The AF may have too many awards also

[manfredvonrichthofen]

For cadets it would also include meeting the minimum number of achievements for the term of service.

When the program is adhered to properly a cadet's reward for proper attendance and activity is being allowed to remain a member and progression.

For both senior members and cadets it is also attending meetings and other activities frequently. And consistently training in their specialty fields.

Seriously.  In what esteem is the CCM held?

We don't reward people for meeting the barest expectations of membership.  Active members get plenty of bling.  With this attitude we might as well
send ribbons in the mail with renewal cards.

I never said anything about the CCM.
I was talking about the RSR.

As I said earlier, there is nothing that should be changed at all regarding any Commendation Medals.

[Flying Pig]

I've seen E3 A1C walk out of lackland and get on the bus to tech school wearing 5.
Expert Marksman, AFTR, Honor Grad, GWOT-S, NDS

Yup, my little bro was that guy.  I did 8 years in the grunts and got out with 6!

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

It is almost a running joke among some of our allies that we have so many awards.

First, General Curtis LeMay, with a stupendous ribbon rack of largely wartime ribbons, one of which is the British Distinguished Flying Cross:



Modern example, former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, General Richard Myers (ret):



Now, I don't think any of us would begrudge these esteemed Generals their chest candy.

But when you look at equivalent-ranked officers of our allies...

Generalleutnant Peter Schelzig, C-in-C, Luftwaffe:



Vice Admiral Bruce Donaldson, Vice-Chief of the Defence Staff, Canada:



Lieutenant-General R.R. Jones, New Zealand Chief of Defence Force:



...you get the idea.

For all of his (perceived) uniform sins, General Tony McPeak may have been on to something in just wearing his top three:



And kind of a humorous jab at the "fog-a-mirror" ribbons...



About the only time I wear my ribbons is on the service coat.

[lordmonar]

cool.

Comparing the us forces with other countries is not really fair.....because I can find 2-3 other countries that give out even more ribbons and medals then we do.

What does that prove?  That we are not Germany or Canada or any other country.

[flyboy53]

"The National Defense Service Medal is what Bugg, the JAG, calls "rock-solid proof that I was in the military and breathing on or after September 11, 2001."

I spit Dr. Pepper all over my screen....

I never did understand that ribbon...i wear it, but...not sure why...

So don't choke on it. I believe he actually mis-spoke about the National Defense Service Medal. The NDSM was created by Gen. Dwight Eisenhower as a sort of over-all campaign medal. It's the only federal medal that has been re-issued for various states of war since Korea. I would hope the good JAG is talking about the AF Training Ribbon. I used to also joke about the BMT Honor Grad Ribbon until I realized that in a career spanning two decades, I only saw that ribbon 10 times.

That said, I was on active duty when things like the Training Ribbon and overseas service ribbons were created. Even though I always joked about the AF Training Ribbon as the "Battle of Lackland Ribbon," its purpose originally was designed to recognize those individuals who voluntarily enlisted during the All-Volunteer Forces Concept -- no draft. The overseas ribbons were designed to recognize service during the end-era of the Cold War, especially for those people serving isolated hardship tours in remote locations. During the first Gulf War, not everyone deployed overseas earned campaign medals. There were quite a few who only earned an overseas ribbon for their service.

As far as overload of ribbons, veterans of the Korean War can have as many as two rows of ribbons now, depending on where they served.

So I don't thing there's an overload, I think the criteria needs to be re-evaluated. You'd get one, not the others.

As far as CAP ribbons, same old song and dance. How about limiting PD ribbons to the highest earned or the milestone ribbons for cadets. That's what I'd like to see changed....but then, oh no, Vanguard wouldn't be raking in the big bucks.....

[jeders]

It is almost a running joke among some of our allies that we have so many awards.

I remember a C-130 nav one time telling me that a group of junior Canadian Air Force officers at Red Flag being given 3 or 4 fake ribbons by their commander so that they wouldn't look so out of place compared to their American counterparts.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I have to say, I have seen some pretty outrageous uniforms. Some with no ribbons at all, every award was a little round plaque that went all the way from the shoulder down to the bottom of the jacket almost to the knees. The most outrageous thing I have seen, was ribbons on BDUs. Now, you want to complain about awards? How about a buddy of mine who took a bullet for an Iraqi soldier, he was recommended for a silver star. Sounds about right correct? Well, he took the bullet in the gut and his award was dropped to an ARCOM with a V, then down to just a regular ARCOM. Does that sound right?

