Air Crew Wings

[rugger1869]

Wondering what you guys think of this idea... for the A/C wings, just use the pilots wings but lose a wing.



Like this, but with the triangle and prop in the center circle.

[AlphaSigOU]

Nice idea... but it'll never happen. It's been beat to death in another thread which is already locked.
There used to be a stewardess half-wing back in the 60s and 70s (for graduates of the airline stewardess activity hosted by several airlines) and 70s but it's no longer issued. I'm pretty sure the wing design is set in stone at echelons above reality.

[rugger1869]

Nice idea... but it'll never happen. It's been beat to death in another thread which is already locked.
There used to be a stewardess half-wing back in the 60s and 70s (for graduates of the airline stewardess activity hosted by several airlines) and 70s but it's no longer issued. I'm pretty sure the wing design is set in stone at echelons above reality.

That's a shame... Those A/C wings look like an afterthought compared to the rest. Oh well, nothing to lose sleep about.

[Panache]

Nice idea... but it'll never happen. It's been beat to death in another thread which is already locked.
There used to be a stewardess half-wing back in the 60s and 70s (for graduates of the airline stewardess activity hosted by several airlines) and 70s but it's no longer issued. I'm pretty sure the wing design is set in stone at echelons above reality.

That's a shame... Those A/C wings look like an afterthought compared to the rest. Oh well, nothing to lose sleep about.

I agree.  The AC wings look... cheap.  Sloppy.  Like somebody loaded up Microsoft Paint and, literally, took 60 seconds to bang it out.

When I get MS qualified, I probably won't wear them because they're pitiful-looking.  What NHQ should have done was hold a CAP-wide "design our new wings!" contest.  That would have been fun and boosted morale.  What a wasted opportunity.

Personally, I can think of three options that are way, way better:

1) Use the existing CAP Mission Observer wings, but color then bronze/copper.  (or dark-gold for the embroidered version)
2) Use the existing CAP Mission Observer wings, but add a "AIR CREW" scroll to the top or bottom.
3) Use a completely different wing design, like these British Naval Aviation wings (the "droopy wings"), but make it silver and replace the center with the CAP tri-prop logo.

[a2capt]

Well, it's "prematurely published", so who knows what it turns out to be.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Or go the way that the Australians have.

The Australians now use one badge for Pilot and one for everything else:





The bottom design replaced nearly all of their half-wing RAF-type designs.

CAP could have one design for Pilot, and one design for Observer, Scanner, etc.

[flyboy53]

Guy's stick to silver color. Anything but silver WILL NEVER get past the Air Force which has to approve this wing.

As for the half wing, I still think that's a great idea because the half-wing design has been used by CAP in the past, but I'm also not sure the Air Force will buy that one either.

I also don't like AC wings because that's currently the Navy design -- but I get the feeling that someone at NHQ has already submitted some sort of design without input from the field because that's the way it generally happens around here so I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

For the record, some of the designs and photos of existing wings that have been shown are REALLY COOL!

At least a set of wings is finally being considered for all those scanners or other aircrew-related duties.

[GroundHawg]

I posted this in the other thread. I like it, but it is to easy of a solution for a non problem. We have to create serious solutions to our non problems here in CAP land....

[PHall]

The Brevet Wing, which is what your one winged wings are called, are pretty much a British Empire thing.
Brevet wings haven't been used in the US since before WWII.

[Luis R. Ramos]

I like the designs of the BNS and the RAAF wings, without the crown.

Flyer

[KarlIceman]

I'm beginning to think that this idea of wings for Air Crew members is a silly one... How many of you currently have wings?  If you do then you are either an Observer or a Pilot.   ALL Observers started as SCANNERS and without wings......  You are still able to perform the duties of a scanner once you EARNED YOUR OBSERVER WINGS  so for those of you so hot on having wings to wear become an observer and fly back seat.... The same for the photographer... If you noticed in the 39-1 there is still a Balloon Pilot wing .... problem is where do you purchase it? How does one qualify?  Why does it still exist?  Lastly if you want to wear wings think about wearing your AF Blues and purchasing the various sizes of wings in order to make their production worthwhile....unlike the balloonist wings that are still authorized but rarely seen and unable to purchase.   

AND KEEP OUR WINGS SILVER!!!!!

[Eclipse]

^ This assumes that Scanners, who are now Tasked with the bulk of the actual work in the aircraft,
have any interested in being an Observer.

Many don't.

A 1/2-wing also presumes that the scanner is somehow "less", they aren't.

A full wing with "AC" in the middle is a little cheesy, but fine.

Take the Observer mold, change the center, move on.

...there is still a Balloon Pilot wing .... problem is where do you purchase it? How does one qualify?  Why does it still exist?

You buy them here: http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-insignia-balloon-wings-regulation-size-p-7015.html


You wear them if you are a qualified balloon pilot per 60-1 and 35-6.

[MSG Mac]

The Brevet Wing, which is what your one winged wings are called, are pretty much a British Empire thing.
Brevet wings haven't been used in the US since before WWII.

The Navy and Coast Guard used half wings well into the sixties for dirigible and blimp pilots.

[lordmonar]

^ This assumes that Scanners, who are now Tasked with the bulk of the actual work in the aircraft,
have any interested in being an Observer.

Many don't.

A 1/2-wing also presumes that the scanner is somehow "less", they aren't.

A full wing with "AC" in the middle is a little cheesy, but fine.

Take the Observer mold, change the center, move on.

Take the Observer wings......and award it to scanners and move on.....
Vice that....take the pilot wings.....award that at MS and then use the sheild version of the CAP wings (posted early in this thread) and award that to pilots (it is closer to USAF pilot wings anyway).

Stop the whole fight over the which crew position is carrying the actual bulk of the work.....it about team work.  A full crew working together and getting the mission done.

