CAP Fatigue Uniform Proposal

[Stonewall]

Yes, I started a similar poll almost 5 years ago.  Our CAP Talk Membership has had some turnover so why not start it all over again... 

Yes, I voted first and there's just a little bias involved.

By the way, although I would truly prefer to wear ABUs over anything else, in keeping with our mother service, I just detest different uniforms for people of weight or our fuzzy faced friends.  My proposal would allow EVERYONE to wear the same uniform while looking badass.

[Extremepredjudice]

Sir, I don't want to be a pickle.

[Nathan]

I have supported the KBU ever since I saw it five years ago.

[abdsp51]

It has potential.  I like the style but I think the color should be different.

[Eclipse]

My proposal would allow EVERYONE to wear the same uniform while looking badass.

So would the blue field uniform, and a lot of the membership already owns that, and the spec already exists.

I'd like to see the blue field uniform updated with a more modern design (velcro), slant pockets, etc., but that's where we should probably
land as a total organization.

[Stonewall]

Meh, I think the blue uniform looks dorky and even less military-esque than a solid OD uniform.

[vento]

My proposal would allow EVERYONE to wear the same uniform while looking badass.

So would the blue field uniform, and a lot of the membership already owns that, and the spec already exists.

I'd like to see the blue field uniform updated with a more modern design (velcro), slant pockets, etc., but that's where we should probably
land as a total organization.

^^  +1

[wuzafuzz]

My proposal would allow EVERYONE to wear the same uniform while looking badass.

So would the blue field uniform, and a lot of the membership already owns that, and the spec already exists.

I'd like to see the blue field uniform updated with a more modern design (velcro), slant pockets, etc., but that's where we should probably
land as a total organization.

^^  +1

^^ Me too.  Change the sew on insignia to match the BBDU fabric and I'd love it.

[SarDragon]

Sir, I don't want to be a pickle.

I was a pickle BITD, and it was OK. There's been no serious mental scarring, and I was proud to wear it. I much prefer it to the BDUs, which I have also worn.

[AngelWings]

I woul rather we just standardized the green bag. No need to buy expensive TACU uniforms and we still can velcro everything, and we'll all look the same. Extra, extra pockets, comfortable, aerospace people are happy they are in a flightsuit, military minded people are happy to be in a military uniform, ES people liking the fact they have a good amount of pockets, comfort over everything people enjoying the fit of it, the USAF happy no one is being confused for regular USAF guys (since I'll tell you many people have no clue what a flightsuit is). The price would be somewhat expensive, but could be negated through donations and fundraising, and'd be equal/close to the cost of a TACU set.
YMMV.

I love the look of it, but could we just go to a flight patch or green tapes? Why use blue? If we also did this uniform, we should go with roughout boots. Again, YMMV.

I'd also rather go with the ABU's, for the same reason you would.

[SarDragon]

Flight suits would be a HORRIBLE utility uniform. HORRIBLE.

The fabric is expensive, somewhat fragile (tears much more easily than ODU/BDU/ABU fabric), and mostly uncomfortable. I think other folks who have even more hours in Nomex than I have will agree.

[Eclipse]

Flight suits would be a HORRIBLE utility uniform. HORRIBLE.

The fabric is expensive, somewhat fragile (tears much more easily than ODU/BDU/ABU fabric), and mostly uncomfortable. I think other folks who have even more hours in Nomex than I have will agree.

Seriously - a new flight suit runs upwards of $185, looks like rolled poop most of the time, and would be incompatible for a lot of field use - Get into thick brush and there'd be nothing left of it.

If anything, the flight suit is the least useful of any of the uniforms in our proverbial closet - it's the most expensive, has the narrowest lane of wear,
needs to be washed separately and carefully, and offers little to nothing in the way of protection from the elements.

The price would be somewhat expensive, but could be negated through donations and fundraising, and'd be equal/close to the cost of a TACU set.

Donations for whom, from whom?  Cadets may occasionally and randomly benefit from donations, both monetary and in the form of used clothing, seniors rarely do.

[Garibaldi]

Sir, I don't want to be a pickle.

I was a pickle BITD, and it was OK. There's been no serious mental scarring, and I was proud to wear it. I much prefer it to the BDUs, which I have also worn.

I started in pickles and jungle fatigues.



That was 1982 or thereabouts.



1981. The rakishly handsome devil on the far left is me. We returned from an FTX and found the kittens rummaging around a trash can.

[SarDragon]

GREAT Robin Olds-ish 'stache! Totally out of reg, just like mine was back then.

[AngelWings]

Flight suits would be a HORRIBLE utility uniform. HORRIBLE.

The fabric is expensive, somewhat fragile (tears much more easily than ODU/BDU/ABU fabric), and mostly uncomfortable. I think other folks who have even more hours in Nomex than I have will agree.

Seriously - a new flight suit runs upwards of $185, looks like rolled poop most of the time, and would be incompatible for a lot of field use - Get into thick brush and there'd be nothing left of it.

If anything, the flight suit is the least useful of any of the uniforms in our proverbial closet - it's the most expensive, has the narrowest lane of wear,
needs to be washed separately and carefully, and offers little to nothing in the way of protection from the elements.

The price would be somewhat expensive, but could be negated through donations and fundraising, and'd be equal/close to the cost of a TACU set.

Donations for whom, from whom?  Cadets may occasionally and randomly benefit from donations, both monetary and in the form of used clothing, seniors rarely do.

Great points. It's been a long while since I've physicaly wore them for a halloween costume, but they are relatively light from what I remember and definately not durable. Maybe the green TACU is the better choice while keeping a green appearence.

[Bloodsky]

BDUs are better for training cadets and outdoor use, plus BDUs are plentiful. For those who actually do some flying they can go ahead and get themselves a flight suit.

[AlphaSigOU]

Sir, I don't want to be a pickle.

I was a pickle BITD, and it was OK. There's been no serious mental scarring, and I was proud to wear it. I much prefer it to the BDUs, which I have also worn.

