is available from a supplier.  It has been working just fine for CAP members for years upon years.   Why make every CAP member change their insignia (and squadrons and Vanguard and Hock lose out on all the plastic insignia they have in stock) just to make a change for the sake of change? 

If there's a quality issue with one of the grade insignia, you address the manufacturer's quality issue... not make everyone in the organization change to a new insignia. 

[Hawk200]

.... but the Major and Lt. Col's look real chintsy; looks like something out of a toy 'soldiers playset' that you would find in a dollar-store.

Does it not look like the picture on the Vanguard website? Those look OK, or is that an "enhanced" picture or something?

Why would it need to be changed?  Plastic insignia is available from a supplier.  It has been working just fine for CAP members for years upon years.   Why make every CAP member change their insignia (and squadrons and Vanguard and Hock lose out on all the plastic insignia they have in stock) just to make a change for the sake of change? 

It's been hard to get for what, over a year? It doesn't work if people just can't get the stuff. Doesn't work all that well when it costs us more than it should. We could get cloth for probably a dollar per pair. At my current rank, it would cost me $7.70 for one pair of rank insignia. Even if it cost $1.50/pair for cloth, I could get four, and still have a little change for my next soda.

It would be rather simple. Tell the Air Force, "Hey, we'd like cloth sew-on rank for our flightsuits, cause it's cheaper, easier to maintain, and would look better. We've got a couple of ideas. Our insignia manufatcurer has materials that would adapt easily. Would that be OK?"

Granted, there would be a few people that would immediately go sewing on the new cloth, because it's the latest and greatest. To minimize cost, do a phase out through attrition, or make it optional. Replacement is permitted, but not required. No mandatory expense. You promote, replace your old plastic with cloth. No muss, no fuss, no filthy bathtub soap scum. It would be a lot easier to sew on, too.

[MikeD]

It's been hard to get for what, over a year? It doesn't work if people just can't get the stuff. Doesn't work all that well when it costs us more than it should.
<snip>

To minimize cost, do a phase out through attrition, or make it optional. Replacement is permitted, but not required. No mandatory expense. You promote, replace your old plastic with cloth. No muss, no fuss, no filthy bathtub soap scum. It would be a lot easier to sew on, too.

Pretty much exactly what I was thinking.

[Pylon]

It's been hard to get for what, over a year? It doesn't work if people just can't get the stuff.

People really love playing that up. It's not hard to get now. The situation has been fixed for months on end.  Plastic insignia is available now. If you order it now, it ships right away. The argument no longer works.   Next.

Doesn't work all that well when it costs us more than it should. We could get cloth for probably a dollar per pair. At my current rank, it would cost me $7.70 for one pair of rank insignia. Even if it cost $1.50/pair for cloth, I could get four, and still have a little change for my next soda.

Well, if the sole reason to start changing existing uniform items is cost, then we should replace all existing NB, NEC and Specialty Badges with cloth embroidered ones we can just tack on to our shirts.  Let's all switch to the new 2-line corporate nameplates because the 3-line nameplates cost more.  We shouldn't wear mini-medals on mess dress (they're $7 each!), we should just wear regular ribbons because they're cheaper and more practical.  We also should replace costly cadet grade insignia with stickers.   Spaatz cadets get three gold stickers.  Yay!  Everything's cheap!

It would be rather simple. Tell the Air Force, "Hey, we'd like cloth sew-on rank for our flightsuits, cause it's cheaper, easier to maintain, and would look better. We've got a couple of ideas. Our insignia manufatcurer has materials that would adapt easily. Would that be OK?"

It's not that simple.  National CAP has been bombarding the Air Force with proposals... ABUs... Outerwear... Hawk and NBB bling on the BDUs... new badges, new ribbons, new medals...  the NB has already received over a dozen proposed agenda items on uniforms for the upcoming NB meeting.  It's not just a "Hey, we were thinking of changing this one thing..."  CAP can't STOP tweaking uniforms for the sake of tweaking our uniforms.  We need to STOP making random, minor changes to our uniforms unless there is a COMPELLING reason.

To minimize cost, do a phase out through attrition, or make it optional. Replacement is permitted, but not required. No mandatory expense. You promote, replace your old plastic with cloth. No muss, no fuss, no filthy bathtub soap scum.

Except we don't do things that way.  We set a phase-out date by which everyone has to comply. Otherwise you end up with even LESS uniformity than we have now.  Complete lack of uniformity among any given group of CAP members is already a problem, having two different types of insignia in use for an open-ended amount of time isn't going to help.   The problem with your model is that there are people who never promote... there are literally people with more time in their current grade of 1st Lt or Capt than I've had time on this planet.  And then you have the hoards of career CAP members who are capped at Lt Col and Col and might serve another 5, 10, 15 or 20 years without a promotion.

So by making a uniform change (this type has be mandatory) we require thousands of members to toss out thousands of the $7 plastic insignia, go out and buy new $1.50 insignia (and pay shipping) and sew it on because, somewhere down the line, someone will eventually save money.

It would be a lot easier to sew on, too.

It's actually not easier at all.  Not in the least bit.  

Plastic insignia: use a needle to poke a hole in the four corners, place one stitch through each of the four corners.  Double-stitch it if you want to be safe.  Done.   This has worked on all my flight suits and jackets and held up for years.

Cloth Insignia:  Fold under the edges until you get the prescribed 1/8" border (though undoubtedly many members will jack this up and have all sorts of varying border sizes like they do on BDUs), crease the edges, machine-stitch the entire thing all the way around (and remember that you're sewing through two to three layers of the cloth insignia when folded, plus the flight suit).  Remember to replace your insignia when the white embroidery starts to get dirty from the elements or starts to fray from wear, washing, seat harness rubbing, etc.