[TexasCadet]

^ This assumes that Scanners, who are now Tasked with the bulk of the actual work in the aircraft,
have any interested in being an Observer.

Many don't.

A 1/2-wing also presumes that the scanner is somehow "less", they aren't.

A full wing with "AC" in the middle is a little cheesy, but fine.

Take the Observer mold, change the center, move on.

...there is still a Balloon Pilot wing .... problem is where do you purchase it? How does one qualify?  Why does it still exist?

You buy them here: http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-insignia-balloon-wings-regulation-size-p-7015.html


You wear them if you are a qualified balloon pilot per 60-1 and 35-6.

That looks like a light bulb with wings.

[HGjunkie]

That looks like a light bulb with wings.

[Flying Pig]

Just wear observer wing upside down. Unique design and indirectly supports the members protests towards just becoming an observer.  Political yet stylish. 

[BillB]

P Hall.   CAP used the half wing for observers in the 1940's and later used a half wing for Stewardess School graduates. Both during and afrter WW II. So there has been at least in CAP a history of using the half wing.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I support the half wing idea.

I only used the gold/bronze RAAF wings because those were the best images I found.  I think those are for wear on civilian clothing, as the ones worn by actual uniformed personnel are kind of a pewter/silver on their shirts (ones on service dress are gold-bullion embroidered, and those on other clothing are cloth).



I think the "L" (loadmaster) and "E" (flight engineer) half-wings are still used but everything else (navigator, WSO, etc) have been replaced by the full wing with the Southern Cross design.

[Panache]

Vice that....take the pilot wings.....award that at MS and then use the sheild version of the CAP wings (posted early in this thread) and award that to pilots (it is closer to USAF pilot wings anyway).

Like the USAF Fighter Mafia would ever allow that.

[AlphaSigOU]

Vice that....take the pilot wings.....award that at MS and then use the sheild version of the CAP wings (posted early in this thread) and award that to pilots (it is closer to USAF pilot wings anyway).

Like the USAF Fighter Mafia would ever allow that.

Or more correctly... Ma Blue would probably resist any attempt from their 'red-headed step-children' to adopt wings that would resemble the Universal Management Badge!

[Storm Chaser]

Vice that....take the pilot wings.....award that at MS and then use the sheild version of the CAP wings (posted early in this thread) and award that to pilots (it is closer to USAF pilot wings anyway).

Actually, in the U.S. Air Force it is the Combat System Officers/Navigators/Observers who have the USAF shield on their wings, not the pilots. The shield used in the pilot wings is a different shield, resembling that used in the Coat of Arms of the United States.

USAF CSO/Navigator/Observer Badge:


USAF Pilot Badge:

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The Navigator style is still used?  For what - F-15E Wizzos?  I had thought all the transport planes now had computerised navigation.

I would support using the Pilot wing with enamelled RWB National shield (USAF does not use that, as best I know) with "CAP" superimposed over it.

For the other Aircrew wings use the enamelled tri-prop device.

Or for Pilot use the enamelled tri-prop and for Aircrew use maybe a two-bladed prop?

[Papabird]

The Navigator style is still used?  For what - F-15E Wizzos?  I had thought all the transport planes now had computerised navigation.

I would support using the Pilot wing with enamelled RWB National shield (USAF does not use that, as best I know) with "CAP" superimposed over it.

For the other Aircrew wings use the enamelled tri-prop device.

Or for Pilot use the enamelled tri-prop and for Aircrew use maybe a two-bladed prop?

Navs are still around on a lot of Air frames.  (B-52's & B-1b I know for sure).  A recent USAF video showed Major Gregory Watson (A CAP Spaatz cadet) and current B-52 Nav, as one of the faces of the Force.   So, yeah, they are still around. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Correction so noted, Sir.

[AlphaSigOU]

Air Force astronauts not rated as pilots (mission/payload specialists) are awarded AF 'observer' wings (same as 'naviguesser' wings) upon completion of astronaut candidate (ascan) training at NASA. They don't earn the 'shooting star' on the shield until they have flown their first mission into space (50 miles + altitude).

[Storm Chaser]

The Navigator style is still used?  For what - F-15E Wizzos?  I had thought all the transport planes now had computerised navigation.

Navigator can refer to a crew position or an aeronautical rating. Those who graduated Undergraduate Navigator Training prior to 2009 retained their Navigator rating unless they transitioned to the Combat System Officer (CSO) track. I, for example, am a rated Navigator not a CSO. WSO and EWOs, who attended training prior to 2009, received the Navigator rating as well, even though their specialty and crew position are WSO and EWO, respectively.

On the other hand, CSOs assigned to an aircraft with a Navigator crew position (C-130s, for example), would retain their CSO rating, but would be Navigators on that aircraft. I am both. I have crew mates that are CSO rated, but Navigators on our C-130 aircraft.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The Navigator style is still used?  For what - F-15E Wizzos?  I had thought all the transport planes now had computerised navigation.

Navigator can refer to a crew position or an aeronautical rating. Those who graduated Undergraduate Navigator Training prior to 2009 retained their Navigator rating unless they transitioned to the Combat System Officer (CSO) track. I, for example, am a rated Navigator not a CSO. WSO and EWOs, who attended training prior to 2009, received the Navigator rating as well, even though their specialty and crew position are WSO and EWO, respectively.

On the other hand, CSOs assigned to an aircraft with a Navigator crew position (C-130s, for example), would retain their CSO rating, but would be Navigators on that aircraft. I am both. I have crew mates that are CSO rated, but Navigators on our C-130 aircraft.

Wow.  That's a lot of information.

EWO's - like on EF-111's (an aircraft I don't see why was taken out of use, but they didn't ask me)?

[Storm Chaser]

Wow.  That's a lot of information.

EWO's - like on EF-111's (an aircraft I don't see why was taken out of use, but they didn't ask me)?

