Maybe CAP will one day wear Berets?

[Hawk200]

Oh, and the biggest collection of criminals on base is usually the Cop Squadron.
Don't believe me? Just check and see which squadron hands out the most Article 15's.

To be fair, a lot of those Article 15s would be LOCs or LORs in other units. I've known cops that got Article 15s for some pretty stupid stuff (knew people and how to ask to verify the story too, and just about every CAP unit on every base that I was at had at least one cop), because "Security Police are held to a higher standard!" Pure numbers don't tell the whole story.

To mention the other side, I've heard of a whole flight of cops getting canned for drug use. Jacked up, occasionally there are some big doozies, but that kind of thing is not indicative of all cops.

I think that overall when it comes to equivalent screwups, cop units are generally about equal. The Article 15 for everything makes it sound worse than it is. SP commanders are well known for handing them out when another commander would simply direct the supervisor to give an LOC or LOR.

I've seen many people end up as cooks or MWR when they flunked out of something else. A lot of it depends on what the management (chain of command) thinks is the easiest school at that particular training base. But, some people can get shifted over to a different field and do well there. It depends on the aptitude of the person. And I've seen plenty of people crosstrain out of the Security Police field as well.

[lordmonar]

I don't know......Like PHall said...in my 22 years in the service....if you wanted to find a criminal you went to the Cop's dorm.

And yes SF squadrons are imfamous for handing our form letter LOC's and Art 15's for what other squadrons would rate you a stern talking to.

But bottom line is that it is not that hard to get into the AFSC, it is not that hard to graduate from the Tech School.

This does not mean that they are all slugs or that they are not professional, dedicated and skilled.......it just means that they NOT elite as it is defined in the dictionary.

[Hawk200]

This does not mean that they are all slugs or that they are not professional, dedicated and skilled......

Exactly.

it just means that they NOT elite as it is defined in the dictionary.

I will agree with that statement, but that was not what I was specifically addressing.

[abdsp51]

As a former Defender, I highly disagree with that.  Show me one other AFSC outside the AFSOC AFSCs that are held to a higher standard.  Cops eat their own plain and simple.  Are there bad apples in the field you bet, but it's the same across the board in any branch or field. 

If I wanted to find criminals all I had to do was go into the dorms and the MXG and Med dorms were the biggest pay outs.  Popped alot aircrew as well and they had the biggest attitudes about anything and everything. 

[PHall]

As a former Defender, I highly disagree with that.  Show me one other AFSC outside the AFSOC AFSCs that are held to a higher standard.  Cops eat their own plain and simple.  Are there bad apples in the field you bet, but it's the same across the board in any branch or field. 

If I wanted to find criminals all I had to do was go into the dorms and the MXG and Med dorms were the biggest pay outs.  Popped alot aircrew as well and they had the biggest attitudes about anything and everything.

A1A1X0C = Flight Engineer (Performance Qualified)  Formal school takes 6 months. Takes another 9 to 12 months to become fully qualified.
Initial Qualification checkride takes 3 to 5 days (depending on how you're doing). Annual checkride is usually 2 days of flying plus a multiple hour oral exam.
Plus you get to be a pin cushion for the shot clinic and you get to play "you bet your career" every year with the Flight Surgeon when you get your physical.

And there are very few Article 15's, LOC's and LOR's in this career field.   Just sayin'

[abdsp51]

As a former Defender, I highly disagree with that.  Show me one other AFSC outside the AFSOC AFSCs that are held to a higher standard.  Cops eat their own plain and simple.  Are there bad apples in the field you bet, but it's the same across the board in any branch or field. 

If I wanted to find criminals all I had to do was go into the dorms and the MXG and Med dorms were the biggest pay outs.  Popped alot aircrew as well and they had the biggest attitudes about anything and everything.

A1A1X0C = Flight Engineer (Performance Qualified)  Formal school takes 6 months. Takes another 9 to 12 months to become fully qualified.
Initial Qualification checkride takes 3 to 5 days (depending on how you're doing). Annual checkride is usually 2 days of flying plus a multiple hour oral exam.
Plus you get to be a pin cushion for the shot clinic and you get to play "you bet your career" every year with the Flight Surgeon when you get your physical.

And there are very few Article 15's, LOC's and LOR's in this career field.   Just sayin'

PRP Missle personnel, bet your career on with anything.  To slam the SF for hold their members to a higher standard of discipline is uncalled for. 