[Hawk200]

People really love playing that up. It's not hard to get now. The situation has been fixed for months on end.  Plastic insignia is available now. If you order it now, it ships right away. The argument no longer works.   Next.

It was hard to get six months ago. Might be six months from now. Guarantee me that I will never have a problem getting them again, and I'll buy your "The argument no longer works."

Well, if the sole reason to start changing existing uniform items is cost, then we should replace all existing NB, NEC and Specialty Badges with cloth embroidered ones we can just tack on to our shirts.  Let's all switch to the new 2-line corporate nameplates because the 3-line nameplates cost more.  We shouldn't wear mini-medals on mess dress (they're $7 each!), we should just wear regular ribbons because they're cheaper and more practical.  We also should replace costly cadet grade insignia with stickers.   Spaatz cadets get three gold stickers.  Yay!  Everything's cheap!

Yeah, sure, let's go from practical reasons to utterly ridiculous concepts. Do you really think that's the best way to get your point across?

It's not that simple.  National CAP has been bombarding the Air Force with proposals... ABUs... Outerwear... Hawk and NBB bling on the BDUs... new badges, new ribbons, new medals...  the NB has already received over a dozen proposed agenda items on uniforms for the upcoming NB meeting.  It's not just a "Hey, we were thinking of changing this one thing..."  

Fine, let's do the same thing the Air Force does. Have a Uniform Board that weighs the benefits against the costs. Lose the Gold Sticker for everybody, catering to the lowest common denominator, and go with stuff that has meaning. We have all this crap because many want to feel special without working for anything. Actually, an issue with society, but not one we should be adopting.

CAP can't STOP tweaking uniforms for the sake of tweaking our uniforms.  

Agreed.

We need to STOP making random, minor changes to our uniforms unless there is a COMPELLING reason.

Don't know what you consider compelling reason if saving some money isn't. This time it costs me $7.70 for my rank insignia. Next time it costs me $8. Time after that, $8. $23.70, total. Might take a few years, but it is still an expense. Cloth, at even $2/ set equals $6. I don't care if it takes five years, it's still a savings. Is the simple math too simple? Or is it a matter of the amount? How many zeroes behind the number does it take to become compelling? If it has to be high amounts to considered such, I think I'd like to trade wallets with you.

Except we don't do things that way.  We set a phase-out date by which everyone has to comply. Otherwise you end up with even LESS uniformity than we have now.  Complete lack of uniformity among any given group of CAP members is already a problem, having two different types of insignia in use for an open-ended amount of time isn't going to help.   The problem with your model is that there are people who never promote... there are literally people with more time in their current grade of 1st Lt or Capt than I've had time on this planet.  And then you have the hoards of career CAP members who are capped at Lt Col and Col and might serve another 5, 10, 15 or 20 years without a promotion.

So by making a uniform change (this type has be mandatory) we require thousands of members to toss out thousands of the $7 plastic insignia, go out and buy new $1.50 insignia (and pay shipping) and sew it on because, somewhere down the line, someone will eventually save money.

Phase the stuff out, and nobody will be buying it in the first place. You would have people spending more on replacements. Go ahead, lie to me, tell me that plastic will never need replacing.

It's actually not easier at all.  Not in the least bit.  

Plastic insignia: use a needle to poke a hole in the four corners, place one stitch through each of the four corners.  Double-stitch it if you want to be safe.  Done.   This has worked on all my flight suits and jackets and held up for years.

Cloth Insignia:  Fold under the edges until you get the prescribed 1/8" border (though undoubtedly many members will jack this up and have all sorts of varying border sizes like they do on BDUs), crease the edges, machine-stitch the entire thing all the way around (and remember that you're sewing through two to three layers of the cloth insignia when folded, plus the flight suit).  Remember to replace your insignia when the white embroidery starts to get dirty from the elements or starts to fray from wear, washing, seat harness rubbing, etc.

I've hand sewn several dozen insignia on various uniforms. The plastic was the hardest. It is ridiculous to even think that sewing through an eighth inch of plastic is easier than three layers of cloth. Did you even think about that, or were you so determined to argue the point that the simple facts went out the window? Just because you sewed it in a manner you consider "good enough", doesn't make it easier.

Also worth mentioning is the fact that the thread looks wrong through plastic. It looks better with cloth insignia.

But, let's look at the "replace your insignia" concept. Plastic turns yellow with age. Period. It's an indisputable fact. It will scratch, too. If it does either, you replace it. Otherwise, you show no respect to the uniform. You'd have people spending more for each new set of insignia, either by replacement or promotion. But to read your justifications, that is acceptable for the purpose of avoiding change. If we keep that up, then nothing ever goes out, things just keep getting added on.

Ever wonder why the Air Force changed from plastic to cloth? Had to be a good reason. Don't tell me that the Air Force's reasons don't apply, it is the same plastic insignia, nothing different.  Must have been a good reason for an organization that has probably had more aircrew wearing those insignia that CAP has had members at any given time.

[O-Rex]

.... but the Major and Lt. Col's look real chintsy; looks like something out of a toy 'soldiers playset' that you would find in a dollar-store.

Does it not look like the picture on the Vanguard website? Those look OK, or is that an "enhanced" picture or something?

Why would it need to be changed?  Plastic insignia is available from a supplier.  It has been working just fine for CAP members for years upon years.   Why make every CAP member change their insignia (and squadrons and Vanguard and Hock lose out on all the plastic insignia they have in stock) just to make a change for the sake of change? 