Electronic Warfare Officers (EWOs) are assigned to aircraft such as the MC-130H, EC-130H and the now retired EF-111.

Weapon Systems Officers (WSOs) are assigned to aircraft such as the F-15E.

[flyboy53]

The Navigator style is still used?  For what - F-15E Wizzos?  I had thought all the transport planes now had computerised navigation.

Navigator can refer to a crew position or an aeronautical rating. Those who graduated Undergraduate Navigator Training prior to 2009 retained their Navigator rating unless they transitioned to the Combat System Officer (CSO) track. I, for example, am a rated Navigator not a CSO. WSO and EWOs, who attended training prior to 2009, received the Navigator rating as well, even though their specialty and crew position are WSO and EWO, respectively.

On the other hand, CSOs assigned to an aircraft with a Navigator crew position (C-130s, for example), would retain their CSO rating, but would be Navigators on that aircraft. I am both. I have crew mates that are CSO rated, but Navigators on our C-130 aircraft.

Wow.  That's a lot of information.

EWO's - like on EF-111's (an aircraft I don't see why was taken out of use, but they didn't ask me)?

Last time I was with the 366th Fighter Wing, EF-111 right-seaters were WSOs, not EWOs. When did that change?

Air Force astronauts not rated as pilots (mission/payload specialists) are awarded AF 'observer' wings (same as 'naviguesser' wings) upon completion of astronaut candidate (ascan) training at NASA. They don't earn the 'shooting star' on the shield until they have flown their first mission into space (50 miles + altitude).

It's more appropriate to say "awarded the observer rating." I always thought the observer rating was really cool because it was like an anything rating. There are some who had to be dual rated as pilots and bombardiers to be observers. You know the one set of wings we haven't talked about yet? Technical Observers...why not do that instead of aircrew. That would mean using the existing observer wings and put a big "T" somewhere in the design. Wouldn't that be more appropriate for scanners, aerial photographers and the various systems operators?

Check it out:

http://www.ww2wings.com/wings/usaaf/technicalobserver/images/presleyaaftechobserverfrtsm.jpg

[Storm Chaser]

Last time I was with the 366th Fighter Wing, EF-111 right-seaters were WSOs, not EWOs. When did that change?

According to GlobalSecurity.org and General Dynamics Fact Sheet, the EF-111A aircraft had a pilot and an EWO. Other variants of the F-111 aircraft had a pilot and a WSO.

[PHall]

The Navigator style is still used?  For what - F-15E Wizzos?  I had thought all the transport planes now had computerised navigation.

I would support using the Pilot wing with enamelled RWB National shield (USAF does not use that, as best I know) with "CAP" superimposed over it.

For the other Aircrew wings use the enamelled tri-prop device.

Or for Pilot use the enamelled tri-prop and for Aircrew use maybe a two-bladed prop?

Navs still fly on RC-135's, AC/EC/MC-130's, B-52H, E-4B, VC-25A, F-15E and B-1B.
EWOs still fly on B-52H, RC-135's and EC/MC-130's.

[Mitchell 1969]

The Brevet Wing, which is what your one winged wings are called, are pretty much a British Empire thing.
Brevet wings haven't been used in the US since before WWII.

Nah. "Brevet" is the Commonwealth term for all aviation wings, whether full or half.

[Robert Hartigan]

Why not follow the lead of the solo wings? The pre solo badge does not have a prop. Aircrew wings could be like observer wings minus the prop.

[Brit_in_CAP]

The Brevet Wing, which is what your one winged wings are called, are pretty much a British Empire thing.
Brevet wings haven't been used in the US since before WWII.

Nah. "Brevet" is the Commonwealth term for all aviation wings, whether full or half.

Entirely correct; in my former Service (Royal Air Force) and those of the British Commonwealth the 'aircrew badge' is referred to as the aircrew brevet and the term applies to all aircrew badges (pilot, navigator, loadmaster etc) and is applied to both commissioned and non-commissioned ranks.  In the British military the term is also used by the Army Air Corps and the Fleet Air Arm.  As far as I can recall the term doesn't apply to the Operational Parachutist badge, the Sport Parachutist badge or similar.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The RAF and RAAF have consolidated a lot of their "brevets."



I think that this is now what is awarded to most non-pilot aircrew in the RAF.

Similarly for the RAAF:



I think the RNZAF still uses a plethora of half-wings, and the RCAF has full "two-wing" badges for almost all aircrew positions, except these:



However, they have switched half-wings to ground trades, worn over the right pocket!  Go figure.


Military Police

As for CAP, I do not think the idea of adopting the "solo" badge (or something like the AFROTC) one as a model is a bad idea.



Maybe replace the design with our enamelled red/white/blue prop/triangle?



That would make it unmistakably "us."

[Brit_in_CAP]

Sadly all too true as the number of non-pilot aircrew categories has reduced.  The only exceptions to the picture shown by CyBorg is the Fighter Controller and Airborne Technician which both have the initial letters instead of RAF.

The Parachute Jumping Instructors also wear their 'wings' in similar style as they are officially considered to be Honorary Aircrew; all other 'para' badges go on the sleeve.

[Panache]

Two other suggestions.  (again, please excuse my horrible photoshop skills)

Both are fairly simple, but distinctive enough from both CAP Mission Pilot wings as well as USAF wings.  They keep the CAP logo intact.

The first one is the wings, but with the center portion simply being the triangle with the tri-prop in the center, with no circle around it.  The second adds a superimposed "C" on top of it (giving the triangle-and-C a "AC" effect).

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

^^Not the worst idea presented here.

[KarlIceman]

The Navigator style is still used?  For what - F-15E Wizzos?  I had thought all the transport planes now had computerised navigation.

I would support using the Pilot wing with enamelled RWB National shield (USAF does not use that, as best I know) with "CAP" superimposed over it.

