The AF may have too many awards also

[RiverAux]

I suppose its my fault for initiating the discussion with a link to a story about AF awards issues, but we're a little off track. 

It seems like there is good support for consolidating the PD ribbons at the cadet and senior levels and perhaps upping the requirements for the Red Service ribbon.

Any other suggestions for consolidation or elimination of CAP ribbons?

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I remember a C-130 nav one time telling me that a group of junior Canadian Air Force officers at Red Flag being given 3 or 4 fake ribbons by their commander so that they wouldn't look so out of place compared to their American counterparts.

There's a fake ribbon chart out on the internet somewhere showing those "ribbons"...it's similar to the fake USAF one I posted.

Their version of the Good Conduct Medal, the Canadian Forces Decoration, is only awarded after 12 years' honourable service, or as one put it, "12 years of undetected crime."

On a more serious note, and this has also been discussed before, is the fact that the Air Force has civilian awards and medals...is there any reason that some of the CAP awards couldn't be replaced/consolidated by these?

Civilian Air Medal (a nod to our history):


AF Exceptional Civilian Service Award (consolidate CAP ESA/DSA/MSA)


AF Civilian Award For Valor (consolidate CAP Silver/Bronze Medals for Valor)


AF Exemplary Civilian Service Award (consolidate CAP Commander's Commendation/Achievement Award):


Consolidate Yeager/Crossfield awards; when the Crossfield is earned, the Yeager is no longer worn.

Just a thought.

[flyboy53]

I suppose its my fault for initiating the discussion with a link to a story about AF awards issues, but we're a little off track. 

It seems like there is good support for consolidating the PD ribbons at the cadet and senior levels and perhaps upping the requirements for the Red Service ribbon.

Any other suggestions for consolidation or elimination of CAP ribbons?

I've asked many times that we consider consolidating the PD awards into one with devices or just wearing the highest one. I believe the same for the cadet milestone awards, especially since when I joined as a cadet the CAP was just then converting from a system that only had four cadet achievement awards. The number of awards, combined with the variety of devices, gets confusing and complicated after a while.

I also believe that the Yeager and Crossfield awards could be consolidated into one with devices, especially since a Brewer Award recipient only gets a certificate.

Could some of the activity and operational ribbons be consolidated? After WW II, there were three our four ribbons that replaced the sleve patches worn to show active service. Then, over the years, those three or four ribbons were reduced to one.

Also, I really think the idea of the AF civilian awards has a lot of merit if we could get permission to implement something like that.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I seriously hope that is a joke wanting to consolidate the SMOV and BMOV. Just ask the army to consolidate the Silver and Bronze medals.

[MIKE]

IIRC, CAPR 39-3 used to say that members had the option of only wearing the highest professional development ribbon earned in lieu of the others to cut the rack down some.

I seriously hope that is a joke wanting to consolidate the SMOV and BMOV. Just ask the army to consolidate the Silver and Bronze medals.

Put it in appropriate prospective.  There are not two levels of the Soldiers/Airmans Medal.

[ol'fido]

My choice for consolidation or elimination is the Orientation Pilot Ribbon and the Counter Narcotics Ribbon. How about replacing these with a CAP version of the Air Medal? I would also like to consolidate the PD ribbons into one ribbon.

[lordmonar]

The Army has four service specific unit citations and they are seldom handed out.

On the AF Recognition Ribbon I saw a ton of folks at that event i went to with one.

You guys can defend all the flare until your blue in the face. I challenge you to start looking at members of the AF and compare them to someone from one of the other services with similar time in grade. I have yet to ever see it where the AF guys had less awards. Furthermore it has always been more.

I have.

I will say that the USAF is a little more open with the "discretionary decorations" (AFAM, AFCM, MSM) then the other services.  But when you talk about "too many ribbons"....that is just not really true.