It's been hard to get for what, over a year? It doesn't work if people just can't get the stuff. Doesn't work all that well when it costs us more than it should. We could get cloth for probably a dollar per pair. At my current rank, it would cost me $7.70 for one pair of rank insignia. Even if it cost $1.50/pair for cloth, I could get four, and still have a little change for my next soda.

It would be rather simple. Tell the Air Force, "Hey, we'd like cloth sew-on rank for our flightsuits, cause it's cheaper, easier to maintain, and would look better. We've got a couple of ideas. Our insignia manufatcurer has materials that would adapt easily. Would that be OK?"

Granted, there would be a few people that would immediately go sewing on the new cloth, because it's the latest and greatest. To minimize cost, do a phase out through attrition, or make it optional. Replacement is permitted, but not required. No mandatory expense. You promote, replace your old plastic with cloth. No muss, no fuss, no filthy bathtub soap scum. It would be a lot easier to sew on, too.

No, Vanguard uses an older stock photo of the plastic-encased rank: reminds me of the old REMCO toys (anyone remember those??) whatever you got looked great on picture on the box it came in, but the quality of what was inside was horrible.

Tell you what; the price of plastic encased rank has nearly doubled since I joined CAP 10 years ago.  If you have a couple of flightsuits and a jacket, its like $25 (along with rank for the other costumes.) 

"Yo, Rex, aren't you due for promotion?"

"Yeah, I'm saving up for it." 

I too would like to see cloth in white/yellow on green, not to look more USAFish, but for practicality: cloth looks and works great on the blue flightsuits/utilities, easy to sew, low-maint, none of that icky condensation on warm days, yadda-yadda.  Besides, USAF has gone to subdued on gray sew-on anyway.

FL Wing Conf is next week: I don't even know if Vanguard is coming FYI, is costs your wing an arm and a leg to invite them, and even then what's most of what's offered are "closeout specials,"  you know, like the logo water bottle, carabiner with compass, coasters, CAP throw-blankets and other highly sought-after mission essential tidbits. 

[heliodoc]

CAP should have changed the "plastic encased" CRAP and followed suit with AF and other RM sew ons

Sure it costs somethin...so do the chintzy banana republic ribbons we wear.. guess one has to pick what's more important rank or ribbons and as I recall ribbons are optional

Most of the folks I know in the sewing biz thinks the plastic is a joke, too

Sew ons latest and greatest??  Only in CAP maybe  RM?? been around for years... Doesn't CAP look up to the RM for guidance and reason??

Just like the suede issue boots and flight boots.... The old tradition of polishing boots is "nearly" gone with those things and CAP with sew ons ought to see that a little practical change helps..

[RiverAux]

Never liked this item.  Hard to sew on and hard to sew on so it looks good.  Have trouble with them catching on things every now and again.  Can't believe anyone ever thought they were a good idea either for the AF or for CAP. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

I have had Air Force officers question my uniform and ask why I'm wearing "Outdated insignia."  I usually make a sarcastic comment that CAP is allowed to wear outdated insignia because our planes still have propellers.

But really... I'm a little tired of it.  We should be in synch with the rest of the US military world and go to sew-on embroidered insignia.  Losing the leather name badge wouldn't hurt, either.

[JayT]

I have had Air Force officers question my uniform and ask why I'm wearing "Outdated insignia."  I usually make a sarcastic comment that CAP is allowed to wear outdated insignia because our planes still have propellers.

But really... I'm a little tired of it.  We should be in synch with the rest of the US military world and go to sew-on embroidered insignia.  Losing the leather name badge wouldn't hurt, either.

How can it be 'outdated' if it's out authorized insignia?

If you showed up with embroided, it would be 'unathorized.'

[dbarbee]

There are 2 different flight suits.

Until 28 February there are three:

Green - only thing authorized is plastic encased.

Dark blue - will be bright insignia on dark blue embroidered

Ultramarine  blue - can be either plastic encased or bright on ultramarine blue embroidered.

What I love is that some outdated KB answers say that the ultramarine blue flight suit is already unauthorized for wear.
http://www.cap.gov/documents/NB_Winter_06_Uniforms_Policy_Letterpdf.pdf

Also, the dark blue non-Nomex utility jumpsuit is bright insignia on dark blue embroidered.

What is the reference authorizing bright insignia for the Dark Blue Flight Suit & Blue Utility Uniform? All I can find authorized is  plastic-encased & embroidered (39-1 Change Letter 25Jan08)

By bright insignia, do you mean metallic, non-plastic encased?

[Eclipse]

The link I provided above is dated March 2006.

By "bright" I mean "not subdued".

e. Embroidered grade insignia on flight suits. Embroidered grade insignia, as
well as the currently authorized plastic encased insignia, is now authorized on the CAP
distinctive flight suits. Ultramarine blue grade insignia will be worn on the ultramarine blue
NOMEX flight suit. Dark blue embroidered grade insignia will be worn on the dark blue
utility uniform and new NOMEX flight suit. The dark blue grade insignia will be available
shortly from Vanguard.

[Eclipse]

Sure it costs somethin...so do the chintzy banana republic ribbons we wear.. guess one has to pick what's more important rank or ribbons and as I recall ribbons are optional

Banana what?  Our ribbons are identical in composition, and nearly identical in some case in color to the other uniformed services.

They are optional on service shirts, but not service coats.  Seniors can short-stack, but they must wear something.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I have had Air Force officers question my uniform and ask why I'm wearing "Outdated insignia."  I usually make a sarcastic comment that CAP is allowed to wear outdated insignia because our planes still have propellers.

