Wing Patches and AF Heraldry standards

[RiverAux]

The fact that Illinois has a general wing patch and also one for their wing headquarters element (separate from the wing headquarters squadron, informally known as the ghost squadron in most wings) brings up an interesting point:

Am I right to assume that in the Air Force, that if you were a member of the 999th Bomb Polishing Squadron which was a unit within the 999th Bomber Wing (or whatever they're called today), you would probably be wearing only the patch of the Squadron and only those on the 999th Bomber Wing staff would wear the Wing patch? 

If that is how it is done in the AF (correct me if I'm wrong), then in CAP the "correct" thing to do would be to eliminate the wear of the wing patch on the sleeve entirely (which we've almost done) and only allow the wear of the squadron patch by most members and the Wing patch only by wing staff members with placement being on the breast pocket for either of them.

 

[Eclipse]

Everyone in Illinois is a member of ILWG, not everyone in Illinois is on Wing Staff.

I don't see a particular issue with this, especially in light of the fact that ILWG has left the wing patch optional.

[Major Carrales]

If that is how it is done in the AF (correct me if I'm wrong), then in CAP the "correct" thing to do would be to eliminate the wear of the wing patch on the sleeve entirely (which we've almost done) and only allow the wear of the squadron patch by most members and the Wing patch only by wing staff members with placement being on the breast pocket for either of them.

The thing is that CAP is not like the USAF in its structure.  CAP is divided into Wings and Regions in an almost "States Rights" situation.  There is no "correct" correlation in that matter.  Unless CAP's structure too moved to match the USAF, there is no "correct" designation in this manner.

I will agree on the wear of Squadron patches.

[mikeylikey]

.......... especially in light of the fact that ILWG has left the wing patch optional.

That is why ILWG is AWESOME!

[Eclipse]

.......... especially in light of the fact that ILWG has left the wing patch optional.

That is why ILWG is AWESOME!

Yeah, buddy!

[JC004]

That isn't what Vanguard is picturing on their web site.  http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6_390_402_404&products_id=7164

So, not my fault (always blame Vanguard when you can!)

But, its nice to know at least one would work.

Mikey's pictures, WHICH HE IS LOADING OFF MY SERVER AND USING MY BANDWIDTH, is the PAWG shield, which is worn by the wing HQ personnel, attached to the pocket of the BDU/Blueberry Uniform.

[RiverAux]

The thing is that CAP is not like the USAF in its structure.  CAP is divided into Wings and Regions in an almost "States Rights" situation.  There is no "correct" correlation in that matter.  Unless CAP's structure too moved to match the USAF, there is no "correct" designation in this manner.

Well, that is true to some extent.  But as long as we're using the squadron, group, and wing terminology we have to accept some of the consequences of that.  We have argued before about whether CAP Wings are really squadrons and that CAP squadrons are really flights, but thats beside the point here. 

[Major Carrales]

The thing is that CAP is not like the USAF in its structure.  CAP is divided into Wings and Regions in an almost "States Rights" situation.  There is no "correct" correlation in that matter.  Unless CAP's structure too moved to match the USAF, there is no "correct" designation in this manner.

Well, that is true to some extent.  But as long as we're using the squadron, group, and wing terminology we have to accept some of the consequences of that.  We have argued before about whether CAP Wings are really squadrons and that CAP squadrons are really flights, but thats beside the point here. 

You do realize that you are in the Civil Air Patrol, and that the Civil Air Patrol...in accordance with CAP policy and by its definitions in modern times, Civil Air Patrol uses Flights, Squadrons (Local), Group (Aministrative), Wing (State), Region (Sections of the Nation) and National Model?  The terms are defined by CAP, not USAF.  A Squadron in the USAF is not and will never be equal to a CAP Squadron.

Don't draw false conclusions from the terminology.  A squadron, by the same logic, should be a collection of fighting ships in a Naval arrangement.  Your main fallacy is using USAF terminology to define a CAP concept...apples and oranges.

[RiverAux]

So, somehow when CAP was formed they magically happened to chose the same names for their units as the Army Air Corps used for its units?  That there is no relationship at all?  Give me a break.   

These are not "CAP concepts".  They are Army/Air Force concepts that we adapted for our use when we were formed.  And at the time, they probably made even more sense since each CAP squadron was bringing multiple planes (privately owned) rather than the 1 corporate plane they typically have today.   The CAP Wing isn't really all that different than a state Air National Guard headquarters, though each of them probably has 1 or 2 wings underneath them.   

[RickFranz]

Let me see if I have this right.  The Wing patch in the form of a shield would be worn on the right pocket, unless there is a Squadron patch in the form of a disc.  Then the Squadron patch would take precedents over the Wing patch.  Is that it? 

[Eclipse]

Let me see if I have this right.  The Wing patch in the form of a shield would be worn on the right pocket, unless there is a Squadron patch in the form of a disc.  Then the Squadron patch would take precedents over the Wing patch.  Is that it? 

Wait, are you asking about regular wing patches? 

They are NEVER worn on the right breast pocket, regardless of whether a unit has an insignia or not.  The only place Wing patches are worn is the left shoulder of the BDU's, or the right shoulder of the flightsuit(s) and utilities.  In the majority of states, the wear is optional.

If you look on Vanguard, you will see what is currently approved for each state as the general membership wing patch.  It appears that the insignias some states have adopted as their wing staffers' "unit" insignia are not shown, which is probably fine, since the rank and file in a respective state can't wear them anyway.