For the other Aircrew wings use the enamelled tri-prop device.

Or for Pilot use the enamelled tri-prop and for Aircrew use maybe a two-bladed prop?

what would you think about the shield with the tri-prop such as is on the Cadet Programs badge for the pilots and the disk/circle such as on the current Observer wings only without the superimposed "O" for the AC Wings?

[THRAWN]

Still not sold on the idea or necessity of a new badge. There is an aircrew badge in existence. Use the basic for MS, senior for MO, AP, etc, master for AOBD. Mirrors the GTB progression, and only requires a reg change.

[jeders]

There is an aircrew badge in existence.

No, there isn't. There is a badge for a single aircrew qualification, but there is not a single badge for all aircrew qualifications, hence the need for a badge.

[THRAWN]

No need because that insignia can be redesignated with a zero cost reg change....

There is an aircrew badge in existence.

No, there isn't. There is a badge for a single aircrew qualification, but there is not a single badge for all aircrew qualifications, hence the need for a badge.

[jeders]

No need because that insignia can be redesignated with a zero cost reg change....

There is an aircrew badge in existence.

No, there isn't. There is a badge for a single aircrew qualification, but there is not a single badge for all aircrew qualifications, hence the need for a badge.

Except for all the observers with either the basic wings or master wings who now have to go out and buy the senior wings, the AOBDs who have to go out and buy master wings. Then there is the confusion created by people who don't get the memo and think that the guy with the master observer wings has been on hundreds of missions when in fact he's never done anything more than fly as a pilot.

Just because we do it for the ground side does not mean we should do it for the air side.

Edit: And please put your quotes at the top of your reply, not the bottom. It keeps things from getting confused and aligns better with reality.

[THRAWN]

Why? It works. It wasn't always like this on the ground side either. Institutional inertia and creating insignia for legacy's sake are not valid reasons...

No need because that insignia can be redesignated with a zero cost reg change....

There is an aircrew badge in existence.

No, there isn't. There is a badge for a single aircrew qualification, but there is not a single badge for all aircrew qualifications, hence the need for a badge.

Except for all the observers with either the basic wings or master wings who now have to go out and buy the senior wings, the AOBDs who have to go out and buy master wings. Then there is the confusion created by people who don't get the memo and think that the guy with the master observer wings has been on hundreds of missions when in fact he's never done anything more than fly as a pilot.

Just because we do it for the ground side does not mean we should do it for the air side.

Edit: And please put your quotes at the top of your reply, not the bottom. It keeps things from getting confused and aligns better with reality.

[Mitchell 1969]

Why? It works. It wasn't always like this on the ground side either. Institutional inertia and creating insignia for legacy's sake are not valid reasons...

No need because that insignia can be redesignated with a zero cost reg change....

There is an aircrew badge in existence.

No, there isn't. There is a badge for a single aircrew qualification, but there is not a single badge for all aircrew qualifications, hence the need for a badge.

Except for all the observers with either the basic wings or master wings who now have to go out and buy the senior wings, the AOBDs who have to go out and buy master wings. Then there is the confusion created by people who don't get the memo and think that the guy with the master observer wings has been on hundreds of missions when in fact he's never done anything more than fly as a pilot.

Just because we do it for the ground side does not mean we should do it for the air side.

Edit: And please put your quotes at the top of your reply, not the bottom. It keeps things from getting confused and aligns better with reality.

Because it doesn't really work. Both in CAP and USAF, the star and wreathed star are used to indicate further proficiency and experience over and above the basic badge without the star or wreathed star.

A pilot is a pilot. Add a star and what is conveyed is "this is a pilot with more experience as a pilot" and not "this is somebody who does something different than what a pilot does."

Your idea is a considerable deviation from long tested and proven practice, not to mention departure from practicality and tradition. Hardly the basis for an accusation of "institutional inertia."

[flyboy53]

Why? It works. It wasn't always like this on the ground side either. Institutional inertia and creating insignia for legacy's sake are not valid reasons...

No need because that insignia can be redesignated with a zero cost reg change....

There is an aircrew badge in existence.

No, there isn't. There is a badge for a single aircrew qualification, but there is not a single badge for all aircrew qualifications, hence the need for a badge.

Except for all the observers with either the basic wings or master wings who now have to go out and buy the senior wings, the AOBDs who have to go out and buy master wings. Then there is the confusion created by people who don't get the memo and think that the guy with the master observer wings has been on hundreds of missions when in fact he's never done anything more than fly as a pilot.

Just because we do it for the ground side does not mean we should do it for the air side.

Edit: And please put your quotes at the top of your reply, not the bottom. It keeps things from getting confused and aligns better with reality.

Because it doesn't really work. Both in CAP and USAF, the star and wreathed star are used to indicate further proficiency and experience over and above the basic badge without the star or wreathed star.

A pilot is a pilot. Add a star and what is conveyed is "this is a pilot with more experience as a pilot" and not "this is somebody who does something different than what a pilot does."

Your idea is a considerable deviation from long tested and proven practice, not to mention departure from practicality and tradition. Hardly the basis for an accusation of "institutional inertia."

Agreed. There are already those who abuse/twist/interpret the regs and put on master wings just because they believe they're entitled to them after three or more years with the rating. (I personally know three of them).

Changing the system to reflect ES qualification would only create a division amongst aircrew members and create an unsafe ORM situation -- because pilot ratings are based on proficiency and hours. It is already an issue that a pilot has to earn ten times more flight time to get senior and command ratings.

Originally, observers didn't have senior and master ratings. I think the senior observer rating didn't surface until some time in the early 1960s, and given the tough requirements for observers back then, I can only guess what someone had to do to earn that rating. The reason for that was because pilots generally fly more often then observers -- and finding observers with 200 to 300 hours in the cockpit is really rare. I, myself, earned senior observer wings. It took four years. I don't see myself ever earning master wings.