I started in pickles and jungle fatigues.



That was 1982 or thereabouts.



1981. The rakishly handsome devil on the far left is me. We returned from an FTX and found the kittens rummaging around a trash can.

Yep... so did I. And the 'DEKALB' patch rocks! (I was a member of Dekalb County Cadet Squadron (09065, now SER-GA-065) 1977-79.)

[Garibaldi]

BDUs are better for training cadets and outdoor use, plus BDUs are plentiful. For those who actually do some flying they can go ahead and get themselves a flight suit.

Meh...flight suits were in vogue in 1986 after Top Gun. I only see a few on the flight crews here.

[cap235629]

BDUs are better for training cadets and outdoor use, plus BDUs are plentiful. For those who actually do some flying they can go ahead and get themselves a flight suit.

Meh...flight suits were in vogue in 1986 after Top Gun. I only see a few on the flight crews here.

usually they are only seen on new pilots until they fly their first CD flight in the Arkansas Summer....

[Garibaldi]

[/quote]

Yep... so did I. And the 'DEKALB' patch rocks! (I was a member of Dekalb County Cadet Squadron (09065, now SER-GA-065) 1977-79.)
[/quote]

I still have my DeKalb patch AND flash...you know, the one you had to do all sorts of stuff for like rappelling off Whiteside and navigating 3000 meters. There were a couple other requirements but I forgot them. All you had to do for a DeKalb patch was be a member in good standing for 6 months. I also have a couple GAWG patches, both subdued and colored. You know, the good one!

Long live PDK!

[Garibaldi]

BDUs are better for training cadets and outdoor use, plus BDUs are plentiful. For those who actually do some flying they can go ahead and get themselves a flight suit.

Meh...flight suits were in vogue in 1986 after Top Gun. I only see a few on the flight crews here.

usually they are only seen on new pilots until they fly their first CD flight in the Arkansas Summer....

I know I saw a couple of them at y'all's SAREX a couple weks ago...

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

My favoured choice would be already-available solid OD green BDU's with dark blue insignia.

Failing that, I see nothing wrong with BBDU's.

NOMEX bags really aren't good outside of flight ops.  I have a non-NOMEX dark blue one...just fine.

I rarely make absolute statements...but we are NOT getting ABU's.

[AlphaSigOU]

I still have my DeKalb patch AND flash...you know, the one you had to do all sorts of stuff for like rappelling off Whiteside and navigating 3000 meters. There were a couple other requirements but I forgot them. All you had to do for a DeKalb patch was be a member in good standing for 6 months. I also have a couple GAWG patches, both subdued and colored. You know, the good one!

Long live PDK!

Maj B. sent me the flash as well after I transferred to FL Wing, but I lost it in one of my many moves...

[Private Investigator]

My favoured choice would be already-available solid OD green BDU's with dark blue insignia.

I would second that proposal.   :clap:

[Danger]

Those are cool and all, but I favor sticking with BDUs. The only thing I would consider wanting to change is the color of the name / CAP tapes. But that's not even bad. I think everyone should try to accept BDUs, there isn't any need to have ABUs other than "to look cool."

[Stonewall]

Here are my thoughts on the subject:

1.  I hate 2 different uniforms (I'm not fat nor am I fuzzy), I just hate the segregation.

2.  Although I hate ABUs (I wear them in the Air Guard), I would rather wear them to be in line with the AF.

3.  I love BDUs, but I hate that I can't go to a military base and buy them.  If you order them, they are often NOT the military issue ones and I only have one set left.

4.  The [unofficial] proposed uniform I showed in my first post is an exact copy of the Army's ACUs except that it's solid OD green.  Yes, I really LOVE solid OD green.  I always thought that our blue name tapes fit perfectly on them.  With the velcro, you sew one set of patches/tapes/rank and you can just transfer them between fatigues.

5.  I personally hate the BBDUs.  I don't hate them for being blue (I wore similar set as a cop in the past), but I do not like them for CAP.  I feel like a Coastie and if I wanted to be a Coastie, I'd drive 3 miles down the street to the USCG Aux.  I am a HUGE supporter of the military aspect of CAP, including uniforms.  But what trumps that just a hair, is my hatred of 2 different uniforms.

Perfect world:  Everyone in CAP wearing BDUs

Even more perfect world:  Everyone in CAP wearing ABUs (although I hate ABUs)

[Angus]

Just my nikel's worth here I'd love to see us get the ABU at some point only because it is the field uniform of our parent organization.  But until that day arrives I wouldn't mind seeing a few minor changes to what we do have to make it look sharper.  It was mentioned previous in this thread but ye I think we should start to phase in a change in our tapes, I think a darker blue would be better for both the BBDU and the BDU.  The slanting of the pockets would be a high cost cause as of right now to my knowledge no one makes them like that so we'd have to go and find someone to produce them, so it wouldn't be cost effective for the company to produce them like that.   Also while I'm proud to be an American I also think we should nix the reverse flag, this is to be in keeping with our parent organization, the Air Force doesn't wear them anymore.   

[Stonewall]

The slanting of the pockets would be a high cost cause as of right now to my knowledge no one makes them like that so we'd have to go and find someone to produce them, so it wouldn't be cost effective for the company to produce them like that. 

Click here.

By the way, here are the results from the last poll.

[Eclipse]

^ You know you're setting up a few circular arguments of your own.

These would be in at least as "limited" supply as BDUs (which I don't agree are in "limited supply" for the majority of members who have never bought anything on a military base or from AAFES).

They would not be available from MCSS.

At least the "pain" of the expense would be borne by all.

[AngelWings]

The problem here is why do we need to get away from the ABU's and why exactly is everyone so sure they are going to say no? Someone please elaborate.

[Stonewall]

^ You know you're setting up a few circular arguments of your own.

These would be in at least as "limited" supply as BDUs (which I don't agree are in "limited supply" for the majority of members who have never bought anything on a military base or from AAFES).

They would not be available from MCSS.

At least the "pain" of the expense would be borne by all.