But really... I'm a little tired of it.  We should be in synch with the rest of the US military world and go to sew-on embroidered insignia.  Losing the leather name badge wouldn't hurt, either.

How can it be 'outdated' if it's out authorized insignia?

If you showed up with embroided, it would be 'unathorized.'

Air Force officers do not customarily read 39-1.  They are laboring under the misconception that when they change regulations, their Auxiliary follows suit.  The Air Force has not worn plastic encased rank since the 80's.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Sure it costs somethin...so do the chintzy banana republic ribbons we wear.. guess one has to pick what's more important rank or ribbons and as I recall ribbons are optional

Banana what?  Our ribbons are identical in composition, and nearly identical in some case in color to the other uniformed services.

They are optional on service shirts, but not service coats.  Seniors can short-stack, but they must wear something.

Actually, I kind of LIKE looking like a banana republic version of Hermann Goring in my TPU.  I can fake an accent, and by promising waitresses jobs as my Foreign Minister I can skip the tip!

[Pylon]

Air Force officers do not customarily read 39-1.  They are laboring under the misconception that when they change regulations, their Auxiliary follows suit.  The Air Force has not worn plastic encased rank since the 80's.

I hope they don't look at our still-ultramarine-blue BDU nametapes (AF holdovers from the 70's), leather flight badges, lack of nameplate on the sweater, cadets wearing old-style service coats and all the other myriad of uniform changes CAP doesn't necessarily follow up on when the AF makes the change.   Then they might really think we're outdated.  

[JohnKachenmeister]

The leather name badge came up in the same "Outdated" conversation.  And the cadet old 4-button jacket might be coming back soon, so they really can't say too much at this time.

[dbarbee]

The link I provided above is dated March 2006.

By "bright" I mean "not subdued".

e. Embroidered grade insignia on flight suits. Embroidered grade insignia, as
well as the currently authorized plastic encased insignia, is now authorized on the CAP
distinctive flight suits. Ultramarine blue grade insignia will be worn on the ultramarine blue
NOMEX flight suit. Dark blue embroidered grade insignia will be worn on the dark blue
utility uniform and new NOMEX flight suit. The dark blue grade insignia will be available
shortly from Vanguard.

OK, I read a little closer and see you were referring to the embroidered insignia on the blue cloth background. I mis-read it to mean you could wear "bright" insignia on the blue uniform. It made me think "bright" insignia might be a third insignia option.

Got it straight now, thanks! 

[O-Rex]

I was at an MCSS this past weekend and they had the new ABU subdued-on-gray sew-on rank next to the subdued-on-green (this being a transition period and all.) 

There was a world of difference in appearance.

Now you are going to tell me that embroidered full-color on green cloth won't fly with the Air Force?

Does anyone know if this is or was an item presented at an NB or BOG??

One of our CAPTALK bubba's was on a uniform committee: any word??

Are officer aircrews using this new rank on their bags?

Also, anyone ever notice that USAF uniform regs do NOT address the flightsuit??

Ever notice how much you ramble when you hit Starbucks for lunch?? 

[Hawk200]

Also, anyone ever notice that USAF uniform regs do NOT address the flightsuit??

If you searched for "flightsuit" in the the newest AFI 36-2903 (latest one out is 2 Aug 2006, includes Change 1 dated 7 Aug 2007), you won't find it.

However, search for "Flight Dress Uniform", and you'll get the whole thing.

As far as the grey cloth background insignia, that doesn't seem to be addressed. Since the olive green is phasing out, the Air Force may decide to go with something that actually matches the flightsuit. I've seen old officer insignia in full color on sage before, used to have a few of them. Subdued on sage is pretty easy to do. Vanguard already has that for Navy types. A few of the rank insignia would need alteration for wear on an Air Force uniform.

[O-Rex]

Also, anyone ever notice that USAF uniform regs do NOT address the flightsuit??

If you searched for "flightsuit" in the the newest AFI 36-2903 (latest one out is 2 Aug 2006, includes Change 1 dated 7 Aug 2007), you won't find it.

However, search for "Flight Dress Uniform", and you'll get the whole thing.

As far as the grey cloth background insignia, that doesn't seem to be addressed. Since the olive green is phasing out, the Air Force may decide to go with something that actually matches the flightsuit. I've seen old officer insignia in full color on sage before, used to have a few of them. Subdued on sage is pretty easy to do. Vanguard already has that for Navy types. A few of the rank insignia would need alteration for wear on an Air Force uniform.

Somehow "Flight Dress Uniform" conjures up images of the bag with mini medals and mess-dress shoulder-boards. . . .   

They'll probably go with the gray rank: should blend with everything.

Anyone know if black boots and black t-shirts are going away in favor of green boots and tan t-shirts (for USAF, that is.)  In know they wear it with tan FS's 'in theater.'

[wacapgh]

Now you are going to tell me that embroidered full-color on green cloth won't fly with the Air Force?

Does anyone know if this is or was an item presented at an NB or BOG??

I think it was submitted to USAF back in 2004 with no reply. Not "Yes", not "No". Nothing.

[O-Rex]

Now you are going to tell me that embroidered full-color on green cloth won't fly with the Air Force?

Does anyone know if this is or was an item presented at an NB or BOG??

I think it was submitted to USAF back in 2004 with no reply. Not "Yes", not "No". Nothing.

You think we could ask again, FIVE years later?? 

This isn't about looking more 'USAF-ish' it's about COST & availability: I (and I'm sure I'm not alone) would rather spend a dollar for sew-on (whatever the color) than eight dollars for plastic-encased rank.