The reality of this set of wings is that NHQ finally recognized that there were aircrew members who had no badge to recognize their duties. The thing is, do you really think someone is going earn a hundred hours as an aircrew member when the real intent is to continue training into observer status.

[Panache]

The reality of this set of wings is that NHQ finally recognized that there were aircrew members who had no badge to recognize their duties. The thing is, do you really think someone is going earn a hundred hours as an aircrew member when the real intent is to continue training into observer status.

Honestly, yes.  I think a significant amount of non-pilots would be quite happy remaining "just" Mission Scanners or Aerial Photographers, and really don't have any burning desire to "upgrade" to Mission Observer.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The reality of this set of wings is that NHQ finally recognized that there were aircrew members who had no badge to recognize their duties. The thing is, do you really think someone is going earn a hundred hours as an aircrew member when the real intent is to continue training into observer status.

Honestly, yes.  I think a significant amount of non-pilots would be quite happy remaining "just" Mission Scanners or Aerial Photographers, and really don't have any burning desire to "upgrade" to Mission Observer.

I have known many people who would prefer this, who have no desire to learn all the communications/navigation/maps/etc that go with the Observer role.

[mdickinson]

Delete this. Accidental double-post.

[mdickinson]

Brevet wings haven't been used in the US since before WWII.

Actually CAP had a half-wing insignia. It was called the CAP Stewardess Badge. In the '60s or '70s I think.

[mdickinson]

in the 39-1 there is still a Balloon Pilot wing .... problem is where do you purchase it? How does one qualify?  Why does it still exist?  [...]
....unlike the balloonist wings that are still authorized but rarely seen and unable to purchase.

Karliceman,
I had no difficulty buying my balloonist wings (from the CAP store at Maxwell, later CAPMart) and wear them with pride. So do all the other balloon pilots who give cadet orientation rides in their balloons, and who instruct at the annual balloon flight academy in Illinois.

The requirements for the wings were given in CAPR35-6 last time I checked.

Are you saying Vanguard does not sell them? Did you check?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The Navy still has a half wing for a "dirigible pilot."



http://www.history.navy.mil/nan/wings/wingsn.htm

[Flying Pig]

in the 39-1 there is still a Balloon Pilot wing .... problem is where do you purchase it? How does one qualify?  Why does it still exist?  [...]
....unlike the balloonist wings that are still authorized but rarely seen and unable to purchase.

Karliceman,
I had no difficulty buying my balloonist wings (from the CAP store at Maxwell, later CAPMart) and wear them with pride. So do all the other balloon pilots who give cadet orientation rides in their balloons, and who instruct at the annual balloon flight academy in Illinois.

The requirements for the wings were given in CAPR35-6 last time I checked.

Are you saying Vanguard does not sell them? Did you check?

You were the guy everyone thought was wearing "CAP jump wings" back in my cadet days

[vento]

in the 39-1 there is still a Balloon Pilot wing .... problem is where do you purchase it? How does one qualify?  Why does it still exist?  [...]
....unlike the balloonist wings that are still authorized but rarely seen and unable to purchase.

Karliceman,
I had no difficulty buying my balloonist wings (from the CAP store at Maxwell, later CAPMart) and wear them with pride. So do all the other balloon pilots who give cadet orientation rides in their balloons, and who instruct at the annual balloon flight academy in Illinois.

The requirements for the wings were given in CAPR35-6 last time I checked.

Are you saying Vanguard does not sell them? Did you check?

You were the guy everyone thought was wearing "CAP jump wings" back in my cadet days

It does look like "jumper" wings. 
Vanguard still list it under insignias.

[supertigerCH]

we call it... the flying light bulb

[CAP_truth]

See draft of CAPM39-1 page 145 figure A7-1 which show a perposed AC wings

[Eclipse]

Yes, this was what spurred many comments on the issue.

Mis-matched. off-center font, and styled in a way that emulates Naval tradition, not CAP.

[KarlIceman]

in the 39-1 there is still a Balloon Pilot wing .... problem is where do you purchase it? How does one qualify?  Why does it still exist?  [...]
....unlike the balloonist wings that are still authorized but rarely seen and unable to purchase.

Karliceman,
I had no difficulty buying my balloonist wings (from the CAP store at Maxwell, later CAPMart) and wear them with pride. So do all the other balloon pilots who give cadet orientation rides in their balloons, and who instruct at the annual balloon flight academy in Illinois.

The requirements for the wings were given in CAPR35-6 last time I checked.

Are you saying Vanguard does not sell them? Did you check?

You were the guy everyone thought was wearing "CAP jump wings" back in my cadet days

Thanks to all of you who have pointed out in Vanguard where the Balloon wings are located....Now do the Air Crew scarves still exist?.............  Who had the "CAP jump wings ?"

[NIN]

Who had the "CAP jump wings ?"

Me.

[Eclipse]

Now do the Air Crew scarves still exist?

Yes, complete with incorrect MAJCOM:
http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-scarf-flight-suit-scarf-p-16248.html

Atomic Wedgie insurance is extra.

[a2capt]

The chickens are running away! That thing.. LOL.
Yes, with the wrong MAJCOM, except.. the Big V hasn't sold out yet, and probably never will.

[ColonelJack]

Now do the Air Crew scarves still exist?

Yes, complete with incorrect MAJCOM:
http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-scarf-flight-suit-scarf-p-16248.html

Atomic Wedgie insurance is extra.

Visiting that Vanguard page, I see that they list "no product reviews."  I guess that means they didn't use the one I wrote.  (Could have been all those bad things I said about it.........nah.)

Jack

[PHall]

The CAP-USAF scarf is no better and no worse then the ones many Air Force units attempt to inflict on their members.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The CAP-USAF scarf is no better and no worse then the ones many Air Force units attempt to inflict on their members.