[joking]Bob!  One word:  "VELCRO"  It's kind of like how a mustache helps you in combat.  It just does! [/joking]

[Eclipse]

The problem here is why do we need to get away from the ABU's and why exactly is everyone so sure they are going to say no? Someone please elaborate.

1 - The USAF itself will not be wearing ABU's much longer, the writing's on the wall.

2 - Camo uniforms serve no purpose in ES.

3 - Adoption of the ABU's would most likely continue the artificial and unnecessary division of our membership, a division which literally
sacrifices mission execution for aesthetics.

4 - As a uniform itself, it isn't universally loved by a long shot, and was apparently designed by committee.

5 - see #1

[Eclipse]

[joking]Bob!  One word:  "VELCRO"  It's kind of like how a mustache helps you in combat.  It just does! [/joking]

Heh - in the right conditions, opening and closing the pockets might be more effective than a survival whistle!

"I can't see him, but I can hear him!"

[Garibaldi]

The problem here is why do we need to get away from the ABU's and why exactly is everyone so sure they are going to say no? Someone please elaborate.

1 - The USAF itself will not be wearing ABU's much longer, the writing's on the wall.

The only thing I've heard is that the Army has admitted making a $5B mistake with the ACU. Haven't heard the AF say anything like that.

2 - Camo uniforms serve no purpose in ES.

Yet we've had them since the 1990s.

3 - Adoption of the ABU's would most likely continue the artificial and unnecessary division of our membership, a division which literally
sacrifices mission execution for aesthetics.

Same argument as it was when the AF transitioned from pickle suits to BDUs.

4 - As a uniform itself, it isn't universally loved by a long shot, and was apparently designed by committee.

Agreed. It is heavy, the interior pockets serve no purpose, and WTF does the AF need with tiger stripes? BUT...but, IIRC, the test phase involved several designs tested by Airmen and officers for a long test period and this was the design they agreed worked best.

5 - see #1
No 

[Eclipse]

2 - Camo uniforms serve no purpose in ES.

Yet we've had them since the 1990s.

And the only reason we've had them is service affinity with the USAF.  That became 100% true when the regs were
changed to disallow wear of the BDU without grade for those out of grooming or weight.

The value of the affinity needs to be weighed against the loss of esprit-de-corps within CAP that is caused by having two field uniforms as well as
the unsuitability of a camo uniform in ES.

I would hazard that service affinity is of most value to the cadet program (it has value for the seniors, but not at the same level in this context).

Certainly a better situation then the current one would be having cadets in ABUs and seniors in BBDUs.  That fixes about 10 issues day one, and
would present a uniform, professional appearance externally, without unnecessarily and artificially dividing the seniors.

[Angus]

The slanting of the pockets would be a high cost cause as of right now to my knowledge no one makes them like that so we'd have to go and find someone to produce them, so it wouldn't be cost effective for the company to produce them like that. 

Click here.

By the way, here are the results from the last poll.

I meant I don't know of any in blue with slanted pockets and I have looked. 

[Eclipse]

I meant I don't know of any in blue with slanted pockets and I have looked.

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=14365.msg259480#msg259480

http://bdu.com/propper-tac-u-coats/lapd-navy

[Angus]

I meant I don't know of any in blue with slanted pockets and I have looked.

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=14365.msg259480#msg259480

http://bdu.com/propper-tac-u-coats/lapd-navy

Ok so I looked in the wrong places.   But I would like to say though I don't see a need for us to have slanted pockets. 

[Eclipse]

Ok so I looked in the wrong places.   But I would like to say though I don't see a need for us to have slanted pockets.

Slanted pockets are used to allow at least partial access under web gear straps.  If you're wearing a full vest, it's probably moot, although
I have found that they are a little easier to access when riding the bike.

I especially appreciate the shoulder pockets.

[abdsp51]

1 - The USAF itself will not be wearing ABU's much longer, the writing's on the wall.

Cite please from a valid source and not military.com or a AF Times snippet.

[Eclipse]

1 - The USAF itself will not be wearing ABU's much longer, the writing's on the wall.

Cite please from a valid source and not military.com or a AF Times snippet.

I just checked with the person who made this assertion - he's right.

[abdsp51]

1 - The USAF itself will not be wearing ABU's much longer, the writing's on the wall.

Cite please from a valid source and not military.com or a AF Times snippet.

I just checked with the person who made this assertion - he's right.

Again cite with a valid verifiable source.  Unless your source is SECAF, CSAF, or CMSAF then i doubt it is valid.

[Eclipse]

Again cite with a valid verifiable source.  Unless your source is SECAF, CSAF, or CMSAF then i doubt it is valid.

There's no source to cite, this is simple deduction and logic.  The writing is on the wall, it's just painted in
subtle colors.  You can choose to ignore it right up to the point where it's highlighted in a bright contrasting color.

What is certain, and verifiable, is that our military's field uniforms have been in a state of flux for a decade -
both on the whole and respective to each service, and between some in Congress who would like to see
a consolidated multi-service uniform, and the various tidbits about the Army's abandoning the ACU, the situation,
which a year ago looked like it was finally going to settle down, is only going to get less stable in the next 3-5 years.

So while there are a number of changes that should be made to our uniforms and regulations, the whole-scale adoption
of a new pattern and cut, which would have to include new rules for the hows and wheres of various insignia, would
not be a worth-while endeavor, since it is very likely that by the time we reached a new sundown, the USAF would be
into their new field uniform, be it a multi-service or something unique to the USAF.

The best thing CAP NHQ could do for its members would be to fix 39-1, continue to allow cadets to wear camo, and
move all seniors to the BBDU. Seniors with camo today could pass it down for units to issue, and we'd all be in the same
git-ups.  Then once things have stabilized (say 2015-2018), we consider something "new".

I'd put a 1-year sundown on senior camo, and a 3-year moratorium on significant changes.  That ends the issue and the debate
until further notice from NHQ.