I think the real question we should be asking is not do we have too many awards, but are our awards being used for the right reasons? The reason the award was dropped so far down, was because every platoon sergeant and platoon leader were getting bronze stars, and every first sergeant and company commander were being awarded silver stars, just for being there, and they didn't want to cheapen their awards.

[coudano]

The pat on the back is called an acheivment award.

See, I just don't think so.
A pat on the back is literally, a pat on the back.  eye contact.  verbal thank you.  and a beer on me.

You can not substitute THAT with an 8.5x11 piece of paper signed by the group commander.
Performance that doesn't merit a commander's commendation probably doesn't stand out more than a REALLY good job of your assigned duties, anyway.

Frankly i'd rather have the personal thing than the paper anyway (that goes for commanders' commendations and meritorious service awards, which I am running out of space in my cardboard box to stack them all, as well, personally)



But as to your other comments I do remember being a cadet and having the constant drama of finding another ribbon rack to hold another ribbon every 2 months (which frankly sucked, especially for some of the less common ones) and balancing two ribbons on the top single bar (like putting 8 ribbons on a 7 ribbon holder).  And destroying your ribbons every 2 months because you have to slide them all around to add a new one, and sliding them on the  metal rails ripped the fabric causing them to fray.  Annoying.  And having to re-rack every time I went for a review board or something, because I have probably forgotten to add something that I received...  So yah I would be good with reducing cadet ribbons for achievements, wear only your highest milestone and no other achievements; let the rest of the ribbons be for things you have done or accomplished other than get promoted (which you already have something on your uniform to show...  your rank).

I feel roughly the same way about the senior member level ribbons.  Although your rank does not necessarily reflect your SMTP training level.  I would be fine with wearing only the ribbon for the highest level you have completed, instead of wearing them all.

[Eclipse]

The pat on the back is called an acheivment award.

No. It isn't.

[arajca]

Gee...
Didn't we have a lengthy discussion about redesigning the CAP ribbon/awards system a few months back?

[lordmonar]

The pat on the back is called an acheivment award.

See, I just don't think so.
A pat on the back is literally, a pat on the back.  eye contact.  verbal thank you.  and a beer on me.

You can not substitute THAT with an 8.5x11 piece of paper signed by the group commander.
Performance that doesn't merit a commander's commendation probably doesn't stand out more than a REALLY good job of your assigned duties, anyway.

Frankly i'd rather have the personal thing than the paper anyway (that goes for commanders' commendations and meritorious service awards, which I am running out of space in my cardboard box to stack them all, as well, personally)



But as to your other comments I do remember being a cadet and having the constant drama of finding another ribbon rack to hold another ribbon every 2 months (which frankly sucked, especially for some of the less common ones) and balancing two ribbons on the top single bar (like putting 8 ribbons on a 7 ribbon holder).  And destroying your ribbons every 2 months because you have to slide them all around to add a new one, and sliding them on the  metal rails ripped the fabric causing them to fray.  Annoying.  And having to re-rack every time I went for a review board or something, because I have probably forgotten to add something that I received...  So yah I would be good with reducing cadet ribbons for achievements, wear only your highest milestone and no other achievements; let the rest of the ribbons be for things you have done or accomplished other than get promoted (which you already have something on your uniform to show...  your rank).

I feel roughly the same way about the senior member level ribbons.  Although your rank does not necessarily reflect your SMTP training level.  I would be fine with wearing only the ribbon for the highest level you have completed, instead of wearing them all.

I think then that maybe your standard for a Commendation is too low.

YMMV.

[Larry Mangum]

Gee...
Didn't we have a lengthy discussion about redesigning the CAP ribbon/awards system a few months back?

Well you know, everything in CAPTalk eventually turns into a uniform discussion some how or another.

[Hawk200]

Gee...
Didn't we have a lengthy discussion about redesigning the CAP ribbon/awards system a few months back?