And at least it has the MAJCOM shield we SHOULD have kept, along with the CAP-USAF shield, and it does not have the bloody awful triangle thingy.

[vento]

Now do the Air Crew scarves still exist?

Yes, complete with incorrect MAJCOM:
http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-scarf-flight-suit-scarf-p-16248.html

Atomic Wedgie insurance is extra.

Visiting that Vanguard page, I see that they list "no product reviews."  I guess that means they didn't use the one I wrote.  (Could have been all those bad things I said about it.........nah.)

Jack

They will only publish it if you have purchased the item you are reviewing. Unless, of course, <GASP> you've purchased that thingy!

[ColonelJack]

Now do the Air Crew scarves still exist?

Yes, complete with incorrect MAJCOM:
http://www.vanguardmil.com/civil-air-patrol-scarf-flight-suit-scarf-p-16248.html

Atomic Wedgie insurance is extra.

Visiting that Vanguard page, I see that they list "no product reviews."  I guess that means they didn't use the one I wrote.  (Could have been all those bad things I said about it.........nah.)

Jack

They will only publish it if you have purchased the item you are reviewing. Unless, of course, <GASP> you've purchased that thingy!

No, no, a thousand times, no!  I would not purchase that incredibly non-attractive thingy!  I can find gazillions of better things to spend that money on.

Jack

[Shuman 14]

Who had the "CAP jump wings ?"

Me.

CAP had a Parachutist Qualification? 

[LSThiker]

CAP had a Parachutist Qualification? 

Funny story.  I was a C/Lt Col one year and was attending NBB.  Out of the blue, this C/Capt (do not know who it was, what wing he was from, or anything) walks up to me.  Not even introducing himself or anything, he simply states

C/Capt: You need to take those off 
Me:  Take what off?
C/Capt:  CAP does not have an parachuting school
Me:  Yeah
C/Capt:  So how would you have earned those
Me:  The U.S. Army Airborne School 

He was dazed and confused as I was walking away

[NIN]

CAP had a Parachutist Qualification? 

Yep. And jump wings.

[Shuman 14]

CAP had a Parachutist Qualification? 

Yep. And jump wings.

What did the wings look like? What did the school/course consist of? What happened that caused it to close?

[LSThiker]

What did the wings look like? What did the school/course consist of? What happened that caused it to close?

Attached is a monograph on the CAP parachutist.

[BillB]

When I was SER DCS Cadet Programs, there was one Wing in SER that ran a Parachute program. I "think" it was Georgia. It was a wing level Cadet Special Activity. But I don't remember any awarded bling for completing the school.

[NIN]

This is a tough nut to crack, and as you can imagine I have been involved in a few of these discussions over the years.

The larger problem with that kind of a program is that in the United States most states don't allow a minor to execute an all-encompassing waiver like you have at a parachute center.  Our local legal beagles can opine more on that subject, but I believe the legal term is "minor subrogation".

So in most places, you have to be 18 years old to jump either static line or accelerated freefall. And of course, this excludes a large percentage of our cadet population.

There are still a few states that allow parachuting at 16. Florida comes to mind, as does Ohio and Oklahoma.

And of course, you have the 52-16 prohibition on parachuting as a cadet activity ( but not as a senior activity! ).

Bill, do you recall how long ago that was? I mean, you know, without dating yourself too badly.

By the way, I have, let me think, at least two jumps into CAP activities, including a flag jump into an encampment graduation parade.

The only person I think I know who has made more jumps into a CAP activity is Lt Col Dave Siemiet who started the combat control orientation course at Pope. I'm trying to catch up.

[GrimReaper]

Thanks for sharing the CAP parachutists history.  I belong to MIWG and live in the areas mentioned in this article, very cool, I'm passing this on to others within my Squadron




Capt G
GLR-MI-117

[GroundHawg]

CAP had a Parachutist Qualification? 

Funny story.  I was a C/Lt Col one year and was attending NBB.  Out of the blue, this C/Capt (do not know who it was, what wing he was from, or anything) walks up to me.  Not even introducing himself or anything, he simply states

C/Capt: You need to take those off 
Me:  Take what off?
C/Capt:  CAP does not have an parachuting school
Me:  Yeah
C/Capt:  So how would you have earned those
Me:  The U.S. Army Airborne School 

He was dazed and confused as I was walking away

WIWAC, There was a Spaatz cadet that sported Air Assault and Airborne wings. He was a ROTC Cadet and I think is now a Army LTC. I believe I have a pic somewhere, it drew some looks for sure.

[NIN]

WIWAC, There was a Spaatz cadet that sported Air Assault and Airborne wings. He was a ROTC Cadet and I think is now a Army LTC. I believe I have a pic somewhere, it drew some looks for sure.

If he's an LTC now, he might be a heck of a fast-burner.

Or maybe I'm thinking of the cadet who went to A-Stan for a short tour and was sporting a CIB along with the bullwinkle badge and jumpwings.

[LSThiker]

WIWAC, There was a Spaatz cadet that sported Air Assault and Airborne wings. He was a ROTC Cadet and I think is now a Army LTC. I believe I have a pic somewhere, it drew some looks for sure.

I was scheduled to be sporting both the Air Assault and Airborne Wings.  Unfortunately, due to budget cuts back then, my air assault slot was cancelled.  I was at least able to keep my airborne slot.

[Shuman 14]

What did the wings look like? What did the school/course consist of? What happened that caused it to close?

Attached is a monograph on the CAP parachutist.

Very interesting. Thank you for posting it.

[GroundHawg]

WIWAC, There was a Spaatz cadet that sported Air Assault and Airborne wings. He was a ROTC Cadet and I think is now a Army LTC. I believe I have a pic somewhere, it drew some looks for sure.