[Garibaldi]

Again cite with a valid verifiable source.  Unless your source is SECAF, CSAF, or CMSAF then i doubt it is valid.

The best thing CAP NHQ could do for its members would be to fix 39-1, continue to allow cadets to wear camo, and
move all seniors to the BBDU. Seniors with camo today could pass it down for units to issue, and we'd all be in the same
git-ups.  Then once things have stabilized (say 2015-2018), we consider something "new".

Attachments and other options

Disagree. Although the ability to wear the AF style uniform is a PRIVILEGE, I don't want to wear the BBDU. If forced, then...I don't know. We seniors already have a distinctive uniform, the golf shirt combo, which is also worn by the AF.

Now, if they make us go back to the Smurf Suit, then I'll find another way to spend my time. BBDUs are OK for those of us who don't conform to weight or grooming standards, but for those of us who have chosen to stay with the AF style BDUs, I can say one of two things.

1. Don't tease us with ABUs. If authorization doesn't happen at this National Conference, I guess the issue will be dead in the water.
2. Leave CAP as the only organization that wears BDUs. I mean, every branch already has their own version of Multicam or Digicam or ACU or whatever. There was some sense of unity when every service wore BDUs. Now it's all hodgepodge. Four uniforms for four service branches. Why not a fifth for us?

Remember the time we were going to have to wear the silver braid on the sleeves of our dress blue jackets instead of epaulet sleeves? How long did that last? Less than a year? I guess my point is, if I have one, is that the uniform debate is going to go on, regardless of what we get to wear or don't get to wear. Eventually, we'll move on from BDUs, I suppose. Exactly what is anyone's guess, but FWIW I don't think ABUs are in our future either, but for different reasons.

[abdsp51]

Again cite with a valid verifiable source.  Unless your source is SECAF, CSAF, or CMSAF then i doubt it is valid.

There's no source to cite, this is simple deduction and logic.  The writing is on the wall, it's just painted in
subtle colors.  You can choose to ignore it right up to the point where it's highlighted in a bright contrasting color.

What is certain, and verifiable, is that our military's field uniforms have been in a state of flux for a decade -
both on the whole and respective to each service, and between some in Congress who would like to see
a consolidated multi-service uniform, and the various tidbits about the Army's abandoning the ACU, the situation,
which a year ago looked like it was finally going to settle down, is only going to get less stable in the next 3-5 years.

So while there are a number of changes that should be made to our uniforms and regulations, the whole-scale adoption
of a new pattern and cut, which would have to include new rules for the hows and wheres of various insignia, would
not be a worth-while endeavor, since it is very likely that by the time we reached a new sundown, the USAF would be
into their new field uniform, be it a multi-service or something unique to the USAF.

The best thing CAP NHQ could do for its members would be to fix 39-1, continue to allow cadets to wear camo, and
move all seniors to the BBDU. Seniors with camo today could pass it down for units to issue, and we'd all be in the same
git-ups.  Then once things have stabilized (say 2015-2018), we consider something "new".

I'd put a 1-year sundown on senior camo, and a 3-year moratorium on significant changes.  That ends the issue and the debate
until further notice from NHQ.

So basically you are speculating and assuming with nothing to substantiate it?  The ABU per AF leadership is going to be here for a while, and I do not see congress anytime soon cramming a standard uniform across the board.  They want to cut 500 billion out of defense spending alone in order to reduce the deficit.  There is no writing on the wall in subtle colors slowly becoming brighter and brighter. 

Fact CSAF has said all uniform changes are on hold indefinitely until other issues are ironed out and with the AF having to make cuts that hold may be a long one. 

[PHall]

I rarely make absolute statements...but we are NOT getting ABU's.

Rather bold statement. Is that something you can cite a source for or is that your personal opinion?
Because to eliminate confusion by the readers it really should be labeled as either a fact or opinion.

[AngelWings]

So basically you are speculating and assuming with nothing to substantiate it?  The ABU per AF leadership is going to be here for a while, and I do not see congress anytime soon cramming a standard uniform across the board.  They want to cut 500 billion out of defense spending alone in order to reduce the deficit.  There is no writing on the wall in subtle colors slowly becoming brighter and brighter. 

Fact CSAF has said all uniform changes are on hold indefinitely until other issues are ironed out and with the AF having to make cuts that hold may be a long one.

Exactly. The USAF is much more worried about operating than how they look right now.

[GroundHawg]

I love ODs.

I wish we would have never went to BDUs and just stayed with OD Jungles.

I hope we never go to ABUs. I have to wear them on drill weekends and that is quite enough thank you!

I hope and pray that someone at NHQ realizes that 39-1 is a SERIOUS PROBLEM. We need and want it fixed!

I should think vanguard would be on board with the switch as now they could market a uniform that every single member must wear, think of the profits off that.

[AngelWings]

How about we all just go to EOD bomb suits! Problem solved! It's rugged, is military, integrated cold weather gear, no need to shine boots, makes us look good, and we'll all be the same! Plus, SAFETY FIRST!  We could even use Green for those in H/W, and grey for those who are not. I think we've found the answer to all of our problems!

[Eclipse]

No place for a ranger tab.

[Extremepredjudice]

No place for a ranger tab.

And a smokey would fall off 

[Dad2-4]

IMHO, same field/utility/fatigue uniform for everyone, fat and fuzzy or slim and slick. Solid color. Military style, two piece, untucked, i.e. BDU/ABU style. Tapes' background color to match the uniform, white lettering. Boots, black and clean. Patches to a minimum: US flag, qualification badges/wings (background color to match uniform), unit patch.

[Eclipse]

IMHO, same field/utility/fatigue uniform for everyone, fat and fuzzy or slim and slick. Solid color. Military style, two piece, untucked, i.e. BDU/ABU style. Tapes' background color to match the uniform, white lettering. Boots, black and clean. Patches to a minimum: US flag, qualification badges/wings (background color to match uniform), unit patch.

Yes, please.

[Critical AOA]

Meh, I think the blue uniform looks dorky and even less military-esque than a solid OD uniform.