[Strick]

I honestly do not have a problem with the look or functionality of the plastic rank.  My problem is the cost.  Also I have a older bag with bright grade on od cloth.  Shame on me, it was not authorized but at the time it was the only thing aviliable because the plastic was back ordered. 

[DC]

There are 2 different flight suits.

Until 28 February there are three:

Green - only thing authorized is plastic encased.

Dark blue - will be bright insignia on dark blue embroidered

Ultramarine  blue - can be either plastic encased or bright on ultramarine blue embroidered.

What I love is that some outdated KB answers say that the ultramarine blue flight suit is already unauthorized for wear.
http://www.cap.gov/documents/NB_Winter_06_Uniforms_Policy_Letterpdf.pdf

Also, the dark blue non-Nomex utility jumpsuit is bright insignia on dark blue embroidered.

What is the reference authorizing bright insignia for the Dark Blue Flight Suit & Blue Utility Uniform? All I can find authorized is  plastic-encased & embroidered (39-1 Change Letter 25Jan08)

By bright insignia, do you mean metallic, non-plastic encased?

He means the insignia is true color, i.e. Captain's bars are silver, a Major's oak leaves are gold, etc. as opposed to the 'subdued' colors used by the military, where silver becomes a dark blue, and gold a dark bronzish color.

EDIT: Never mind, I didn't notice there was a second page, and the question had been answered..

[RiverAux]

The proposal before the NB next month is for cloth insignia with a purple background apparently. 

[SilverEagle2]

^^ I threw up a little in my mouth when I read that in the agenda. I don't think the NB will vote it in as it appears that Vanguard has a supplier for the Plastic.

I'd rather wear the dark blue with bright over a silly purple on the green suit.

[Eclipse]

^^ I threw up a little in my mouth when I read that in the agenda. I don't think the NB will vote it in as it appears that Vanguard has a supplier for the Plastic.

I'd rather wear the dark blue with bright over a silly purple on the green suit.

I like it!  But only on the green flight suit!  

[SilverEagle2]

Nope, one more thing for vanguard to get wrong.

Throws back to the berry grade sleeves. Yuck.

Heck I'll even take bright on grey. 

[Smokey]

PURPLE  !!!    PURPLE!!!

What did we do this time to get...purple.  Shades of Barry Boards.

I think I just went blind from seeing that.

I know a proposal was for full color on OD green...kinda like the Navy.
I could even swallow on dark blue...but PURPLE.   Is Jimi Hendrix behind this?
For cadets.....Google Jimi Hendrix & purple since it is before your time.

[MIKE]

Hock Shops insignia is already purple. Ducks *

[DC]

I don't think that dark blue sew on rank would look that bad on the flight suit, certainly not any worse than it will look on BDUs..

Who the [heck] came up with purple though, I mean, seriously, purple?!

[Hawk200]

The proposal before the NB next month is for cloth insignia with a purple background apparently. 

Please tell me that's a joke. Or a typo. Or anything that could remotely make it sound like the huge mistake it is.

If not, I think I'm only gonna ever wear blues.

[stratoflyer]

^ Suddenly plastic encased doesn't seem THAT bad. 

[stratoflyer]

I know who Jimi Hendrix was ok? And I don't use Google for everything ya know...I opened an encyclopedia a year ago. So HA! Then again, I'm wearing grey epaulets. LOL

Did someone say they went blind from seeing those purples? LOL

Seriously, though. The cost and quality of the plastic encased is no secret. And the PINA that comes with it sewing it own (I didn't know they have plastic thread for needles, its transparent, and that's thanks to my aunt who showed me.)

So essentially, I'm up for whatever is cloth on the "flight dress uniform."

My biggest complaint is Why do we have to look so different still. Army cadets, sea cadets, JROTC units all wear stuff with only minor differences in insignia. Why are we still being treated by a 40-ft pole when it comes to uniforms?

And let the firing begin....

[Eclipse]

My biggest complaint is Why do we have to look so different still. Army cadets, sea cadets, JROTC units all wear stuff with only minor differences in insignia. Why are we still being treated by a 40-ft pole when it comes to uniforms?

For one reason, none of those organizations have an operational role outside of their cadet programs, so there is little to no chance that a Sea Cadet will be mistaken for an active duty sailor in any environment where it would make a difference.

Unlike CAP, where it is not unheard of to be standing next to, or even be in authority over, military assets in operational situations.

[stratoflyer]

^Ok. That makes A LOT of sense. That was the best explanation I've heard to date. Now I'm satisfied.

Bring on the purple!

[JayT]

My biggest complaint is Why do we have to look so different still. Army cadets, sea cadets, JROTC units all wear stuff with only minor differences in insignia. Why are we still being treated by a 40-ft pole when it comes to uniforms?

And let the firing begin....

Well, I kinda have to disagree.

JROTC insignia is as least as different from the AF as our's is, plus depending on the Detachment SASI, there could e two or three different times of Cadet Officers insignia for just the service jacket.

Also, if you've ever seen AFJROTC in BDU's, they have a giant white patch in the middle of the shirt.

I don't really think we're treated with a 40 foot pole, althrough I don't understand the rational behind the plastic insignia any longer. To me, CAP's uniforms should be indentical in all respects to the AF in terms of placement of insignia's and tapes, except we should wear the traditional full color.

[Gunner C]

^Ok. That makes A LOT of sense. That was the best explanation I've heard to date. Now I'm satisfied.

Bring on the purple!