If he's an LTC now, he might be a heck of a fast-burner.

Or maybe I'm thinking of the cadet who went to A-Stan for a short tour and was sporting a CIB along with the bullwinkle badge and jumpwings.

Per this article, his is indeed a LTC. He always was above and beyond. (as Spaatz cadets tend to be)

http://www.army.mil/article/105532

A nice clip from when he was a still a Major.

http://www.c-span.org/video/?299774-5/role-mission-rotc

[NIN]

Ah, completely different guy than I was thinking of.

LSThiker, thanks for digging out that doc. That's my scan and PDF, I'm not sure that I know where it is at right now in my archives.

Having grown up in Michigan Wing, the parachute group is legendary in the whispered oral history of the wing. My unit as a cadet was not far from the airfield mentioned, and I commanded a squadron not far from there as well. ( of course you would never know that today, as that airfield has been swallowed up by a subdivision)

One of the gentleman mentioned in that article, his son was one of my instructors when I learned how to skydive.

[HGjunkie]

There are still a few states that allow parachuting at 16. Florida comes to mind, as does Ohio and Oklahoma.

You have to be 18 to skydive in florida.

[flyboy53]

On this same subject, anybody know of a CAP policy allowing cadets to wear the aviation cadet wing above their ribbons if they're in flight training?

I can't find it in the regs, but the cadet in question said he was presented the officer wing and prop device to show he was in flight training.

[Storm Chaser]

The only aeronautical badges authorized are those prescribed in CAPR 35-6. Cadets can earn the CAP Cadet Pre-Solo and Solo Pilot Ratings if they meet the requirements in CAPR 60-1.

[Storm Chaser]

I couldn't find the requirements for pre-solo in CAPR 60-1, so I looked in the CAP Knowledgebase and found this:

The criteria for pre-solo wings referenced in CAPR 35-6 Aeronautical Ratings, Emergency Services Patch and Badges, and Ground Team Badges 17 Aug 2002 and shown in CAPM 39-1 Figure 6-16 Aviation Badges are no longer included in CAPR 60-1 CAP Flight Management 12 December 2012 or under pilot ratings in CAP eServices .  The requirements were:

CAP Cadet Pre-solo Rating: The following basic requirements must be met to be qualified as a CAP cadet pre-solo pilot.  This qualification may only be earned at an organized wing or higher-level flight encampment/academy.

(1) Be an active CAP member at least 16 years of age (for balloon or glider be age 14 or older).
(2) Have received the required instruction from a CAP FAA certificated flight instructor/glider (CFI/CFIG), at a wing level or higher flight encampment/academy and have a written record documenting instruction of all items of FAR 61.87 in the appropriate aircraft.
(3) Complete a pre-solo qualification flight.  Pre-solo qualification flight: A flight performed at a CAP wing level or higher flight encampment/academy during which the CAP student pilot demonstrates, to an onboard CAP certificated flight instructor (CFI), that the student pilot has the ability to fly the aircraft without assistance from the on board CAP CFI.  This flight does not require an FAA endorsement and does not fulfill FAA requirements for solo flight; however the prerequisite for a pre-solo qualification is completion of all requirements in the appropriate portion of FAR 61.87.

[NIN]

You have to be 18 to skydive in florida.

Hmmm. Used to be 16.  Some USAC (then the ACA) cadets went to a DZ in FL and took a SL course 8 or 9 years ago...

[arajca]

On this same subject, anybody know of a CAP policy allowing cadets to wear the aviation cadet wing above their ribbons if they're in flight training?

I can't find it in the regs, but the cadet in question said he was presented the officer wing and prop device to show he was in flight training.

In a word...no.

[mdickinson]

The only aeronautical badges authorized are those prescribed in CAPR 35-6.
Cadets can earn the CAP Cadet Pre-Solo and Solo Pilot Ratings if they meet the requirements in CAPR 60-1.

Actually, cadets can earn any of the following wings by meeting the requirements given in CAPR 35-6 (some of which reference CAPR 60-1).

• CAP Cadet Pre-Solo Wings*
• 
  CAP Solo Pilot Wings
• 
  CAP Pilot Wings
• 
  CAP Senior Pilot Wings
• 
  CAP Glider Pilot Wings
• 
  CAP Balloon Pilot Wings
• 
  CAP Observer Wings

Of course, some of those will require a certain age:

• To earn solo wings, you must solo an aircraft. The FAA requires you must be 14 (glider or balloon) or 16 (airplane) to do this.
  
• To earn glider pilot wings, you must hold a private pilot certificate or above with glider rating. The FAA requires you to be 16 to do this.
  
• To earn balloon pilot wings, you must hold a private pilot certificate or above with a balloon rating. The FAA requires you to be 16 to do this.
  
• To earn pilot wings, you must hold a private pilot certificate or above with airplane rating. The FAA requires you to be 17 to do this. (Likewise, senior pilot requires 3 years active piloting since your first CAPF 5 checkride, so it would not be possible to earn that before age 20.)
  
• To earn observer wings, you must hold the Mission Observer rating. CAP requires you to be 18 to do this.

Note, CAPR 35-6 also mentions three other wings which I removed from the list above because they can't be earned by cadets:

• CAP Command Pilot Wings - These require 5 years active piloting since the first CAPF5 checkride. Therefore age 22 would be the minimum possible (most likely several years later, due to the requirement to log 2000 hours pilot time). So that can't be earned by a cadet.
• 
  CAP Senior Observer Wings - requires 3 years experience after earning the Mission Observer rating, so could not be earned before age 21.
• 
  CAP Master Observer Wings - requires 5 years experience after earning the Mission Observer rating, so could not be earned before age 23.

* - 35-6 refers to 60-1 for requirements, but they are no longer in 60-1. Refer to CAP Knowledgebase (quoted by StormChaser 3 messages before this one) for requirements.