Yeah, so?  Why do we need to look military-esque? CIVIL Air Patrol.  CIVILIAN Auxiliary.  We are not military.

[SarDragon]

Oh, no! It's RM's twin brother!

[Garibaldi]

IMHO, same field/utility/fatigue uniform for everyone, fat and fuzzy or slim and slick. Solid color. Military style, two piece, untucked, i.e. BDU/ABU style. Tapes' background color to match the uniform, white lettering. Boots, black and clean. Patches to a minimum: US flag, qualification badges/wings (background color to match uniform), unit patch.

Yes, please.

OK OK...I'd do all-black. Best case, OG jungle fatigues with subdued patches. just like the old days...

[AngelWings]

From now on every time someone says CIVIL Air Patrol, a puppy is put through 5 years worth of safety briefings. Do not abuse the puppy this way.

[Майор Хаткевич]

From now on every time someone says CIVIL Air Patrol, a puppy is put through 5 years worth of safety briefings. Do not abuse the puppy this way.

Might as well add Cyborg with his Confederate colors. He may be against it, but I feel that he's posting it up so much that he's doing "their" work for them. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Might as well add Cyborg with his Confederate colors. He may be against it, but I feel that he's posting it up so much that he's doing "their" work for them. 

Just taking the mick out of the "grey is the only way" zealots.

I am firmly against any cute, cuddly little animals being put through five minutes of a safety briefing...and I was a safety officer for several years.

[Grumpy]

Sir, I don't want to be a pickle.

I was a pickle BITD, and it was OK. There's been no serious mental scarring, and I was proud to wear it. I much prefer it to the BDUs, which I have also worn.

I've noticed the funny twitch of the head you have.   

[Private Investigator]

IMHO, same field/utility/fatigue uniform for everyone, fat and fuzzy or slim and slick. Solid color. Military style, two piece, untucked, i.e. BDU/ABU style. Tapes' background color to match the uniform, white lettering. Boots, black and clean. Patches to a minimum: US flag, qualification badges/wings (background color to match uniform), unit patch.

OD jungle fatigues will do it. But why not blue background color? CAP should go back to the Uniform Manual of 1982 IMHO   

[Stonewall]

Meh, I think the blue uniform looks dorky and even less military-esque than a solid OD uniform.

Yeah, so?  Why do we need to look military-esque? CIVIL Air Patrol.  CIVILIAN Auxiliary.  We are not military.

No?  Then throw away our military customs and courtesies, CAPR 39-1, the fact that the Air Force is our parent organization, and more importantly, the fact that the people listed below were drawn to CAP by its military-esque atmosphere:

Colin G. - USMA grad; Captain, Army Special Forces
Megan M. - USMA grad, 1LT, Army Engineer Platoon Leader (Airborne, Sapper)
Greg N. - VA Tech Corps of Cadets, 1LT, Army Military Police (Airborne)
Tom C. - SSgt, USAF Pararescueman
Sam L. - WVU AFROTC, Captain, USAF Engineer
Wayne G. - CW3, US Army, Kiowa Warrior Pilot
Mike M. - MSgt, USAF, AC-130 Spectre Gunship
Devin S. - Captain, USAF, HH-60 CSAR Pilot
Robert H. - Sgt, USMC, V-22 Crew Chief
Josh B. - Army Tomb Guard, now working US Government
Jody V. - Law Enforcement/SWAT Commander
Leo L. - Public School Teacher
Stephen L. - Firefighter and Paramedic
Me - well, you'd be surprised

Just a list of names from the top of my head built over 25 years of young people who were drawn to CAP because of the military structure, heritage, and UNIFORMS.  "Military-esque?"  Yeah, it's important, like it or not.

[ZigZag911]

I actually support "uniformity" in uniforms...and I wore the 'pickle suit' myself for years, cadet and senior, and really liked it...never quite understood why CAP wanted camouflage uniforms for SAR work...anyway, as someone noted, many members already own BBDU, and they are readily available commercially...I think that ought to be where we head, at least for seniors -- BBDUs or flight suits for missions.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

I actually support "uniformity" in uniforms...and I wore the 'pickle suit' myself for years, cadet and senior, and really liked it...never quite understood why CAP wanted camouflage uniforms for SAR work...anyway, as someone noted, many members already own BBDU, and they are readily available commercially...I think that ought to be where we head, at least for seniors -- BBDUs or flight suits for missions.

"uniformity" starting with different BDU uniforms for cadets and seniors?

[lordmonar]

Personally.....my first choice would be ABUs for everyone....even the fat and fuzzies. 

If we can't do that.....ABUs for cadets....and a solid color od or gray for seniors.....point being.....everyone in the same class of membership is in the same unifrom.

[RiverAux]

Personally.....my first choice would be ABUs for everyone....even the fat and fuzzies. 

If we can't do that.....ABUs for cadets....and a solid color od or gray for seniors.....point being.....everyone in the same class of membership is in the same unifrom.

Why should cadets get to wear ABUs and not seniors? They can be fat and fuzzy too....

[AngelWings]

Personally.....my first choice would be ABUs for everyone....even the fat and fuzzies. 

If we can't do that.....ABUs for cadets....and a solid color od or gray for seniors.....point being.....everyone in the same class of membership is in the same unifrom.

Why should cadets get to wear ABUs and not seniors? They can be fat and fuzzy too....

They can be fat, but we have to be clean shaved and have haircuts. There are not too many completely fat cadets in the program.

EDIT: Not too many fat people in my neck of the woods atleast.

[Garibaldi]

Personally.....my first choice would be ABUs for everyone....even the fat and fuzzies. 

If we can't do that.....ABUs for cadets....and a solid color od or gray for seniors.....point being.....everyone in the same class of membership is in the same unifrom.

Why should cadets get to wear ABUs and not seniors? They can be fat and fuzzy too....

They can be fat, but we have to be clean shaved and have haircuts. There are not too many completely fat cadets in the program.

EDIT: Not too many fat people in my neck of the woods atleast.