Oh Please NO.  I'll go without rank before I put purple on my flight suit.

[stratoflyer]

^

Hey, is that an option?

Hey, it's all part of the fun that comes with being in good ol' CAP.

[A.Member]

With all due respect, the proposal for a purple backed rank insignia is one of the stupidest I've heard in quite some time.   I'd really like to know what Col. Davidson's thought process was on this proposal.  It seems to speak to not only a lack of research on the issue but also a lack of judgement (purple?!...come on). 

Fortunately, this is a non-concur item by all others and should not be passed by the board.

[RiverAux]

The proposal before the NB next month is for cloth insignia with a purple background apparently. 

Please tell me that's a joke. Or a typo. Or anything that could remotely make it sound like the huge mistake it is.

If not, I think I'm only gonna ever wear blues.

Maybe the person who proposed it was joking, but it is in the agenda. 

[BuckeyeDEJ]

I guess it's possible that the proposer is colorblind, and thinks the navy blue (darker) nametapes, etc., are purple.

But purple? That's not a color that CAP has ever identified with. Unless maybe he thinks the traditional CAP volunteer red should be mixed with Air Force blue. Ick.

[flyguync]

Maybe he was having a Barney flashback from his grandkids movies??? I just wish we would go dark blue with finished edges for everything. Nothing is more of a pain than trying to make sure everything is 1/8". KISS - Keep It Simple Sirs

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Nothing is more of a pain than trying to make sure everything is 1/8".

I take it you've never had kidney stones....

[SarDragon]

Nothing is more of a pain than trying to make sure everything is 1/8".

I take it you've never had kidney stones....

OT. Amen, baby! BTDT! OUCH!

[Vermont Flyer]

Hey I'm new to CAP and trying to get my first Nomex Sage Green Flight Suit in order.
I have the plastic encased 2nd. Lt. bars from Vanguard.

Could someone post a quick picture of the proper location and sewing of this for me to use as a go-by so I get it right?  (The shot in 39-1 isn't close enought to see).

I could use a pic of the flag as well for proper positioning relative to the seam.

[AlphaSigOU]

Hey I'm new to CAP and trying to get my first Nomex Sage Green Flight Suit in order.
I have the plastic encased 2nd. Lt. bars from Vanguard.

Could someone post a quick picture of the proper location and sewing of this for me to use as a go-by so I get it right?  (The shot in 39-1 isn't close enought to see).

I could use a pic of the flag as well for proper positioning relative to the seam.

I created an 'unofficial' wear guide for the flight suit and utility uniform: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=5628.0. Hope this helps.

[Vermont Flyer]

That's very useful, thank you.
But I could still use an actual picture of the plastic encased, sewn on, with proper sewing technique and color of the thread.

Thanks.

[Hawk200]

Hey I'm new to CAP and trying to get my first Nomex Sage Green Flight Suit in order.
I have the plastic encased 2nd. Lt. bars from Vanguard.

Could someone post a quick picture of the proper location and sewing of this for me to use as a go-by so I get it right?  (The shot in 39-1 isn't close enought to see).

I could use a pic of the flag as well for proper positioning relative to the seam.

Both measurements are half an inch from the seam. For the rank, it's on the shoulder, the flag on the arm.

Keep in mind that the rank insignia goes one half inch. That plastic around the lieutenant bar isn't included in the measurement. From the shoulder seam to where the gold of the bar starts is where it's measured. Think of it this way: if you could pin a metal rank directly on top of the plastic (don't actually try it, it's just an example) and it was one half inch from the shoulder seam, then it's right.

Too many people think that the cloth or plastic around an insignia is actually part of it. It's not. Whether cloth or plastic, the measurement begins at the insignia itself.

[Eclipse]

39-1 has some pics, not the clearest, but gives you the idea...

[Hawk200]

39-1 has some pics, not the clearest, but gives you the idea...

Good point. I forgot the figures that show spacing. Figures 6-2 and 6-3 on page 100 of 39-1 illustrate spacing for rank insignia better.

[Vermont Flyer]

They're hard to see, don't show thread color, do they show spacing and sewing technique.

Again, a quick pic posted here of proper installation would be terribly useful.
Thx.

[SilverEagle2]

Use a thread color that matches the color of your flight suit. Otherwise you can use a synthetic clear thread.

No biggy. Just make sure you machine sew it on straight cause crooked lines look nasty on the plastic.

[Hawk200]

They're hard to see, don't show thread color, do they show spacing and sewing technique.

Again, a quick pic posted here of proper installation would be terribly useful.
Thx.

A picture is not really going to be any more useful. Look at the figures in 39-1. Everything you need to know is right there. Illustrations such as those are clearer than the pictures.

As for thread, I've seen a thread that looks like a very thin fishing line (but it's actually smaller than fishing line). I don't know where you would get it, but it looks pretty good.

[SarDragon]

If you're going to machine sew them, use a heavy duty needle, and run it through some wax before sewing (a candle works well).

[stratoflyer]

^Yeah. It is essentially fishing line but very thin.

I believe it's called invisible thread. My aunt had some in her sewing kit.

Not sure why it was ever invented but looks fantastic with the plastic encased rank. Barely visible.

[Grumpy]

If you're going to machine sew them, use a heavy duty needle, and run it through some wax before sewing (a candle works well).

You only used the candle because that's all they had for lighting when you were in the Navy.   

[IceNine]

^Yeah. It is essentially fishing line but very thin.

I believe it's called invisible thread. My aunt had some in her sewing kit.

Not sure why it was ever invented but looks fantastic with the plastic encased rank. Barely visible.