Everyone in uniform today gets the NDSM......that is just the fact.
Everyone who shots their duty weapon well gets some sort of uniform recognition.
Everyone who's unit does outstanding work gets a unit citation (they just may wear it in a different place....and the Army let's you wear awards earned before you were even born!)
Everyone who support GWOT is eligible for the GWOT-S medal.....the Air Force just defines "support" differently.
Everyone who deploys to AOR get the medals for that AOR.

The USAF has some strange medals.....the Combat Readness Medal for instance.....but that is seldom awarded anymore.

[lordmonar]

Why not just eliminate the Cross Field award.  It is just the master level for AE.....we already have the training ribbon for that.

[jimmydeanno]

I can't say that there are too many or too little.  It seems that the group against the "large number" of ribbons are pointing to the exceptions rather than the norm.  "Look at how many ribbons the Air Force Chief of Staff has!" 

The same is true in CAP, those who do a lot of stuff have a lot of ribbons and awards.  Those who don't, don't.  I don't think that the average CAP member has more than 6-10.  I've 20+ with multiple awards of most, but I also have 15 years in the program, work on national level projects, instruct at national level courses, as well as participate at the local and wing levels.

I think it may be possible that there is some of the "If I don't know that person, then they can't have possibly done anything to earn all that."  CAP has a lot of background players who do a significant amount of stuff that people may or may not ever see, but it is still vitally important to our organizations success.  Many times, those people get accused of being members of GOB clubs, etc when people see their chest candy - but they're just uninformed.

I don't care if cadets have 30 ribbons, most will only earn 10-15 anyway.

I don't care if seniors have 30 ribbons, most will only earn 6-10 anyway.

[RiverAux]

I guess that we probably should note that the Find ribbon and Air SAR ribbon, which have almost been gimme awards for anyone involved in ES are probably going to start to become rarer with the decline in ELT missions.  There were some places in CAP were you probably could have earned the Air SAR ribbon in a few months if you so desired and a Find ribbon almost as soon as you started training.  That won't be the case anymore.  The rest of CAP is going to start to look like those Wing that rarely had ELT missions.

The Cadet O-ride ribbon isn't a gimme award and I'm fine with giving it to anyone that has done 50 o-rides.  That is a fair amount of dedication.   

[GroundHawg]

My Grandfather had 6 ribbons/medals after 4 years in combat.
My Father had 9 after 4 tours in combat, 3 in VN and the 1 in the DR.
After 14 years in the military with service in 3 branches I have 29 ribbons, and that doesnt include the state awards, and 3 foreign that arent authorized for wear.
My brother has around 20 after 14 years active duty USAF and has never left the continental US...
In 6 years with CAP I have 17, with 7 removed after moving to SM from Cadet.
Thats just ribbons/medals, I wont go into badges and other bling.


The awards system across the board is broken.

I would get rid of the following CAP ribbons
Cadet Orientation Pilot Ribbon
Veterans of Foreign Wars Award
Air Force Association Award to Unit Cadet of the Year
Air Force Sergeants Association Award to Unit Cadet NCO of the Year Ribbon
Veterans of Foreign Wars Officer Award
National Commander's Unit Citation Award (make a device for the Unit Citation to indicate it was a Nat Comm Unit Citation)
and merge National Color Guard Competition Ribbon and National Cadet Competition Ribbon into one with different devices to indicate either CG or NCC
I would also allow cadets to wear their top "achievment" ribbon instead of wearing all of them.

[Major Carrales]

I wouldn't support getting rid of AFA and VFW awards for cadets.  These are awards from credible organizations to cadets that demonstrate achievement recognized by these groups.  They are limited in their awarding (one cadet per year) and cause no trouble I can detect.   

[PHall]

IIRC, CAPR 39-3 used to say that members had the option of only wearing the highest professional development ribbon earned in lieu of the others to cut the rack down some.

Actually it's in the 50-17. Kinda stupid place to put it, but that's where it is.

[Ed Bos]

I'm curious to know why there's any interest in reducing the opportunity for people to wear ribbons.