Well you know, everything in CAPTalk eventually turns into a uniform discussion some how or another.

It's far more prevalent in the "Uniforms & Awards" section. Who would have thought?

[Larry Mangum]

Duh, should have looked at the category, before posting.

[niferous]

I think recognition but all too often recognition is handed out just for doing one's job.  As to the original question, yes I think the Air Force has too many ribbons.  I recently attended my wife's graduation from AMS and commissioning service at Maxwell AFB and there were some guys walking around with something like seven or eight rows of ribbons.  I'd ask how long they had been in and it was usually six to eight years.  Sometimes a little more.  So on the long road trip back to Houston I started looking up Air Force awards on my phone just to see what the heck was going on.  I mean I was in the Army and most of our Sgt Majors and officers retired with maybe three or four rows of ribbons having served twenty five years plus. 

What I found was that the Air Force has created many awards that are not seen in other services.  I know some say that the other services display it in patches or pins but I only see that for marksmanship awards and service stripes.  Everything else was created. For instance:

Overseas ribbons: All services have one but the AF has two.

Air Force Recognition Ribbon: From what I'm told you get this if you get a certificate of achievement or something similar.   

Honor Graduate Award: In other services they just give you some kind of diploma or a challenge coin. 

Expeditionary Awards: The Navy and Marine Corps each have one but the Air Force has two!

Organizational Excellence Award:  I can't even figure out what this is for.  Other services don't seem to have an equivalent. 

So is it too many?  I think it is.  I said in another post I'm not big on all the flare and wear 'em scare 'em badges though.  When I got medals in the Army I just said "thanks" and never wore them.  My reward is a great reputation and the respect of my peers. 

[lordmonar]

The USAF Recognition Ribbon is for winning a DOD Named Awards Program........like the Sijan Mainteance Affectiveness Award etc.  Not a lot a lot of people ever get that one.

BMTS Honor Graduate Ribbon: Sure other services use other means to recognise their top performers.....but what is basically wrong with a ribbon?  Only a 2-4 people per BMTS flight can get it.

Expeditionary Awards:  True the USAF is the only service to have their own expeditionary award.
Aerospace Campaign Medal:  This is a generic campaign medal awarded for deployments to opertions that have campaign medals....but because we are a global reach organisation you were not actually in the geographic AOR.  This was created after the KOSOVO war but never awarded AFIK.

We have two overseas ribbons to make a difference between going to Germany with your wife and family for 4 years and getting sent to Thule Greenland for 13 months. 

The Organisational Excellance award is the Outstanding Unit Award for un-numbered organisation.  (only number units can earn the Outstanding Unit Award)  So when the UAV Center of Excellance does a great job the the AFOEA.

The only debate about too many ribbons that I will actively accept is that we (all services) get multiple awards for the same thing.  When I deployed to Bosnia I go the Armed Forces Service Medal, Armed Force Expiditionary medal, the Nato Medal and a Joint Service Acheivement Medal.

One was a real decoration for doing good work.
One was a forgein award
Two were "give aways" for the same thing.  (there is a long history/political story behind this stupidy).

Basically the USAF wants to reward people for doing thier job in a way that seperates them from the guy doing their job back at home station.  So they set up a system that does just that.

Does it make us look silly?  I don't think so.  It allow us to tell our story.
And just to be clear....all services do the same thing in one way or another.

[Trung Si Ma]

I think, personally, that we have too many ribbons and I only wear six of the CAP ribbons when I wear ribbons at all.  The wearing of all, some, or none, is a personal choice for seniors (and the notch of their service jacket).

I use the Crossfield as a replacement for the Yeager and believe that that is the way it should be done.  The Yeager is one of the requirements for the Crossfield (CAPP 215, page 5) so I feel that it should replace it for 215 types.

We do have a historical precedent for reducing the number of ribbons when we replaced the six WW2 ribbons with a single wartime service ribbon.

I like the idea of replacing all of the senior training ribbons with a single ribbon (the Garber looks professional) and place numbers on the ribbon in the same fashion as the Army's NCOPDR – no number for Level One, a bronze 2 for the Davis award, a bronze 3 for the Loening, etc.  Let the guys with the NCC wear a bronze 5.