Not too many cadets in my unit of 79 that NEED to shave!

[ZigZag911]

"uniformity" starting with different BDU uniforms for cadets and seniors?

True, but my view is let's get ALL seniors in the same uniform...which. speaking realistically, will mean some form of CAP distinctive.

Leave USAF style uniforms for the cadets.

Considering that our service academies cadets and midshipmen wear different uniforms from the members of their parent services, not such an odd idea (we'd just be reversing how they do it!)

[Ned]

Considering that our service academies cadets and midshipmen wear different uniforms from the members of their parent services, not such an odd idea (we'd just be reversing how they do it!)

May need to double check that.  Every time I visted the Zoo, the cadets were wearing blues, BDUs, or ABUs.  I suppose they may have dress uniforms that differ, but as near as I can tell they spend the overwhelming percentage of their time in the same uniforms as the rest of the AF.

[ZigZag911]

You're right, of course, Ned...the academies use their parent service's field uniforms for the cadets or midshipmen...it's the service and dress uniforms that are different -- which is what I'd ultimately like to see for CAP: cadets in USAF style across the board, seniors in CAP distinctive for all uses.

Probably not a popular view, but it's mine!

[jeders]

You're right, of course, Ned...the academies use their parent service's field uniforms for the cadets or midshipmen...it's the service and dress uniforms that are different.

The only place I've seen a difference is West Point. Everywhere else, cadets and officers wear the same uniform. The only difference is insignia.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

...which is what I'd ultimately like to see for CAP: cadets in USAF style across the board, seniors in CAP distinctive for all uses.

Probably not a popular view, but it's mine!

It's not mine, especially not with the current crop of of CAP-distinctive uniforms.  Yech.

Why would you take away the AF uniform from us?

[Woodsy]

BDUs are better for training cadets and outdoor use, plus BDUs are plentiful. For those who actually do some flying they can go ahead and get themselves a flight suit.

Meh...flight suits were in vogue in 1986 after Top Gun. I only see a few on the flight crews here.

usually they are only seen on new pilots until they fly their first CD flight in the Arkansas Summer....

Same here in Florida...  However, the wing is really moving toward a culture of wearing them.  They've recently been required for certain large scale exercises involving the military and other agencies.  There were people who did not go because they don't own one (and they ain't cheap!)  I've been lucky to have a few given to me by a member who works at an ANG base.  They did inventory not long ago and discarded several hundred which they gave to him to distribute to CAP members (most were new with tags, some very slightly used.)

As a PAO, I see the point of wearing them.  It helps us look the part and image goes a long ways in credibility.  That said, keep it practical.  Don't require it when it's too hot.  That's a safety issue.  At the recent exercise I mentioned above, we had a pilot pass out shortly after landing a 4 hour sortie.  He had to be transported to the hospital.  Dehydration and heat exhaustion, and looked like he'd been beat with a baseball bat where head met tarmac...  Flight suit sure didn't help him! 

[PHall]

BDUs are better for training cadets and outdoor use, plus BDUs are plentiful. For those who actually do some flying they can go ahead and get themselves a flight suit.

Meh...flight suits were in vogue in 1986 after Top Gun. I only see a few on the flight crews here.

usually they are only seen on new pilots until they fly their first CD flight in the Arkansas Summer....

Same here in Florida...  However, the wing is really moving toward a culture of wearing them.  They've recently been required for certain large scale exercises involving the military and other agencies.  There were people who did not go because they don't own one (and they ain't cheap!)  I've been lucky to have a few given to me by a member who works at an ANG base.  They did inventory not long ago and discarded several hundred which they gave to him to distribute to CAP members (most were new with tags, some very slightly used.)

As a PAO, I see the point of wearing them.  It helps us look the part and image goes a long ways in credibility.  That said, keep it practical.  Don't require it when it's too hot.  That's a safety issue.  At the recent exercise I mentioned above, we had a pilot pass out shortly after landing a 4 hour sortie.  He had to be transported to the hospital.  Dehydration and heat exhaustion, and looked like he'd been beat with a baseball bat where head met tarmac...  Flight suit sure didn't help him!

Flight suit doesn't fix stupid. If you're too dense to drink water to keep yourself hydrated, you probably shouldn't be flying an airplane either.

[Eclipse]

If you're too dense to drink water to keep yourself hydrated, you probably shouldn't be flying an airplane either.

Ah!  So that's what the pilots mean when they say "density altitude"!

[davedove]

...which is what I'd ultimately like to see for CAP: cadets in USAF style across the board, seniors in CAP distinctive for all uses.

Probably not a popular view, but it's mine!

It's not mine, especially not with the current crop of of CAP-distinctive uniforms.  Yech.

Why would you take away the AF uniform from us?

Yeah, the CAP distinctive need some work.

The AF took away their uniforms from a significant segment of our membership, so they are the ones who caused the non-uniformity.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Yeah, the CAP distinctive need some work.

The AF took away their uniforms from a significant segment of our membership, so they are the ones who caused the non-uniformity.

I have also met people in CAP who say we should not, and never should have, worn the AF uniform, period.

Their rationale?

"We're not in the Air Force and we have our own uniforms."

I wouldn't mind the CAP uniforms as bad if they just had a little bit of colour, and if they didn't only allow a blazer as a "dress uniform."

Granted, a lot of people like it because they can get the uniform parts for next to nothing and they aren't obligated to follow grooming, C&C and H/W regulations...but I just don't see the rationale for making "distinctiveness" always equal grey (there, I said it).

[ZigZag911]

The only place I've seen a difference is West Point. Everywhere else, cadets and officers wear the same uniform. The only difference is insignia.

The other academies do seem to mirror their parent service, except parade uniforms, which are very different.

[ZigZag911]

...which is what I'd ultimately like to see for CAP: cadets in USAF style across the board, seniors in CAP distinctive for all uses.

Probably not a popular view, but it's mine!

It's not mine, especially not with the current crop of of CAP-distinctive uniforms.  Yech.