It's a resume, and the variety of different ribbons allows for specificity in the types of recognition (which in CAP, IMHO = "paycheck"), including the different levels (BMV vs. SMV, or Achievement Award vs. CCM).

@Mike the authorization for removing ribbons is in the 39-3, para 3a:

3. Decorations, Ribbons, and Awards That May Be Worn on the CAP Uniform.
a. The CAP decorations, ribbons, and badges described herein and wartime service ribbons awarded during the period February 1942-July 1945 may be worn on the CAP uniform in accordance with CAPM 39-1, Civil Air Patrol Uniform Manual. If cadet ribbons are worn by senior members, only the highest cadet program ribbon earned will be worn. Additionally, senior members needing to minimize the number of ribbons worn, may also elect to wear only the highest senior training ribbon earned. Other CAP decorations, ribbons, and badges previously authorized, but not described in this regulation will not be worn.

Bottom line here, I don't believe the problem is too many awards. I think people just ought to rethink what these awards indicate.

@lordMonar: I'm not clear what your definition of the word "seldom" is, but the Combat Readiness Medal is still awarded. I have one, as does almost every member of my Squadron. Just so's ya know.

[N Harmon]

I'm curious to know why there's any interest in reducing the opportunity for people to wear ribbons.

There is a great deal of confusion among some (but not all) CAP members that self-deprecation and professionalism are same thing. I never understood it, but it does show up quite a bit here.

That said, it does occur to me that at some point having too many awards detracts from their purpose as a service "resume". Nice comparison, by the way.  Just as a resume can be too long, so can a ribbon rack.  The ability for people to recognize the accomplishments being displayed as ribbons is, I think, inversely proportional to the total number of awards that are possible.

Essentially, what is the purpose of having a huge stack if most people will only recognize what a handful of them mean? If it is to give the impression of "highly decorated", then what happens when everybody is "highly decorated"?

[flyboy53]

AGREED

The issue, however, isn't that there are too many ribbons. It becomes an issue of what the member chooses to wear. I sometimes wonder if these ribbon or decoration strings develop a life of their own out of jealousy or personal envy.

That's why I don't take a lot of credence in the pictures of foreign or American military officers that were previously posted because I'm not sure if what they're wearing is a personal choice and not representative of what they are authorized to wear. Afterall, I've seen lots of photos of Navy senior leadership only wearing one row of ribbons on their working tans and I know that General Eisenhower was famous for that.

When I joined CAP, one of the officers I always looked up to and admired was a former PA Wing Group 50 Commander named Maj. Don Beatty. By the time I had the honor of knowing him, Major Beatty had done it all. In the 1920s he served in a Civilian Military Training Program, became an aviation cadet and officer, served as an officer in the Pennsylvania National Guard, commanded a PA State Guard Company, flew CAP WWII Forest Patrol and missing aircraft missions and still found time to be an engineer for Pennelec, be a proficient pilot and raise a family. In spite of all of that, he only ever wore his pilot wings and one row of ribbons and none of them were CAP ribbons. He didn't need all the bling to prove who he was or what he did.

There has always been a standard rule among AF NCOs that what one wore on his uniform traditionally only representated about a third of what he was actually entitled to because of his service. Obviously, the same rule applies to CAP. Major Beatty was one of four CAP Charter Members still serving then in Northwestern PA. None of them ever wore a stack of ribbons and one of them was a friend of Gill Robb Wilson.

The Air Force and the CAP created all of those ribbons to recognize those services/duties and to serve as an incentive for others. Does that mean that there are too many ribbons, perhaps, but you don't have to wear them all.

And by the way, in response to some of the previous posts: the Air Force re-institued the Good Conduct Medal. As for the Combat Readiness Medal, you do realize that the individuals who wear that medal have mantained themselves in a contant state of war readiness longer than many military deployments. You had to serve during that era to understand and appreciate that.

[James Shaw]

What difference does it make to someone else how many ribbons another person wears?  This type of thread leads absolutely nowhere. Delete this, combine these, why?