I agree with those who have said combine the SAR, CD, OP ribbons with an aerial achievement ribbon, but disagree with coming up with ground and mission staff ribbons since it is at odds with reducing the number of ribbons.  How about a Mission ribbon that replaces the SAR, CD, OP, and DR ribbon that we add devices to the ribbon for your specialties?  We could keep the current solid blue SAR ribbon (award it for 25 mixed sorties) and add the bronze devices for 50 specific types of sorties and the silver devices for 100 specific sorties.  We already have the bronze propeller for aircrew and would also need it in silver.  Use the already existing arrowhead devices (bronze Vanguard # 7633400 and silver Vanguard # 7633600) for the ground side, and the already existing hourglass devices (bronze Vanguard # 7645400 and silver Vanguard # 7645402) for the mission base side.  You could keep the "V" for a presidentially declared disaster and still stay at the four devices limitation or CAPM 39-1, table 5-5, note 2.

[coudano]

BMTS Honor Graduate Ribbon: Sure other services use other means to recognise their top performers.....but what is basically wrong with a ribbon?  Only a 2-4 people per BMTS flight can get it.

A possibly unprecedented 7 people out of my BMT flight of 48 (that's 14.5%) walked away with honor grad.  Rumor was that the MTI got in trouble for not being hard enough on us...

But the section inspection, academic, and  pt records all spoke for themselves.
we also lost nobody to recycle (and only 2 to med or other processing problems)

[flyboy53]

I think recognition but all too often recognition is handed out just for doing one's job.  As to the original question, yes I think the Air Force has too many ribbons.  I recently attended my wife's graduation from AMS and commissioning service at Maxwell AFB and there were some guys walking around with something like seven or eight rows of ribbons.  I'd ask how long they had been in and it was usually six to eight years.  Sometimes a little more.  So on the long road trip back to Houston I started looking up Air Force awards on my phone just to see what the heck was going on.  I mean I was in the Army and most of our Sgt Majors and officers retired with maybe three or four rows of ribbons having served twenty five years plus. 

What I found was that the Air Force has created many awards that are not seen in other services.  I know some say that the other services display it in patches or pins but I only see that for marksmanship awards and service stripes.  Everything else was created. For instance:

Overseas ribbons: All services have one but the AF has two.

Air Force Recognition Ribbon: From what I'm told you get this if you get a certificate of achievement or something similar.   

Honor Graduate Award: In other services they just give you some kind of diploma or a challenge coin. 

Expeditionary Awards: The Navy and Marine Corps each have one but the Air Force has two!

Organizational Excellence Award:  I can't even figure out what this is for.  Other services don't seem to have an equivalent. 

So is it too many?  I think it is.  I said in another post I'm not big on all the flare and wear 'em scare 'em badges though.  When I got medals in the Army I just said "thanks" and never wore them.  My reward is a great reputation and the respect of my peers.

OK, some lessons on Air Force Awards and Decorations.

First, the Air Force Recognition Ribbon is to recognize those individulas who are recipients of Air Force or DoD-level awards. The ribbon is rare.

BMTS Honor Grad ribbon is intended to recognize excellence while at basic training. Only the two 10 percent of a graduating flight earn this ribbon. In my two decades of Air Force service, I only ever saw 10 and that includes the one earned by a member of my flight. It's not an easy award to get and there are some pretty heavy criteria. I never got one.

The reason why there are two expeditionary awards is because one is a unit award. The other isn't.

There are two overseas ribbons because one represents a short tour and probably a hardship, especially for those serving above the artic circle. The other doesn't. I wear a long-tour ribbon.

The Organizational Excellence Award is a unit award, geared specifically for un-numbered organizations. Things like the AF Outstanding Unit Award, especially with a "V" device are for numbered organizations. By the way, the Army has how many?....think two rows of them. I have both.

[niferous]

The Army has four service specific unit citations and they are seldom handed out.

On the AF Recognition Ribbon I saw a ton of folks at that event i went to with one.

You guys can defend all the flare until your blue in the face. I challenge you to start looking at members of the AF and compare them to someone from one of the other services with similar time in grade. I have yet to ever see it where the AF guys had less awards. Furthermore it has always been more.