It's simply nylon thread, picked some up at walmart so I'm sure any decent sewing shop will have it.

[SarDragon]

Be careful. There's the monofilament stuff most of you are talking about (usually called invisible thread), and then there's real multistrand nylon thread, like they sew good nylon clothing together with. The monofil stuff is cheaper and easier to find, but just asking for nylon thread at a fabric store might get you the other stuff. BTDT.

[ascorbate]

This is a rather long thread and I only briefly scanned the responses and didn't see what I was hoping to find... with that said:

I called the Hock Shop this afternoon looking to order plastic encased insignia which they have not stocked for a while. They noted that the 2009 Winter National Board meeting (going on February 27-28) was going to take up this issue as CAP is the only organization that is currently generating a need for this item since the U.S. Air Force has adopted other grade insignia. Apparently, rumor has it that the supplier is no longer making plastic encased insignia.

Could anyone confirm/deny this?

How would word of a change be promulgated?

[jimmydeanno]

Could anyone confirm/deny this?

How would word of a change be promulgated?

There was a shortage/supplier issue.  Vanguard, being the official supplier of CAP uniform items, has plastic encased insignia in stock.  They have found a supplier for the materials and there is no shortage any longer.

Word of a change would be sent through an interim change letter and then incorporated into the 39-1 (<-HA HA).

[stratoflyer]

Just read the National Board results. Looks like Plastic Encased insignia is here to stay. 

[blackrain]

A little off topic but has anyone heard if a cloth nametape can be now be used on the blue flight suit? If not, can it be approved without going through the Air Force? The leather one I have from Vanguard doesn't even have the type aligned properly. As many of you I can get a quality cloth name patch locally for a lot less than the leather junk Vanguard sells.

[Eclipse]

A little off topic but has anyone heard if a cloth nametape can be now be used on the blue flight suit?

No.

If not, can it be approved without going through the Air Force?

No.

Vanguard is not the only source for leather name badges.  http://www.flightbadge.com/

[blackrain]

A little off topic but has anyone heard if a cloth nametape can be now be used on the blue flight suit?

No.

If not, can it be approved without going through the Air Force?

No.

Vanguard is not the only source for leather name badges.  http://www.flightbadge.com/

Thanks. It appears the quality will be better.

At least we can wear the sew-on rank on the blue flight suit. 

[oak2007]

Does anyone know at what temperature these things start to melt? you know, in case of fire

[Pylon]

Does anyone know at what temperature these things start to melt? you know, in case of fire

A temperature at which small 1" squares on your shoulders will be the very, very least of your concerns in a confined cockpit.

Of course if you're truly worried, you only have to submit a quick CAPF 2 to request appointment as a "SM" so you don't have to wear them.  Fear averted! 

[SarDragon]

Does anyone know at what temperature these things start to melt? you know, in case of fire

Boiling water will soften them, and a match will at least char them. Take it from there.

[O-Rex]

Does anyone know at what temperature these things start to melt? you know, in case of fire

By the time it became hot enough in the cockpit to melt the plastic, you probably wouldn't care at that point.

[Mustang]

Vanguard is not the only source for leather name badges.  [redacted]

They soon will be if you keep posting the names of other vendors in the clear like that. 

OPSEC FAIL.

[es_g0d]

I think it sad that we have to "hide" vendors that are truly CAP-friendly from "CAP corporate."

I think a true lawyer worth his/her salt could argue that all CAP emblems were created by the US Government, and therefore are public domain.  That would overturn some portions of later-created public law, but so be it.

The bottom line is that CAP Inc. jealously defending its emblems and so forth IS A WASTE OF TIME.  If we're concentrating on a mom-and-pop shop making a nametag with CAP wings on it, we're taking away attention from better pursuits.  If Vanguard wished to pursue it, or to drop supporting CAP, so be it.  The market will correct but ultimately serve the customer best.

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

[Smokey]

I just got my latest set becuae of my promotion......they look worse than the set for my last rank.  The quality is really cheesey.  They look like they are from a Cracker Jack box.   Yuck.

[smithwr2]

UPDATE -

Here's the comment from Jan 2009 regarding Vanguard having whipped the supply problem for these plastic encased rank:

"The situation has been fixed for months on end.  Plastic insignia is available now. If you order it now, it ships right away. The argument no longer works."

Here's my reality as of Feb 2011:

mid Jan 2011:  Ordered plastic enclosed rank.  Other Vanguard items arrive but Vanguard reports out of stock on the rank.

Feb 6:  Still no rank.  Requested order status.  Vanguard :  "...item is expected to be received into stock this week.  "

Feb 21:   Still no rank.  Requested order status.  Vanguard : "The item we received from the manufacturer was not up to our quality standards.  The shipment was refused and a replacement is expected to be received any day. "

Hmmm...so this was a problem in 2009, now again in 2011.  Maybe other years too...who's keeping track?  How many *years* does it take to whip an inventory management/stock out problem, on the same item no less?  I guess monopolist suppliers get lazy, stay lazy.

To the fella who says 'the situation has been fixed...the argument no longer works', I'm  thinking that statement might be less than fully informed.  VANGUARD FAILS THE MISSION in my humble opinion.

[lordmonar]

Supply and demand dude.

I don't blame vanguard....When the stock was low they put in a new order.......it was of low quality.......so they sent it back.

The problem is that we are the only customers for this partiuclar item.

The fix is to go with the the blue embroidered rank on the flight suits or to remove the rank all together.

I understand your fustration.....we too are waiting for new plastic enclosed rank here in my squadron.

But let's face it.....it is a specialty item and it takes time to produce.