[LGM30GMCC]

As a former Defender, I highly disagree with that.  Show me one other AFSC outside the AFSOC AFSCs that are held to a higher standard.  Cops eat their own plain and simple.  Are there bad apples in the field you bet, but it's the same across the board in any branch or field. 

If I wanted to find criminals all I had to do was go into the dorms and the MXG and Med dorms were the biggest pay outs.  Popped alot aircrew as well and they had the biggest attitudes about anything and everything.

13SXC - Missile Operations. Formal school takes 7 months, additional 2-3 months for initial qualification. 3 Academic monthly tests + simulator training. No notice evals possible 9/12 months. Minimum passing score on all tests 90%, Minimum generally acceptable 95%+, Expectation 100% on all exams. Held responsible for many mistakes made in their flight area by MX, or SF. Single mistake can cause them to be removed from crew duty with no recourse or appeal process.

Edit: I didn't bring up PRP because there are SF on PRP.

[lordmonar]

As a former Defender, I highly disagree with that.  Show me one other AFSC outside the AFSOC AFSCs that are held to a higher standard.  Cops eat their own plain and simple.  Are there bad apples in the field you bet, but it's the same across the board in any branch or field. 

If I wanted to find criminals all I had to do was go into the dorms and the MXG and Med dorms were the biggest pay outs.  Popped alot aircrew as well and they had the biggest attitudes about anything and everything.

3P0X1 only requires an ASVAB General Score of 33.
The only two AFSC with a lower lower General Score are Regional and Premier Bands.

As for being held to a higher standard?  I can agree with you on that at one level.  You certainly get burned harder for lower enfractions.  And I will agree that following SF the Med guys are probably next on my list of likely criminals.

Again....this is not a slam against Cops....most of them are hard working, dedicated professionals....as are most everyone in the USAF.  And everyone thinks aircrew are a bunch of prima donnas......including the aircrew!

My point is.....that USAF Cops are not really elite.  But they all sport berets.  Even those cops doing secuirty management duties in non SF squadrons wear them.  So the argument that berets=elite is a non-starter in both the USAF and the Army.

[abdsp51]

In my 12 years as a cop the bad apples amongst were few and far in between.  Did it happen yes, but as with everything they are rampant depending on location. 

[SPD6696]

"Dude, if you can get in the Air Force, you can be a cop.  So lose the 'tude.

Oh, and the biggest collection of criminals on base is usually the Cop Squadron.
Don't believe me? Just check and see which squadron hands out the most Article 15's.

And before you get all indignant, I am a Retired MSgt with 31-1/2 years of service. So I might know a little bit of which I speak."



One, my name is not "dude".  Two, I don't have a "tude".  Three, you make a general statement, unsupported by facts, denigrating an entire career field.  You will note that I made no denigrating remarks about any other career fields that I know for a fact have a large amount of miscreants.  I won't disrespect an entire career field, or those hard working, honorable troops in it, by making a biased and ignorant statement such as yours.

I don't have 31 years, I retired with 23, and with service in 3 branches.  I also WAS in Security Forces (I don't know if you were, or not).  So, like you claim, I too know a little of which I speak.

lordmonar, I agree, Security Forces certainly isn't "elite".  A hat does not make one "elite".  I would argue that professionalism, training, and conduct make one "elite".  And, by that standard, I have known many servicemembers that are not cool guys that I would consider "elite".  From what I have seen of my son's CAP squadron, and the exemplary manner in which they run the show, there are many there that are "elite".   

 
To everyone else, I apologize that this turned into a weenie measuring contest.  It's unprofessional, but, sometimes, corrections need to be made.  I don't post much, I tend to read more here.  When I do post, I try to contribute positively.

[NCRblues]

IMVHO...

I think Security Forces (and many other AFSC's) are environment behavior based.

Meaning, if a cop gets stationed at, lets say, Minot or Whiteman or one of the other major PRP bases, they are held to a much higher standard than say the "party" (training) bases like Lackland or Keesler.

[lordmonar]

IMVHO...

I think Security Forces (and many other AFSC's) are environment behavior based.

Meaning, if a cop gets stationed at, lets say, Minot or Whiteman or one of the other major PRP bases, they are held to a much higher standard than say the "party" (training) bases like Lackland or Keesler.

Even at the party bases.....they still hammer them pretty hard.