The direction for the proper wear is allready known, if you have 15 in the rack and only wear the top three, what do you think the chances are of someone complaining that you are not wearing all of your ribbons.

Personally I wear my ribbons by the regs and that is it. I wear them on the jacket and mess dress when I wear that. I stick to the regs and assume others will as well.

I don't wear my AD or Res stuff at all. I did when I came in and didnt feel "right" because I am not in the Navy or National Guard (I know I couldnt wear the Res anyhow).

I had 9 when I left the Navy, along with my Aircrew Wings, AF Communications for Joint Operations. I had 3 from the National Guard. I dont wear them because it does not represent my CAP service.

I dont demean or negate anyones service if they choose to wear their CIB or anything else the regs allow them to wear, great for them. It is a personal choice and opinion for me. But I dont think it is right for someone else to try and tell me what I should and should not wear simply because they think we "have to much".

If I see a cadet with 15 or 20 ribbons on their rack, I think "holy ribbon Batman" that is one serious cadet and say a silent "good for them".

My CAP service is recognized with my CAP ribbon rack just like thousands of others.

Wear your CAP stuff proudly ALL of it, you earned it! Wheres the harm in that?

[RiverAux]

In general, I agree with your point of view, but in practice an organization can go to far in the use of awards.  There is a point of diminishing returns for awards and at some point that at some point makes them so common as to be pointless. 

The general consensus doesn't seem to be that we have greatly exceeded that point but that there could be some nibbling around the edges so as to avoid getting there. 

[ColonelJack]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the fact that where the ribbon is in your stack is indicative of what value it really has.  The farther down, of course, the more "common" the award.  (Not always, of course ... but you know what I mean.)

Also, do remember that in CAP, awards and rank equal payday.  If an individual does not wish to be recognized for his/her accomplishments, that's fine.  I admire such people for their humility, and wish I could be more like them.  But I don't agree that reducing or consolidating that recognition is a good idea across the board.

After all, what does it matter to me how many ribbons you wear?  And why should it matter to you how many I wear?  I earned mine, and I assume that you earned yours.  What's the problem, anyway?

Jack

[Hawk200]

I'm curious to know why there's any interest in reducing the opportunity for people to wear ribbons.

Because excess can become meaningless. In the case of PD ribbons, why should I have to buy another ribbon, then another ribbon, then another ribbon? Every so often, you also have to replace the older ribbons because they get dirty or start fraying from moving to another rack. I may be picky on the condition of my ribbons, but I've seen way to many ribbons that are in crappy condition for it not to be a problem. People need to pay attention to those little things too.

It's a resume, and the variety of different ribbons allows for specificity in the types of recognition (which in CAP, IMHO = "paycheck"), including the different levels (BMV vs. SMV, or Achievement Award vs. CCM).

Different awards are one thing, it's another thing entirely to show progression in the same area with different ribbons for it. I think the military has it right, a ribbon for professional courses then attachments for that ribbon when you complete additionals.

I'm not alone in thinking that different ribbons for Levels 1 through 5 are a bit overkill, and seem to be separate awards for the sake of building a rack.

If you could do something with a variation of one step, instead having five different ones, wouldn't you do it more efficient manner? Same thing applies when it comes to those ribbons. I like the idea above of putting numerals on a PD ribbon. Little bit of KISS principle there: instead of counting clusters, stars, triangles or devices; just read the number.

I would also eliminate some CAP devices for some of the ribbons as well. Two bronze oak leaf clusters would say the same thing as two bronze triangles, but be far more readily available. Being able to pick it up from any military clothing, or even order online without having to wait a week or two for it to ship would be very nice.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the fact that where the ribbon is in your stack is indicative of what value it really has.  The farther down, of course, the more "common" the award.  (Not always, of course ... but you know what I mean.)

I get your meaning, might not be a bad idea. Higher distinctions should be higher on the rack.