Why would you take away the AF uniform from us?

Because it is the greatest single source of division between CAP and the Air Force...too many members (some quite senior in grade or position) who do not meet the standards wear the USAF style uniform anyway.

We don't need it to do our jobs, and giving it up voluntarily would go a long way to bridging the gap between us and the USAF in general...AF members would stop viewing us as a bunch of 'wannabes' besmirching their uniform; instances of CAP seniors trolling for salutes should virtually disappear.

Look, I started as a cadet a long time ago, loved the idea of wearing AF uniform, and really do understand the position of those that want to keep it...but I think it has become a luxury CAP cannot afford for its senior members.

[lordmonar]

All the CAP-USAF guys I have talked to don't really care about the weight issue.....as much as the "not reading the fracking manual" issue. 

[abdsp51]

And looking more corporate and potentially looking like the Keystone Cops is the way to go? 
And IMO I doubt it is the greatest issue dividing CAP and the AF. 

[lordmonar]

And looking more corporate and potentially looking like the Keystone Cops is the way to go? 
And IMO I doubt it is the greatest issue dividing CAP and the AF.

+1

I think the greatest issue divinding CAP and the AF is the self licking ice cream cone of governance, the fact that the wing/region/national staff spend so much time writing regulations and voting of trivia....in stead of setting policy.

But hopefuly that may change.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Because it is the greatest single source of division between CAP and the Air Force...too many members (some quite senior in grade or position) who do not meet the standards wear the USAF style uniform anyway.

I doubt it's the "greatest single source of division," and any division is most likely on the CAP side, not the AF side.  Ever since the days of the berry boards CAP upper echelons have walked on eggshells afraid that the slightest infraction will tick off the AF and we'd be back to the berry boards, or worse.

Most of the Air Force doesn't even know who we are.

We don't need it to do our jobs, and giving it up voluntarily would go a long way to bridging the gap between us and the USAF in general...AF members would stop viewing us as a bunch of 'wannabes' besmirching their uniform; instances of CAP seniors trolling for salutes should virtually disappear.

Now you sound like RM with the "wannabes" bit.

Would you tell that to the members of the Coast Guard Auxiliary, who proudly (and very largely without friction) wear their parent service's uniform?

Or to the State Defence Forces who have Air Wings, who have NO connection to the Air Force, except through their support of the ANG, yet wear the AF uniform with even less "distinctive" markings than those imposed on CAP?

Look, I started as a cadet a long time ago, loved the idea of wearing AF uniform, and really do understand the position of those that want to keep it...but I think it has become a luxury CAP cannot afford for its senior members.

Well, the day I have to give up the connection to our parent service and look like a mall cop-cum-Realtor (no offence to either of those) to be an effective CAP member is the day when I look for pastures new.  Why?  Because that will tell me that the organisation which I have given so much of my life to no longer trusts me with an historical link going way back to before I was even born.

[krnlpanick]

^^^^  :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[ColonelJack]

Hear hear, CyBorg!

:clap:

Jack

[abdsp51]

Honestly, the AF didn't take any uniform away from any member.  They simply set a standard for wear of the uniform and there is an alternate available for those who choose not to comply or those who can't for a medical reasons or something along those lines. 

Outside of the suspected trolling for salutes or some other asinine thing,  we are our own worst enemy in the realm of critics and public relations. 

Most of my leadership know what Civil Air Patrol is and most of them know I rejoined and spend my time there.  If we wanted to be corporate organization and corporate only what else would we have to offer outside of the Scouts, FFA, or FBLA? 

Many kids join for the military paramilitary aspect because it is the only program that offers it locally due to now JROTC nearby. 

As far as wannabes they will sort themselves out by what they do and do/n't know. 

[AngelWings]

We're free recruiting for the USAF when we wear CAP uniforms, not because we're trying to recruit people into the USAF but because we wear a USAF style uniform that many people think USAF, so I can rest easy knowing the USAF doesn't care if we wear it or not (as long as we don't look disgusting or try to troll). Plus, the one unanswered question is "Who in the USAF who has authority said we're not able to get ABU's?". Until someone gives us a definitive answer on the matter, everything saying we're not or we are getting ABU's is grapevine. We've managed to beat a dead horse back to life only to torture it slowly back to death.

Wannabes are no problem for us as long as they do not act up and falsly claim acheivements (like being in the military). What problem is it if LT Dufflebags wants to feel like he is in the Air Force (saying he gets his work done to/above standard)? We're entitled to some self credit and feeling like we're BA, because quite frankly we are. We should make an effort to distinguish a wannabe from a faker, with a wannabe being just that, a want to be, whereas a faker is actively trying to claim to be something they're not.

All of this "We should all go to this non-USAF uniform or that non-USAF uniform" is really... unique. What good is it to go to any uniform if we're going to go away from a military uniform when it comes towards utilities? I'd rather buy some desert tan 5.11 pants to go with my tan goretex bellevilles and put on a CAP polo and be done with it. That way, we'll eliminate any means of CAP members not being able to procure a utility uniform and I get to be extremely comfortable.

ANY uniform option we get is going to make SOMEONE upset. I've just come to accept the fact that whatever we get, I'll wear proudly and do my duties above the standard.

To add, we're winning a Guinness World Record page for two things: Worlds most fashion stressed organization and the record for the longest beating of a dead horse. Wait, another one: The worlds most brutal torture session to an animal, with that being the horse we've poked and kicked around for so long.

YMMV.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

To add, we're winning a Guinness World Record page for two things: Worlds most fashion stressed organization and the record for the longest beating of a dead horse. Wait, another one: The worlds most brutal torture session to an animal, with that being the horse we've poked and kicked around for so long.

That brutalised equine has been tortured since at least the imposition of the berry boards.  I came in right after that and the organisation was still kind of punch-drunk and there was some veiled (and open) resentment toward the Air Force that the whole lot of us got our collective butts kicked just because of the actions of a few bad actors.