[Major Carrales]

So, somehow when CAP was formed they magically happened to chose the same names for their units as the Army Air Corps used for its units?  That there is no relationship at all?  Give me a break.   

These are not "CAP concepts".  They are Army/Air Force concepts that we adapted for our use when we were formed.  And at the time, they probably made even more sense since each CAP squadron was bringing multiple planes (privately owned) rather than the 1 corporate plane they typically have today.   The CAP Wing isn't really all that different than a state Air National Guard headquarters, though each of them probably has 1 or 2 wings underneath them.   

Ho mummm...the way those terms are used in CAP have a special unique meaning in Civil Air Patrol.  it matter little the origin, much like I don't expect a squadron to have to form into a "square" because that might be the origin of the term.

The way we use the term squadron very much is a CAP concept.  Your second paragraph agrues against your point.  Under no circumstance are there other WINGS underneath the State Level.  CAP Wings have little in common with a State Air National Guard HQ, this contention of your is negated by the fact that there are Region and a National Level for them to answer to.

If I may be so bold, when talking about how CAP is structured it is often best to "keep it within the realm of CAP."  The relationships with other organizations you are drawing are not equal.

[Eclipse]

I agree, while many states treat ES quals and operations on basically a state level, many do not, and the entirety of the rest of the administrivia is distributed through lower echelons.

The majority of guard and reservist units have single points of meeting / training / operations within the state and the members are expected to travel there.  CAP, on the other hand, by design, is distributed throughout a given state for the practicality of a volunteer force serving the local community.

[BillB]

RiverAux, sorry to correct you, but the designations used by CAP that follow the Army Air Corp designations was not selected by CAP.  The numerical designations for Wings follwed the Army Air Corp numbers for the Army's administrative sysytem. Thus a CAP Wing in the Forth Air Corp area carried the first number 4, followed by a Wing designation, usuaully 1 thru 8. Thus Florida being in the 4th Air Corp district became 4-1. CAP Region bounderies also followed the USAAC numbered Corps bounderies.
CAP did start the Squiadron designation to match the USAAC concepts, but remember, most of the CAP members were World War 1 veterans and that came naturally.

[lordmonar]

Would you be surprised to learn that there isn't a single CAP wing that currently has a patch appropriate for a Wing level organization?  While there are a handful of Wings with something that is shield-shaped, none of them were exactly the right type of shield.  The predominant shape is the round shape appropriate for squadrons (according to AF standards).

The new NVWG patch is a standard USAF shield shaped patch.

[Ned]

Would you be surprised to learn that there isn't a single CAP wing that currently has a patch appropriate for a Wing level organization?  While there are a handful of Wings with something that is shield-shaped, none of them were exactly the right type of shield.  The predominant shape is the round shape appropriate for squadrons (according to AF standards).

The USAF is a newer organization than CAP, and it cannot be all that surprising that our insignia do not meet the standards of our sister organization.

After all, the USAF made up their rules long after we had developed the majority of our wing patches.

While there is no comparable CAP Institute of Heraldry, perhaps we should be asking why those USAF guys broke with our tradition and started making up all sorts of new-fangled and largely unnecessary rules when they could simply have followed our examples?

Ned Lee

[lordmonar]

Well there is the practical side of things as well.

Last December were rechartered from a cadet squadron to a composite squadron.

We got about 500+ squadron patches on hand that means we will have to eat about $750+ of merchandise and still put out another $750 to change a single word on our patches.

So I as CC ordered that we will still use the old patches until they are used up.  My guess is that it will be about 2-3 years before we use up the remaining patches.

If we suddenly implement a nation wide standard for patchs.....how much money will be wasted on this simply cosmetic change?

For my unit it will be a $750 direct loss (more like $1500 as we charge twice the unit price as a fund raiser).

Add to this.....the possiblity that we may just loose the patches all together when/if we switch to ABUs.

I agree that this is really a non-issue.  We can look at it again once we move to the ABUs.

[RickFranz]

Let me see if I have this right.  The Wing patch in the form of a shield would be worn on the right pocket, unless there is a Squadron patch in the form of a disc.  Then the Squadron patch would take precedents over the Wing patch.  Is that it? 

Wait, are you asking about regular wing patches? 

They are NEVER worn on the right breast pocket, regardless of whether a unit has an insignia or not.  The only place Wing patches are worn is the left shoulder of the BDU's, or the right shoulder of the flightsuit(s) and utilities.  In the majority of states, the wear is optional.

If you look on Vanguard, you will see what is currently approved for each state as the general membership wing patch.  It appears that the insignias some states have adopted as their wing staffers' "unit" insignia are not shown, which is probably fine, since the rank and file in a respective state can't wear them anyway.

My point is if we follow the Air Force, we would have no Wing Patches on our left shoulder.  I understand, but then we would wear a Command/Wing patch on the right pocket.  Unless you had a squadron patch which would take the Command/Wing patches place.  If we are going to follow the Air Force.  Then all wing patches would have to meet your new crest design.

[RickFranz]

^ The point is with the new ABU we will wear no patches, I guess???  So why is there such a big push on to get all of these patches to fit on something we will not even be able to wear them on?

Unless you use the designs on a Squadron t shirt or something.

[Eclipse]

Squadron insignias are worn and used in a lot more places than (optionally) on the left BDU shoulder.

Flightsuits and utility suits.

Unit t-shirts (as you mentioned)

Unit ball caps.

Unit PT gear.

Challenge coins.

Letterhead.

Web sites.

Facility signage.

Not to mention "affinitywear" like golf shirts, etc., which are not for operational wear but can be worn to work, etc.