In the Comm squadron....if you are 5 minutes late in the AM....it's "did you bring the donuts" and "try to be here on time tommorrow".  In the SF squadron....if you are late for guard mount.....they have a preprinted LOC you sign.  Get enough of them and then you get an LOR. 

The nature of the job is that they just don't tolerate a lot of what other squadrons do on a daily basis.

On the other hand.....they also don't hold those things against you as much as they do in other AFSC.  Get an Art 15 as a Comm guy and you probably will never see SMSgt.   But I know lots of SF CMSgts who have 1,2, even three Art 15's in their jacket.  Because they know how easy it is get one in their job.

[MSG Mac]

Has this gone from a discussion on berets to a beat down on SF's, MP's and what is the best AFSC/MOS/NEC? If so, it's time to close. 

[Extremepredjudice]

Agreed, sir.


Back on topic: We may get berets. We may also get flying ponies.

If we do get berets, what color would they be?
Or different colors for positions?
Red=ES
green=SM
Blue=Cadet
Red w/racing stripes=pilots
Would we wear them with BDUs or blues?

[lordmonar]

We already have berets.  See 39-1

If you are talking about everybody in CAP wearing them.....I say NO!

For special units or special activities or special awards maybe....but not for everyone.

[titanII]

If we do get berets, what color would they be?
Or different colors for positions?
Red=ES
green=SM
Blue=Cadet
Red w/racing stripes=pilots

CAP would have to get its own special shade for the entire organization, something like "burnt sienna" "mountain meadow" or one of the other weird Crayola color names 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

CAP would have to get its own special shade for the entire organization, something like "burnt sienna" "mountain meadow" or one of the other weird Crayola color names 

At least it couldn't be GREY, since that's already taken (AF Combat Weather)!

I think a beret could be MUCH more likely with the G/W than the AF type uniform.

1. The AF has units who wear berets, discussed here at great length, and would be unlikely to allow CAP that "privilege."
2. Some dim bulb would invoke the "low-light-at-a-distance" canard.
3. It wouldn't take AF approval to make such a change to a CAP-only uniform.
4. The AF could probably care less about such a change, since it doesn't affect their uniform, as long as we don't use one of their colours (which is why I suggested RAF blue-grey).
5. Again, to stress this, it would be optional.  Say it again, with feeling: O-P-T-I-O-N-A-L!

It could most likely be worn now with the G/W, anyway.  As long as insignia is off it, it's civilian headgear.  If it were approved for "official" use, it could have the CAP MAJCOM-type shield.

On other matters...my MTI had been SP (what they were called back in the day) and how he got to be an MTI I will never know.  All I really learnt from him is various permutations of the F-bomb...he couldn't construct a sentence without it.

I didn't know that SF squadrons were so free with LOC's and Art. 15's...back in the late '50s my dad got an Art. 15 (Army) and it kept him from getting E-5 (Specialist 5)!

Bottom line?  The beret is an impractical, uncomfortable hat.  It is widespread throughout the rest of the world, including some of those rubber boot wearing "armies" in Africa, as well as any number of other latrine hole countries. 

Really?  Does that make the British Army/Royal Marines, German Bundeswehr, Canadian Army, French Army, Italian Army or even the Russian SPETZNAZ "latrine hole forces?"

[titanII]

Bottom line?  The beret is an impractical, uncomfortable hat.  It is widespread throughout the rest of the world, including some of those rubber boot wearing "armies" in Africa, as well as any number of other latrine hole countries. 

Really?  Does that make the British Army/Royal Marines, German Bundeswehr, Canadian Army, French Army, Italian Army or even the Russian SPETZNAZ "latrine hole forces?"

I don't think that he was implying that only "latrine hole forces" wear  berets, Cyborg. I think he was just pointing out the fact that the beret is worn by the full spectrum of forces around the world, from the most elite Green Beret or Spetsnaz, to the US or British Army soldier, right down to the "latrine-hole forces".

[Extremepredjudice]

We already have berets.  See 39-1

If you are talking about everybody in CAP wearing them.....I say NO!

For special units or special activities or special awards maybe....but not for everyone.

I know we do. NBB.

I was just coming up with on-topic fodder.

[Flying Pig]

I was a PRP Marine Security Forces NCO.....so screw all you nasty air-swine and your french hat!   Suuuuuuuueeeeeeeeeeyyyy!