Vanguard is being vilagant in makeing sure that the quality is high.

[Smokey]

And the quality still sucks though...the insignia being sold now is of inferior quality to that sold several years ago.  It looks cheap and is overpriced for the quality.

Since we seem to be the only customer for this junk...it's time to play nice nice with mother blue and if necessary beg for embroidered rank.  It can be full color like the Navy (on a green background for the green zoom bags) but it will cost 20% of what the plastic stuff costs, it's easy to sew on (yeah) won't look funky, and won't melt in the fire!

[a2capt]

If "the" fire has time to actually turn the plastic into a source of ignition, your problems are way worse .. and the non-nomex based embroidered rank insignia would have become 'insinge-nia' by then as well.
As for the things looking like Shrinky-Dinks rejects these days compared to what they used to be..


I do have a set of Capt' bar's from the 2009 remake that I never used because by the time I got them .. it was too late. They'd  been on order for quite a while before that. The promotion beat them.

[smithwr2]

 'insinge-nia'

Ha ha ha ha ha! ...Oh that was a good one.  Thanks.  (And I'm a pilot.)

I saw a good newspaper cartoon  the other day, to the effect of "Search and Rescue...helping lost hunters, hikers, snowmobilers, and downed pilots....that's right, interfering with Natural Selection..."

[Hawk200]

It can be full color like the Navy (on a green background for the green zoom bags) but it will cost 20% of what the plastic stuff costs, it's easy to sew on (yeah) won't look funky....

Agreed. Vivid on background cloth is the way to go. Won't get beat up in the wash as much either.

I do have a set of Capt' bar's from the 2009 remake that I never used because by the time I got them .. it was too late. They'd  been on order for quite a while before that. The promotion beat them.

Pretty sad commentary on their expediency. Never got the point as why we had to have the plastic once the Air Force transitioned (or at least after a few years after the Air Force transitioned.)

[vento]

It can be full color like the Navy (on a green background for the green zoom bags) but it will cost 20% of what the plastic stuff costs, it's easy to sew on (yeah) won't look funky....

Agreed. Vivid on background cloth is the way to go. Won't get beat up in the wash as much either.

Our current version for the BDUs is a pretty good option. It's readily available and we don't need to re-invent the wheel. Funny we allow the cloth version on the blue flightsuit (and they look good) but not on the pickle suit.

[PHall]

It can be full color like the Navy (on a green background for the green zoom bags) but it will cost 20% of what the plastic stuff costs, it's easy to sew on (yeah) won't look funky....

Agreed. Vivid on background cloth is the way to go. Won't get beat up in the wash as much either.

Our current version for the BDUs is a pretty good option. It's readily available and we don't need to re-invent the wheel. Funny we allow the cloth version on the blue flightsuit (and they look good) but not on the pickle suit.

That's because the Air Force hasn't approved it yet. Now, did we ever ask them? That's the question.

[lordmonar]

BTW.....Vanguard is not the sole sorce for these insignia.

A quick google search turned up 10 CT posts and this link. http://www.thebattlezone.biz/airforce/officerrankinsignia.html

$26.50 for a pair.

Have fun.

[Spaceman3750]

http://www.thebattlezone.biz/airforce/officerrankinsignia.html

http://www.militarylogisticsmfg.com/index140.html

EDIT: Beat me to it

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Curious that they still have AF CWO4 grade listed but when you click on it, Major's butterballs come up.

I don't think there's been a General Of The Air Force since LeMay, has there?

I fully support ditching the plastic-encased and ultramarine and going to the dark-blue that is allowed for the utility jumpsuit for ALL field wear - flight suits, BDU's (or whatever succeeds them), BBDU's, nametapes, everything.

To my knowledge, the AF has never used those.

[AlphaSigOU]

Curious that they still have AF CWO4 grade listed but when you click on it, Major's butterballs come up.

I don't think there's been a General Of The Air Force since LeMay, has there?

The only five star General of the Air Force was Hap Arnold. LeMay never reached that exalted rank, he was just a mere 4-star general.

[wacapgh]

It can be full color like the Navy (on a green background for the green zoom bags) but it will cost 20% of what the plastic stuff costs, it's easy to sew on (yeah) won't look funky....

Agreed. Vivid on background cloth is the way to go. Won't get beat up in the wash as much either.

Our current version for the BDUs is a pretty good option. It's readily available and we don't need to reinvent the wheel. Funny we allow the cloth version on the blue flightsuit (and they look good) but not on the pickle suit.

That's because the Air Force hasn't approved it yet. Now, did we ever ask them? That's the question.

I think there's a board minute from back around 2004 that we either had asked, or we going to ask for permission.

[PHall]

It can be full color like the Navy (on a green background for the green zoom bags) but it will cost 20% of what the plastic stuff costs, it's easy to sew on (yeah) won't look funky....

Agreed. Vivid on background cloth is the way to go. Won't get beat up in the wash as much either.

Our current version for the BDUs is a pretty good option. It's readily available and we don't need to reinvent the wheel. Funny we allow the cloth version on the blue flightsuit (and they look good) but not on the pickle suit.

That's because the Air Force hasn't approved it yet. Now, did we ever ask them? That's the question.

I think there's a board minute from back around 2004 that we either had asked, or we going to ask for permission.

IIRC it was "we are going to ask" and I've never seen any kind of follow-up on it.

[SoCalMarine]

Here's a question for everyone.... does anyone know why the USAF moved from plastic encased insignia to sew-ons? I'll give you a hint. It has to do with safety.

*Based on what family and friends in the AF have told me anyway.