[Storm Chaser]

^ I didn't say that cadets can ONLY earn the solo and pre-solo wings, only that they can earn them. I was trying to clarify that there is no "aviation cadet wings", but that the only cadet-specific wings are the solo and pre-solo wings.

[GroundHawg]

The only aeronautical badges authorized are those prescribed in CAPR 35-6.
Cadets can earn the CAP Cadet Pre-Solo and Solo Pilot Ratings if they meet the requirements in CAPR 60-1.

Actually, cadets can earn any of the following wings by meeting the requirements given in CAPR 35-6 (some of which reference CAPR 60-1).

• CAP Cadet Pre-Solo Wings*
• 
  CAP Solo Pilot Wings
• 
  CAP Pilot Wings
• 
  CAP Senior Pilot Wings
• 
  CAP Glider Pilot Wings
• 
  CAP Balloon Pilot Wings
• 
  CAP Observer Wings

Of course, some of those will require a certain age:

• To earn solo wings, you must solo an aircraft. The FAA requires you must be 14 (glider or balloon) or 16 (airplane) to do this.
  
• To earn glider pilot wings, you must hold a private pilot certificate or above with glider rating. The FAA requires you to be 16 to do this.
  
• To earn balloon pilot wings, you must hold a private pilot certificate or above with a balloon rating. The FAA requires you to be 16 to do this.
  
• To earn pilot wings, you must hold a private pilot certificate or above with airplane rating. The FAA requires you to be 17 to do this. (Likewise, senior pilot requires 3 years active piloting since your first CAPF 5 checkride, so it would not be possible to earn that before age 20.)
  
• To earn observer wings, you must hold the Mission Observer rating. CAP requires you to be 18 to do this.

Note, CAPR 35-6 also mentions three other wings which I removed from the list above because they can't be earned by cadets:

• CAP Command Pilot Wings - These require 5 years active piloting since the first CAPF5 checkride. Therefore age 22 would be the minimum possible (most likely several years later, due to the requirement to log 2000 hours pilot time). So that can't be earned by a cadet.
• 
  CAP Senior Observer Wings - requires 3 years experience after earning the Mission Observer rating, so could not be earned before age 21.
• 
  CAP Master Observer Wings - requires 5 years experience after earning the Mission Observer rating, so could not be earned before age 23.

* - 35-6 refers to 60-1 for requirements, but they are no longer in 60-1. Refer to CAP Knowledgebase (quoted by StormChaser 3 messages before this one) for requirements.

Can someone explain the logic behind the requirement for Glider and Balloon Wings to have a FAA pilots license with endorsements? IMHO a FAA Glider or FAA Balloon Pilots license should be good enough. Why the powered flight requirement?

[mdickinson]

Can someone explain the logic behind the requirement for Glider and Balloon Wings to have a FAA pilots license with endorsements? IMHO a FAA Glider or FAA Balloon Pilots license should be good enough. Why the powered flight requirement?

CAP glider wings and balloon wings do not require an airplane rating. You just misunderstood the terminology.
What you are calling an "endorsement" is actually a rating.
What you are calling a "FAA Glider license" is actually an FAA private pilot certificate with glider rating.
What you are calling a "FAA Balloon Pilots license" is actually an FAA private pilot certificate with balloon rating.

Each FAA pilot certificate contains the category, class, and instrument ratings that have been earned by the pilot.

The certificate held by a typical CAP airplane pilot might read
PRIVATE PILOT - AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND
or
PRIVATE PILOT - AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND, INSTRUMENT-AIRPLANE

but for someone who has only flown gliders or balloons, it might say
PRIVATE PILOT - GLIDER
or
PRIVATE PILOT - LIGHTER THAN AIR FREE BALLOON.

A pilot who has flown with an air taxi (or who just enjoys earning additional ratings) and learned to fly gliders might have a certificate that reads
COMMERCIAL PILOT - AIRPLANE SINGLE AND MULTIENGINE LAND, INSTRUMENT-AIRPLANE, GLIDER


The above are ratings, not "endorsements." An endorsement is a log book signature from a flight instructor that makes the pilot qualified to fly some particular variant, such as (a) high performance aircraft, (b) complex aircraft (i.e. retractable gear), or (c) pressurized aircraft capable of operating at high altitudes. These do not appear on the pilot certificate, only in the log book.

The pilot certificate can also contain "type ratings," which are qualifications to fly specific makes and models of large and jet aircraft. See http://www.faasafety.gov/gslac/ALC/libview_normal.aspx?id=6577

...thread hijack complete.

[GroundHawg]

This makes much more sense. I'm not super familiar with the aviation side of CAP, and learn something new all the time! Thanks for the info!

[NIN]

BTW, to tie up the sub-discussion about skydiving/jump wings, the USPA Board of Directors just voted to raise the minimum age for jumping at any USPA affiliated DZ (most DZs in the US) to 18.

CAP cadets *could* still skydive, but they'd all have to be old enough to execute a contract / waiver on their own.

Back to air crew wings.

[Private Investigator]

What did the wings look like? What did the school/course consist of? What happened that caused it to close?

Attached is a monograph on the CAP parachutist.

Thanks for sharing. I must have overlooked it.   :clap:

[Panache]

Well, at least one good thing about the Aviator Shirt combination.  Wear of CAP aviation badges are optional, so you don't have to wear that terribad atrocious (AC) badge...thing... if you don't want to.

[Garibaldi]

I found what I think will be a good candidate for a hat to wear with the G/W.

http://lileks.com/institute/comicsins/comics/wallgren/11.html

If you have a minute or 3,000, peruse the rest of the site. It's a guaranteed  good time.

[Panache]

I found what I think will be a good candidate for a hat to wear with the G/W.

And if you angle the propeller right, it'll help you keep cool on those hot days!