I think that was the spark that started most of the uniform shenanigans.  The botched way the CSU was taken from us was another example of "thank you sir may I have another?"

I would like to see the Air Force tell SDF Air Wings that they have to do at least as much to look "distinctive" (whatever that word's supposed to mean) as we do.  The most I've seen is assortments of different nameplates, collar brass and buttons.

[AngelWings]

To add, we're winning a Guinness World Record page for two things: Worlds most fashion stressed organization and the record for the longest beating of a dead horse. Wait, another one: The worlds most brutal torture session to an animal, with that being the horse we've poked and kicked around for so long.

That brutalised equine has been tortured since at least the imposition of the berry boards.  I came in right after that and the organisation was still kind of punch-drunk and there was some veiled (and open) resentment toward the Air Force that the whole lot of us got our collective butts kicked just because of the actions of a few bad actors.

I think that was the spark that started most of the uniform shenanigans.  The botched way the CSU was taken from us was another example of "thank you sir may I have another?"

I would like to see the Air Force tell SDF Air Wings that they have to do at least as much to look "distinctive" (whatever that word's supposed to mean) as we do.  The most I've seen is assortments of different nameplates, collar brass and buttons.

To me it seems like PTSD from most of the members who cry for "distinctive" uniforms.

[Eclipse]

To me it seems like PTSD from most of the members who cry for "distinctive" uniforms.

"cry"?

Please, elaborate.  A significant number of our members, likely the majority (especially when you consider those members who own blues but not mirrors),
have no choice but the distinctive variants.  These members do the lion's share of the actual work in CAP, yet do not have a full catalog of uniforms which is both equal and fulfills the mission.

Until there is a service-dress equivalent for the majority of the membership, they will continue to be treated as, and look like, tennis judges.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I can live with the gray pants and the aviator shirt, I even like how they look if worn right, but someone, PLEASE get me a cover that is NOT a baseball cap.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I can live with the gray pants and the aviator shirt, I even like how they look if worn right, but someone, PLEASE get me a cover that is NOT a baseball cap.

You'll catch it for that...every time I've mentioned any kind of headdress someone starts in with how they don't like hats, period, and how goofy it would look for CAP members with a ponytail...though I have never, in all my years in CAP, actually seen a CAP member with a ponytail.  I used to have one occasionally when I'd tie my hair back to mow the lawn...but that was when I was 17 years old.

You will not get the "no-hat brigade" to agree on any kind of hat...I know, I've tried.

The most common reason given?  "I don't want to pay for another uniform item!"

Beret?  "Too French," "special ops only," "impossible to make look good," "offers no protection," "hated the [darn] thing when I had to wear it in the Army."

Flight/overseas/garrison cap?  "It'll make the Air Force mad,"  "flies off the head too easily," "looks stupid on those with long hair."

Visor (airline) type?  "It'll make people confuse us with cops."

When I've suggested it be optional?  "Defeats the whole purpose of being 'uniform'."

OHFUHCRYINOUTLOUD!!!!!!!

I have considered getting an old East German Air Force side cap, take the insignia off and wear it until someone senior in rank to me tells me not to.  After all, the bloody thing is grey, and very close in shade to our shoulder marks/nameplate, and they can be found on the cheap all over the Net.



I would have much more use for the aviator shirt uniform (I wear it occasionally, grudgingly) if it had a blue airline-type shirt, the same cut as we have now, made by Van Heusen:



However, that usually brings out the "it'll make the AF mad!" crowd.

And don't get me started on the blazer...I don't own one and won't own one.  Thankfully I can wear the AF dress blues when need be.

[Critical AOA]

I can live with the gray pants and the aviator shirt, I even like how they look if worn right, but someone, PLEASE get me a cover that is NOT a baseball cap.

While I do prefer the aviator shirt with gray pants over the blues, I mostly wear the blue golf shirt with gray pants.  In fact in the short 2.5 years since I rejoined CAP, I have only worn the aviator shirt twice.  All other times it has been the blue golf shirt or occasionally a flight suit.  I actually prefer a ball cap with the golf shirt, especially when flying.  With the white aviator shirt, I do not see the need for a hat at all though a fedora would work. 

[Garibaldi]

I can live with the gray pants and the aviator shirt, I even like how they look if worn right, but someone, PLEASE get me a cover that is NOT a baseball cap.

While I do prefer the aviator shirt with gray pants over the blues, I mostly wear the blue golf shirt with gray pants.  In fact in the short 2.5 years since I rejoined CAP, I have only worn the aviator shirt twice.  All other times it has been the blue golf shirt or occasionally a flight suit.  I actually prefer a ball cap with the golf shirt, especially when flying.  With the white aviator shirt, I do not see the need for a hat at all though a fedora would work. 

Our unit already has an Indy, thank you very much...but I carry the bullwhip 

[ZigZag911]

Just to clarify:

1) I am not 'against' the military uniform
2) the reality is that many, if not most, seniors do not meet grooming standards
3) the 'fashion confused' perspective would be eliminated if all seniors wore the same uniform, which could include some sort of hat (flight cap in appropriate color?)
4) CAP-USAF I've talked to seem very focused on weight as well as following uniform regs, but that may be a coincidence of who I've talked to
5) I admit I over-stated saying the uniform issue is the biggest division between CAP and Air Force...governance is undoubtedly a greater concern, one I too hope gets resolved.

[Critical AOA]

I can live with the gray pants and the aviator shirt, I even like how they look if worn right, but someone, PLEASE get me a cover that is NOT a baseball cap.

While I do prefer the aviator shirt with gray pants over the blues, I mostly wear the blue golf shirt with gray pants.  In fact in the short 2.5 years since I rejoined CAP, I have only worn the aviator shirt twice.  All other times it has been the blue golf shirt or occasionally a flight suit.  I actually prefer a ball cap with the golf shirt, especially when flying.  With the white aviator shirt, I do not see the need for a hat at all though a fedora would work. 

Our unit already has an Indy, thank you very much...but I carry the bullwhip 

Used no doubt to enforce 39-1.